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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:21:11 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:50:59 GMT, Dana Myers >


>This topic came up many threads back and, IIRC, was never settled to
>my complete satisfaction. It's possible that it may never be, but I
>thought I'd use this opportunity to throw it out again for discussion.
>With apparently one lone exception, everyone here agrees that *in
>general* SOME red wines improve following *some* exposure to air.


I'd go further, Vino. I don't think I've ever met a red wine which didn't
improve with some exposure to air - and I'm not talking about opening the
bottle a couple of hours before and leaving it, but by decanting/carafing. I
know of many white wines which do too. For example, many serious white
burgundy makers decant their wines before serving them, as do several of the
best Bergerac wine makers. I can't speak to what the bordelais do, as I
don't often taste white Bordeaux at the property. I have doubts about
whether German whites do, but I've had some Gruner Veltliners which
benefitted by it (right Michael P?).


>changes that occur to the wine itself. I have often wondered how much,
>if any, of the improvement comes from the escape of undesirable
>compounds that were either bottled with the wine or formed after
>bottling. I'm not necessarily talking about the usual suspects such as
>SO2, mercaptans, etc. There may even be compounds that have little or
>no odor themselves but somehow degrade the wine. I readily admit to
>profound ignorance here, but I can't help but wonder.


No, I don't think this is the case. I think that the decanting process and
exposure to oxygen allow some of the components to form/develop. They were
"waiting" for the moment, and decantation kick starts it.

This is a non experiment I've done dozens/hundreds of times. Take two
bottles of the same wine. Decant one and leave the other sealed. Then 1 hour
or 2 hours or whatever, open the second and taste them against each other.
Do it double blind if you like so one person pours in one room and the
second tastes, so you have no idea which was which. I don't do it anything
like as formally. If I don't know whether my guests (3-4 meals a week 6-8
months a year for the last 10 years, gives me a _some_ small experience) are
going to need one bottle or two of a particular wine, then I'll decant one,
and leave the other unopened. If the second is needed I'll open and decant
immediately. You can almost always tell the difference, and -in my opinion -
the first bottle shows more on the nose and (in the case of reds) is often
less tannic. However once poured into glasses and swirled around, the second
can "catch up".
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:21:11 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:50:59 GMT, Dana Myers >


>This topic came up many threads back and, IIRC, was never settled to
>my complete satisfaction. It's possible that it may never be, but I
>thought I'd use this opportunity to throw it out again for discussion.
>With apparently one lone exception, everyone here agrees that *in
>general* SOME red wines improve following *some* exposure to air.


I'd go further, Vino. I don't think I've ever met a red wine which didn't
improve with some exposure to air - and I'm not talking about opening the
bottle a couple of hours before and leaving it, but by decanting/carafing. I
know of many white wines which do too. For example, many serious white
burgundy makers decant their wines before serving them, as do several of the
best Bergerac wine makers. I can't speak to what the bordelais do, as I
don't often taste white Bordeaux at the property. I have doubts about
whether German whites do, but I've had some Gruner Veltliners which
benefitted by it (right Michael P?).


>changes that occur to the wine itself. I have often wondered how much,
>if any, of the improvement comes from the escape of undesirable
>compounds that were either bottled with the wine or formed after
>bottling. I'm not necessarily talking about the usual suspects such as
>SO2, mercaptans, etc. There may even be compounds that have little or
>no odor themselves but somehow degrade the wine. I readily admit to
>profound ignorance here, but I can't help but wonder.


No, I don't think this is the case. I think that the decanting process and
exposure to oxygen allow some of the components to form/develop. They were
"waiting" for the moment, and decantation kick starts it.

This is a non experiment I've done dozens/hundreds of times. Take two
bottles of the same wine. Decant one and leave the other sealed. Then 1 hour
or 2 hours or whatever, open the second and taste them against each other.
Do it double blind if you like so one person pours in one room and the
second tastes, so you have no idea which was which. I don't do it anything
like as formally. If I don't know whether my guests (3-4 meals a week 6-8
months a year for the last 10 years, gives me a _some_ small experience) are
going to need one bottle or two of a particular wine, then I'll decant one,
and leave the other unopened. If the second is needed I'll open and decant
immediately. You can almost always tell the difference, and -in my opinion -
the first bottle shows more on the nose and (in the case of reds) is often
less tannic. However once poured into glasses and swirled around, the second
can "catch up".
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
> Salut/Hi Michael Scarpitti,
>
> le/on 6 Sep 2004 18:56:36 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>
> Dana said
> >> try drinking a wine slowly over a period of
> >> 15-30 minutes without eating food at the same time. It would
> >> be exceptional if you didn't notice a change in the wine itself.

