I attended a very interesting dinner tasting recently put on by Albert
Givton, who has been the source of so many fascinating wine
experiences.

We started with a couple of fine white Burgundies (all wines tasted
blind)).

2000 Ramonet Chassagne Montrachet 1er cru Morgeot – nice vanilla and
lemon nose, excellent fruit on palate, and good length. Enjoyable
wine.

2000 Ramonet Chassagne Montrachet 1er cru Les Caillerets – a slightly
heavier, oakier nose with more mineral, sweeter entry, and a long lush
finish.

Served with seafood terrine with celeriac remoulade and crispy capers
(sounds like a saucy film, doesn’t it?)

1980 Chave Hermitage – a couple of wines that might be iffy from most
cellars but with much better chance coming out of Albert’s very cool
cellar. This wine was never much good – bad vintage and all of the
other Hermitage from the vintage that I have tasted were a waste of a
good bottle. Except for this, which tells us that there is excellent
winemaking technique at work when you can make a palatable wine from a
dud year. I didn’t hold out much hope and was very pleasantly
surprised. It was a decent elegant wine and presented almost like an
aged Burgundy. I’ve seen similar good results from Chave in 1987,
another weaker vintage.

1979 Chave Hermitage – better vintage and so I had greater
expectations. Another elegant wine with a bigger and pepperier nose
and slightly low fruit levels. Still showing some tannins, this wine
was very decent.

We then mo0ved into red Burgundy with a quail stuffed with pork belly
and a pancetta green onion terrine – some big flavours.

1988 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges Les Chaignots – a sweet
slightly candied Pinot nose, medium bodied wine with acidity a tad
high, average length

1988 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges Les Pruliers – similar nose,
with a little bit of barnyard mustiness, a slightly oily mouth feel,
more tannins and finishing shorter. I’d say this was a perfect example
of the difficulty with the vintage. The wines were generally quite
tannic so it meant long hold times, very similar to what happened with
the 1975 Bordeaux. The problem is that cabernet deals much better with
retaining fruit in the tannic examples than Pinot does. This wine is
an example of the leaner less successful style, while the Chaignots
fared a little better.

We moved on to more 1988 Burgundy with beef tenderloin (or lamb chops
is you so chose).

1988 Dom. Lamarche Vosne Romanee La Grande Rue (not made a grand cru
until later) – a nice cherry nose on this one, sweet entry followed by
good fruit levels, some tannin, and a pleasant sweet finish. A winner.

1988 Rousseau Rouchottes Chambertin Clos des Ruchottes (grand cru) – a
similar fruit driven nose, but weightier and more serious, and a nice
smooth entry. Supple wine on palate with significantly more complexity
than the Lamarche wine. very good.

We then did a few other interesting wines.

1977 Beaulieu Vineyards Cabernet – this wasn’t the Georges de Latour,
but rather than normal cab, probably worth $5 at the time, and it had
survived amazingly well, given that it wasn’t from Albert’s cellar.
Big sweet nose, dark colour with a clear rim; both told us we had
moved to a new continent. Moccha vanilla nose, balanced, clean and
long. Amazingly good considering this was a grocery store wine, most
of it being no doubt drunk up the day it was purchased!

1986 Ch. Mouton Rothschild – people were all over on this one and out
of 12 people, only I was saying I thought it was even French, and I
was being challenged on that. Medium weight, sweet fruit nose,
balanced and with lots of tannin remaining, excellent length, but with
none of the usual clues that would point this group of expert tasters
to France, much less Bordeaux. WTF? Anyone else getting this sort of
odd results with this wine?

1999 Signorello Padrone – this wine was contributed by Ray Signorello,
who had also kindly donated the Mouton. It is their top wine, made
from a blend of cab, cab franc and merlot. Darker than the Mouton, big
nose of smoky cassis and mushroom with a decent aliquot of wood added.
Excellent fruit concentration on palate (they crop at only about 1.25
tons per acre) and good length. Nice wine for the end of the meal.

1978 Quady Lot #2 – these old Zinfandel Ports are wonderful wines and
it was a coincidence that I had bought both this and the Lot #1 years
ago when I was down racing in California. My bottles were drunk up
long ago but it was nice to taste this again. It would probably have
been well over the hill by now from a normal cellar. It retains good
colour, nice fruit in the nose, not too hot, but the heat came in on
the finish with some good fruit in between. Pleasant wine with cheese.

1978 Quinta do Noval Nacional – an even rarer wine made from grapes
grown in a prephylloxera vineyard in very small amounts. Paler in
colour, browner in colour, and a sweeter nose, very sweet in the mouth
– this would vie with any Grahams, and with a very long finish. Good
wine, although I have to wonder why they declared it. A rare wine
you don’t get to taste every day!!

