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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
Four friends joined me last night for the Two Year Somewhat Poor
Storage test. We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on WLDG (including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run the AC at night , etc. For the tasting, I furnished pairs of glasses to everyone. We had different styles, but everyone had matched pairs to eliminate that variation (in conversation I had Al sniff my Chardonnays- he agreed the difference between my Burg glass and his Bordeaux stem was bigger than difference between the differently stored bottles) Before we got to my bottles, we tried 2 Chardonnays that Ned had brought, he had independently been running a similar experiment for one of his classes. For the last 9 months one bottle had been in a 58 degree home cave, the other had been in a garage. He figured low was about 50 (unheated, but hot water pipes run through) and high about 90. 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #1 I thought I got a little VA from this at first, but whatever it was blew off. Pears and tropical fruit, lots of oak, not particularly buttery. A little disjointed. B- 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #2 Slightly leaner, similar overall though I though more pear and less tropical, and a little butter. B- A couple of people thought #2 was much better, and voted for #1 as bad storage bottle. I voted no preference, but also #1 as bad storage. Ned checked for his mark- #2 was the garage bottle! Ned then started wondering if he mismarked (and convinced himself), but I'll assume his pre-tasting marking was better than our tasting abilities and prejudices! OK, on to my reds. 3 pairs. I had wrapped as identically as possible, asked Ron as first arrival to randomly rotate, asked next arrival to number pairs randomly. Cellared bottles: I have a passive cellar. These were stored at floor level on sides. My cellar at eye level (where I have thermometer) ranges from about 49-50 degrees F in early Feb to about 66-68 in late August/early Sept. All changes are very slow and gradual. Kitchen bottles : Last 2 years they have been upright. In winter we keep our house quite cool- 58 at night, 65 during day. Kitchen might be warmer with a lot of cooking. We have a small frame house, fairly shaded. We don't have central AC, but do put a window unit in adjacent living room in summer. It's a large unit and cools entire first floor (only about 550 sq ft). I'd say kitchen temps range from 70-80 F in summer. I did remove bottles a couple of times when I thought temps would be above 85- when cleaning oven in summer, and when away for a week with no AC going in July. Earlier in week I removed kitchen bottles to cellar to ensure all pairs were served in identical conditions. All bottles had good fills and no visible defects, except one kitchen bottle (the Brun) had a dry/ brittle feeling label coming loose in one corner. All bottles opened about half hour before guests arrived, no visible issues. First Round- 2006 La Vieille Ferme (Cotes du Ventoux) screwcap 2006 La Vieille Ferme #1 On first tasting I was sure this was the kitchen bottle, there was a slight roasted/stewed note to the fruit. But that seemed to dissipate with time. Round, ripe. But pretty dead and lifeless on finish. C+/C 2006 La Vieille Ferme #2 Fresher fruit, balanced, not very exciting but a pretty competent CdR lookalike. B- 4-1 that #1 was kitchen bottle, but one person thought they still preferred it though they agreed it was the poor storage. And the kitchen bottles was....#1 Second Round- 2006 Terres Dorees (JP Brun) "L'Ancien" Beaujolais VV 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #1 A little bretty note, not bad, good acids, red fruits. Not bad. B- 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #2 Good, still some tannins, good acidity, good cranberry and dark berry fruit. B/B+ I think one person thought #2 was kitchen bottle. The kitchen bottle was #1 Third Round - 2004 Picque Caillou (Pessac-Leognan) real cork 2004 Picque Caillou #1 Open, aromatic, red plums, good acidity, a bit clipped. B- 2004 Picque Caillou #2 Nice, structured, classic Graves with some time ahead. Darker fruits, a little cedar and tobacco. B+/B OK, one person said he just hated both. 2 people agreed #1 was poorer storage, but liked it as fruitier. 2 people preferred #2. Once again, kitchen bottle was #1 OK, so just some data points. The nine month bottles were to me the most identical (even if temp extremes were a bit greater). I think the reds showed more advancement from warm storage, but we had some disagreement if that was better or worse. Ned for one thought the warmer storage bottles showed as more lush, and tended to prefer. Fun night, and I'll post on other wines of evening a bit later. Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency. |
