"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones thanyoung wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making mature wines muchfriendlier to a varied menu."
 

Agree? Disagree?:

http://www.midweek.com/content/colum...icagos_alinea/

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones than young
wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making mature wines much
friendlier to a varied menu."

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones than young wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making mature wines much friendlier to a varied menu."
 

Mike wrote on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:13:58 +0100:

> On 04/11/2010 7:59, aesthete8 wrote:
>> Agree? Disagree?:
>>
>> http://www.midweek.com/content/colum...icagos_alinea/
>>
>> "I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones
>> than young wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making
>> mature wines much friendlier to a varied menu."

> Nils and I shared a 94 Yquem over monday lunch. I would not
> call it savory, despite its maturity. The roebuck fillets that
> we had in the previous course, maybe those were savory yes.

Possibly, this discussion might be better in alt.usage.english :-) I
suspect "tasty" might have been meant when "savory" was used. Yes, to me
also, "savory" conveys the impression of a flavorful, non-sweet dish.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones thanyoung wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making mature wines muchfriendlier to a varied menu."
 

On 11/4/10 10:43 AM, Mike Tommasi wrote:

> Did not mean to be pedantic... :-)
>
> Mature wines are not tastier, they taste different. I did not read the
> article to see what was meant by savory...

I believe that the usage of savory was in the sense of "not as sweet"
and I would agree with that statement. In the case of dry wines, as
they lose their primary (fruit-based) character they gain in return
tertiary (mushroom, earth, leather) characteristics. In the case of
sweet wines, they become less sweet with long age as the glucose becomes
esterified with acetic acid, so they too become marginally more savory.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones..."
 

"Mark Lipton" wrote ......
> On 11/4/10 10:43 AM, Mike Tommasi wrote:
>
>> Mature wines are not tastier, they taste different. I did not read the
>> article to see what was meant by savory...
>
> I believe that the usage of savory was in the sense of "not as sweet"
> and I would agree with that statement. In the case of dry wines, as
> they lose their primary (fruit-based) character they gain in return
> tertiary (mushroom, earth, leather) characteristics. In the case of
> sweet wines, they become less sweet with long age as the glucose becomes
> esterified with acetic acid, so they too become marginally more savory.
>

Mark, I tend to disagree with your first sentence - having read and re-read
the article, I think your assertion that the word "savory" relates somehow
to "lack of sweetness" is not in context with the original article.

I tend to think of the word savory (or is that savoury ;-) as being much
closer to its more literal meaning - i.e. piquant; aromatic; delicately
herbal, and I think that this was what the author was trying to convey -
and nothing to do with a lack of apparent sweetness.

But please, can you do me a favour (or is that favor!) - can you take Jean
and scoot up to Chicago and go to Alinea and check it out first hand.

It seems very interesting.

Cheers

AB

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones..."
 

On 11/4/10 4:48 PM, st.helier wrote:
> "Mark Lipton" wrote ......
>> On 11/4/10 10:43 AM, Mike Tommasi wrote:
>>
>>> Mature wines are not tastier, they taste different. I did not read the
>>> article to see what was meant by savory...
>>
>> I believe that the usage of savory was in the sense of "not as sweet"
>> and I would agree with that statement. In the case of dry wines, as
>> they lose their primary (fruit-based) character they gain in return
>> tertiary (mushroom, earth, leather) characteristics. In the case of
>> sweet wines, they become less sweet with long age as the glucose becomes
>> esterified with acetic acid, so they too become marginally more savory.
>>
>
> Mark, I tend to disagree with your first sentence - having read and
> re-read the article, I think your assertion that the word "savory"
> relates somehow to "lack of sweetness" is not in context with the
> original article.
>
> I tend to think of the word savory (or is that savoury ;-) as being much
> closer to its more literal meaning - i.e. piquant; aromatic; delicately
> herbal, and I think that this was what the author was trying to convey
> - and nothing to do with a lack of apparent sweetness.
>
> But please, can you do me a favour (or is that favor!) - can you take
> Jean and scoot up to Chicago and go to Alinea and check it out first hand.

