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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Leo Bueno
 
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Default The 12 premium cultivars


http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
be premium.

Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?

I suspect the list includes:
1. Chardonnay
2. Riesling
3. Sauvignon Blanc
4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
5. Cabernet Sauvignon
6. Merlot
7. Syrah/Shiraz
8. Sangiovese


--
=================================================
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
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  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
enoavidh
 
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Default

Leo Bueno > wrote in
:

>
> http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
> Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
> countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
> vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
> regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
> be premium.
>
> Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>



Pinot noir? Grenache, perhaps? Grüner Veltliner!

d
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Rasimus
 
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Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese


And, with the caveat that the list is not in order of priority:

9. Zinfandel
10. Pinot Noir
11. Tempranillo
12. Petit Syrah, Nebbiolo, Grenache, Cabernet
Franc, Muller-Thurgau, Sylvaner......

Nah, too tough to do. Too locality dependent. Too individual taste
focussed. Why not just enjoy?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Rasimus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese


And, with the caveat that the list is not in order of priority:

9. Zinfandel
10. Pinot Noir
11. Tempranillo
12. Petit Syrah, Nebbiolo, Grenache, Cabernet
Franc, Muller-Thurgau, Sylvaner......

Nah, too tough to do. Too locality dependent. Too individual taste
focussed. Why not just enjoy?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>
>http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>be premium.
>
>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese


9. Muscat Blanc
10. Pinot Noir
11. Gewurztraminer
12. Chenin Blanc

These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
international varieties :

Pinot Blanc
Cabernet Franc
Gamay
Semillon
Grenache
Viognier
Silvaner
Tempranillo


So what about the others ? nebbiolo, primitivo, mourvedre, marsanne,
vermentino, palomino, tannat, touriga nacional, furmint, gruener
veltliner... Well, these are all truly great grapes, but occuring in a
localized way.

You see it all depends on your criteria for considering a variety
important. Above we went for the international varieties, but if you
now asked which are the 12 grape varieties that result in the world's
top wines, my answer would have been :

Chardonnay
Riesling
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Syrah
Sangiovese
Pinot Noir
Chenin Blanc
Grenache
Tempranillo
Furmint
Nebbiolo

Cheers




Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>
>http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>be premium.
>
>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese


9. Muscat Blanc
10. Pinot Noir
11. Gewurztraminer
12. Chenin Blanc

These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
international varieties :

Pinot Blanc
Cabernet Franc
Gamay
Semillon
Grenache
Viognier
Silvaner
Tempranillo


So what about the others ? nebbiolo, primitivo, mourvedre, marsanne,
vermentino, palomino, tannat, touriga nacional, furmint, gruener
veltliner... Well, these are all truly great grapes, but occuring in a
localized way.

You see it all depends on your criteria for considering a variety
important. Above we went for the international varieties, but if you
now asked which are the 12 grape varieties that result in the world's
top wines, my answer would have been :

Chardonnay
Riesling
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Syrah
Sangiovese
Pinot Noir
Chenin Blanc
Grenache
Tempranillo
Furmint
Nebbiolo

Cheers




Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default

hey, what about nebbiolo!
Dale

Dale Williams
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  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default

hey, what about nebbiolo!
Dale

Dale Williams
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  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default

>Above we went for the international varieties, but if you
>now asked which are the 12 grape varieties that result in the world's
>top wines, my answer would have been :
>
>Chardonnay
>Riesling
>Cabernet Sauvignon
>Merlot
>Syrah
>Sangiovese
>Pinot Noir
>Chenin Blanc
>Grenache
>Tempranillo
>Furmint
>Nebbiolo
>
>

Oops, Mike, I replied without seeing 2/3s of your post (odd spacing on other
newsreader). Not a bad list, for that set of criteria, but I'm curious -
furmint before gewurztraminer or gruner veltliner?

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>Above we went for the international varieties, but if you
>now asked which are the 12 grape varieties that result in the world's
>top wines, my answer would have been :
>
>Chardonnay
>Riesling
>Cabernet Sauvignon
>Merlot
>Syrah
>Sangiovese
>Pinot Noir
>Chenin Blanc
>Grenache
>Tempranillo
>Furmint
>Nebbiolo
>
>

Oops, Mike, I replied without seeing 2/3s of your post (odd spacing on other
newsreader). Not a bad list, for that set of criteria, but I'm curious -
furmint before gewurztraminer or gruner veltliner?

