I've read varying opinions on whether one can cook with a corked wine (usally 2
chemists squaring off in a sparring match re volatility, etc). I had a vilely
corked bottle of 1997 Villa Pillo Vivaldaia sitting on counter. And tonight I
was eating alone, no one to offend. So lab time.

I warmed a pan, added a little olive oil, browned two seasoned lamb chops.
Removed them from pan. Added some butter and sliced shallots, till softened.
Added a lot (6 oz?) of the corked wine. Let it reduce a bit over med-high heat.
Normally in this sauce, I'd add a touch of vinegar, but I didn't want to skew
results, so didn't. Put chops back in, warmed them in sauce, plated, sat down,
chowed down. I sniffed, I ate, I enjoyed. I didn't get any hint of must. And
believe me, this was a corked wine.

I'm in the middle of the sensitive spectrum. Whether an ultra-sensitive would
react the same is an open question. Whether a recipe using lower heat would do
the same, ditto.

I think from now on good wines ruined by the Portugese menace will have a shot
at culinary redemption.


Dale

Dale Williams
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Dale Williams wrote:

> I warmed a pan, added a little olive oil, browned two seasoned lamb chops.
> Removed them from pan. Added some butter and sliced shallots, till softened.
> Added a lot (6 oz?) of the corked wine. Let it reduce a bit over med-high heat.
> Normally in this sauce, I'd add a touch of vinegar, but I didn't want to skew
> results, so didn't. Put chops back in, warmed them in sauce, plated, sat down,
> chowed down. I sniffed, I ate, I enjoyed. I didn't get any hint of must. And
> believe me, this was a corked wine.

Interesting result, Dale. I don't recall what I may have said on this
subject previously, but TCA is not very volatile all things considered
(it's a solid at room temp and boils at a ridiculously high
temperature), though the fact that we can smell it tells us that it has
*some* volatility. The point is, though, that it won't have completely
evaporated from your sauce. More likely is that it's been chemically
modified by the cooking process. Oxidation is a possibility, though
related compounds like PCBs and dioxin (scared yet? :P) are notoriously
resistant to chemical degradation. How about this? It's dissolved in
the fat, and that reduces our ability to sense it? It's likely that one
reason that we can smell it in such low concentration in wine is that it
isn't very soluble in wine, whereas it's going to be very soluble in
fat, thereby reducing the amount that ends up in the air. I like that
answer, and it may even have some basis in reality. ;-)

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
news:MXn9d.352981$Fg5.272318@attbi_s53...
> I don't recall what I may have said on this
> subject previously, but TCA is not very volatile all things considered
> (it's a solid at room temp and boils at a ridiculously high
> temperature), though the fact that we can smell it tells us that it has
> *some* volatility. The point is, though, that it won't have completely
> evaporated from your sauce. More likely is that it's been chemically
> modified by the cooking process. Oxidation is a possibility, though
> related compounds like PCBs and dioxin (scared yet? :P) are notoriously
> resistant to chemical degradation. How about this? It's dissolved in
> the fat, and that reduces our ability to sense it? It's likely that one
> reason that we can smell it in such low concentration in wine is that it
> isn't very soluble in wine, whereas it's going to be very soluble in
> fat, thereby reducing the amount that ends up in the air. I like that
> answer, and it may even have some basis in reality. ;-)

Hi, Mark -

Had you considered the possibility that it may be steam distilled away
during the cooking process?

Tom S

Tom S wrote:

>
> Had you considered the possibility that it may be steam distilled away
> during the cooking process?

No, Tom, I had neglected that excellent suggestion. You are almost
certainly right. I have no idea what the upper limit for boiling is for
steam distillation, but I do know that 1-octanol, with a boiling point
of 195°C does steam distill, so TCA likely will, too.

Mark Lipton

Of course the meat, seasonings, etc. might mask the corked smell a bit
also.

