This is in reply to "Thomas Curmudgeon", on the recent thread concerning wines
from China.

I re-post it as a new topic.

* * * * *

Thomas Curmudgeon writes:

[snipping the rest of his worthwhile comments]

>
>On a different but related topic, I remember reading recently in a small
>town newspaper that Kansas and Missouri produced 80 or 90% of US wine in
>the 1800's. Can that be right? I'll post the article if I can find it again.


The article is wrong. In the 1800s, the midwest had nowhere near 80-90% of
wine production in the US.

Up to 1850, the Ohio River area and New York were dominant. 1850-1880, Great
Lakes, Missouri and New York. After about 1885, California was tops and
remains today. After Repeal of Prohibition, New York had a few decades of
grandeur, in wine volume, as a small sister to California, but it all faded by
1980.

However, one of the top three wine corporations in the US today is Canandaigua,
which was a crummy cheap-quality, bulk New York wine house a decade ago. Their
first acquisition was Taylor, a winery of some pride in quality, of the
Finger Lakes. They kept muddling around in mediocre New York bulk wine,
until they decided to invest in California. Now they own half the state, and
some serious wineries in Napa-Sonoma, and are a serious challenge to Gallo for
pre-eminence in hugeness. Not bad for a former provincial, New York producer
of plonk! I shouldn't say that, because some of their constituent
California wineries are among my best barrel customers. OK, let's call it
smart management---Google an article from about 3 years ago from Forbes
magazine, if you're interested in this amazing, basement to penthouse wine
saga.


I can't speak for Kansas, but Missouri WAS a "wine country" region of note in
the late 1800s.


And, if you were today to saw off the west coast of the US and let it float
out to sea, Missouri might still be relevant, winewise.

It may have had something to do with Mississippi River traffic, but the area
around Springfield, Mo., in the 1870s and 1880s had a flurry of winegrowing
activity.

German immigrants to the area planted vines. German and Swiss winegrowers also
established vinicultural communities along the Ohio River, near Cincinnatti,
and also near Vevay, Indiana.

The failure of classic European grapes in Eastern America (which we now know
was due to phylloxera)--- which Thomas Jefferson, among others, had tried to
propagate--- had led by the 1830s to the discovery of some native American
varieties of grape which were disease-resistant.

The first native American "fox" grape cultivar for wine was the Catawba,
"domesticated" by Nicholas Longworth in Ohio in the 1820s.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, in a famous poem, waxing about Ohio wine country in
the 1830s, described Catawba as "dulcet and dreamy".

Catawba comes from the vitis labrusca native American species, but may have
been crossed by Longworth with a vinifera grape, because it lacks that totally
"wild" character.

Longworth was a politician as well as a grape-grower, and his family became a
dynasty in American politics, right up to the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy's
daughter Alice married an important congressional Longworth, Nicholas'
grandson, I think.

Catawba wines are still produced in several wine districts of the American
northeast.

Catawba, at its best, doesn't compare to classic European vinifera, but it
makes a decent rose-esque quaffing wine, not overtly "foxy", and an even
better sparkler.

At the time, it was the best they had for whites in the early 19th century.

For reds, there was "Norton", an odd, totally non-foxy but nevertheless totally
weird American native, in Latin, vitis cynthiana. The grape is native to
creeksides in Virginia.

The juice of Norton is blood-red, unlike most European red grapes, which have
clear juice.

Freshly fermented Norton red wines have a totally bizarre tannin structure,
which I can only describe as a "twang", without the chewiness of young tannins
one might expect from wines made of European grapes.

But put young Norton in a barrel for a couple of years, bottle it, and then
bottle-age it for another ten years---and presto (presto??)---you have a
marvellous, indescribably nuanced wine which cries out for a great cigar.

Norton is an American original. There's nothing in the world like it.

I had a venison dinner a few years ago, at the home of Jennie McCloud, the
proprietor of Chrysalis Vineyards, in Virginia.

Chrysalis, and Horton Vineyards are two Virginia wineries which imported
vine-stock of this Norton vine, back into their state, from Stone Hill Winery
in Missouri. Apparently, the grape, a native of Virginia, had become extinct
there by the early 20th century, and was only grown commercially in Missouri.

Both Virginia wineries have decided to "bet the farm" on Norton, and they are
mavericks in the manner of the early Zinfandel fanatics in California.

The venison was caught as an interloper in Jennie's vineyard, and wound up on
our dinner table of eight guests. The venison and accoutrements were fabulous.