>
> >That's because the alcohol cleans off your tongue.

>
> Rubbish.
>
> The whole world is out of step except you.


Have you considered the possibility that you and the others are mistaken?

> You deny the validity of all
> theose who have politely suggested that you might be mistaken and you come
> up with nonsense statements.
>
> In case you didn't know, the tongue has nothing to do with the subtleties of
> wine tasting. All you can _taste_ as opposed to smell, is salt, sweet, acid
> and bitter. Or will you now say that alcohol cleans off the smell cells at
> the back of the nose? Not to me.
>
> You've just joined my twit filter.


Thank you.
  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
> Salut/Hi Michael Scarpitti,
>
> le/on 6 Sep 2004 18:56:36 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>
> Dana said
> >> try drinking a wine slowly over a period of
> >> 15-30 minutes without eating food at the same time. It would
> >> be exceptional if you didn't notice a change in the wine itself.

>
> >That's because the alcohol cleans off your tongue.

>
> Rubbish.
>
> The whole world is out of step except you.


Have you considered the possibility that you and the others are mistaken?

> You deny the validity of all
> theose who have politely suggested that you might be mistaken and you come
> up with nonsense statements.
>
> In case you didn't know, the tongue has nothing to do with the subtleties of
> wine tasting. All you can _taste_ as opposed to smell, is salt, sweet, acid
> and bitter. Or will you now say that alcohol cleans off the smell cells at
> the back of the nose? Not to me.
>
> You've just joined my twit filter.


Thank you.
  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Ian Hoare wrote:

> I'd go further, Vino. I don't think I've ever met a red wine which didn't
> improve with some exposure to air - and I'm not talking about opening the
> bottle a couple of hours before and leaving it, but by decanting/carafing. I
> know of many white wines which do too. For example, many serious white
> burgundy makers decant their wines before serving them, as do several of the
> best Bergerac wine makers. I can't speak to what the bordelais do, as I
> don't often taste white Bordeaux at the property. I have doubts about
> whether German whites do, but I've had some Gruner Veltliners which
> benefitted by it (right Michael P?).


If a wine absolutely must breath, I will give it artificial resperation
once I have the glass up to my mouth ( strike that....it should read,
once I have the bottle up to my mouth )


  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
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Ian Hoare wrote:

> I'd go further, Vino. I don't think I've ever met a red wine which didn't
> improve with some exposure to air - and I'm not talking about opening the
> bottle a couple of hours before and leaving it, but by decanting/carafing. I
> know of many white wines which do too. For example, many serious white
> burgundy makers decant their wines before serving them, as do several of the
> best Bergerac wine makers. I can't speak to what the bordelais do, as I
> don't often taste white Bordeaux at the property. I have doubts about
> whether German whites do, but I've had some Gruner Veltliners which
> benefitted by it (right Michael P?).


If a wine absolutely must breath, I will give it artificial resperation
once I have the glass up to my mouth ( strike that....it should read,
once I have the bottle up to my mouth )
  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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Dana Myers > wrote in message . com>...
> Michael Scarpitti wrote:
>
> > Yes, precisely! Those who claim a second bottle tastes better because
> > it was opened longer are refuted by my experience that a newly-opened
> > second bottle of the same wine ALWAYS tastes better than the beginning
> > of the first bottle of the same wine.

>
> Who claimed that the second bottle tastes better because
> it was open longer?
>
> > My claim is that if you open two bottles of the same wine at the same
> > time and begin drinking the second after at least an hour, the second
> > will taste better than the first one did when it was first opened. If
> > you open the second bottle after at least an hour after the first, it
> > STILL will taste bertter than the beginning of the first bottle,
> > because of the happenings in your mouth caused by drinking the wine,
> > not by aeration.