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sammy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
> Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
> countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
> vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
> regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
> be premium.
>
> Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
> I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese
>
>

Hi Leo and all,

the word 'premium' presents something of a problem for me because it's hard
for me to decide whether a grape is good enough for that title. For example,
I'm pretty certain that Grenache claims the biggest part of the globe under
it (for black grape) but whether or not it's a 'premium' variety is another
question. In my opinion it is: some of my very favourite wines are Grenache
based but I think that the bulk of those vines are destined to produce thin,
uninteresting wines in, for example, La Mancha.
Airen, which can claim the most land under vine for white grape and all
Vitis Vinifera, on the other hand never produces anything but dull wine.
Well, I've never had one or even heard of one. And as such won't go on my
list.

Here's mine, based on land under vine and being good grapes :-).

1. Grenache
2. Carignan
3. Merlot
4. Cabernet Sauvignon
5. Mourvedre
6. Tempranillo
7. Chardonnay
8. Sangiovese
9. Cinsault
10. Muscat
11. Pinot Noir
12. Sauvignon Blanc

Airen, Ugni Blanc, Rkatsitli, Bobal, Laski Rizling, Catarratto, Aligote and
Chenin could fit here if I liked them.
Riesling, Carmenere and Semillon can't, despite extra love from me.

I hope this helps ;-)
Sammy



  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sammy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
> Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
> countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
> vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
> regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
> be premium.
>
> Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
> I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese
>
>

Hi Leo and all,

the word 'premium' presents something of a problem for me because it's hard
for me to decide whether a grape is good enough for that title. For example,
I'm pretty certain that Grenache claims the biggest part of the globe under
it (for black grape) but whether or not it's a 'premium' variety is another
question. In my opinion it is: some of my very favourite wines are Grenache
based but I think that the bulk of those vines are destined to produce thin,
uninteresting wines in, for example, La Mancha.
Airen, which can claim the most land under vine for white grape and all
Vitis Vinifera, on the other hand never produces anything but dull wine.
Well, I've never had one or even heard of one. And as such won't go on my
list.

Here's mine, based on land under vine and being good grapes :-).

1. Grenache
2. Carignan
3. Merlot
4. Cabernet Sauvignon
5. Mourvedre
6. Tempranillo
7. Chardonnay
8. Sangiovese
9. Cinsault
10. Muscat
11. Pinot Noir
12. Sauvignon Blanc

Airen, Ugni Blanc, Rkatsitli, Bobal, Laski Rizling, Catarratto, Aligote and
Chenin could fit here if I liked them.
Riesling, Carmenere and Semillon can't, despite extra love from me.

I hope this helps ;-)
Sammy



  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>
>http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>be premium.
>
>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese
>


Personally, I find this whole exercise (and the related one on
regions) less than useless. For example, why some arbitrary number
such as 12 that qualify as "premium" (whatever that means, and clearly
it means different things to different people, which should not be
surprising) varieties? As far as regions are concerned, other posters
have echoed my thoughts very well. I understand the need to simplify
things for people that are just getting started learning about
anything, including wine. But there is a (admittedly fine) line
between simplification and "dumbing down" subject matter. I think
these threads fall on the latter side of that line.

Just my opinion.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>
>http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>be premium.
>
>Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>
>I suspect the list includes:
> 1. Chardonnay
> 2. Riesling
> 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> 6. Merlot
> 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> 8. Sangiovese
>


Personally, I find this whole exercise (and the related one on
regions) less than useless. For example, why some arbitrary number
such as 12 that qualify as "premium" (whatever that means, and clearly
it means different things to different people, which should not be
surprising) varieties? As far as regions are concerned, other posters
have echoed my thoughts very well. I understand the need to simplify
things for people that are just getting started learning about
anything, including wine. But there is a (admittedly fine) line
between simplification and "dumbing down" subject matter. I think
these threads fall on the latter side of that line.

Just my opinion.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
> >Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
> >countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
> >vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
> >regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
> >be premium.
> >
> >Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
> >
> >I suspect the list includes:
> > 1. Chardonnay
> > 2. Riesling
> > 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> > 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> > 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> > 6. Merlot
> > 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> > 8. Sangiovese


> 9. Muscat Blanc
> 10. Pinot Noir
> 11. Gewurztraminer
> 12. Chenin Blanc
>
> These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
> international varieties :
>
> Pinot Blanc
> Cabernet Franc
> Gamay
> Semillon
> Grenache
> Viognier
> Silvaner
> Tempranillo


FWIW, I'd demote Chenin Blanc and Muscat Blanc to 2nd tier and elevate Pinot
Blanc and Cabernet Franc to 1st tier. And what about crosses, such as
Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay? Do
these, strictly speaking, belong in the first tier, or is this merely a
popularity contest?

