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On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
> Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would
> speed the process? *There is obviously a tremendous
> potential demand for such a thing.
>
> Considering the size and age of the business, it seems
> unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question -
>
> --
> Rich


I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass
bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.
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In article >, aruzinsky > wrote:
>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD > wrote:
>> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>> Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would
>> speed the process? =A0There is obviously a tremendous
>> potential demand for such a thing.
>>
>> Considering the size and age of the business, it seems
>> unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question -

>
>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass
>bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
>a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
>stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.


Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps for
pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when they
like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you get.

Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under
cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too.

IME (as a consunmer only ), they are great.
I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle.




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"Bruce Sinclair" > wrote
in message ...
> In article
> >,
> aruzinsky > wrote:
>>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD > wrote:

snip

It makes me wonder how
>>stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.

>
> Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps
> for
> pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when
> they
> like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you
> get.
>
> Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under
> cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too.
>
>
> IME (as a consunmer only ), they are great.
> I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle.
>

Screw caps on bottles in Australia is now almost universal.

I find myself using a cork screw less and less - perhaps once a fortnight -
on imported bottles or on Australian wine from the early '00s.

One interesting side effect of this trend is that I've noticed lots of 2nd
hand cork screws for sale at op shops (thrift shops).

Another is that I hardly ever encounter corked wine any more - hooray! Used
to be about one in a dozen - a disgraceful and expensive blight on the wine
industry.

I can report that the only minor "off" note I've found in screw capped
bottles is an infrequent faint note of reductive sulphur on first opening.
This dissipates rapidly.

Cheers!

Martin

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On 03/04/2012 15:47, aruzinsky wrote:

> I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> "aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> sort of like that of vanilla.


If we are talking about wine, that might be ONE of the reasons for
ageing in oak. I am not sure I'd say it is the main one.

> In my experience, aging wine in glass
> bottles does nothing good


That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine
lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage. You need
to start with a decent wine of course. Cheap wines will most likely go
downhill with time in bottle - and ageing in barrel probably wouldn't
help much either!

> and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
> a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
> stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.


The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the
top of a jar (that's how it started). I tend to agree we can do better
now, but it is still a controversial subject.

--
www.winenous.co.uk
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On Apr 4, 9:26*pm, Steve Slatcher > wrote:
> ...

That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine
lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage.

Does your experience involve tasting the same batch of wine before and
after aging in glass bottles? If "yes," how did you you remember the
previous flavor so well and how do you know that your taste buds
didn't change in the time interval. If "no," exactly how do you
know?

I propose the following experiment:

1. Buy two bottles of wine of the same recently made batch.
2. Put one bottle in a good wine cellar.
3. Pour the other bottle into a suitable container and store it in
liquid nitrogen. Save the empty bottle.
4. Wait maybe 20 years.
5. Defrost the frozen wine and pour it back into the bottle.
6. Taste the two wines within a short interval of time.
7. Which tasted better?

> ...
> The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the
> top of a jar (that's how it started).
> ...


Oh, really? Pretend that you are a cave man with an IQ greater than
150 who makes wine. Which would you choose?:

1. Oily Rag
2. Cork Plug
3. Cork Plug Soaked in Melted Bee's Wax


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On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?


no not

>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla.


I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which
is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood.

In article >,
aruzinsky > wrote:
>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla.


I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which
is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. Right
not it's more closer to magic than science.

>In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if
>the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine
>will spoil. It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking
>wine bottles really is.


agreed

The plastic plugs are great.
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On Apr 6, 11:45*am, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> trolling around here.
>


"Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
From: Mike Tommasi >
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
Subject: rapid aging"

I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION
TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T
KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW
THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE,
WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.
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On Apr 7, 7:52*pm, (Joe keane) wrote:
> On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote:
>
> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?

>
> no not
>
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.

>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that.


I take the position that the main purpose is simple and the lesser
purposes are complicated. Sometimes woods other than oak are used. I
am going to guess that selective absorption and selective adsorption
are involved which are, of course, complicated. Neither, is expected
to occur in glass bottles.

>*From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood.
>
> In article >,
>
> aruzinsky > wrote:
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.

>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right
> not it's more closer to magic than science.
>
> >In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if
> >the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine
> >will spoil. *It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking
> >wine bottles really is.

>
> agreed
>
> The plastic plugs are great.


The obvious question is, "Can the deleterious effects of cork be
negated by soaking the cork in molten bee's wax?" I point out that,
for a very long, milk cartons were made of cardboard soaked in wax.
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On Apr 8, 12:26*pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > *wrote:
> >> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> >> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> >> trolling around here.