>
> Sure. On this we agree. Happenings in your mouth, happenings
> in your head, and happenings in the glass, they're all part of
> the end result.
>
> > In other words, aeration has nothing to do with it.

>
> That's where we're missing world-peace. Aeration mostly
> certainly influences a wine, and 22 years of wine appreciation
> has taught me that a little exposure to air is often good,
> too much exposure to is usually bad - independent of the other
> effects you mention.
>
> These effects are not exclusive.
>
> > How do I know? I have had several bottles of the same wine many times,
> > and the second ALWAYS tastes batter than the first, no matter when it
> > is opened.

>
> Sure. I've noticed that when I taste wine without expelling it,
> all of the wines start tasting better as time goes on. ;-)


Yes, indeedy! My main point was that the elaborate 'breathing ritual'
that some people go through is baseless.


>
> Dana

  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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Decanting is one of the most important decisions one must make when opening a
bottle of wine, for it surely does change the wine, although those changes
range from trivial and often all but undetectable in very young wines to
profound and potentially destructive in very old wines.

Decanting allows some unpleasant aromas and 'bottle' stinks' to blow off. To
those insensitive to TCA, these can seem like a corked wine - I have seen
several good bottles discarded because the person that opened it smelled
something unpleasant and assumed that it was corked, not knowing the
difference. Of course if it is Burgundy, the stink may be all part of the
fun....;-)

With some young wines the oxidation reactions that begin when you aerate and
decant can soften the wine.

In wines such as Port and certain Nebbiolo based wines, these reactions need at
least several hours to bring the wine to it's best drinking point.

In some older wines, you may find that the whole process takes not hours but
minutes. I have had 1981 Bordeaux crash over a couple of hours and I have seen
80 year old Bordeaux show beautifully - but only for a 10 - 15 minute span
before deteriorating.

I haven't been following this thread, but if I am correct in stating that
someone thought that the chemical reactions promoted by aeration have no effect
on the smell and taste of a wine, they are incorrect, perhaps through
inexperience or inability to detect the differences.

And food will definitely affect how one perceives a wine as well. If the wine
is the focus then no food, initially at least, is best. You can then decide
whether the wine is best appreciated alone (as in the case of old Rieslings,
dessert wines and ancient red Burgs) or with food, which can blunt the tannins
and acids of a younger wine.



  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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Decanting is one of the most important decisions one must make when opening a
bottle of wine, for it surely does change the wine, although those changes
range from trivial and often all but undetectable in very young wines to
profound and potentially destructive in very old wines.

Decanting allows some unpleasant aromas and 'bottle' stinks' to blow off. To
those insensitive to TCA, these can seem like a corked wine - I have seen
several good bottles discarded because the person that opened it smelled
something unpleasant and assumed that it was corked, not knowing the
difference. Of course if it is Burgundy, the stink may be all part of the
fun....;-)

With some young wines the oxidation reactions that begin when you aerate and
decant can soften the wine.

In wines such as Port and certain Nebbiolo based wines, these reactions need at
least several hours to bring the wine to it's best drinking point.

In some older wines, you may find that the whole process takes not hours but
minutes. I have had 1981 Bordeaux crash over a couple of hours and I have seen
80 year old Bordeaux show beautifully - but only for a 10 - 15 minute span
before deteriorating.

I haven't been following this thread, but if I am correct in stating that
someone thought that the chemical reactions promoted by aeration have no effect
on the smell and taste of a wine, they are incorrect, perhaps through
inexperience or inability to detect the differences.

And food will definitely affect how one perceives a wine as well. If the wine
is the focus then no food, initially at least, is best. You can then decide
whether the wine is best appreciated alone (as in the case of old Rieslings,
dessert wines and ancient red Burgs) or with food, which can blunt the tannins
and acids of a younger wine.

  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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ojunk (Bill Spohn) wrote in message >...

Of course aeration has an effect: bad. That's why I keep the cork in
after opening. My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not
that breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
perhaps, for a few seconds.