It was served up with paired wines, a 1982 Ch. Mouton-Rothschild and 1982 Ch.
Lafite-Rothschild. It was, needless to say, a memorable evening!

Two-thirds of the way through, I had the temerity, after tasting two of the
best wines of my life, to call Jennie's bluff about her committment to Norton.
Perhaps she expected me to say this "cue", or maybe not.

But off we went to the cellar, for an early 1980s vintage of Stone Hill Norton,
from Missouri.

The Lafite and the Mouton were still in everyone's glasses. A third glass was
poured, of this well-aged Norton.

There was a gasp in the dining room. The Norton was obviously different, but
it had many of the qualities of a classic Bordeaux.

There were incredibly deep, cedary aromas, and the mouthfeel was complete,
bursting with explosions of mature fruit flavors, and a surprisingly fine
texture. It was like tasting a great old Louis Martini or Ridge California
Zinfandel against a great Bordeaux.

So, for those who think California is the ONLY source of great wines from
America, note that other regions and other grapes are capable of greatness.

Norton may one day become the East's answer to Zinfandel, which is California's
answer to Europe.

It's also a gateway to the re-discovery of some forgotten, unrecognized,
high-quality wine regions in America.

If your impression of Eastern wines is foxy, sweet Concord and labrusca or
sloppy, indifferent hybrids, think again.

Those wine types, sadly, still predominate, because they are cash-cows for the
wineries on the tourist circuit. They are cheap to make, but the profits help
subsidize the very rare and costly-to-produce "serious" wines.

The whole East Coast has been undergoing a viticultural revolution in the last
20 years, much as in California. Wine everywhere is 'made in the vineyard' ,
and new systems of vine trellissing (such as the Geneva double-curtain,
invented in New York but widely in use in California), are producing much
better grapes in the East. Canadian vineyard consultants from the Niagra
peninsula are, in my opinion, among the cutting edge vineyardists in the world!

Ice-wine from the Great Lakes (Michigan and Ohio), and the Finger Lakes (New
York) can be great, even if made from hybrid grapes, like Vidal.

Chardonnay from the Finger Lakes and Long Island (NY) is some of the best in
the US.

The best riesling in America comes from the northeast US and Canada. Some of
the best, most floral viognier can come from Virginia.

The best gewurztraminer I ever had in my life (including Alsace) came from tiny
Red Newt Cellars in the Finger Lakes, NY.

The reds from the northeast can be wonderful after a drought year, like 2002,
but in general they lack depth in other years. Cabernet Franc and Merlot from
Long Island and Virginia can be very worthwhile, and worth seeking out, if not
world-class (and some of my Long Island and Virginia friends will crucify me
after this!).

So, what's to keep a weirdo varietal like Norton, from Missouri and Virginia,
from becoming the next Zinfandel?

Norton, unfortunately, needs time to develop. It's almost undrinkable when
young. Maybe new viticultural practices will tame that wild "tang" of tannin.

But in the meantime, wineries which focus on Norton will have to wait another
couple of extra years to release the wine.

In the wine business, that's costly. Plus, the wine world has become
accustomed to drinking red wines when they are less than five years old.

But if we can respect, for Norton at least, the old adage of cellaring a wine
until it comes into its potential, then patience will be rewarded.

As a postscript: Stone Hill remains one of Missouri's best-known wineries.

But before World War II, there was a very famous brand of "champagne" which
came from Missouri. The brand name was as least as famous as Taylor (in New
York), for anyone living east of the Mississippi, for an entire generation of
GI families.

It was "Cook's Imperial", and you may (unfortunately) find that brand today in
the bargain bins of chamat-bulk-produced champagnes, because the brand has
since been sold to a big California concern, and its reputation totally
depreciated, in the way of Inglenook.

But in its heyday, Cook's was the best American champagne on the market (in
modern terms, that may not be saying a lot). There were wine caves in the
bluffs over the river. And the Heck family---descendants of the early German
winegrowers in Springfield, Missouri, were celebrities, like the Mondavis
today, but a generation before, when the Mondavis were still stuck in Lodi.

In the mid-1940s, the Heck family---descendants of the early German
winegrowers to Springfield, Missouri---sold out the Cook brand, and moved to
California.

[And Cesare Mondavi moved his family to St. Helena, Napa Valley, made his
first wines at the facility known today as Merryvale (Sunny St. Helena Winery)
and in 1941 bought Charles Krug .]