Absinthe – this bottle was Portuguese from around 1934 before that
country banned production. You hear about Absinthe being a bit like
Pernod, but it isn’t true. Pernod in modern form is mostly an
anisette liqueur, while Absinthe is much more herbal. In fact the nose
on this was a bit bizarre – Kiwi boot polish with underlying hints of
fennel and other herbal aromas. It doesn’t go milky like Pernod does,
and the licorice and herbs were also on palate. It wouldn’t be my
drink of choice, but it was an interesting experience to taste it.
None of the participants demonstrated any behaviour that was more
bizarre or mad than they normally do, so I guess you’d need to keep up
an intake over some time to attain the levels of wormwood dementia
alleged to occur from this beverage.

On Feb 4, 2:06*pm, "Bill S." > wrote:
> I attended a very interesting dinner tasting recently put on by Albert
> Givton, who has been the source of so many fascinating wine
> experiences.
>
> We started with a couple of fine white Burgundies (all wines tasted
> blind)).
>
> 2000 Ramonet Chassagne Montrachet 1er cru *Morgeot – nice vanilla and
> lemon nose, excellent fruit on palate, and good length. Enjoyable
> wine.
>
> 2000 Ramonet Chassagne Montrachet 1er cru Les Caillerets – a slightly
> heavier, oakier nose with more mineral, sweeter entry, and a long lush
> finish.
>
> Served with seafood terrine with celeriac remoulade and crispy capers
> (sounds like a saucy film, doesn’t it?)
>
> 1980 Chave Hermitage – a couple of wines that might be iffy from most
> cellars but with much better chance coming out of Albert’s very cool
> cellar. *This wine was never much good – bad vintage and all of the
> other Hermitage from the vintage that I have tasted were a waste of a
> good bottle. *Except for this, which tells us that there is excellent
> winemaking technique at work when you can make a palatable wine from a
> dud year. I didn’t hold out much hope and was very pleasantly
> surprised. It was a decent elegant wine and presented almost like an
> aged Burgundy. *I’ve seen similar good results from Chave in 1987,
> another weaker vintage.
>
> 1979 Chave Hermitage – better vintage and so I had greater
> expectations. Another elegant wine with a bigger and pepperier nose
> and slightly low fruit levels. Still showing some tannins, this wine
> was very decent.
>
> We then mo0ved into red Burgundy with a quail stuffed with pork belly
> and a pancetta green onion terrine – some big flavours.
>
> 1988 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges Les Chaignots – a sweet
> slightly candied Pinot nose, medium bodied wine with acidity a tad
> high, average length
>
> 1988 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges Les Pruliers – similar nose,
> with a little bit of barnyard mustiness, a slightly oily mouth feel,
> more tannins and finishing shorter. I’d say this was a perfect example
> of the difficulty with the vintage. The wines were generally quite
> tannic so it meant long hold times, very similar to what happened with
> the 1975 Bordeaux. The problem is that cabernet deals much better with
> retaining fruit in the tannic examples than Pinot does. This wine is
> an example of the leaner less successful style, while the Chaignots
> fared a little better.
>
> We moved on to more 1988 Burgundy with beef tenderloin (or lamb chops
> is you so chose).
>
> 1988 Dom. Lamarche Vosne Romanee La Grande Rue (not made a grand cru
> until later) – a nice cherry nose on this one, sweet entry followed by
> good fruit levels, some tannin, and a pleasant sweet finish. A winner.
>
> 1988 Rousseau Rouchottes Chambertin Clos des Ruchottes (grand cru) – a
> similar fruit driven nose, but weightier and more serious, and a nice
> smooth entry. Supple wine on palate with significantly more complexity
> than the Lamarche wine. *very good.
>
> We then did a few other interesting wines.
>
> 1977 Beaulieu Vineyards Cabernet – this wasn’t the Georges de Latour,
> but rather than normal cab, probably worth $5 at the time, and it had
> survived amazingly well, given that it wasn’t from Albert’s cellar.
> Big sweet nose, dark colour with a clear rim; both told us we had
> moved to a new continent. Moccha vanilla nose, balanced, clean and
> long. Amazingly good considering this was a grocery store wine, most
> of it being no doubt drunk up the day it was purchased!
>
> 1986 Ch. Mouton Rothschild – people were all over on this one and out
> of 12 people, only I was saying I thought it was even French, and I
> was being challenged on that. Medium weight, sweet fruit nose,
> balanced and with lots of tannin remaining, excellent length, but with
> none of the usual clues that would point this group of expert tasters
> to France, much less Bordeaux. *WTF? *Anyone else getting this sort of
> odd results with this wine?
>
> 1999 Signorello Padrone – this wine was contributed by Ray Signorello,
> who had also kindly donated the Mouton. It is their top wine, *made
> from a blend of cab, cab franc and merlot. Darker than the Mouton, big
> nose of smoky cassis and mushroom with a decent aliquot of wood added.
> Excellent fruit concentration on palate (they crop at only about 1.25
> tons per acre) and good length. *Nice wine for the end of the meal.
>
> 1978 Quady Lot #2 – these old Zinfandel Ports are wonderful wines and
> it was a coincidence that I had bought both this and the Lot #1 years
> ago when I was down racing in California. *My bottles were drunk up
> long ago but it was nice to taste this again. It would probably have
> been well over the hill by now from a normal cellar. It retains good
> colour, nice fruit in the nose, not too hot, but the heat came in on
> the finish with some good fruit in between. Pleasant wine with cheese.
>
> 1978 Quinta do Noval Nacional – an even rarer wine made from grapes
> grown in a prephylloxera vineyard in very small amounts. Paler in
> colour, browner in colour, and a sweeter nose, very sweet in the mouth
> – this would vie with any Grahams, and with a very long finish. *Good
> wine, although I have to wonder why they declared it. *A rare wine
> you don’t get to taste every day!!
>
> Absinthe – this bottle was Portuguese from around 1934 before that
> country banned production. *You hear about Absinthe being a bit like
> Pernod, but it isn’t true. *Pernod in modern form is mostly an
> anisette liqueur, while Absinthe is much more herbal. In fact the nose
> on this was a bit bizarre – Kiwi boot polish with underlying hints of
> fennel and other herbal aromas. It doesn’t go milky like Pernod does,
> and the licorice and herbs were also on palate. *It wouldn’t be my
> drink of choice, but it was an interesting experience to taste it.
> None of the participants demonstrated any behaviour that was more
> bizarre or mad than they normally do, so I guess you’d need to keep up
> an intake over some time to attain the levels of wormwood dementia
> alleged to occur from this beverage.