> Decanting is one of the most important decisions one must make when opening a
> bottle of wine, for it surely does change the wine, although those changes
> range from trivial and often all but undetectable in very young wines to
> profound and potentially destructive in very old wines.
>
> Decanting allows some unpleasant aromas and 'bottle' stinks' to blow off. To
> those insensitive to TCA, these can seem like a corked wine - I have seen
> several good bottles discarded because the person that opened it smelled
> something unpleasant and assumed that it was corked, not knowing the
> difference. Of course if it is Burgundy, the stink may be all part of the
> fun....;-)
>
> With some young wines the oxidation reactions that begin when you aerate and
> decant can soften the wine.
>
> In wines such as Port and certain Nebbiolo based wines, these reactions need at
> least several hours to bring the wine to it's best drinking point.
>
> In some older wines, you may find that the whole process takes not hours but
> minutes. I have had 1981 Bordeaux crash over a couple of hours and I have seen
> 80 year old Bordeaux show beautifully - but only for a 10 - 15 minute span
> before deteriorating.
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but if I am correct in stating that
> someone thought that the chemical reactions promoted by aeration have no effect
> on the smell and taste of a wine, they are incorrect, perhaps through
> inexperience or inability to detect the differences.
>
> And food will definitely affect how one perceives a wine as well. If the wine
> is the focus then no food, initially at least, is best. You can then decide
> whether the wine is best appreciated alone (as in the case of old Rieslings,
> dessert wines and ancient red Burgs) or with food, which can blunt the tannins
> and acids of a younger wine.

  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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ojunk (Bill Spohn) wrote in message >...

Of course aeration has an effect: bad. That's why I keep the cork in
after opening. My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not
that breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
perhaps, for a few seconds.


> Decanting is one of the most important decisions one must make when opening a
> bottle of wine, for it surely does change the wine, although those changes
> range from trivial and often all but undetectable in very young wines to
> profound and potentially destructive in very old wines.
>
> Decanting allows some unpleasant aromas and 'bottle' stinks' to blow off. To
> those insensitive to TCA, these can seem like a corked wine - I have seen
> several good bottles discarded because the person that opened it smelled
> something unpleasant and assumed that it was corked, not knowing the
> difference. Of course if it is Burgundy, the stink may be all part of the
> fun....;-)
>
> With some young wines the oxidation reactions that begin when you aerate and
> decant can soften the wine.
>
> In wines such as Port and certain Nebbiolo based wines, these reactions need at
> least several hours to bring the wine to it's best drinking point.
>
> In some older wines, you may find that the whole process takes not hours but
> minutes. I have had 1981 Bordeaux crash over a couple of hours and I have seen
> 80 year old Bordeaux show beautifully - but only for a 10 - 15 minute span
> before deteriorating.
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but if I am correct in stating that
> someone thought that the chemical reactions promoted by aeration have no effect
> on the smell and taste of a wine, they are incorrect, perhaps through
> inexperience or inability to detect the differences.
>
> And food will definitely affect how one perceives a wine as well. If the wine
> is the focus then no food, initially at least, is best. You can then decide
> whether the wine is best appreciated alone (as in the case of old Rieslings,
> dessert wines and ancient red Burgs) or with food, which can blunt the tannins
> and acids of a younger wine.

  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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"Michael Scarpitti" wrote an opinion

> Of course aeration has an effect: bad.
> That's why I keep the cork in after opening.
> My argument was that you SHOULD NO
> 'breathe' wine, not that breathing it has no effect.
> It has no GOOD effect, except, perhaps, for a few seconds.


Michael - you have gone to great lengths to state a subjective opinion.

I will be the first to defend your right, not only to have an opinion, but
to have the freedom to state/publish/broadcast that opinion.

But, consider this - What if that opinion was nonsense?

Not just a little off the mark, but absolute dribble.

Would you like to discuss matters in an open and courteous forum (which
a.f.w. is 99% of the time) or are you going to steadfastly hold on to an
erroneous argument - just for the sake of it?

Because, respectfully, that is the current situation.

Some extremely knowledgeable people from all walks of life, from many
countries around the world, with experience in wine far, far more expansive
than yours have tried to explain that the decanting and/or aeration of a
wine is a very important decision which one must make.

Almost everyone is agreement - the wine will surely change.

However, you are the only one trying to defend an argument that all change
is bad.