Tom S


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
> >Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
> >countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
> >vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
> >regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
> >be premium.
> >
> >Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
> >
> >I suspect the list includes:
> > 1. Chardonnay
> > 2. Riesling
> > 3. Sauvignon Blanc
> > 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
> > 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
> > 6. Merlot
> > 7. Syrah/Shiraz
> > 8. Sangiovese


> 9. Muscat Blanc
> 10. Pinot Noir
> 11. Gewurztraminer
> 12. Chenin Blanc
>
> These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
> international varieties :
>
> Pinot Blanc
> Cabernet Franc
> Gamay
> Semillon
> Grenache
> Viognier
> Silvaner
> Tempranillo


FWIW, I'd demote Chenin Blanc and Muscat Blanc to 2nd tier and elevate Pinot
Blanc and Cabernet Franc to 1st tier. And what about crosses, such as
Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay? Do
these, strictly speaking, belong in the first tier, or is this merely a
popularity contest?

Tom S


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:58:38 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>> >Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>> >countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>> >vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>> >regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>> >be premium.
>> >
>> >Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>> >
>> >I suspect the list includes:
>> > 1. Chardonnay
>> > 2. Riesling
>> > 3. Sauvignon Blanc
>> > 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
>> > 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
>> > 6. Merlot
>> > 7. Syrah/Shiraz
>> > 8. Sangiovese

>
>> 9. Muscat Blanc
>> 10. Pinot Noir
>> 11. Gewurztraminer
>> 12. Chenin Blanc
>>
>> These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
>> international varieties :
>>
>> Pinot Blanc
>> Cabernet Franc
>> Gamay
>> Semillon
>> Grenache
>> Viognier
>> Silvaner
>> Tempranillo

>
>FWIW, I'd demote Chenin Blanc and Muscat Blanc to 2nd tier


Again, I was looking for those grapes that are used everywhere, or at
least in many places,... I agree that Muscat is not a top performer,
but I would insist on Chenin being a top tier grape. Too many fabulous
wines come from it. And yes, a lot of crap too, as in all cases...

and elevate Pinot
>Blanc and Cabernet Franc to 1st tier.


Hmmm, I like them too, but not international varieties really

>And what about crosses, such as
>Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay?


All grapes are crosses when you come down to it. I would not consider
the above 3 as "crosses" in the normal sense.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:58:38 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >http://www.fosters.com.au/wine/histo...ry_of_wine.asp
>> >Since these early times the humble vine can be found growing in most
>> >countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>> >vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>> >regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>> >be premium.
>> >
>> >Which are the 12 "premium" varieties?
>> >
>> >I suspect the list includes:
>> > 1. Chardonnay
>> > 2. Riesling
>> > 3. Sauvignon Blanc
>> > 4. Pinot Gris/Grigio
>> > 5. Cabernet Sauvignon
>> > 6. Merlot
>> > 7. Syrah/Shiraz
>> > 8. Sangiovese

>
>> 9. Muscat Blanc
>> 10. Pinot Noir
>> 11. Gewurztraminer
>> 12. Chenin Blanc
>>
>> These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2
>> international varieties :
>>
>> Pinot Blanc
>> Cabernet Franc
>> Gamay
>> Semillon
>> Grenache
>> Viognier
>> Silvaner
>> Tempranillo

>
>FWIW, I'd demote Chenin Blanc and Muscat Blanc to 2nd tier


Again, I was looking for those grapes that are used everywhere, or at
least in many places,... I agree that Muscat is not a top performer,
but I would insist on Chenin being a top tier grape. Too many fabulous
wines come from it. And yes, a lot of crap too, as in all cases...

and elevate Pinot
>Blanc and Cabernet Franc to 1st tier.


Hmmm, I like them too, but not international varieties really

>And what about crosses, such as
>Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay?


All grapes are crosses when you come down to it. I would not consider
the above 3 as "crosses" in the normal sense.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:58:38 GMT, "Tom S" >
> wrote:
> >And what about crosses, such as
> >Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay?

>
> All grapes are crosses when you come down to it. I would not consider
> the above 3 as "crosses" in the normal sense.