As usual terrific notes. Interesting take on the white burgs as I
usually find Ramonet to be full of smoke and matchstick. Were these
opened for a while before tasting? Love the red burg notes and I have
found the 1986 Mouton to be a difficult wine to love having a certain
toughness to it.

On Feb 4, 1:06*pm, "Bill S." > wrote:
> I attended a very interesting dinner tasting recently put on by Albert
> Givton, who has been the source of so many fascinating wine
> experiences.

> Absinthe – this bottle was Portuguese from around 1934 before that
> country banned production. *You hear about Absinthe being a bit like
> Pernod, but it isn’t true. *Pernod in modern form is mostly an
> anisette liqueur, while Absinthe is much more herbal. In fact the nose
> on this was a bit bizarre – Kiwi boot polish with underlying hints of
> fennel and other herbal aromas. It doesn’t go milky like Pernod does,
> and the licorice and herbs were also on palate. *It wouldn’t be my
> drink of choice, but it was an interesting experience to taste it.
> None of the participants demonstrated any behaviour that was more
> bizarre or mad than they normally do, so I guess you’d need to keep up
> an intake over some time to attain the levels of wormwood dementia
> alleged to occur from this beverage

I am not sure about Canada, but absinthe is now quite legal in the US
with domestic and imported brands being available. The bad reputation
for absinthe that got it banned in many countries in the early 1900s,
at least for quality brands, was likely mainly due to the very high
alcohol content, as high as about 75%. In heavy usage, the alcohol
alone is enough to give quite a few toxic effects. Moreover, wormwood
used in low alcohol drinks, such as vermouth, does not seem to produce
toxic effects in reasonable usage. Although there are some compounds
in wormwood that are toxic in a large enough amount, most of these do
not get in finished absinthe because it is distilled after soaking the
herbs and spices in alcohol, much as is eau de vie. Some additional
herbs and spices may then be added to adjust flavor, color, etc.
Absinthe that is made without this distillation step is likely to be
far too bitter to be liked by many. Analysis of some of the top pre-
ban absinthe from France and Switzerland indicates that they do not
have an excessive amount of toxic compounds and that the absinthe is
not extremely bitter. The louche (cloudy character when water is
added) is very typical of absinthe and the intensity, color etc of it
is one thing that is judged in absinthe tastings. Why you did not see
this puzzles me. Perhaps the old absinthe had changed with time and
the oily compounds extracted from anise and other seeds by alcohol had
been reduced in quantity on long storage. Or perhaps this was not a
typical absinthe to begin with. To produce the best loche, you need
to first put the chilled absinthe in a very cold absinthe glass and
slowly drip in ice water. Many also use a small cube or lump of sugar
held on an absinthe spoon with holes that is placed on the top of the
glass. Then the ice water is very slowly dripped over the sugar. This
can be done by hand, but it is far more convenient to use an absinthe
fountain. This device is a container for the ice and water with
multiple spigots, each with a valve that can be adjusted for a very
slow drip. For more information about both modern and pre-ban
absinthe, see www.wormwoodsociety.org .

