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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ron Lel
 
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Default August Decanter

I have just received my August copy of Decanter. At the risk of re opening a
debate, I note with some interest that there are a number of artciles in it
which deal with alternative closures. In particular the article by Andrew
Jefford points out the reductive character of many wines bottled under
Stlevin. Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that he
"hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.

Another article by Paul White notes the serious closure faults he discovered
when tasting wines in New Zealand and in Australia which had been bottled
under Stelvin. This same article also makes mention of clinical research by
the Australian Wine Research Institute which suggests a strong possibility
of reduction problems in screwcaps.

This is interesting when one looks at the strong views expressed by some
posters on this newsgroup on this particular issue.

Ron Lel


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Default

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:24:31 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>I have just received my August copy of Decanter.


Just to let you know that Robert Joseph, editor in chief of "Wine" magazine,
and leading competitor in the UK for Decanter, is strongly in favour of
Stelvin. This might - in part - explain Decanter's current stance.

I'm not casting any doubt on the honesty of the opinions expressed against
the closure, by the way. Like Michael, I feel that we should be given the
choice of closure so that we can decide for ourselves which evil to avoid.

By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had
a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that
alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the
ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even
under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden
tablets) is used at bottling time.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" > wrote:

> Another article by Paul White notes the serious closure faults
> he discovered when tasting wines in New Zealand and in Australia
> which had been bottled under Stelvin. This same article also
> makes mention of clinical research by the Australian Wine
> Research Institute which suggests a strong possibility of
> reduction problems in screwcaps.
>
> This is interesting when one looks at the strong views expressed
> by some posters on this newsgroup on this particular issue.


It's a well-known issue I'd call "beginner's fault". You just need
to adjust your winemaking to a more precise and less sloppy
approach when it comes to sulphur levels etc. It's well known act
that cork "pardons" this easily. There is the well-known
phenomenon of "bottling sickness" which blows of after a few
weeks/months in the bottle or with extended aerating/caraffing/
decanting after opening. I see this phenomenon - which is not
*that* common anyhow - as the cause of the problem.

This is not that I deny the problem - it exists, although far less
frequently than cork taints -, but the solution to the problem
*is* known, the problem *is* solvable, while there is no working
remedy against cork taints in the broadest sense, at least not
yet.

M.
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Default

Michael Pronay > wrote:

> I see this phenomenon - which is not *that* common anyhow - as
> the cause of the problem.


Well, not exactly "cause", but the other side of the same medal.

M.
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
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Michael Pronay > wrote:

> I see this phenomenon - which is not *that* common anyhow - as
> the cause of the problem.


Well, not exactly "cause", but the other side of the same medal.

M.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ron Lel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "Ron Lel" > wrote:
>
>> Another article by Paul White notes the serious closure faults
>> he discovered when tasting wines in New Zealand and in Australia
>> which had been bottled under Stelvin. This same article also
>> makes mention of clinical research by the Australian Wine
>> Research Institute which suggests a strong possibility of
>> reduction problems in screwcaps.
>>
>> This is interesting when one looks at the strong views expressed
>> by some posters on this newsgroup on this particular issue.

>
> It's a well-known issue I'd call "beginner's fault". You just need
> to adjust your winemaking to a more precise and less sloppy
> approach when it comes to sulphur levels etc.

snipped
M.

Michael, how would this reduce reductive characteristics? I am particularly
interested by Croser's attitudes here as well.

Ron


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" > wrote:

> Michael, how would this [sc. more precise pro-bottling
> management] reduce reductive characteristics?


| As we see it today, the winemaking implications of using screw
| caps relate primarily to five areas; sulphides, dissolved gasses
| (and in particular dissolved oxigen), sulphur dioxide, tannins
| and bottling considerations.

Tyson Stelzer, "Screwed for Good", p. 62. All these issues are
discussed in extenso on the next 10 pages.

Sorry, I am not a winemaker, and my command of English is not as good
as to being able to excerpt. Maybe one could find more be googling.

> I am particularly interested by Croser's attitudes here as well.


Sorry, nothing directly related, but quite an interesting read:

<http://www.grapeandwine.com.au/2004/march/05.htm>

stating Croser having introduced screw caps back in 1977 at the
Charles Sturt University (CSU) Winery, NSW (AU). Extremely
intersting: TNs of very old AU whites at the bottom of the page.