The Hecks took over the old, 19-century Korbel facility in Guerneville, in the
Russian River region of Sonoma County, and specialized in 'champagne', of
course. Korbel 'Natural' was the only serious champagne in America until
Schramsberg came along in 1971. Today the Hecks have prospered with some
very popular and well-made, if not stellar, sparklers and brandies.

The tradition of Missouri winemaking survives in America!

But, Kansas? I don't think so!

--Bob

Time to get out the old Leon Adams book. Met Adams in early 80's. Dr Jay
Miller(Parker's former assistant) and I took him to lunch in Sausalito (sp).
Fascinating man & book which except for Charles Sullivan tomes on the growth
of wine in California really capture the early history of US wines best.

Dr Jay is part owner & manager of Bin 604 wine shop in Baltimore. BTW I
think I was first offered the gig of arranging the Pope of Parkton's double
blind tastings after that trip but turned the man down and suggested Dr Jay
who was the tenor half of the "Wine Guys" tastings gurus(tastings of 20 or
so wines at a time were our "norm") Who knew!!!!

On same trip met Joe Swan, Eleanor McCrea and Charlie Wagner and inhaled
sort of big time. Dr Jay still gets laughs describing my attack on Domaine
Chandon's dessert cart and other detritus from that journey to the left
coast..........You might say I was intemperate.
--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"RobertsonChai" > wrote in message
...
> This is in reply to "Thomas Curmudgeon", on the recent thread concerning
wines
> from China.
>
> I re-post it as a new topic.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Thomas Curmudgeon writes:
>
> [snipping the rest of his worthwhile comments]
>
> >
> >On a different but related topic, I remember reading recently in a small
> >town newspaper that Kansas and Missouri produced 80 or 90% of US wine in
> >the 1800's. Can that be right? I'll post the article if I can find it
again.
>
>
> The article is wrong. In the 1800s, the midwest had nowhere near 80-90%
of
> wine production in the US.
>
> Up to 1850, the Ohio River area and New York were dominant. 1850-1880,
Great
> Lakes, Missouri and New York. After about 1885, California was tops and
> remains today. After Repeal of Prohibition, New York had a few decades of
> grandeur, in wine volume, as a small sister to California, but it all
faded by
> 1980.
>
> However, one of the top three wine corporations in the US today is
Canandaigua,
> which was a crummy cheap-quality, bulk New York wine house a decade ago.
Their
> first acquisition was Taylor, a winery of some pride in quality, of the
> Finger Lakes. They kept muddling around in mediocre New York bulk wine,
> until they decided to invest in California. Now they own half the state,
and
> some serious wineries in Napa-Sonoma, and are a serious challenge to Gallo
for
> pre-eminence in hugeness. Not bad for a former provincial, New York
producer
> of plonk! I shouldn't say that, because some of their constituent
> California wineries are among my best barrel customers. OK, let's call it
> smart management---Google an article from about 3 years ago from Forbes
> magazine, if you're interested in this amazing, basement to penthouse wine
> saga.
>
>
> I can't speak for Kansas, but Missouri WAS a "wine country" region of note
in
> the late 1800s.
>
>
> And, if you were today to saw off the west coast of the US and let it
float
> out to sea, Missouri might still be relevant, winewise.
>
> It may have had something to do with Mississippi River traffic, but the
area
> around Springfield, Mo., in the 1870s and 1880s had a flurry of
winegrowing
> activity.
>
> German immigrants to the area planted vines. German and Swiss winegrowers
also
> established vinicultural communities along the Ohio River, near
Cincinnatti,
> and also near Vevay, Indiana.
>
> The failure of classic European grapes in Eastern America (which we now
know
> was due to phylloxera)--- which Thomas Jefferson, among others, had tried
to
> propagate--- had led by the 1830s to the discovery of some native American
> varieties of grape which were disease-resistant.
>
> The first native American "fox" grape cultivar for wine was the Catawba,
> "domesticated" by Nicholas Longworth in Ohio in the 1820s.
>
> Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, in a famous poem, waxing about Ohio wine
country in
> the 1830s, described Catawba as "dulcet and dreamy".
>
> Catawba comes from the vitis labrusca native American species, but may
have
> been crossed by Longworth with a vinifera grape, because it lacks that
totally
> "wild" character.
>
> Longworth was a politician as well as a grape-grower, and his family
became a
> dynasty in American politics, right up to the time of Teddy Roosevelt.
Teddy's
> daughter Alice married an important congressional Longworth, Nicholas'
> grandson, I think.
>
> Catawba wines are still produced in several wine districts of the American
> northeast.
>
> Catawba, at its best, doesn't compare to classic European vinifera, but it
> makes a decent rose-esque quaffing wine, not overtly "foxy", and an even
> better sparkler.
>
> At the time, it was the best they had for whites in the early 19th
century.
>
> For reds, there was "Norton", an odd, totally non-foxy but nevertheless
totally
> weird American native, in Latin, vitis cynthiana. The grape is native to
> creeksides in Virginia.
>
> The juice of Norton is blood-red, unlike most European red grapes, which
have
> clear juice.
>
> Freshly fermented Norton red wines have a totally bizarre tannin
structure,
> which I can only describe as a "twang", without the chewiness of young
tannins
> one might expect from wines made of European grapes.
>
> But put young Norton in a barrel for a couple of years, bottle it, and
then
> bottle-age it for another ten years---and presto (presto??)---you have a
> marvellous, indescribably nuanced wine which cries out for a great cigar.
>
> Norton is an American original. There's nothing in the world like it.
>
> I had a venison dinner a few years ago, at the home of Jennie McCloud,
the
> proprietor of Chrysalis Vineyards, in Virginia.
>
> Chrysalis, and Horton Vineyards are two Virginia wineries which imported
> vine-stock of this Norton vine, back into their state, from Stone Hill
Winery