The Absinthe was prepared with cold water dripped over sugar, although
I demurred as I do not like sweet liqueurs and simply added an aliquot
of cold water to mine. No idea why it didn't go milky.

On Feb 4, 3:07*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 1:06*pm, "Bill S." > wrote:
>
> > I attended a very interesting dinner tasting recently put on by Albert
> > Givton, who has been the source of so many fascinating wine
> > experiences.
> > Absinthe – this bottle was Portuguese from around 1934 before that
> > country banned production. *You hear about Absinthe being a bit like
> > Pernod, but it isn’t true. *Pernod in modern form is mostly an
> > anisette liqueur, while Absinthe is much more herbal. In fact the nose
> > on this was a bit bizarre – Kiwi boot polish with underlying hints of
> > fennel and other herbal aromas. It doesn’t go milky like Pernod does,
> > and the licorice and herbs were also on palate. *It wouldn’t be my
> > drink of choice, but it was an interesting experience to taste it.
> > None of the participants demonstrated any behaviour that was more
> > bizarre or mad than they normally do, so I guess you’d need to keep up
> > an intake over some time to attain the levels of wormwood dementia
> > alleged to occur from this beverage
>
> I am not sure about Canada, but absinthe is now quite legal in the US
> with domestic and imported brands being available. The bad reputation
> for absinthe that got it banned in many countries in the early 1900s,
> at least for quality brands, was likely mainly due to the very high
> alcohol content, as high as about 75%. In heavy usage, the alcohol
> alone is enough to give quite a few toxic effects. Moreover, wormwood
> used in low alcohol drinks, such as vermouth, does not seem to produce
> toxic effects in reasonable usage. *Although there are some compounds
> in wormwood that are toxic in a large enough amount, most of these do
> not get in finished absinthe because it is distilled after soaking the
> herbs and spices in alcohol, much as is eau de vie. Some additional
> herbs and spices may then be added to adjust flavor, color, etc.
> Absinthe that is made without this distillation step is likely to be
> far too bitter to be liked by many. Analysis of some of the top pre-
> ban absinthe from France and Switzerland indicates that they do not
> have an excessive amount of toxic compounds and that the absinthe is
> not extremely bitter. The louche (cloudy character when water is
> added) is very typical of absinthe and the intensity, color *etc of it
> is one thing that is judged in absinthe tastings. Why you did not see
> this puzzles me. Perhaps the old absinthe had changed with time and
> the oily compounds extracted from anise and other seeds by alcohol had
> been reduced in quantity on long storage. Or perhaps this was not a
> typical absinthe to begin with. To produce the best *loche, you need
> to first put the chilled absinthe in a very cold absinthe glass and
> slowly drip in ice water. Many also use a small cube or lump of sugar
> held on an absinthe spoon with holes that is placed on the top of the
> glass. Then the ice water is very slowly dripped over the sugar. This
> can be done by hand, but it is far more convenient to use an absinthe
> fountain. This device is a container for the ice and water with
> multiple spigots, each with a valve that can be adjusted for a very
> slow drip. For more information about both modern and pre-ban
> absinthe, see www.wormwoodsociety.org.

The link given is not working for me. Try http:www.wormwoodsociety.org
instead.