Perhaps not Chardonnay, whose origins are somewhat obscure, but include a
rather ordinary grape (Gouais Blanc IIRC) - but what about Cabernet
Sauvignon, which is well known to be a cross of Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
Blanc? Surely, both parents are worthy of top tier status.

I suppose this all begs the question: What _new_ varietal crosses could
have potential for greatness? Rather boggles the mind...

Tom S


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:58:38 GMT, "Tom S" >
> wrote:
> >And what about crosses, such as
> >Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay?

>
> All grapes are crosses when you come down to it. I would not consider
> the above 3 as "crosses" in the normal sense.


Perhaps not Chardonnay, whose origins are somewhat obscure, but include a
rather ordinary grape (Gouais Blanc IIRC) - but what about Cabernet
Sauvignon, which is well known to be a cross of Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
Blanc? Surely, both parents are worthy of top tier status.

I suppose this all begs the question: What _new_ varietal crosses could
have potential for greatness? Rather boggles the mind...

Tom S


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:00:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:


>>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>>be premium.


Really? "are considered" begs several questions.

1 Why 12?
2 By whom?
3 on what criteria?


>Personally, I find this whole exercise (and the related one on
>regions) less than useless.


Yup, I agree. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Leo is using us
to do all his research for his wine class. This is smelling increasingly
like Mario Desiderio (not suggestying they're one and the same, by the way)

For me "premium" has quality implications, and any list which includes Pinot
Gris and not Pinot Noir has to belong to cloud cuckooland.

For what it's worth, (and trying NOT to be either country or region biased)
and in no particular order, would you go along with this?

6 whites

Riesling
Chardonnay
Sauvignon Blanc/Gris
Sémillon or else Pinot Gris
Chenin Blanc
Gruner Veltliner

6 reds

Pinot Noir,
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Syrah/Shiraz
Sangiovese
Tempranilla

which goes to show how ridiculous the exercise is, as it leaves out many
very great wines worldwide. How can one leave out:-

Tannat. Ch Montus Prestige (frequently highly placed against Bdx in
competitions) and many good wines from Uruguay)

Malbec - Wines from Cahors, component in Bdx, Argentina

Zinfandel - probably the mst typical California grape

Gewurztraminer, excellent in Alsace (especially for difficult foods) and
elsewhere.

Viognier, real class whites

Furmint for what are amongst the worlds best sweet wines.

Nope. Silly exercise.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
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Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:00:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:01:20 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:


>>countries in a wide variety of climates. The primary species is Vitis
>>vinifera and of the thousands of cultivars only around 30 are
>>regularly cultivated and of these only a dozen or so are considered to
>>be premium.


Really? "are considered" begs several questions.

1 Why 12?
2 By whom?
3 on what criteria?


>Personally, I find this whole exercise (and the related one on
>regions) less than useless.


Yup, I agree. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Leo is using us
to do all his research for his wine class. This is smelling increasingly
like Mario Desiderio (not suggestying they're one and the same, by the way)

For me "premium" has quality implications, and any list which includes Pinot
Gris and not Pinot Noir has to belong to cloud cuckooland.

For what it's worth, (and trying NOT to be either country or region biased)
and in no particular order, would you go along with this?

6 whites

Riesling
Chardonnay
Sauvignon Blanc/Gris
Sémillon or else Pinot Gris
Chenin Blanc
Gruner Veltliner

6 reds

Pinot Noir,
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Syrah/Shiraz
Sangiovese
Tempranilla

which goes to show how ridiculous the exercise is, as it leaves out many
very great wines worldwide. How can one leave out:-

Tannat. Ch Montus Prestige (frequently highly placed against Bdx in
competitions) and many good wines from Uruguay)

Malbec - Wines from Cahors, component in Bdx, Argentina

Zinfandel - probably the mst typical California grape

Gewurztraminer, excellent in Alsace (especially for difficult foods) and
elsewhere.

Viognier, real class whites

Furmint for what are amongst the worlds best sweet wines.

Nope. Silly exercise.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Třrneskog
 
Posts: n/a
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"Sammy" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Riesling, Carmenere and Semillon can't, despite extra love from me.
>

Riesling can't?
Well, then the 2003 Hochheimer Hölle TBA from Franz Künstler at 198 Euros a
half bottle and the 2003 Kiedricher Gräfenberg TBA from Robert Weil at 230
Euros a half bottle are not premium wines..?
Sorry, Riesling is in the top tier..

I'd say for whites
Chardonnay (sigh)
Riesling
Gewurztraminer
Grüner Veltliner
Semillon
Sauvignon Blanc

and reds
Cabernet Sauvignon
Syrah
Pinot Noir
Merlot
Nebbiolo
Zinfandel (red...)