> in Missouri. Apparently, the grape, a native of Virginia, had become
extinct
> there by the early 20th century, and was only grown commercially in
Missouri.
>
> Both Virginia wineries have decided to "bet the farm" on Norton, and they
are
> mavericks in the manner of the early Zinfandel fanatics in California.
>
> The venison was caught as an interloper in Jennie's vineyard, and wound up
on
> our dinner table of eight guests. The venison and accoutrements were
fabulous.
>
> It was served up with paired wines, a 1982 Ch. Mouton-Rothschild and 1982
Ch.
> Lafite-Rothschild. It was, needless to say, a memorable evening!
>
> Two-thirds of the way through, I had the temerity, after tasting two of
the
> best wines of my life, to call Jennie's bluff about her committment to
Norton.
> Perhaps she expected me to say this "cue", or maybe not.
>
> But off we went to the cellar, for an early 1980s vintage of Stone Hill
Norton,
> from Missouri.
>
> The Lafite and the Mouton were still in everyone's glasses. A third glass
was
> poured, of this well-aged Norton.
>
> There was a gasp in the dining room. The Norton was obviously different,
but
> it had many of the qualities of a classic Bordeaux.
>
> There were incredibly deep, cedary aromas, and the mouthfeel was complete,
> bursting with explosions of mature fruit flavors, and a surprisingly fine
> texture. It was like tasting a great old Louis Martini or Ridge
California
> Zinfandel against a great Bordeaux.
>
> So, for those who think California is the ONLY source of great wines from
> America, note that other regions and other grapes are capable of
greatness.
>
> Norton may one day become the East's answer to Zinfandel, which is
California's
> answer to Europe.
>
> It's also a gateway to the re-discovery of some forgotten, unrecognized,
> high-quality wine regions in America.
>
> If your impression of Eastern wines is foxy, sweet Concord and labrusca or
> sloppy, indifferent hybrids, think again.
>
> Those wine types, sadly, still predominate, because they are cash-cows for
the
> wineries on the tourist circuit. They are cheap to make, but the profits
help
> subsidize the very rare and costly-to-produce "serious" wines.
>
> The whole East Coast has been undergoing a viticultural revolution in the
last
> 20 years, much as in California. Wine everywhere is 'made in the
vineyard' ,
> and new systems of vine trellissing (such as the Geneva double-curtain,
> invented in New York but widely in use in California), are producing much
> better grapes in the East. Canadian vineyard consultants from the Niagra
> peninsula are, in my opinion, among the cutting edge vineyardists in the
world!
>
> Ice-wine from the Great Lakes (Michigan and Ohio), and the Finger Lakes
(New
> York) can be great, even if made from hybrid grapes, like Vidal.
>
> Chardonnay from the Finger Lakes and Long Island (NY) is some of the best
in
> the US.
>
> The best riesling in America comes from the northeast US and Canada. Some
of
> the best, most floral viognier can come from Virginia.
>
> The best gewurztraminer I ever had in my life (including Alsace) came from
tiny
> Red Newt Cellars in the Finger Lakes, NY.
>
> The reds from the northeast can be wonderful after a drought year, like
2002,
> but in general they lack depth in other years. Cabernet Franc and Merlot
from
> Long Island and Virginia can be very worthwhile, and worth seeking out, if
not
> world-class (and some of my Long Island and Virginia friends will crucify
me
> after this!).
>
> So, what's to keep a weirdo varietal like Norton, from Missouri and
Virginia,
> from becoming the next Zinfandel?
>
> Norton, unfortunately, needs time to develop. It's almost undrinkable
when
> young. Maybe new viticultural practices will tame that wild "tang" of
tannin.
>
> But in the meantime, wineries which focus on Norton will have to wait
another
> couple of extra years to release the wine.
>
> In the wine business, that's costly. Plus, the wine world has become
> accustomed to drinking red wines when they are less than five years old.
>
> But if we can respect, for Norton at least, the old adage of cellaring a
wine
> until it comes into its potential, then patience will be rewarded.
>
> As a postscript: Stone Hill remains one of Missouri's best-known
wineries.
>
> But before World War II, there was a very famous brand of "champagne"
which
> came from Missouri. The brand name was as least as famous as Taylor (in
New
> York), for anyone living east of the Mississippi, for an entire generation
of
> GI families.
>
> It was "Cook's Imperial", and you may (unfortunately) find that brand
today in
> the bargain bins of chamat-bulk-produced champagnes, because the brand has
> since been sold to a big California concern, and its reputation totally
> depreciated, in the way of Inglenook.
>
> But in its heyday, Cook's was the best American champagne on the market
(in
> modern terms, that may not be saying a lot). There were wine caves in
the
> bluffs over the river. And the Heck family---descendants of the early
German
> winegrowers in Springfield, Missouri, were celebrities, like the Mondavis
> today, but a generation before, when the Mondavis were still stuck in
Lodi.
>
> In the mid-1940s, the Heck family---descendants of the early German
> winegrowers to Springfield, Missouri---sold out the Cook brand, and moved
to
> California.
>
> [And Cesare Mondavi moved his family to St. Helena, Napa Valley, made his
> first wines at the facility known today as Merryvale (Sunny St. Helena
Winery)
> and in 1941 bought Charles Krug .]
>
> The Hecks took over the old, 19-century Korbel facility in Guerneville, in
the
> Russian River region of Sonoma County, and specialized in 'champagne', of
> course. Korbel 'Natural' was the only serious champagne in America until
> Schramsberg came along in 1971. Today the Hecks have prospered with
some
> very popular and well-made, if not stellar, sparklers and brandies.
>
> The tradition of Missouri winemaking survives in America!
>
> But, Kansas? I don't think so!
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 12 Sep 2004 11:03:57 GMT, RobertsonChai quoth:
>
> Norton is an American original. There's nothing in the world like it.
>
> I had a venison dinner a few years ago, at the home of Jennie McCloud, the
> proprietor of Chrysalis Vineyards, in Virginia.