>
> > "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
> > From: Mike >
> > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
> > Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
> > Subject: rapid aging"

>
> > I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION
> > TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
> > HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T
> > KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW
> > THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
> > THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
> > MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE,
> > WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.

>
> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Agreed; you are a moron, QED.
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On Apr 7, (Joe keane) wrote:
> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?

>
> no not
>
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.

>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right
> not it's more closer to magic than science.


No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could
cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great
value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle,
and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme?

--
Rich

..



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aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > wrote:
>>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
>>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
>>>> trolling around here.
>>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
>>> From: Mike >
>>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
>>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
>>> Subject: rapid aging"
>>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION
>>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
>>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T
>>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW
>>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
>>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
>>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE,
>>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.

>> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -
>>

>
> Agreed; you are a moron, QED.


As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
at each other: "What you say is what you are".

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
*
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.
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On Apr 9, 10:49*am, Patok > wrote:
> aruzinsky wrote:
> > On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> >> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:

>
> >>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > *wrote:
> >>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> >>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> >>>> trolling around here.
> >>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
> >>> From: Mike >
> >>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
> >>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
> >>> Subject: rapid aging"
> >>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION
> >>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
> >>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T
> >>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW
> >>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
> >>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
> >>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE,
> >>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.
> >> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -

>
> > Agreed; you are a moron, QED.

>
> * *As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
> at each other: "What you say is what you are".
>
> --
> You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
> *
> Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?"
Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by
the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your
primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a
scientific explanation as I did.

Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me
of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to
have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug.
Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended).
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aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:49 am, Patok > wrote:
>> aruzinsky wrote:
>>> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>> >
>>>> As you would say, QED...

>>
>>> Agreed; you are a moron, QED.

>>
>> As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
>> at each other: "What you say is what you are".

>
> And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?"
> Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by
> the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your
> primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a
> scientific explanation as I did.


My teacher would have been a moron to explain projection to first-graders.


> Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me
> of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to
> have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug.
> Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended).


Whatever you are or not, it's your responsibility to know where what you
write goes. As they say, "ignorance is no excuse". You *did* cross post, so
Mike's accusation was not false. And if anything was verbose, it was your
unwarranted shouting, Mr non-civil engineer.

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
*
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.
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In article >, RichD > wrote:
>On Apr 7, (Joe keane) wrote:
>> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?

>> no not
>> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>> >sort of like that of vanilla.

>> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. =A0From what i know [whic=

>h
>> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
>> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. =A0Righ=

>t
>> not it's more closer to magic than science.

>
>No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could
>cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great
>value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle,
>and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme?


To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles
are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the
vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions
are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very
good thing.





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Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles
> are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the
> vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions
> are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very
> good thing.


Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are desirable.
To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins (by at least
two different pathways) leads to the reduction of astringent flavors in
red wine and a more palatable beverage for most people. The deleterious
reactions mostly involve the unwanted ingress of oxygen, though an
ongoing debate concerns whether some amount of oxygen ingress is a
positive for the wine. To the extent that they control oxygen ingress
more effectively, screwcaps are a positive development in the sealing of
wine bottles.

Mark Lipton
(a wine loving Ph. D. chemist)


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In article >, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>
>> To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles
>> are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the
>> vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions
>> are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very
>> good thing.

>
>Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are desirable.
> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins (by at least
>two different pathways) leads to the reduction of astringent flavors in
>red wine and a more palatable beverage for most people. The deleterious
>reactions mostly involve the unwanted ingress of oxygen, though an
>ongoing debate concerns whether some amount of oxygen ingress is a
>positive for the wine. To the extent that they control oxygen ingress
>more effectively, screwcaps are a positive development in the sealing of
>wine bottles.


>Mark Lipton
>(a wine loving Ph. D. chemist)




Yep ... but ... can the wine maker not allow the aging process in their
large containers to continue past what they would have before screw tops, so
that the wine they bottle is the wine they want you to have ?

My understanding is that they now do age past what they would have, and
because they know there will be very limited changes once bottled, can leave
it till they think it's ready.

I do note however, that the wine they still bottle under corks is
predominantly reds.


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z (Bruce Sinclair) writes:

> In article >, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> >
> >> To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles
> >> are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the
> >> vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions
> >> are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very
> >> good thing.

> >
> >Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are desirable.
> > To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins (by at least
> >two different pathways) leads to the reduction of astringent flavors in
> >red wine and a more palatable beverage for most people. The deleterious
> >reactions mostly involve the unwanted ingress of oxygen, though an
> >ongoing debate concerns whether some amount of oxygen ingress is a
> >positive for the wine. To the extent that they control oxygen ingress
> >more effectively, screwcaps are a positive development in the sealing of
> >wine bottles.

