I am a big time sceptic about gadgets that claim they will make wine taste
better. (In the real world I'm a criminal prosecutor for the State of
California. I've seen scam after scam in the last 30 years.) Remember the
unbelievable claims about aging wine inside a pyramid or a dome? After the San
Francisco Fire in 1909, the California Wine Association ran adds about how some
of the wine in its cellars improved because of the exposure to the heat of the
fire! I thought all these devices and claims were just scams.

I was at a pinot noir tasting (10/06/2004) today that was designed to
publicize a neat new book on Pinot Noir (North American Pinot Noir by John
Winthrop Haeger, just published by the University of California Press) I got to
talking with one of the two Masters of Wine who lives in Orange County,
California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about a device he (and the
inventors) were about to market. It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.
Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins or green oak tannins the
magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto longer molecules that are
too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got this right) But on well
balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.

I'm thinking to myself-"Yeah sure. What's next, black boxes that accumulate
orgones?" He brought one of the prototypes into the tasting and darned if it
didn't seem to work (I know, I know...placebo effect and all that) All I can
say is I told Patrick I wanted one when they become available in a couple of
months. (For the whopping price of $19.95, it isn't a big risk. I want to take
several wines-pour them from the bottle and then though this device, serve them
blind to a group of experienced tasters and see the results (I'll post) For now
this is simply a heads up on an oh so interesting gadget. (I have no $$$
interest in this-I hadn't met Patrick until today) I'm just an intrigued wine
buff.

If you're interested in getting one when they become available drop a note to
Patrick Farrell MW at

Bob (still shaking my head) Foster, San Diego

Hi Bob and thanks for an unusual and interesting posting. I have some
experience with technical gadgets myself (in the real world I design
microelectronic products, and had my first consumer gadget in successful
production 32 years ago). Other genres of consumer technology with a
non-traditional flavor have demonstrated important merit, and many too have
proven out to be absolute junk (despite passionate followings). Honest
testing will tell -- good luck with your initiatives there.

"BFSON" > in
...
> . . .
> I was at a pinot noir tasting (10/06/2004) today that was designed
> to publicize a neat new book on Pinot Noir (North American Pinot
> Noir by JohnWinthrop Haeger, just published by the University
> of California Press)

This could be important. It was Haeger who wrote the extraordinary 1998
article "Wine Magnum Force," appearing in Los Angeles Magazine (it can be
found online by search), which actually looked at the phenomena of Robert
Parker and numerical wine ratings with searching depth and perspective.
(Not every writer on such topics today is both inclined and equipped to do
so, evidently). Many people have found that article striking. I look
forward to checking out this new and longer work on a timely subject. It
was the UC Press that published the large landmark UC-Sotheby _Book of
California Wine_ in 1984 (Muscatine, Amerine, Thompson, editors), widely
available now on the US used market.

-- Max

Once I get my device I plan to find 3 or 4 wines that have either the green
tannins or the oaky tannins, pour one glass for each taster right from the
bottle and another glass through the device. We will serve them double blind
(the tasters won't know the wines, or which wine is in which glass, or even
what the varietal is) I'll report back to afw once were done.

BY THE WAY-THE E MAIL ADDRESS IN MY FIRST POST TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG. THE
CORRECT ADDRESS FOR PARTICK FARRELL IS

Bob Foster, San Diego

BFSON wrote:

> I was at a pinot noir tasting (10/06/2004) today that was designed to
> publicize a neat new book on Pinot Noir (North American Pinot Noir by John
> Winthrop Haeger, just published by the University of California Press) I got to
> talking with one of the two Masters of Wine who lives in Orange County,
> California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about a device he (and the
> inventors) were about to market. It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.
> Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins or green oak tannins the
> magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto longer molecules that are
> too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got this right) But on well
> balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.

Bob,
You're right to be skeptical. This is nothing but pseudo-scientific
claptrap. He may be a MoW, but he's clearly not someone with much
background in the physical sciences. The polymerization of tannins, a
real phenomenon, is produced through oxidation or prolonged exposure to
acid, neither of which are going to be affected in any way by a magnetic
field, no matter how large. In my research, we routinely subject
molecules to very high magnetic fields with absolutely no chemical
changes induced. Indeed, if this were not so there would be no MRI.
>
> I'm thinking to myself-"Yeah sure. What's next, black boxes that accumulate
> orgones?"

Wow! A Wilhelm Reich reference on Usenet. I'm impressed!