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT), DaleW >
wrote: > We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > WLDG (including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > the AC at night , etc. I've snipped the details, but a terrific post, Dale, and very informative. You did a kind of tasting I've wanted to do for years but ever did. -- Ken Blake Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Apr 3, 10:43�am, DaleW > wrote:
> Four friends joined me last night for the Two Year Somewhat Poor > Storage test. We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > WLDG �(including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > the AC at night , etc. > > For the tasting, I furnished pairs of glasses to everyone. We had > different styles, but everyone had matched pairs to eliminate that > variation (in conversation I had Al sniff my Chardonnays- he agreed > the difference between my Burg glass and his Bordeaux stem was bigger > than difference between the differently stored bottles) > > Before we got to my bottles, we tried 2 Chardonnays that Ned had > brought, he had independently been running a similar experiment for > one of his classes. For the last 9 months one bottle had been in a 58 > degree home cave, the other had been in a garage. He figured low was > about 50 (unheated, but hot water pipes run through) and high about > 90. > > 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #1 > I thought I got a little VA from this at first, but whatever it was > blew off. Pears and tropical fruit, lots of oak, not particularly > buttery. A little disjointed. B- > > 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #2 > Slightly leaner, similar overall though I though more pear and less > tropical, and a little butter. B- > > A couple of people thought #2 was much better, and voted for #1 as bad > storage bottle. I voted no preference, but also #1 as bad storage. Ned > checked for his mark- #2 was the garage bottle! Ned then started > wondering if he mismarked (and convinced himself), but I'll assume his > pre-tasting marking was better than our tasting abilities and > prejudices! > > OK, on to my reds. 3 pairs. I had wrapped as identically as possible, > asked Ron as first arrival to randomly rotate, asked next arrival to > number pairs randomly. > > Cellared bottles: I have a passive cellar. These were stored at floor > level on sides. My cellar at eye level (where I have thermometer) > ranges from about 49-50 degrees F in early Feb to about 66-68 in late > August/early Sept. All changes are very slow and gradual. > > Kitchen bottles : Last 2 years they have been upright. In winter we > keep our house quite cool- 58 at night, 65 during day. Kitchen might > be warmer with a lot of cooking. We have a small frame house, fairly > shaded. We don't have central AC, but do put a window unit in adjacent > living room in summer. It's a large unit and cools entire first floor > (only about 550 sq ft). I'd say kitchen temps range from 70-80 F in > summer. I did remove bottles a couple of times when I thought temps > would be above 85- when cleaning oven in summer, and when away for a > week with no AC going in July. > > Earlier in week I removed kitchen bottles to cellar to ensure all > pairs were served in identical conditions. All bottles had good fills > and no visible defects, except one kitchen bottle (the Brun) had a dry/ > brittle feeling label coming loose in one corner. All bottles opened > about half hour before guests arrived, no visible issues. > > First Round- > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme (Cotes du Ventoux) screwcap > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme #1 > On first tasting I was sure this was the kitchen bottle, there was a > slight roasted/stewed note to the fruit. But that seemed to dissipate > with time. Round, ripe. But pretty dead and lifeless on finish. C+/C > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme #2 > Fresher fruit, balanced, not very exciting but a pretty competent CdR > lookalike. B- > > 4-1 that #1 was kitchen bottle, but one person thought they still > preferred it though they agreed it was the poor storage. And the > kitchen bottles was....