M.
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" > wrote:

> Michael, how would this [sc. more precise pro-bottling
> management] reduce reductive characteristics?


| As we see it today, the winemaking implications of using screw
| caps relate primarily to five areas; sulphides, dissolved gasses
| (and in particular dissolved oxigen), sulphur dioxide, tannins
| and bottling considerations.

Tyson Stelzer, "Screwed for Good", p. 62. All these issues are
discussed in extenso on the next 10 pages.

Sorry, I am not a winemaker, and my command of English is not as
good as to being able to excerpt. Maybe one could find more be
googling.

> I am particularly interested by Croser's attitudes here as well.


Sorry, nothing directly related, but quite an interesting read:

<http://www.grapeandwine.com.au/2004/march/05.htm>

stating Croser having introduced screw caps back in 1977 at the
Charles Sturt University (CSU) Winery, NSW (AU). Extremely
intersting: TNs of very old AU whites at the bottom of the page.

Another interesting read: The Hogue study, as interpreted by the
Wine Spectator:

<http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Daily/News/0,1145,2526,00.html>

M.
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Pronay > wrote:

> Another interesting read: The Hogue study, as interpreted by the
> Wine Spectator:
>
> <http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Daily/News/0,1145,2526,00.html>


From the article:

| The results didn't surprise David Forsyth, Hogue's director of
| winemaking. Hogue staff tastings (of their own wines and those
| produced by competitors) have revealed an 18 percent incidence
| of cork taint. And batches of corks purchased by the estate are
| often judged substandard. "We do a lot of sensory work on
| incoming corks, and we had to look at 40 different lots before
| finding one we could use. And even that had 2 percent taint," he
| said.

M.
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Pronay > wrote:

> Another interesting read: The Hogue study, as interpreted by the
> Wine Spectator:
>
> <http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Daily/News/0,1145,2526,00.html>


From the article:

| The results didn't surprise David Forsyth, Hogue's director of
| winemaking. Hogue staff tastings (of their own wines and those
| produced by competitors) have revealed an 18 percent incidence
| of cork taint. And batches of corks purchased by the estate are
| often judged substandard. "We do a lot of sensory work on
| incoming corks, and we had to look at 40 different lots before
| finding one we could use. And even that had 2 percent taint," he
| said.

M.


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" wrote in message

> Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that
> he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
>


Hhmmm!

Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures,
and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill'
Riesling.

I wonder of someone has been misquoted.

--

st.helier


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" wrote in message

> Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that
> he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
>


Hhmmm!

Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures,
and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill'
Riesling.

I wonder of someone has been misquoted.

--

st.helier


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Lel" wrote in message

> Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that
> he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
>


Hhmmm!

Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures,
and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill'
Riesling.

I wonder of someone has been misquoted.

--

st.helier


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ron Lel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"st.helier" > wrote in message
news:1096160476.959945@ftpsrv1...
> "Ron Lel" wrote in message
>
>> Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that
>> he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
>>

>
> Hhmmm!
>
> Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures,
> and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill'
> Riesling.
>
> I wonder of someone has been misquoted.
>
> --
>
> st.helier


Yes I am aware of this, (> Brian Croser was at the forefront of the
introduction of Stelvin closures).
.. I suspect he was commenting particularly on his reds rather than whites.
The Petaluma Riesling is available under both sorts of closures.
Over the last 2 years I have purchased a case, 6 of each, and look forward
with interest to comparing the two closures over the years.

I suspect strongly that most Australian wine drinkers do not age white wines
and indeed have a prejudice against this, or simply, (erroneously), believe
that Aust whites do not age. I remember some years ago the amazement of some
people to whom I showed a '47 Yalumba Carte D'or Riesling which was still in
excellent condition.

To Michael P,
Thanks for the links; they made interesting reading.