Mark Lipton

I once dated a girl whose mother was deeply into ALL of William Reich's
mumbo-jumbo. Figured out real quick that both Mom and daughter were way too
nuts for me.

Bob Foster

I once dated a girl whose mother was deeply into ALL of William Reich's
mumbo-jumbo. Figured out real quick that both Mom and daughter were way too
nuts for me.

Bob Foster

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Thu, 07 Oct 2004 05:20:55 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>> California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about a device he (and the
>> inventors) were about to market.

Aha!! I'd be MORE impressed if he (also) had no financial interest.

>> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.

Rather like these magnetic devices claimed to reduce hardness precipitating
out in household heating systems? I've seen a number of studies which show
them to absolutely, completely and utterly ineffective.

>> Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins or green oak tannins the
>> magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto longer molecules that are
>> too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got this right) But on well
>> balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.

> You're right to be skeptical. This is nothing but pseudo-scientific
>claptrap. He may be a MoW, but he's clearly not someone with much
>background in the physical sciences. The polymerization of tannins, a
>real phenomenon, is produced through oxidation or prolonged exposure to
>acid, neither of which are going to be affected in any way by a magnetic
>field, no matter how large. In my research, we routinely subject
>molecules to very high magnetic fields with absolutely no chemical
>changes induced. Indeed, if this were not so there would be no MRI.

Yes, I was wondering about that. What's more the magnetic field used for MRI
is gigantic, to the extent that despite the fact that they were going to
scan my _knee_, they were concerned that I might have some ferrous material
embedded in my eye. The fields are generated using superconductivity and the
apparatus costs millions. I would be surprised if a ceramic magnet could
generate enough flux to affect _anything_ fast enough as it passes the
field.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi BFSON,

le/on 07 Oct 2004 04:48:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Once I get my device I plan to find 3 or 4 wines that have either the green
>tannins or the oaky tannins, pour one glass for each taster right from the
>bottle and another glass through the device. We will serve them double blind
>(the tasters won't know the wines, or which wine is in which glass, or even
>what the varietal is) I'll report back to afw once were done.

That _would_ be interesting. Actually, might I suggest matched pairs (by
grape vine type) of wines. One which is well balanced, one out of balance.
What would be tricky, would be to work out whether your tasting memory was
good enough to remember! That would to some extent skew your results.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

So is this the same things as "the Wine Clip"? I've never seen any results from
a true double-blind test, despite many requests on various fora to the
manufacturers.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

This "Wine Clip" scam was discussed in James Randi's column, it was
explained that the weak fields involved could have no effect at all.
Please go to www.randi.org and click on commentary archive, scroll down
to the Aug 20-2004 article. I think this article talks about Bio-dynamic
grape growing as well (poo in a horn).

This "Wine Clip" scam was discussed in James Randi's column, it was
explained that the weak fields involved could have no effect at all.
Please go to www.randi.org and click on commentary archive, scroll down
to the Aug 20-2004 article. I think this article talks about Bio-dynamic
grape growing as well (poo in a horn).

On 07 Oct 2004 16:24:07 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>So is this the same things as "the Wine Clip"? I've never seen any results from
>a true double-blind test, despite many requests on various fora to the
>manufacturers.

The trial described in this webpage (and my common sense) was
sufficient to cause me not to give the thing a second thought.
http://www.dansdata.com/wineclip.htm

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

BFSON wrote:

> It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.

Here's a pretty thorough review of the same device,
or at least one similar:

http://www.dansdata.com/wineclip.htm

The following paragraph from the review pretty much sums
it up:

"Still, though, when you see 'overwhelming' testimonials
from various allegedly respected wine experts regarding
the extraordinary qualities of The Wine Clip, and then try
it under controlled conditions and find that it doesn't
seem to do anything, you've got to wonder how objective
these people are actually being. There's no reason to
suppose the wine aficionados are any less foolable than
hi-fi enthusiasts who're convinced they can hear the
difference between cheap and expensive speaker cables
even if, unknown to them, the cables are not actually
being changed at all."