At one time I made vinegar from leftover wine. I soon learned not to
include corked or otherwise grossy defective wine. The vinegar did tend
to mask some of the defects, but by no means all.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

In message >, Cwdjrx _
> writes
>Of course the meat, seasonings, etc. might mask the corked smell a bit
>also.
>
>At one time I made vinegar from leftover wine. I soon learned not to
>include corked or otherwise grossy defective wine. The vinegar did tend
>to mask some of the defects, but by no means all.

According to the Pocket Food & Wine Guide, 'most bad flavours and aromas
of defective wines - smells caused by rogue sulphur compounds (rotten
eggs, putrid drains, cabbages, sweaty socks...) leave with the steam.
One thing boiling won't rid a wine of is corkiness and other musty
smells. It may be slightly modified in the boiling, but your sauce will
stay resolutely musty'.

Key points it mentions are not to waste complex, aromatic wines in the
kitchen, avoid oaky wines for cooking and don't use aluminium when
cooking with wine as it reacts to form aluminium compounds.

It has lots more useful advice.

--
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>According to the Pocket Food & Wine Guide, 'most bad flavours and aromas
>of defective wines - smells caused by rogue sulphur compounds (rotten
>eggs, putrid drains, cabbages, sweaty socks...) leave with the steam.
>One thing boiling won't rid a wine of is corkiness and other musty
>smells. It may be slightly modified in the boiling, but your sauce will
>stay resolutely musty'.
>
>Key points it mentions are not to waste complex, aromatic wines in the
>kitchen, avoid oaky wines for cooking and don't use aluminium when
>cooking with wine as it reacts to form aluminium compounds.

Who is the author of the Pocket guide?

On the basis of one experiment, I'm not prepared to state that one can always
cook with wine. But I was searching hard for a whiff of TCA in that sauce, and
striking out. I think next I'll try this recipe from Sue Courtney, a NZ wine
writer (scroll to near bottom):

http://www.wineoftheweek.com/stories/winereduc.html

I'munsure in the sauce I made whether TCA steamed off, was altered, or was
masked (there was oil, butter, and meat fat in the pan). Will report on next
experiment.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In message >, Dale Williams
> writes
>>According to the Pocket Food & Wine Guide, 'most bad flavours and aromas

>Who is the author of the Pocket guide?

It's by Kathryn McWhirter & Charles Metcalfe, and it was published for
Sainsbury's (a UK supermarket chain) by Websters International. My copy
is from 1995 and I remember seeing it in a larger format for a while
after that, but I doubt if it's still in print. I've just checked on the
Sainsbury's website and it's not there, though they do have other wine
and food pairing guides by other authors.

Go to
<http://www.sainsburysentertainyou.co.uk/mall/sainsburys/main.cfm>
and search for 'wine'.

However the authors above have popped up on the website for Tesco, a
rival UK supermarket chain:
<http://www.tesco.com/winestore/wineguide.htm>
There is also a food & wine pairing guide here.

--
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Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:29:05 -0500, Mark Lipton > said:

] Tom S wrote:
]=20
] >=20
] > Had you considered the possibility that it may be steam distilled away
] > during the cooking process?
]=20
] No, Tom, I had neglected that excellent suggestion. You are almost=20
] certainly right. I have no idea what the upper limit for boiling is for=20
] steam distillation, but I do know that 1-octanol, with a boiling point=20
] of 195=B0C does steam distill, so TCA likely will, too.
]=20

Interesting, Mark. When this had come up before, you were pretty
skeptical! =20

I used to use corked wine regularly to deglaze, and my opinion was
that the TCA taste went away entirely. (I'm medium sensitive, but
Adele is _very_ sensitive, so I'm confident that it really disappeared).
However, some months ago I deglazed a steak with some corky port,
and it just didn't work. Whether I didn't boil sufficiently or what, the
sauce was horrible, inedible. I actually washed the meat and re-heated
it; it was that or chuck it out.

Following this experience I am reluctant to cook with anything corked.
Ugh, just thinking about it makes my gorge lift, you might as well
wave some Southern Comfort under my nose...

-E

--=20
Emery Davis
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