On Feb 4, 3:17*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Feb 4, 3:07*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 1:06*pm, "Bill S." > wrote:
>
> > > I attended a very interesting dinner tasting recently put on by Albert
> > > Givton, who has been the source of so many fascinating wine
> > > experiences.
> > > Absinthe – this bottle was Portuguese from around 1934 before that
> > > country banned production. *You hear about Absinthe being a bit like
> > > Pernod, but it isn’t true. *Pernod in modern form is mostly an
> > > anisette liqueur, while Absinthe is much more herbal. In fact the nose
> > > on this was a bit bizarre – Kiwi boot polish with underlying hints of
> > > fennel and other herbal aromas. It doesn’t go milky like Pernod does,
> > > and the licorice and herbs were also on palate. *It wouldn’t be my
> > > drink of choice, but it was an interesting experience to taste it.
> > > None of the participants demonstrated any behaviour that was more
> > > bizarre or mad than they normally do, so I guess you’d need to keep up
> > > an intake over some time to attain the levels of wormwood dementia
> > > alleged to occur from this beverage
>
> > I am not sure about Canada, but absinthe is now quite legal in the US
> > with domestic and imported brands being available. The bad reputation
> > for absinthe that got it banned in many countries in the early 1900s,
> > at least for quality brands, was likely mainly due to the very high
> > alcohol content, as high as about 75%. In heavy usage, the alcohol
> > alone is enough to give quite a few toxic effects. Moreover, wormwood
> > used in low alcohol drinks, such as vermouth, does not seem to produce
> > toxic effects in reasonable usage. *Although there are some compounds
> > in wormwood that are toxic in a large enough amount, most of these do
> > not get in finished absinthe because it is distilled after soaking the
> > herbs and spices in alcohol, much as is eau de vie. Some additional
> > herbs and spices may then be added to adjust flavor, color, etc.
> > Absinthe that is made without this distillation step is likely to be
> > far too bitter to be liked by many. Analysis of some of the top pre-
> > ban absinthe from France and Switzerland indicates that they do not
> > have an excessive amount of toxic compounds and that the absinthe is
> > not extremely bitter. The louche (cloudy character when water is
> > added) is very typical of absinthe and the intensity, color *etc of it
> > is one thing that is judged in absinthe tastings. Why you did not see
> > this puzzles me. Perhaps the old absinthe had changed with time and
> > the oily compounds extracted from anise and other seeds by alcohol had
> > been reduced in quantity on long storage. Or perhaps this was not a
> > typical absinthe to begin with. To produce the best *loche, you need
> > to first put the chilled absinthe in a very cold absinthe glass and
> > slowly drip in ice water. Many also use a small cube or lump of sugar
> > held on an absinthe spoon with holes that is placed on the top of the
> > glass. Then the ice water is very slowly dripped over the sugar. This
> > can be done by hand, but it is far more convenient to use an absinthe
> > fountain. This device is a container for the ice and water with
> > multiple spigots, each with a valve that can be adjusted for a very
> > slow drip. For more information about both modern and pre-ban
> > absinthe, seewww.wormwoodsociety.org.
>
> The link given is not working for me. Try http:www.wormwoodsociety.org
> instead.

I will try again pasting in the link that does connect. If this does
not work, something must be acting up in the post process.

See http://www.wormwoodsociety.org for the link.

On 2/4/11 4:27 PM, cwdjrxyz wrote:

> I will try again pasting in the link that does connect. If this does
> not work, something must be acting up in the post process.
>
> See http://www.wormwoodsociety.org for the link.

While the wormwood society webpage is quite informative, they have their
own editorial slant that former afw participant Max Hauser objected to
for various reasons. I have no dog in that race, but merely wish to
point out that it shouldn't be taken as an unimpeachable source of
information.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Feb 4, 4:10*pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> On 2/4/11 4:27 PM, cwdjrxyz wrote:
>
> > I will try again pasting in the link that does connect. If this does
> > not work, something must be acting up in the post process.
>
> > Seehttp://www.wormwoodsociety.orgfor the link.
>
> While the wormwood society webpage is quite informative, they have their
> own editorial slant that former afw participant Max Hauser objected to
> for various reasons. *I have no dog in that race, but merely wish to
> point out that it shouldn't be taken as an unimpeachable source of
> information.

I remember Max Hauser, and wonder why he does not post here any more.
Max had strong opinions on many things. The wormwood society is a good
place to start, but as for wine, Scotch, Cognac etc there are many,
often strong, opinions by various people, so you should always search
out several references if you have a serious interest in a topic.
Rating the quality of various absinthe brands is likely to stir up as
much controversy as rating the quality of wine, for example.

Of course there were many who abused absinthe in Europe in the late
1800s and early 1900s, and the fact that many abusers were far removed
from the main stream of society did not help. But abuse of absinthe
likely was less than the abuse of cheap, poor gin in England at an
earlier time. The illustrations of gin abuse by Hogarth paint a very
sordid picture of this era in England.

Absinthe has been available in the US for only a few yearsand was
unavailable for many decades. Since the ATF and FDA people had limits
for some somewhat toxic compounds found in wormword and many other
natural products, absinthe was allowed that did not exceed these
limits. In fact few quality absinthes, either pro-ban or present,
would be banned in the US now. Some poor, low cost, absinthes around
the world made by extraction without distillation might exceed the
limits.

Since anise is not one of my favorite tastes, I only drink a bit of
absinthe, anisette, etc from time to time.