Larry Coon
University of California

"Larry Coon" > wrote in message
...
> BFSON wrote:
>
>> It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
>> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of
>> the bottle.
>
> Here's a pretty thorough review of the same device,
> or at least one similar:
>
> http://www.dansdata.com/wineclip.htm
>
> The following paragraph from the review pretty much sums
> it up:
>
> "Still, though, when you see 'overwhelming' testimonials
> from various allegedly respected wine experts regarding
> the extraordinary qualities of The Wine Clip, and then try
> it under controlled conditions and find that it doesn't
> seem to do anything, you've got to wonder how objective
> these people are actually being. There's no reason to
> suppose the wine aficionados are any less foolable than
> hi-fi enthusiasts who're convinced they can hear the
> difference between cheap and expensive speaker cables
> even if, unknown to them, the cables are not actually
> being changed at all."
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

That really says it all! I personally believe that no conceivable
rationale could be adduced for the effect of magnets on wine and no
proponent has ever carried out a proper double blind test. It sort of
reminds me of one of the desperation measures of the Florsheim shoe
company when they were going broke: selling magnetic insoles for their
shoes.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

In article >, says
....
>
>
>"Larry Coon" > wrote in message
...
>> BFSON wrote:
>>
>>> It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
>>> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of
>>> the bottle.
>>
>> Here's a pretty thorough review of the same device,
>> or at least one similar:
>>
>> http://www.dansdata.com/wineclip.htm
>>
>> The following paragraph from the review pretty much sums
>> it up:
>>
>> "Still, though, when you see 'overwhelming' testimonials
>> from various allegedly respected wine experts regarding
>> the extraordinary qualities of The Wine Clip, and then try
>> it under controlled conditions and find that it doesn't
>> seem to do anything, you've got to wonder how objective
>> these people are actually being. There's no reason to
>> suppose the wine aficionados are any less foolable than
>> hi-fi enthusiasts who're convinced they can hear the
>> difference between cheap and expensive speaker cables
>> even if, unknown to them, the cables are not actually
>> being changed at all."
>>
>>
>> Larry Coon
>> University of California
>
>That really says it all! I personally believe that no conceivable
>rationale could be adduced for the effect of magnets on wine and no
>proponent has ever carried out a proper double blind test. It sort of
>reminds me of one of the desperation measures of the Florsheim shoe
>company when they were going broke: selling magnetic insoles for their
>shoes.
>
>
>--
>James V. Silverton
>Potomac, Maryland, USA

Now, had Florsheim just advised buyers to pour their red wine through those
insoles... <G>

Hunt

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,
>
> le/on Thu, 07 Oct 2004 05:20:55 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>
>>> California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about
>>> a device he (and the
>>> inventors) were about to market.
>
> Aha!! I'd be MORE impressed if he (also) had no financial
> interest.
>
>>> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it
>>> pours out of the bottle.
>
> Rather like these magnetic devices claimed to reduce
> hardness precipitating
> out in household heating systems? I've seen a number of
> studies which show
> them to absolutely, completely and utterly ineffective.
>
>>> Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins
>>> or green oak tannins the
>>> magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto
>>> longer molecules that are
>>> too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got
>>> this right) But on well
>>> balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.
>
>> You're right to be skeptical. This is nothing but
>> pseudo-scientific
>>claptrap. He may be a MoW, but he's clearly not someone
>>with much
>>background in the physical sciences. The polymerization
>>of tannins, a
>>real phenomenon, is produced through oxidation or
>>prolonged exposure to
>>acid, neither of which are going to be affected in any way
>>by a magnetic
>>field, no matter how large. In my research, we routinely
>>subject
>>molecules to very high magnetic fields with absolutely no
>>chemical
>>changes induced. Indeed, if this were not so there would
>>be no MRI.
>
> Yes, I was wondering about that. What's more the magnetic
> field used for MRI
> is gigantic, to the extent that despite the fact that they
> were going to
> scan my _knee_, they were concerned that I might have some
> ferrous material
> embedded in my eye. The fields are generated using
> superconductivity and the
> apparatus costs millions. I would be surprised if a
> ceramic magnet could
> generate enough flux to affect _anything_ fast enough as
> it passes the
> field.

Hi Ian - I take it that if the principle claimed for these
magnetic wine gadgets works then anyone undergoing an MRI
scan will end up with longer molecules, become more balanced
and taste better?
Cheers!
Martin

>It sort of
>reminds me of one of the desperation measures of the Florsheim shoe
>company when they were going broke: selling magnetic insoles for their
>shoes.

I guess someone could sell magnetic inserts for jockstraps .......no, wait - we
wouldn't want to either soften or prematurely age THAT, would we??

How silly of me!

I'd have a little more faith in the dansdata link if he'd used regular,
experienced wine tasters and if they had tasted out of something other than
plastic cups! Talk about skewing the results by the experimental conditions.