Ron


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ron Lel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"st.helier" > wrote in message
news:1096160476.959945@ftpsrv1...
> "Ron Lel" wrote in message
>
>> Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that
>> he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
>>

>
> Hhmmm!
>
> Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures,
> and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill'
> Riesling.
>
> I wonder of someone has been misquoted.
>
> --
>
> st.helier


Yes I am aware of this, (> Brian Croser was at the forefront of the
introduction of Stelvin closures).
.. I suspect he was commenting particularly on his reds rather than whites.
The Petaluma Riesling is available under both sorts of closures.
Over the last 2 years I have purchased a case, 6 of each, and look forward
with interest to comparing the two closures over the years.

I suspect strongly that most Australian wine drinkers do not age white wines
and indeed have a prejudice against this, or simply, (erroneously), believe
that Aust whites do not age. I remember some years ago the amazement of some
people to whom I showed a '47 Yalumba Carte D'or Riesling which was still in
excellent condition.

To Michael P,
Thanks for the links; they made interesting reading.

Ron




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Ian Hoare wrote:

> By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had
> a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that
> alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the
> ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even
> under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden
> tablets) is used at bottling time.


With all due respect, Ian, sulfite will oxidize far faster than alcohol.
Indeed, if the oxidation of alcohol weren't very sluggish, our opened bottles
of distilled spirits would be too vinegary to drink. As for "reductive"
flavors, I'd suggest thiol odors (rotten eggs, skunk, rubber, etc.) as the most
recognizable.

Mark Lipton

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Whingeing Ninja
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 26/9/04 11:57 AM, in article
, "Ron Lel" >
wrote:

> I suspect strongly that most Australian wine drinkers do not age white wines
> and indeed have a prejudice against this, or simply, (erroneously), believe
> that Aust whites do not age.


Depends... if they've sampled a Clare riesling or Hunter sem with a smidgen
of bottle age they've probably been converted...

wn

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Whingeing Ninja
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 26/9/04 11:57 AM, in article
, "Ron Lel" >
wrote:

> I suspect strongly that most Australian wine drinkers do not age white wines
> and indeed have a prejudice against this, or simply, (erroneously), believe
> that Aust whites do not age.


Depends... if they've sampled a Clare riesling or Hunter sem with a smidgen
of bottle age they've probably been converted...

wn

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:37:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>> By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had
>> a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that
>> alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the
>> ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even
>> under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden
>> tablets) is used at bottling time.

>
>With all due respect, Ian, sulfite will oxidize far faster than alcohol.


Sorry not to have expressed myself clearly, Mark.

That's exactly my point. Even though oxygen may have been present in the air
space between cork and wine, the SO2 usually added at filling time will have
neutralised it very quickly. So from then onwards, the fact that you have
alcohol (and perhaps still some free SO2) present, and no oxygen, means that
the conditions in the bottle are reductive rather than oxidative. The only
chance of any oxygen getting in would be when the bottles cool (normally
during fall and winter, in a non temperature controlled cellar). And even
then the minute traces of oxygen (w/w when compared with gram-mole
equivalents of alcohol) would be used up _relatively_ fast, returning the
conditions in the bottle to reductive.

>Indeed, if the oxidation of alcohol weren't very sluggish, our opened bottles
>of distilled spirits would be too vinegary to drink.


Good point. I'd not thought of it. I can only suggest that either the much
higher levels of alcohol present inhibit oxidation or that the weight (in gm
moles) of oxygen is so low that the oxidation is negligable. Because we all
know that once a bottle has been opened and decanted, a time bomb is
ticking. While the wine nearly always improves at first, this improvement is
time limited (15 mins to 48 hours in most cases) and then it deteriorates -
except in the case of a very few wines (Tokaji Aszu, Madeira to name two).
Would you contend that the deterioration is more due to oxidation of
complexes other than alcohol? Possible, certainly. But that would apply as
much to oxygen present in the ullage. And whether it's alcohol or some
complex that oxydises, it will absorb the free oxygen - thereby returning
the equilibrium to reductive.

> As for "reductive" flavors, I'd suggest thiol odors (rotten eggs, skunk, rubber, etc.) as the most
>recognizable.


And in the case of strongly reductive conditions, these faults HAVE been
recognised, certainly. But coming back to the central point, I'd be
astonished if the presence of cork closures (as opposed to something more
hermetically perfect) would significantly reduce the incidence of this. What
do you think?

Good to see you posting again!

Our best to Jean.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:37:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>> By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had
>> a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that
>> alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the
>> ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even
>> under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden
>> tablets) is used at bottling time.