There are quite a few others occasionally giving great wine - but these
mentioned are ubiquitous... (ah well, with ezceptions :-)

Anders




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Třrneskog
 
Posts: n/a
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"Sammy" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Riesling, Carmenere and Semillon can't, despite extra love from me.
>

Riesling can't?
Well, then the 2003 Hochheimer Hölle TBA from Franz Künstler at 198 Euros a
half bottle and the 2003 Kiedricher Gräfenberg TBA from Robert Weil at 230
Euros a half bottle are not premium wines..?
Sorry, Riesling is in the top tier..

I'd say for whites
Chardonnay (sigh)
Riesling
Gewurztraminer
Grüner Veltliner
Semillon
Sauvignon Blanc

and reds
Cabernet Sauvignon
Syrah
Pinot Noir
Merlot
Nebbiolo
Zinfandel (red...)

There are quite a few others occasionally giving great wine - but these
mentioned are ubiquitous... (ah well, with ezceptions :-)

Anders


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
Posts: n/a
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I am limiting my list to only 7. However in addition to the main great
grapes, we must have some helper grapes available for Bordeaux. A poor
wine can be made from any variety of grape. Thus I rate by which grape
can produce the greatest wine when grown in the right spot by growers
who know what they are doing. The wine maker has to be top, and the
owner must be a person who aims for the best.

WHITES:
1. Furmint - A great Tokaji Essencia exceeds even a Riesling TBA in
complexity, richness, balance, ability to age, etc. Even Louis XIV
called it the king of wines when he could have anything that France had
to offer.

2. Riesling - Not far down from Furmint. The best TBA can be as complex
as Tokaji Essencia, but it usually is not quite as rich or long lasting.

3. Chenin Blanc - Despite the tons of so-so Chenin Blanc produced, the
rare late harvest sweet ones from a few select regions of the Loire can
exceed anything I have tasted from Sauternes includng Yquem. They are
more complex, richer, and last longer.

4. Chardonnay - Although it does not produce wines of the complexity,
richness, or ability to age as do the above, a top Montrachet is about
as good as you can do with a dry white wine.

RED WINES:

1. Pinot Noir - On the average, many more good Cabernet Sauvignon wines
are produced than Pinot Noirs. But at the top in the right year, La
Tache and Romanee-Conti far exceed any Bordeaux I have ever tasted in
complexity and richness of taste and smell.

2. Cabernet Sauvignon - Of course some helper grapes often are needed.
This grape needs no elaboration.

3. Merlot - Chateau Petrus is based Merlot and can be as great or
greater than most of the Bordeaux first growths based on mostly Cabernet
Sauvignon. Of course Merlot is a helper grape in many of the first
growths.



My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
Posts: n/a
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I am limiting my list to only 7. However in addition to the main great
grapes, we must have some helper grapes available for Bordeaux. A poor
wine can be made from any variety of grape. Thus I rate by which grape
can produce the greatest wine when grown in the right spot by growers
who know what they are doing. The wine maker has to be top, and the
owner must be a person who aims for the best.

WHITES:
1. Furmint - A great Tokaji Essencia exceeds even a Riesling TBA in
complexity, richness, balance, ability to age, etc. Even Louis XIV
called it the king of wines when he could have anything that France had
to offer.

2. Riesling - Not far down from Furmint. The best TBA can be as complex
as Tokaji Essencia, but it usually is not quite as rich or long lasting.

3. Chenin Blanc - Despite the tons of so-so Chenin Blanc produced, the
rare late harvest sweet ones from a few select regions of the Loire can
exceed anything I have tasted from Sauternes includng Yquem. They are
more complex, richer, and last longer.

4. Chardonnay - Although it does not produce wines of the complexity,
richness, or ability to age as do the above, a top Montrachet is about
as good as you can do with a dry white wine.

RED WINES:

1. Pinot Noir - On the average, many more good Cabernet Sauvignon wines
are produced than Pinot Noirs. But at the top in the right year, La
Tache and Romanee-Conti far exceed any Bordeaux I have ever tasted in
complexity and richness of taste and smell.

2. Cabernet Sauvignon - Of course some helper grapes often are needed.
This grape needs no elaboration.

3. Merlot - Chateau Petrus is based Merlot and can be as great or
greater than most of the Bordeaux first growths based on mostly Cabernet
Sauvignon. Of course Merlot is a helper grape in many of the first
growths.