Bob Foster

Martin Field wrote:

> Hi Ian - I take it that if the principle claimed for these
> magnetic wine gadgets works then anyone undergoing an MRI
> scan will end up with longer molecules, become more balanced
> and taste better?
> Cheers!
> Martin

That is pretty good proof that the magnets don't work Martin.
I have had at least 6 MRIs since April and I am still unbalanced.
And Ian, I have 4 stents around my heart and the MRI techs didn't
have any problems or warning for me.
Bill

[SNIP]
>
>Hi Ian - I take it that if the principle claimed for these
>magnetic wine gadgets works then anyone undergoing an MRI
>scan will end up with longer molecules, become more balanced
>and taste better?
>Cheers!
>Martin

But Martin, what would happen if one had a bottle of 2001 Bordeaux in their
pocket, when they had the MRI? <G>

Hunt

In article >, says
....
>
>I'd have a little more faith in the dansdata link if he'd used regular,
>experienced wine tasters and if they had tasted out of something other than
>plastic cups! Talk about skewing the results by the experimental conditions.
>
>Bob Foster

Also, one bottle of each wine, and swapping the thingie isn't quite emperical
either. However, I'm not feeling like taking US$40 (or even $20 for the other
one), out of my wine budget to get one and try it with the Riedels. Call me a
stingy skeptic, but I'll wait until Laube, or some other deep-pocket type does
the complete test.

Hunt

PS Dansdata yielded an entire afternoon of links and extraneous reading, like
I needed to surf, rather than work!

We will try to do the test when I get my device. But I think you do want to use
just one bottle of each wine (one glass poured normally, one through the gizmo)
Otherwise any differences may simply reflect bottle variation not the effects
of the magnets.

Bob (no deep pocket-just curious) Foster

Never met a criminal prosecutor yet with any intelligence.

However, you have such intelligence finding out about magnets aging
wine, so I have a special deal for you and only smart people like you.
It's ocean front property for sale dirt cheap. Yes here in Kansas we
have just a few lots left for sale of prime ocean front property for
sale. But it's a secret, wouldn't want the average person driving up
the prices.
BUt just for you at the special price of $999,999.95 you can have the
insiders price for one supersized lot overlooking the ocean. This
offer will not be repeated and is only available today.


All I can say is, anyone brought up on charges in your district should
be able to beat their charges by showing your posting to the jury.
You're so dumb, you'll believe any thing the police tell you. Sad fact
is too many prosecutors like you are in the system.

On 06 Oct 2004 23:50:45 GMT, (BFSON) wrote:

>I am a big time sceptic about gadgets that claim they will make wine taste
>better. (In the real world I'm a criminal prosecutor for the State of
>California. I've seen scam after scam in the last 30 years.) Remember the
>unbelievable claims about aging wine inside a pyramid or a dome? After the San
>Francisco Fire in 1909, the California Wine Association ran adds about how some
>of the wine in its cellars improved because of the exposure to the heat of the
>fire! I thought all these devices and claims were just scams.
>
> I was at a pinot noir tasting (10/06/2004) today that was designed to
>publicize a neat new book on Pinot Noir (North American Pinot Noir by John
>Winthrop Haeger, just published by the University of California Press) I got to
>talking with one of the two Masters of Wine who lives in Orange County,
>California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about a device he (and the
>inventors) were about to market. It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
>causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.
>Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins or green oak tannins the
>magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto longer molecules that are
>too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got this right) But on well
>balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.
>
>I'm thinking to myself-"Yeah sure. What's next, black boxes that accumulate
>orgones?" He brought one of the prototypes into the tasting and darned if it
>didn't seem to work (I know, I know...placebo effect and all that) All I can
>say is I told Patrick I wanted one when they become available in a couple of
>months. (For the whopping price of $19.95, it isn't a big risk. I want to take
>several wines-pour them from the bottle and then though this device, serve them
>blind to a group of experienced tasters and see the results (I'll post) For now
>this is simply a heads up on an oh so interesting gadget. (I have no $$$
>interest in this-I hadn't met Patrick until today) I'm just an intrigued wine
>buff.
>
> If you're interested in getting one when they become available drop a note to
>Patrick Farrell MW at
>
>Bob (still shaking my head) Foster, San Diego

While I am intensely sceptical of magnets as a wine improvement, Bob Foster has
been a respected poster here for a long long time. Insulting people who add
value to this group is the quick road to the killfile.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

wrote:
> Never met a criminal prosecutor yet with any intelligence.
>
> However, you have such intelligence finding out about magnets aging
> wine, so I have a special deal for you and only smart people like you.