This is total crap - but you are unable or, probably more accurately
unwilling to accept this.

So, enough is enough; you have stated your case; you are unwilling to even
entertain the fact that your own experience is very limited and that you
have neither the experience or ability to detect these changes, and in
reality you know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger-all about the wonderful world of wine.

Go back to making your racist comments re women tennis players or the finer
points of photography if you cannot contribute in a positive and polite
manner in this newsgroup.

--

st.helier


  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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"Michael Scarpitti" wrote an opinion

> Of course aeration has an effect: bad.
> That's why I keep the cork in after opening.
> My argument was that you SHOULD NO
> 'breathe' wine, not that breathing it has no effect.
> It has no GOOD effect, except, perhaps, for a few seconds.


Michael - you have gone to great lengths to state a subjective opinion.

I will be the first to defend your right, not only to have an opinion, but
to have the freedom to state/publish/broadcast that opinion.

But, consider this - What if that opinion was nonsense?

Not just a little off the mark, but absolute dribble.

Would you like to discuss matters in an open and courteous forum (which
a.f.w. is 99% of the time) or are you going to steadfastly hold on to an
erroneous argument - just for the sake of it?

Because, respectfully, that is the current situation.

Some extremely knowledgeable people from all walks of life, from many
countries around the world, with experience in wine far, far more expansive
than yours have tried to explain that the decanting and/or aeration of a
wine is a very important decision which one must make.

Almost everyone is agreement - the wine will surely change.

However, you are the only one trying to defend an argument that all change
is bad.

This is total crap - but you are unable or, probably more accurately
unwilling to accept this.

So, enough is enough; you have stated your case; you are unwilling to even
entertain the fact that your own experience is very limited and that you
have neither the experience or ability to detect these changes, and in
reality you know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger-all about the wonderful world of wine.

Go back to making your racist comments re women tennis players or the finer
points of photography if you cannot contribute in a positive and polite
manner in this newsgroup.

--

st.helier


  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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> My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not
>that breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
>perhaps, for a few seconds.


Don't know what you have been drinking but many wines open up and improve over
a period that ranges from a half hour to a day or more.


  #101 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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> My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not
>that breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
>perhaps, for a few seconds.


Don't know what you have been drinking but many wines open up and improve over
a period that ranges from a half hour to a day or more.
  #102 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote:

> I have doubts about whether German whites do, but I've had some
> Gruner Veltliners which benefitted by it (right Michael P?).


Yep.

M.
  #104 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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"st.helier" > wrote in message news:<1094691733.218640@ftpsrv1>...
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote an opinion
>
> > Of course aeration has an effect: bad.
> > That's why I keep the cork in after opening.
> > My argument was that you SHOULD NO
> > 'breathe' wine, not that breathing it has no effect.
> > It has no GOOD effect, except, perhaps, for a few seconds.

>
> Michael - you have gone to great lengths to state a subjective opinion.


It has been my experience that oxidation over any length of time is
bad for wine. (It's also bad for developer.)

You may find that opening a bottle lets the wine cast off a little
mustiness, but that's all. It should be recorked immediately.

It's really rather simple:
Oxygen is bad.


> I will be the first to defend your right, not only to have an opinion, but
> to have the freedom to state/publish/broadcast that opinion.
>
> But, consider this - What if that opinion was nonsense?


What if the opinions of those who advocate breating are nonsense?

>
> Not just a little off the mark, but absolute dribble.


Likewise with 'breathers'.

> Would you like to discuss matters in an open and courteous forum (which
> a.f.w. is 99% of the time) or are you going to steadfastly hold on to an
> erroneous argument - just for the sake of it?


It's not erroneous.

> Because, respectfully, that is the current situation.


Have you considered the possibility that you're mistaken?

> Some extremely knowledgeable people from all walks of life, from many
> countries around the world, with experience in wine far, far more expansive
> than yours have tried to explain that the decanting and/or aeration of a
> wine is a very important decision which one must make.


I have enjoyed many, many, many, wines from all around Italy, Sicily,
and Sardinia.

Have you ever tasted Giacomo Bologna's Barberas? Fabulous!