My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
Posts: n/a
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cwdjrx, nice post.

>Furmint - A great Tokaji Essencia

Aha, this explains why Furmint made Mike T's top 12 list - I thought Tokaji was
a blend.

>
>2. Riesling - Not far down from Furmint. The best TBA can be as complex
>as Tokaji Essencia, but it usually is not quite as rich or long lasting.
>

And let's don't forget the top dry Rieslings like Clos Ste. Hune or the best
Smaragd Austrians.

>3. Chenin Blanc - Despite the tons of so-so Chenin Blanc produced, the
>rare late harvest sweet ones from a few select regions of the Loire can
>exceed anything I have tasted from Sauternes includng Yquem. They are
>more complex, richer, and last longer.
>

Again, while maybe not the equal of the top Quarts or moulleaux Vouvrays, some
great dry whites from Vouvray and Savennieres, too.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
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Dale Williams states:"Aha, this explains why Furmint made Mike T's top
12 list - I thought Tokaji was a blend."

Yes Tokaji in general can be a blend, althogh Furmint usually is the
main grape and the one most often concentrated enough by botrytis to
produce a very small amount of ultra rich juice for Essencia by free run
before the grapes are pressed. Other allowed grapes, include Harslevelu,
Sargamuskotaly( a yellow Muscat). Oremus has been allowed since 1994. A
little Chardonnay is now also grown in th region. There have been a few
Muscat Aszus at auction, but I do not think most of them are of the
quality of a Furmint based Aszu.

Some of the French, German, and Austrian dry Rieslings are a much better
match for most food than TBA or Essencia. A dry Auslese can sometimes be
very good, but sometimes can be heavy. A dry Riesling of even BA
richness is possibe, but usually would be too high in alcohol and
unbalanced. David Bruce in California once made a dry Riesling from
grapes of about BA ripeness, but it had over 17% alcohol and was very
unbalanced to my taste. Any dry Riesling I have ever seen, including Ch
Ste. Hune that is my favorite dry Riesling, lacks the great complexity
and ability to age of a top TBA. Thus I would have to put a dry Riesling
on the list as an addition just below Chardonnay(Montrachet).

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
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  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
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I should have used Clos Ste. Hune rather than Ch.

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  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
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I should have used Clos Ste. Hune rather than Ch.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> voulez vous Vouvray avec moi?


LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D

Tom S


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> voulez vous Vouvray avec moi?


LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D

Tom S




  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
enoavidh
 
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"Tom S" > wrote in news:fnwZc.14696$Yp3.368
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com:

>
> "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> voulez vous Vouvray avec moi?

>
> LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D
>
> Tom S
>
>


Surely, Labelle, no? Before Patti went solo?
d
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Leo Bueno
 
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:29:59 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>
>Yup, I agree. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Leo is using us
>to do all his research for his wine class.



Because I value and appreciate all of you, I am definitely using your
input to do some of the research for the class--and I am not ashamed
to do so and to admit it.

Heck, I am proud to see that some of my questions are worthy of your
time and very thankful for your taking the time to respond to them.
In my outline, I have already noted the importance of alt.food.wine.

Thank you all again.


--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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"enoavidh" > wrote in message
5.40...
> "Tom S" > wrote in news:fnwZc.14696$Yp3.368
> @newssvr29.news.prodigy.com:
>
> >
> > "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> voulez vous Vouvray avec moi?

> >
> > LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D
> >
> > Tom S
> >
> >

>
> Surely, Labelle, no? Before Patti went solo?
> d


Right you are. I should'a Googled it I guess... :^/

Tom S


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote in
:



> Yup, I agree. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Leo is
> using us to do all his research for his wine class. This is smelling
> increasingly like Mario Desiderio (not suggestying they're one and the
> same, by the way)
>



AHH a voice from the past. I loved the insightful questions, "Anyone drink
a good Chianti?" ahh well

on a personal note FWIW Ian, i will be in France in two weeks courtesy of
the French Tourist Board. One of out stops is The Chateau de Mercues and we
will have some free time in Cahors. Question if I can only buy one or two
bottles due to space and weight considerations What should I look for? (I
will be in the Aquitaine following this stop but haven't received the
itinerary yet, however, since you seem to know Cahors well . . .

merci d'avance

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
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Tom S wrote:

> "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>voulez vous Vouvray avec moi?

>
>
> LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D


But made notorious by US GIs in France 30 years earlier... ;-)

Mark Lipton
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