The guy that you are bad mouthing, signs his name on his posts
and has been doing so for a long time in this news group. The
guiding light for news group posting is to lurk for 3 months
before posting and then test the water very gently. I suggest
an apology to Bob would be in order.

(BFSON) wrote in message >...

Wine contains no ferrous materials.

End of story. Quit posting crap.


> I am a big time sceptic about gadgets that claim they will make wine taste
> better. (In the real world I'm a criminal prosecutor for the State of
> California. I've seen scam after scam in the last 30 years.) Remember the
> unbelievable claims about aging wine inside a pyramid or a dome? After the San
> Francisco Fire in 1909, the California Wine Association ran adds about how some
> of the wine in its cellars improved because of the exposure to the heat of the
> fire! I thought all these devices and claims were just scams.
>
> I was at a pinot noir tasting (10/06/2004) today that was designed to
> publicize a neat new book on Pinot Noir (North American Pinot Noir by John
> Winthrop Haeger, just published by the University of California Press) I got to
> talking with one of the two Masters of Wine who lives in Orange County,
> California, Dr Patrick Farrell. He was telling me about a device he (and the
> inventors) were about to market. It clamps onto the neck of the bottle and
> causes the wine to go through a magnetic field as it pours out of the bottle.
> Patrick said with wines that have excess green tannins or green oak tannins the
> magnets cause them to change their charge, link onto longer molecules that are
> too big for the receptors on the tongue (I think I got this right) But on well
> balanced wines-it makes them taste worse.
>
> I'm thinking to myself-"Yeah sure. What's next, black boxes that accumulate
> orgones?" He brought one of the prototypes into the tasting and darned if it
> didn't seem to work (I know, I know...placebo effect and all that) All I can
> say is I told Patrick I wanted one when they become available in a couple of
> months. (For the whopping price of $19.95, it isn't a big risk. I want to take
> several wines-pour them from the bottle and then though this device, serve them
> blind to a group of experienced tasters and see the results (I'll post) For now
> this is simply a heads up on an oh so interesting gadget. (I have no $$$
> interest in this-I hadn't met Patrick until today) I'm just an intrigued wine
> buff.
>
> If you're interested in getting one when they become available drop a note to
> Patrick Farrell MW at
>
> Bob (still shaking my head) Foster, San Diego

"Bill Loftin" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> wrote:
>> Never met a criminal prosecutor yet with any intelligence.
>>
>> However, you have such intelligence finding out about magnets aging
>> wine, so I have a special deal for you and only smart people like
>> you.
>
> The guy that you are bad mouthing, signs his name on his posts
> and has been doing so for a long time in this news group. The
> guiding light for news group posting is to lurk for 3 months
> before posting and then test the water very gently. I suggest
> an apology to Bob would be in order.

I find myself in a quandary with this post. IMO (not humble here),
believing in the effect of magnets on wine is at best misguided since
the whole idea is unscientific and any "evidence" is anecdotal. I
guess the use of the word "nonsense" is a bit pugnacious even if that
would be my *personal* opinion but the tone of the post objecting to
Bob's post is unfortunately not in accord with the usual level of
politeness of this group.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

"Uranium Committee" in
om...
> Wine contains no ferrous materials.
>
> End of story. Quit posting crap.

Well, UC, first, it need not be ferrous material to be ferromagnetic, or
otherwise magnetostatically sensitive. Second, wines (especially red wines,
and double-especially good red wines) are full of natural plant minerals
including Iron (symbol Fe as in ferrous), which along with the other
minerals happens to be good for you. Third, I myself have seen no real
evidence, nor any theoretical basis, for magnets being useful for wine.
Fourth, as someone very insightful (an experienced food scientist at the
University of California at Davis) pointed out to Bob Foster's post about
this on an HTML site, it is necessary, and difficult, to design tests that
will get at what is really going on, and remove participant bias, assuming
that anyone wants to know what is really going on; and Fifth, with
magical-sounding consumer products in general, the people most interested in
the product often have motivations different from determining what is really
going on. I have seen this in the world of consumer audio technology, for
example, where lots of techniques and gadgets get promoted that don't fit
the technical worldview of 19-year-old trainee engineers who are quick to
dismiss them; some of these techniques or gadgets do work, but sorting out
which ones do, for real, is not always even in the interest of the people
who do the talking about them.