>
> >Mark Lipton
> >(a wine loving Ph. D. chemist)

>
>
>
> Yep ... but ... can the wine maker not allow the aging process in their
> large containers to continue past what they would have before screw tops, so
> that the wine they bottle is the wine they want you to have ?
>
> My understanding is that they now do age past what they would have, and
> because they know there will be very limited changes once bottled, can leave
> it till they think it's ready.
>
> I do note however, that the wine they still bottle under corks is
> predominantly reds.


The first question you ask assumes that the aging that takes place
before bottling has the same effect as the aging that takes place
after bottling.

It also assumes that (if the winery thinks that a certain wine peaks
after 7 years) they can afford to hold onto it for 7 years, aging it
just right, and then putting it into bottles at the perfect moment,
stopping aging at that moment. All fairly questionable.

As to your second paragraph, most wine that is sold in the world is
sold shortly after the retail establishment purchases it, and is drunk
the night the consumer purchases it. So if it gets any aging at all,
it is typically aged by the winemaker. But for that small percentage
of wine that really does get aged before drinking, I didn't know that
winemakers are aging it more on premises than they used to. I'm
interested in the source of that statement.

It does seem true that a screw cap changes what happens (mostly for
the better in my opinion), but it doesn't prevent aging in the
bottle.
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On 12/04/2012 00:26, Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> Yep ... but ... can the wine maker not allow the aging process in their
> large containers to continue past what they would have before screw tops, so
> that the wine they bottle is the wine they want you to have ?
>
> My understanding is that they now do age past what they would have, and
> because they know there will be very limited changes once bottled, can leave
> it till they think it's ready.


I don't think winemakers release screwcapped bottles later than corked
bottles. When bottles are released often has more to do with cash-flow
than anything else. Some producers hold some bottles back and then sell
them for more money, but that is in effect an investment for them, and
more usually they prefer to get the income ASAP to run the business.

Poor corks may allow more oxygen into the bottle than screwcaps, and
corks do have other effects like sometimes adding bad flavours, or
removing flavours. But screwcaps still do allow in some oxygen, and
there are many other changes that take place in-bottle in the absence of
oxygen.

Also bear in mind also that different people want different things.
Some like young wines, some very old.

> I do note however, that the wine they still bottle under corks is
> predominantly reds.


That is true, but a lot of reds are put under screwcap too, particularly
in Australia and New Zealand.

--
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Default rapid aging

On Apr 11, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> >To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions
> >that occur in bottles are considered 'bad'. That's why
> >many/most winemakers are now putting the
> >vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The
> >'bad' reactionsare reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to.

>
> Not at all. *Many reactions that take place in the bottle are
> desirable.
> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins
> (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction
> of astringent flavors in red wine


Elaborate please.
We're talking anaerobic, right?

> and a more palatable beverage for most people.


It puzzles me, why do people drink young
astringent wine? That's why I drink mostly white,
they're less tannic.

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On 12/04/2012 19:56, RichD wrote:
> On Apr 11, Mark > wrote:
>>
>> Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are
>> desirable.
>> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins
>> (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction
>> of astringent flavors in red wine

>
> Elaborate please.
> We're talking anaerobic, right?


Yes, anaerobic. It is also called reductive (as opposed to the
oxidative ageing that takes place in the presence of oxygen). See
http://www.wineanorak.com/tannins.htm
Especially the paragraph about 2/3 down.

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On 4/12/12 2:56 PM, RichD wrote:
> On Apr 11, Mark Lipton > wrote:


>> Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are
>> desirable.
>> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins
>> (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction
>> of astringent flavors in red wine

>
> Elaborate please.
> We're talking anaerobic, right?


Both aerobic and anaerobic cross-linking of tannins is possible. The
aerobic pathway probably involves the intermediacy of phenolic radicals,
produced from the reactions of phenols with triplet oxygen, undergoing
something akin to Wurtz coupling, possibly aided by transition metals
such as copper should they be present in the wine in catalytic quantities.

The anaerobic pathways involves the condensation of acetaldehyde, an
oxidation product of the alcohol in the wine, with two phenolic
molecules to produce a methylene-crosslinked biphenol. That's just
basic electrophilic aromatic substitution, a reaction that every student
in sophomore organic learns.

>
>> and a more palatable beverage for most people.

>
> It puzzles me, why do people drink young
> astringent wine? That's why I drink mostly white,
> they're less tannic.


Some people like a bit of bitterness in their wines. Others drink their
wines while eating red meat and the fats in the meat mask the tannins of
the wine. Some others have little choice: if you want to order a red
wine in a restaurant, you're limited to the (usually very young) red
wines present on their wine list. It's the rare restaurant that can
afford to cellar red wines as long as is needed to resolve their tannins.

Mark Lipton


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