#1 > > Second Round- 2006 Terres Dorees (JP Brun) "L'Ancien" Beaujolais VV > > 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #1 > A little bretty note, not bad, good acids, red fruits. Not bad. B- > > 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #2 > Good, still some tannins, good acidity, good cranberry and dark berry > fruit. B/B+ > > I think one person thought #2 was kitchen bottle. The kitchen bottle > was #1 > > Third Round - 2004 Picque Caillou (Pessac-Leognan) real cork > > 2004 Picque Caillou #1 > Open, aromatic, red plums, good acidity, a bit clipped. B- > > 2004 Picque Caillou #2 > Nice, structured, classic Graves with some time ahead. Darker fruits, > a little cedar and tobacco. B+/B > > OK, one person said he just hated both. 2 people agreed #1 was poorer > storage, but liked it as fruitier. 2 people preferred #2. Once again, > kitchen bottle was #1 > > OK, so just some data points. The nine month bottles were to me the > most identical (even if temp extremes were a bit greater). I think the > reds showed more advancement from warm storage, but we had some > disagreement if that was better or worse. Ned for one thought the > warmer storage bottles showed as more lush, and tended to prefer. Fun > night, and I'll post on other wines of evening a bit later. > > Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent > wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't > drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no > promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency. I read this with great anticipation and as usual...it was terrific! Thanks for sharing your findings and I must say I'm a bit surprised. |
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:38:30 -0700, Ken Blake
> wrote: > On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT), DaleW > > wrote: > > > We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > > WLDG (including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > > the AC at night , etc. > > I've snipped the details, but a terrific post, Dale, and very > informative. You did a kind of tasting I've wanted to do for years but > ever did. Ugh! Typo. And not the first time I've typed "ever" when I meant "never." I'm a terrible typist. -- Ken Blake Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Apr 3, 9:43*am, DaleW > wrote:
> Four friends joined me last night for the Two Year Somewhat Poor > Storage test. We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > WLDG *(including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > the AC at night , etc. I always wonder what has happened before the wine reaches the retail store. Your storage conditions and those in a typical retail store may be mild indeed compared to what has sometimes happened in the import and distribution chain in the past, and unfortunately still likely sometimes happens. About 20 years ago I often bought wine from a lady who opened a retail wine and spirits store next door to her clothing store. She was quite a wine collector, went to auctions in the US and UK, and usually would buy a few cases of old wines at each auction. Her husband had a wholesale spirits business. She usually would not buy wines from one of the largest wholesalers in the state because she said they stored wines in a warehouse through the very hot summers with no air conditioning. She rarely would buy wine from them when they received a shipment during cool weather. The situation with a few importers could be even worse. She told of grand cru Burgundy arriving in Houston at the peak of summer and sitting on the extremely hot dock for a long time. The heat was so extreme, that the corks were forced up and stretched the foil capsule. The importers would press the corks and foil capsule back down, but this usually left some wrinkles at the top of the capsules, and she showed me an example of such a bottle. Another factor is light exposure. I know a store that is enclosed in mostly glass. If you go in in the afternoon, everything is in the shade. However if you shop in the morning, one end of the store is exposed to bright sunlight, and this just happens to be where they store sparkling wine and beer. The effect on beer in glass bottles on display, especially clear ones, perhaps is even more extreme than that for wine. It does not take long for a premium import beer to take on a nasty "skunky" smell and taste. |
Posted to alt.food.wine
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Apr 3, 10:43*am, DaleW > wrote:
> Four friends joined me last night for the Two Year Somewhat Poor > Storage test. We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > WLDG *(including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > the AC at night , etc. > > For the tasting, I furnished pairs of glasses to everyone. We had > different styles, but everyone had matched pairs to eliminate that > variation (in conversation I had Al sniff my Chardonnays- he agreed > the difference between my Burg glass and his Bordeaux stem was bigger > than difference between the differently stored bottles) > > Before we got to my bottles, we tried 2 Chardonnays that Ned had > brought, he had independently been running a similar experiment for > one of his classes. For the last 9 months one bottle had been in a 58 > degree home cave, the other had been in a garage. He figured low was > about 50 (unheated, but hot water pipes run through) and high about > 90. > > 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #1 > I thought I got a little VA from this at first, but whatever it was > blew off. Pears and tropical fruit, lots of oak, not particularly > buttery. A little disjointed. B- > > 2007 Chalone Chardonnay (Monterey) #2 > Slightly leaner, similar overall though I though more pear and less > tropical, and a little butter. B- > > A couple of people thought #2 was much better, and voted for #1 as bad > storage bottle. I voted no preference, but also #1 as bad storage. Ned > checked for his mark- #2 was the garage bottle! Ned then started > wondering if he mismarked (and convinced himself), but I'll assume his > pre-tasting marking was better than our tasting abilities and > prejudices! > > OK, on to my reds. 3 pairs. I had wrapped as identically as possible, > asked Ron as first arrival to randomly rotate, asked next arrival to > number pairs randomly. > > Cellared bottles: I have a passive cellar. These were stored at floor > level on sides. My cellar at eye level (where I have thermometer) > ranges from about 49-50 degrees F in early Feb to about 66-68 in late > August/early Sept. All changes are very slow and gradual. > > Kitchen bottles : Last 2 years they have been upright. In winter we > keep our house quite cool- 58 at night, 65 during day. Kitchen might > be warmer with a lot of cooking. We have a small frame house, fairly > shaded. We don't have central AC, but do put a window unit in adjacent > living room in summer. It's a large unit and cools entire first floor > (only about 550 sq ft). I'd say kitchen temps range from 70-80 F in > summer. I did remove bottles a couple of times when I thought temps > would be above 85- when cleaning oven in summer, and when away for a > week with no AC going in July. > > Earlier in week I removed kitchen bottles to cellar to ensure all > pairs were served in identical conditions. All bottles had good fills > and no visible defects, except one kitchen bottle (the Brun) had a dry/ > brittle feeling label coming loose in one corner. All bottles opened > about half hour before guests arrived, no visible issues. > > First Round- > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme (Cotes du Ventoux) screwcap > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme #1 > On first tasting I was sure this was the kitchen bottle, there was a > slight roasted/stewed note to the fruit. But that seemed to dissipate > with time. Round, ripe. But pretty dead and lifeless on finish. C+/C > > 2006 La Vieille Ferme #2 > Fresher fruit, balanced, not very exciting but a pretty competent CdR > lookalike. B- > > 4-1 that #1 was kitchen bottle, but one person thought they still > preferred it though they agreed it was the poor storage. And the > kitchen bottles was....#1 > > Second Round- 2006 Terres Dorees (JP Brun) "L'Ancien" Beaujolais VV > > 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #1 > A little bretty note, not bad, good acids, red fruits. Not bad. B- > > 2006 Terres Dorees "L'Ancien" #2 > Good, still some tannins, good acidity, good cranberry and dark berry > fruit. B/B+ > > I think one person thought #2 was kitchen bottle. The kitchen bottle > was #1 > > Third Round - 2004 Picque Caillou (Pessac-Leognan) real cork > > 2004 Picque Caillou #1 > Open, aromatic, red plums, good acidity, a bit clipped. B- > > 2004 Picque Caillou #2 > Nice, structured, classic Graves with some time ahead. Darker fruits, > a little cedar and tobacco. B+/B > > OK, one person said he just hated both. 2 people agreed #1 was poorer > storage, but liked it as fruitier. 2 people preferred #2. Once again, > kitchen bottle was #1 > > OK, so just some data points. The nine month bottles were to me the > most identical (even if temp extremes were a bit greater). I think the > reds showed more advancement from warm storage, but we had some > disagreement if that was better or worse. Ned for one thought the > warmer storage bottles showed as more lush, and tended to prefer. Fun > night, and I'll post on other wines of evening a bit later. > > Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent > wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't > drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no > promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency. I'd say the results aren't a real surprise- in most cases I wouldn't expect the "bad" conditions to kill these wines (Champagne might be another