Milud,
I believe that we are in essential agreement. The sense of savory as
herbal or aromatic rather than tasty is what I was getting at. Savory
flavors are, as a rule, not sweet, so savory can be placed in opposition
to sweetness, even though it is not explicitly not sweet.

As for Alinea, we are unlikely to go there as Jean is not taken with
playful cuisine a la the molecular gastronomy crowd. (She did indulge
me last year for my 50th by going with me to El Celler de Can Roca in
Spain, but don't expect another such display of largesse any time soon)
However, we have plans to go to Grant Achatz's new restaurant, soon to
open: Next, which has a very different ethic.

On a separate note, we are beginning to consider our next sabbatical
leave in Spring 2012 and Jean's talking about Univ. of Cantebury! Stay
tuned...

Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones..."
 

Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:14:54 -0400:

> On 11/4/10 4:48 PM, st.helier wrote:
>> "Mark Lipton" wrote ......
>>> On 11/4/10 10:43 AM, Mike Tommasi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mature wines are not tastier, they taste different. I did
>>>> not read the article to see what was meant by savory...
>>>
>>> I believe that the usage of savory was in the sense of "not
>>> as sweet" and I would agree with that statement. In the
>>> case of dry wines, as they lose their primary (fruit-based)
>>> character they gain in return tertiary (mushroom, earth,
>>> leather) characteristics. In the case of sweet wines, they
>>> become less sweet with long age as the glucose
>>> becomes esterified with acetic acid, so they too become
>>> marginally more savory.
>>>
>> Mark, I tend to disagree with your first sentence - having
>> read and re-read the article, I think your assertion that the
>> word "savory" relates somehow to "lack of sweetness" is not
>> in context with the original article.
>>
>> I tend to think of the word savory (or is that savoury ;-) as
>> being much closer to its more literal meaning - i.e. piquant;
>> aromatic; delicately herbal, and I think that this was what
>> the author was trying to convey - and nothing to do with a
>> lack of apparent sweetness.
>>
>> But please, can you do me a favour (or is that favor!) -
>> can you take Jean and scoot up to Chicago and go to Alinea
>> and check it out first hand.

> Milud,
> I believe that we are in essential agreement. The sense of
> savory as herbal or aromatic rather than tasty is what I was
> getting at. Savory flavors are, as a rule, not sweet, so
> savory can be placed in opposition to sweetness, even though
> it is not explicitly not sweet.

> As for Alinea, we are unlikely to go there as Jean is not
> taken with playful cuisine a la the molecular gastronomy
> crowd. (She did indulge me last year for my 50th by going
> with me to El Celler de Can Roca in Spain, but don't expect
> another such display of largesse any time soon)However, we
> have plans to go to Grant Achatz's new restaurant, soon to
> open: Next, which has a very different ethic.

> On a separate note, we are beginning to consider our next
> sabbatical leave in Spring 2012 and Jean's talking about Univ.
> of Cantebury! Stay tuned...

These are some items in the online Oxford English Dictionary on
"savoury" and I guess the word might well be acceptable even in the
context of sweet foods but I don't think my personal usage would be
applicable to sweets..

A. adj.

1. Pleasing to the taste; appetizing; agreeable.
b. Gratifying to the sense of smell; fragrant.
Now rare exc. in negative context: cf. unsavoury.

2. fig. a. Pleasant; acceptable.

3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles
of food having a stimulating taste or flavour.



--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones..."
 

"Mark Lipton" wrote .....
>
> On a separate note, we are beginning to consider our next sabbatical
> leave in Spring 2012 and Jean's talking about Univ. of Cantebury! Stay
> tuned...
>

Now let me see - Spring (to you) is March/April 2012 - right?

This is a sensational time of the year to visit Canterbury (you may remember
your very VERY brief to Christchurch)

Only four hours drive through some very beautiful (and almost deserted)
country and you are in Central Otago - in Autumn, a host of yellows and
golds and lakes and mountains and vineyards!

I promise that most of the earthquake damage will be cleared and repaired
(yes, the University was affected) - and the aftershocks may have subsided.

Of course, being a Ca boy, you will feel right at home on shaky grounds.

You do realise that, with a little bit of persuasion, I "might" be available
to act as chauffeur for a few days - accustomed as I am to driving on the
correct side of the road.

Cheers

AB