A very interesting read, Bob. Thanks for sharing. Makes me want to go
out and find some Norton to try for myself.

Also, I seem to remember that you may be familiar with the Big Island.
Do you know of anywhere with a decent selection of good wines on the island?
So far I'm stuck getting what I can find at grocery stores, and bringing
a few back after mainland trips.


> There were incredibly deep, cedary aromas, and the mouthfeel was complete,
> bursting with explosions of mature fruit flavors, and a surprisingly fine
> texture.

Where do I get some?

bkr

"Beaker" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Sep 2004 11:03:57 GMT, RobertsonChai quoth:
> >
> > Norton is an American original. There's nothing in the world like it.

Funny you should mention Norton! I just opened a bottle of 1998 Hermannhof
Norton a couple of days ago. I bought it at the winery when I was on
company travel in St. Louis a few years ago and had a free weekend to tour
the wine country. Yes, folks, Missouri _does_ have wine country.

As for the wine, at the time of purchase it was pretty young and tannic -
somewhat on the rustic side. This week it didn't even seem like the same
wine. It had softened so much that it seemed quite sweet in the mouth, and
the rim was showing a bit of brick. I have a couple more bottles, and will
not hold them too much longer. It's rather nice drinking now, but certainly
no match for a good California Cabernet IMO.

I don't know if it was clear to others, but Norton is an unusual grape,
being neither vinifera, labrusca nor a hybrid of those. It's indigenous to
North America and produces a pretty nice, full bodied red wine. It appears
to not be worthy of very extended aging though, based on my limited
experience.