story). I'll note that I neglected to mention that the kitchen Brun actually showed terribly at first pour, my notes were from a bit later (about the time that flight was poured I went to grill some sausages and squash). It improved to B- in my opinion, though Ned thought it never improved. I retasted the wines that I retained pairs of the next night (sent some partial bottles home with folks Fri night). Not blind, obviously. The Chalone bottle marked garage on back showed markedly more mature- actually quite past it. Bottle 1 was appreciably fresher- not my favorite style, but not much changed from Fri night. While this is of course subjective and subject to my biases, I'm pretty damn sure there is a real difference in how these held overnight. Both simply recorked and in fridge. The kitchen Brun was also gone- maderized with ashtray aromas. The cellared Brun was pretty advanced, but drinkable. These has merely been recorked and left on counter. Again, this wasn't blind. But in case of Chardonnay, there was actually clear color difference. An interesting experiment (that I'm not willing to finance!) would be to put a few really ageworthy wines under same conditions for 2 years, and then have the kitchen bottles join the cellared ones for another 8, and taste after 10 years. |
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TN: 2 Year Storage Experiment (Graves, Bojo, Rhone)
On Apr 3, 2:19*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 9:43*am, DaleW > wrote: > > > Four friends joined me last night for the Two Year Somewhat Poor > > Storage test. We had 4 pairs of wines (plus several others that > > weren't part of experiment I'll put in a separate post). Three of the > > pairs were my test subjects. To recap, 2 years ago several of us on > > WLDG *(including Mark Lipton) decided to do a test. The idea was to > > compare bottles we cellared with bottles that faced the equivalent of > > sitting in an average retail store. While some top shops keep store > > cool all of the time, your average neighborhood store probably doesn't > > keep store cooler than 70 or so in summer, and probably doesn't run > > the AC at night , etc. > > I always wonder what has happened before the wine reaches the retail > store. Your storage conditions and those in a typical retail store may > be mild indeed compared to what has sometimes happened in the import > and distribution chain in the past, and unfortunately still likely > sometimes happens. About 20 years ago I often bought wine from a lady > who opened a retail wine and spirits store next door to her clothing > store. She was quite a wine collector, went to auctions in the US and > UK, and usually would buy a few cases of old wines at each auction. > Her husband had a wholesale spirits business. She usually would not > buy wines from one of the largest wholesalers in the state because she > said they stored wines in a warehouse through the very hot summers > with no air conditioning. She rarely would buy wine from them when > they received a shipment during cool weather. The situation with a few > importers could be even worse. She told of grand cru Burgundy arriving > in Houston at the peak of summer and sitting on the extremely hot dock > for a long time. The heat was so extreme, that the corks were forced > up and stretched the foil capsule. The importers would press the corks > and foil capsule back down, but this usually left some wrinkles at the > top of the capsules, and she showed me an example of such a bottle. > > Another factor is light exposure. I know a store that is enclosed in > mostly glass. If you go in in the afternoon, everything is in the > shade. However if you shop in the morning, one end of the store is > exposed to bright sunlight, and this just happens to be where they > store sparkling wine and beer. The effect on beer in glass bottles on > display, especially clear ones, perhaps is even more extreme than that > for wine. It does not take long for a premium import beer to take on a > nasty "skunky" *smell and taste. Yes, beyond retail there are of course concerns both re transport, and at wholesale level. About 7-8 years ago Chateaux and Estates (this might have been when Diageo bought from Seagrams) put a bunch of Bdx (mostly 96-98) on market at fairly low prices. I bought a few bottles of various things from NJ retailers before an ITB acquaintance said that some stock had been stored in large warehouses- temp controlled so things didn't actually cook/push corks, but maybe in upper 70s in summer. No evidence that was the truth, but most of those bottles underperformed when I drank. Re the clear bottles- I'd say about 30% of the Coronas I've ever had were skunked. |
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