>
>With all due respect, Ian, sulfite will oxidize far faster than alcohol.


Sorry not to have expressed myself clearly, Mark.

That's exactly my point. Even though oxygen may have been present in the air
space between cork and wine, the SO2 usually added at filling time will have
neutralised it very quickly. So from then onwards, the fact that you have
alcohol (and perhaps still some free SO2) present, and no oxygen, means that
the conditions in the bottle are reductive rather than oxidative. The only
chance of any oxygen getting in would be when the bottles cool (normally
during fall and winter, in a non temperature controlled cellar). And even
then the minute traces of oxygen (w/w when compared with gram-mole
equivalents of alcohol) would be used up _relatively_ fast, returning the
conditions in the bottle to reductive.

>Indeed, if the oxidation of alcohol weren't very sluggish, our opened bottles
>of distilled spirits would be too vinegary to drink.


Good point. I'd not thought of it. I can only suggest that either the much
higher levels of alcohol present inhibit oxidation or that the weight (in gm
moles) of oxygen is so low that the oxidation is negligable. Because we all
know that once a bottle has been opened and decanted, a time bomb is
ticking. While the wine nearly always improves at first, this improvement is
time limited (15 mins to 48 hours in most cases) and then it deteriorates -
except in the case of a very few wines (Tokaji Aszu, Madeira to name two).
Would you contend that the deterioration is more due to oxidation of
complexes other than alcohol? Possible, certainly. But that would apply as
much to oxygen present in the ullage. And whether it's alcohol or some
complex that oxydises, it will absorb the free oxygen - thereby returning
the equilibrium to reductive.

> As for "reductive" flavors, I'd suggest thiol odors (rotten eggs, skunk, rubber, etc.) as the most
>recognizable.


And in the case of strongly reductive conditions, these faults HAVE been
recognised, certainly. But coming back to the central point, I'd be
astonished if the presence of cork closures (as opposed to something more
hermetically perfect) would significantly reduce the incidence of this. What
do you think?

Good to see you posting again!

Our best to Jean.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:37:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>> By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had
>> a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that
>> alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the
>> ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even
>> under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden
>> tablets) is used at bottling time.

>
>With all due respect, Ian, sulfite will oxidize far faster than alcohol.


Sorry not to have expressed myself clearly, Mark.

That's exactly my point. Even though oxygen may have been present in the air
space between cork and wine, the SO2 usually added at filling time will have
neutralised it very quickly. So from then onwards, the fact that you have
alcohol (and perhaps still some free SO2) present, and no oxygen, means that
the conditions in the bottle are reductive rather than oxidative. The only
chance of any oxygen getting in would be when the bottles cool (normally
during fall and winter, in a non temperature controlled cellar). And even
then the minute traces of oxygen (w/w when compared with gram-mole
equivalents of alcohol) would be used up _relatively_ fast, returning the
conditions in the bottle to reductive.

>Indeed, if the oxidation of alcohol weren't very sluggish, our opened bottles
>of distilled spirits would be too vinegary to drink.


Good point. I'd not thought of it. I can only suggest that either the much
higher levels of alcohol present inhibit oxidation or that the weight (in gm
moles) of oxygen is so low that the oxidation is negligable. Because we all
know that once a bottle has been opened and decanted, a time bomb is
ticking. While the wine nearly always improves at first, this improvement is
time limited (15 mins to 48 hours in most cases) and then it deteriorates -
except in the case of a very few wines (Tokaji Aszu, Madeira to name two).
Would you contend that the deterioration is more due to oxidation of
complexes other than alcohol? Possible, certainly. But that would apply as
much to oxygen present in the ullage. And whether it's alcohol or some
complex that oxydises, it will absorb the free oxygen - thereby returning
the equilibrium to reductive.

> As for "reductive" flavors, I'd suggest thiol odors (rotten eggs, skunk, rubber, etc.) as the most
>recognizable.


And in the case of strongly reductive conditions, these faults HAVE been
recognised, certainly. But coming back to the central point, I'd be
astonished if the presence of cork closures (as opposed to something more
hermetically perfect) would significantly reduce the incidence of this. What
do you think?

Good to see you posting again!

Our best to Jean.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
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