Tom S

Beaker > wrote in message news>

> Also, I seem to remember that you may be familiar with the Big Island.
> Do you know of anywhere with a decent selection of good wines on the island?
> So far I'm stuck getting what I can find at grocery stores, and bringing
> a few back after mainland trips.
>
>

I'm not Bob, but when I lived in Hawai'i, Longs Drugs (of all places)
was the place to go for wine. Not sure whether that is still the case.

Andy

Beaker > wrote in message news>

> Also, I seem to remember that you may be familiar with the Big Island.
> Do you know of anywhere with a decent selection of good wines on the island?
> So far I'm stuck getting what I can find at grocery stores, and bringing
> a few back after mainland trips.
>
>

I'm not Bob, but when I lived in Hawai'i, Longs Drugs (of all places)
was the place to go for wine. Not sure whether that is still the case.

Andy

In om,
AyTee > typed:

> Beaker > wrote in message news>
>
>> Also, I seem to remember that you may be familiar with the
>> Big
>> Island.
>> Do you know of anywhere with a decent selection of good wines
>> on the
>> island? So far I'm stuck getting what I can find at grocery
>> stores,
>> and bringing
>> a few back after mainland trips.
>>
>>
>
> I'm not Bob, but when I lived in Hawai'i, Longs Drugs (of all
> places)
> was the place to go for wine. Not sure whether that is still
> the case.


I was last on the Big Island a couple of years ago. I stayed at
the King Kamehameha in Kona. If I remember correctly, there was a
shopping center just north or northeast of the hotel that had a
wine shop with a decent selection.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

On 24 Oct 2004 12:57:43 -0700, (AyTee) wrote:

>Beaker > wrote in message news>
>
>> Also, I seem to remember that you may be familiar with the Big Island.
>> Do you know of anywhere with a decent selection of good wines on the island?
>> So far I'm stuck getting what I can find at grocery stores, and bringing
>> a few back after mainland trips.
>>

Costco had a decent selection.

Place 2 blocks south of the city dock had an extensive selection

Tom S writes:

>
>I don't know if it was clear to others, but Norton is an unusual grape,
>being neither vinifera, labrusca nor a hybrid of those. It's indigenous to
>North America and produces a pretty nice, full bodied red wine. It appears
>to not be worthy of very extended aging though, based on my limited
>experience.
>


Tom, I agree that it's not California cabernet. And I have only limited
experience with really old Nortons.

I have not re-read my post, but I wasn't intending to put Norton on the
pedestal of Great Wines of the World; merely to point out an interesting grape
worthy of critical consideration, with a history which parallels America's.

Not all second-tier and emerging regions of the wine world are going to produce
awesome elixir of the gods; we know that.

I liken it instead to the interesting and unusual "finds" you can make when
touring, say, Hungary, or Greece.

I lament the passing of varietal diversity, as all regions are converting the
world's vineyard into an essential monoculture, plunging headlong into the race
for the best cabernet or chardonnay.

What about those other, equally wonderful pinotages from South Africa,
tempranillos of Spain, the sangioveses of Italy, and the malbecs of Argentina?
(I have a special passion for a good grenache--which can be as hard to find as
a good pinot noir).

The same can be said for some of the grapes of the Eastern US. Vidal ice wine
from Canada can be just as luscious as any great riesling.

I think we can agree there are some really awful wines made in "lesser"
regions, and maybe agree that the best wines of those regions will never
consistently challenge the best of Napa/Bordeaux/McLarenVale.

But I also think the ambiance is important. A chilled Vouvray from the Loire,
or a rose from Provence can be just as enjoyable, in the right context, as any
of the "bug guns".

I'm aware as I write this that these facts are self-evident to this newsgroup.

I see very little snobbery here, and that's why I love reading this bulletin
board!

---Bob

On 24 Oct 2004 12:57:43 -0700, AyTee quoth:
>
> I'm not Bob, but when I lived in Hawai'i, Longs Drugs (of all places)
> was the place to go for wine. Not sure whether that is still the case.

I'm in the Hilo area, BTW. Indeed, Longs and KTA are where poor people
like me find some wine we can afford. (occasionally) Unfortunately both
stock mostly "same-old" high volume American and Australian "major labels".
(i.e. 100 brands of merlot and chardonnay...weeee...) I like the cheaper
Europeans, because I'm into variety and trying new things, but they're
usually way overpriced here. Island Naturals has a smaller selection of
decent looking wines, for just a few dollars more. Worst of all, good
German rieslings, my particular weakness, are the hardest to find here.

bkr