"Uranium Committee" in
om...
> Wine contains no ferrous materials.
>
> End of story. Quit posting crap.

Well, UC, first, it need not be ferrous material to be ferromagnetic, or
otherwise magnetostatically sensitive. Second, wines (especially red wines,
and double-especially good red wines) are full of natural plant minerals
including Iron (symbol Fe as in ferrous), which along with the other
minerals happens to be good for you. Third, I myself have seen no real
evidence, nor any theoretical basis, for magnets being useful for wine.
Fourth, as someone very insightful (an experienced food scientist at the
University of California at Davis) pointed out to Bob Foster's post about
this on an HTML site, it is necessary, and difficult, to design tests that
will get at what is really going on, and remove participant bias, assuming
that anyone wants to know what is really going on; and Fifth, with
magical-sounding consumer products in general, the people most interested in
the product often have motivations different from determining what is really
going on. I have seen this in the world of consumer audio technology, for
example, where lots of techniques and gadgets get promoted that don't fit
the technical worldview of 19-year-old trainee engineers who are quick to
dismiss them; some of these techniques or gadgets do work, but sorting out
which ones do, for real, is not always even in the interest of the people
who do the talking about them.

Max Hauser wrote:
> Well, UC, first, it need not be ferrous material to be ferromagnetic, or
> otherwise magnetostatically sensitive.

Ironically (in reference to UC's post), ferrOUS materials are NOT
ferromagnetic but diamagnetic. FerrIC materials OTOH are the gold
standard for ferromagnetism, though by no means the only ferromagnetic
material, as you so rightly point out, Max.

> going on. I have seen this in the world of consumer audio technology, for
> example, where lots of techniques and gadgets get promoted that don't fit
> the technical worldview of 19-year-old trainee engineers who are quick to
> dismiss them; some of these techniques or gadgets do work, but sorting out
> which ones do, for real, is not always even in the interest of the people
> who do the talking about them.

Gasp!! Do you mean that my deoxygenated tantalum-praseodymium alloy,
6-gauge speaker cable doesn't have the negative impedence* that they
advertised? I'm gonna ask for my boxtops back...

Mark Lipton

* Yes, impedence is a complex number, but I couldn't come up with the
corresponding bit of ridiculousness.

"Mark Lipton" in news:iQDid.47105$HA.8178@attbi_s01...
>
> Ironically (in reference to UC's post), ferrOUS materials are
> NOT ferromagnetic but diamagnetic. FerrIC materials OTOH
> are the gold standard for ferromagnetism, though by no means
> the only ferromagnetic material, as you so rightly point out, Max.

Since we're now deep into material magnetic effects, one of the more amazing
is diamagnetism (certain materials display it). It repels any incident
magnetic field at all. In 1975 I built a machine to synthesize this effect
in a ball 10cm diameter, using three axes of flat magnetic windings, and
electronics. When activated, the ball would repel from any magnet -- either
pole, any direction. Further, you could press a button to reset its
reference point in space and then it would "lock" there, in free air, if any
strong magnet was nearby. If you then moved it in any direction you would
feel a "restoring" force pulling it back to its equilibrium position. (The
ball was hand-held, but not self-contained because of the power necessary to
drive its coils; connected by umbilical cable was a box the size of a
six-bottle wine box. Like Dujac's or Tollot-Beaut's six-bottle boxes.) The
idea was due to A. J. Lieberman. I put a summary on sci.electronics circa
1987 and have it on file (but I don't know if the major archives got it).

>
> > I have seen this in the world of consumer audio technology,
> > for example ... sorting out which [gadgets work],
> > for real, is not always even in the interest of the people
> > who do the talking about them.
>
> Gasp!! Do you mean that my deoxygenated tantalum-praseodymium
> alloy, 6-gauge speaker cable doesn't have the negative impedence*
> that they advertised? ...

Some of you may think that's far-fetched!

[But my main point, to reiterate, was not to say that many consumer gimmicks
are "snake oil," in the traditional US phrase, which of course is true;
rather, that some of them are not; and more importantly, few people talk
seriously, in either direction, about finding out.]

Sorry!

"Max Hauser" in ...
>
> ... The idea was due to A. J. Lieberman.


Meant M. A. Lieberman. Not to be confused with Abbott Joseph Liebling.
(Foodian slip.)

To those of you who rose to my defense, thank you. But I learned long ago to
pay no attention to the scum who post nasty notes but lack the courage to sign
their true name. Don't hold your breath waiting for an aplogy. It will never
arrive.