Grignolino from Bruno Giacosa? Chionetti's Dolcetto di Dogliani?
Valentini's Trebbiano di Abruzzo? Cosimo Taurino's Patrigliano?

etc. etc. etc.

> Almost everyone is agreement - the wine will surely change.


I agree it will change. It will go bad.

> However, you are the only one trying to defend an argument that all change
> is bad.
>
> This is total crap - but you are unable or, probably more accurately
> unwilling to accept this.


Because oxidation ruins everything.

> So, enough is enough; you have stated your case; you are unwilling to even
> entertain the fact that your own experience is very limited and that you
> have neither the experience or ability to detect these changes, and in
> reality you know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger-all about the wonderful world of wine.


My experience is not 'limited'. See above.

> Go back to making your racist comments re women tennis players or the finer
> points of photography if you cannot contribute in a positive and polite
> manner in this newsgroup.

  #105 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Scarpitti
 
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"st.helier" > wrote in message news:<1094691733.218640@ftpsrv1>...
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote an opinion
>
> > Of course aeration has an effect: bad.
> > That's why I keep the cork in after opening.
> > My argument was that you SHOULD NO
> > 'breathe' wine, not that breathing it has no effect.
> > It has no GOOD effect, except, perhaps, for a few seconds.

>
> Michael - you have gone to great lengths to state a subjective opinion.


It has been my experience that oxidation over any length of time is
bad for wine. (It's also bad for developer.)

You may find that opening a bottle lets the wine cast off a little
mustiness, but that's all. It should be recorked immediately.

It's really rather simple:
Oxygen is bad.


> I will be the first to defend your right, not only to have an opinion, but
> to have the freedom to state/publish/broadcast that opinion.
>
> But, consider this - What if that opinion was nonsense?


What if the opinions of those who advocate breating are nonsense?

>
> Not just a little off the mark, but absolute dribble.


Likewise with 'breathers'.

> Would you like to discuss matters in an open and courteous forum (which
> a.f.w. is 99% of the time) or are you going to steadfastly hold on to an
> erroneous argument - just for the sake of it?


It's not erroneous.

> Because, respectfully, that is the current situation.


Have you considered the possibility that you're mistaken?

> Some extremely knowledgeable people from all walks of life, from many
> countries around the world, with experience in wine far, far more expansive
> than yours have tried to explain that the decanting and/or aeration of a
> wine is a very important decision which one must make.


I have enjoyed many, many, many, wines from all around Italy, Sicily,
and Sardinia.

Have you ever tasted Giacomo Bologna's Barberas? Fabulous!

Grignolino from Bruno Giacosa? Chionetti's Dolcetto di Dogliani?
Valentini's Trebbiano di Abruzzo? Cosimo Taurino's Patrigliano?

etc. etc. etc.

> Almost everyone is agreement - the wine will surely change.


I agree it will change. It will go bad.

> However, you are the only one trying to defend an argument that all change
> is bad.
>
> This is total crap - but you are unable or, probably more accurately
> unwilling to accept this.


Because oxidation ruins everything.

> So, enough is enough; you have stated your case; you are unwilling to even
> entertain the fact that your own experience is very limited and that you
> have neither the experience or ability to detect these changes, and in
> reality you know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger-all about the wonderful world of wine.


My experience is not 'limited'. See above.

> Go back to making your racist comments re women tennis players or the finer
> points of photography if you cannot contribute in a positive and polite
> manner in this newsgroup.



  #111 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>Bill, do not feed the trolls.

I haven't been following the thread, but from recent repetitive responses I am
coming to the conclusion that you are correct.

I wonder why anyone would bother - this group has many people that have opened
more than their share of wine, tasted without any food and monitored over time,
who know that what he is saying is drivel. Oh well.

I shan't respond any further.
  #112 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>Bill, do not feed the trolls.

I haven't been following the thread, but from recent repetitive responses I am
coming to the conclusion that you are correct.

I wonder why anyone would bother - this group has many people that have opened
more than their share of wine, tasted without any food and monitored over time,
who know that what he is saying is drivel. Oh well.

I shan't respond any further.
  #116 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Pronay wrote:

>>>My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not that
>>>breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
>>>perhaps, for a few seconds.


>>Don't know what you have been drinking but many wines open up
>>and improve over a period that ranges from a half hour to a day
>>or more.

>
>
> Bill, do not feed the trolls.


Actually I believe in politeness to the point that it hurts.
A lot of years ago I read an article in a wine magazine that said that
it was necessary to drink wines like Chat La Tour to educate your
tastes so you would know what good wine was supposed to taste like.
I thought at the time that the author was the biggest snob in the
world. When I drank my first La Tour, I no longer disagreed with that
position. This latest "troll" must be drinking Thunderbird to have to
strange opinions that he does but maybe he is worth educating and
saving. If he shows up in your restaurant one day, you hope like hell
that he will have learned what good wine tastes like.

I got called a troll and a newbie in alt.history this week. I have been
posting to that group for four years and the guy that said that has only
been on the internet for one year. He had a different opinion that mine.

I will try not to feed him more than the required daily amount.
Bill

  #117 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Pronay wrote:

>>>My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not that
>>>breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
>>>perhaps, for a few seconds.


>>Don't know what you have been drinking but many wines open up
>>and improve over a period that ranges from a half hour to a day
>>or more.

>
>
> Bill, do not feed the trolls.


Actually I believe in politeness to the point that it hurts.
A lot of years ago I read an article in a wine magazine that said that
it was necessary to drink wines like Chat La Tour to educate your
tastes so you would know what good wine was supposed to taste like.
I thought at the time that the author was the biggest snob in the
world. When I drank my first La Tour, I no longer disagreed with that
position. This latest "troll" must be drinking Thunderbird to have to
strange opinions that he does but maybe he is worth educating and
saving. If he shows up in your restaurant one day, you hope like hell
that he will have learned what good wine tastes like.

I got called a troll and a newbie in alt.history this week. I have been
posting to that group for four years and the guy that said that has only
been on the internet for one year. He had a different opinion that mine.

I will try not to feed him more than the required daily amount.
Bill

  #118 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Loftin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Pronay wrote:

>>>My argument was that you SHOULD NO 'breathe' wine, not that
>>>breathing it has no effect. It has no GOOD effect, except,
>>>perhaps, for a few seconds.


>>Don't know what you have been drinking but many wines open up
>>and improve over a period that ranges from a half hour to a day
>>or more.

>
>
> Bill, do not feed the trolls.


Actually I believe in politeness to the point that it hurts.
A lot of years ago I read an article in a wine magazine that said that
it was necessary to drink wines like Chat La Tour to educate your
tastes so you would know what good wine was supposed to taste like.
I thought at the time that the author was the biggest snob in the
world. When I drank my first La Tour, I no longer disagreed with that
position. This latest "troll" must be drinking Thunderbird to have to
strange opinions that he does but maybe he is worth educating and
saving. If he shows up in your restaurant one day, you hope like hell
that he will have learned what good wine tastes like.

I got called a troll and a newbie in alt.history this week. I have been
posting to that group for four years and the guy that said that has only
been on the internet for one year. He had a different opinion that mine.

I will try not to feed him more than the required daily amount.
Bill

  #119 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message.........

> I have enjoyed many, many, many, wines from all around
> Italy, Sicily and Sardinia.


but tried to claim..........

> My experience is not 'limited'.


Huh?????????????????????????????????????


In another thread, he then wrote

> "I know absoltely nothing about wines that are not Italian."




Mr. Scarpitti, we have now arrived at the crux of the matter.

If you know NOTHING about wines which are not Italian, then in fact YOU KNOW
NOTHING!!!!!!!

You are a prejudiced racist, with an acute case of FITH disease.

Go away, troll.

--

st.helier


  #120 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message.........

> I have enjoyed many, many, many, wines from all around
> Italy, Sicily and Sardinia.


but tried to claim..........

> My experience is not 'limited'.


Huh?????????????????????????????????????


In another thread, he then wrote

> "I know absoltely nothing about wines that are not Italian."




Mr. Scarpitti, we have now arrived at the crux of the matter.

If you know NOTHING about wines which are not Italian, then in fact YOU KNOW
NOTHING!!!!!!!

You are a prejudiced racist, with an acute case of FITH disease.

Go away, troll.

--

st.helier




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