"Ron Lel" > wrote in message
...
> You might be surprised at the
> large number of winemakers and those in the industry who agree with me,
> however.

The wine industry is very resistant to change, both because it involves
taking a risk with a substantial amount of money, as well as modifying the
attitudes of its customers. I'm not sure which is more daunting.

Change is inevitable, however, and addressing cork taint is an issue whose
time has come.

Consider the fact that crown caps have been an industry standard for many
decades - not only in the breweries, but also the Champagne houses. Many
Champagnes rest for up to a decade in tirage, sealed by crown caps, with no
decline in quality and an appreciation in bottle bouquet and flavor. It's
not much of a leap in faith to expect that other wines would fare as well if
sealed in similar fashion.

Tom S

"Ron Lel" > wrote in message
...
> You might be surprised at the
> large number of winemakers and those in the industry who agree with me,
> however.

The wine industry is very resistant to change, both because it involves
taking a risk with a substantial amount of money, as well as modifying the
attitudes of its customers. I'm not sure which is more daunting.

Change is inevitable, however, and addressing cork taint is an issue whose
time has come.

Consider the fact that crown caps have been an industry standard for many
decades - not only in the breweries, but also the Champagne houses. Many
Champagnes rest for up to a decade in tirage, sealed by crown caps, with no
decline in quality and an appreciation in bottle bouquet and flavor. It's
not much of a leap in faith to expect that other wines would fare as well if
sealed in similar fashion.

Tom S

"Ron Lel" > wrote:

> I found it interesting on my visit to Austria in January, that a
> large number of Austrian winemakers and at least one owner of a
> large hotel chain and his beverage manager son agree with the
> comments I have made above - ask them Michael.

If you would do me the favour to give the names I most gratefully
would.

Not to be condescending, but being in the business for over two
decades, I guess I have met personally more winemakers than you
might even know by name. I do know exactly what's going on in
Austria. Many of the top growers would prefer to switch to
screw-caps immediately - if the public acceptance was there,
which, for the moment, is not. But things are changing - slowly,
but they do.

That's an article I wrote last summer on the subject:

<http://www.vinaria.at/sub11_vi.asp>

Sorry, in German only.

M.

"Ron Lel" > wrote:

> I found it interesting on my visit to Austria in January, that a
> large number of Austrian winemakers and at least one owner of a
> large hotel chain and his beverage manager son agree with the
> comments I have made above - ask them Michael.

If you would do me the favour to give the names I most gratefully
would.

Not to be condescending, but being in the business for over two
decades, I guess I have met personally more winemakers than you
might even know by name. I do know exactly what's going on in
Austria. Many of the top growers would prefer to switch to
screw-caps immediately - if the public acceptance was there,
which, for the moment, is not. But things are changing - slowly,
but they do.

That's an article I wrote last summer on the subject:

<http://www.vinaria.at/sub11_vi.asp>

Sorry, in German only.

M.

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:08:50 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>Certainly Micheal,
>I regard the use of these closures as an abomination.

Why? Such an emotional term, implies horror at the least. Surely any closure
has one end and one end only. To allow the wine inside to mature to it's
best potential. This isn't emotional except in so far as the wine
(expensive) is spoilt, or not allowed to show well.


Do you like old champagne? Bollinger RD can spend 25 years under crown caps,
without any traces of spoiling, is that an abomination?

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Tom S" > wrote in message om>...
> "Ron Lel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You might be surprised at the
> > large number of winemakers and those in the industry who agree with me,
> > however.
>
> The wine industry is very resistant to change, both because it involves
> taking a risk with a substantial amount of money, as well as modifying the
> attitudes of its customers. I'm not sure which is more daunting.
>
> Change is inevitable, however, and addressing cork taint is an issue whose
> time has come.
>
> Consider the fact that crown caps have been an industry standard for many
> decades - not only in the breweries, but also the Champagne houses. Many
> Champagnes rest for up to a decade in tirage, sealed by crown caps, with no
> decline in quality and an appreciation in bottle bouquet and flavor. It's
> not much of a leap in faith to expect that other wines would fare as well if
> sealed in similar fashion.
>
> Tom S

This is just my supposition but...
One hundred years from now, natural corks will only exist on old
bottlings in connoiseurs cellars. I don't think anyone of that
generation will even be aware of what they missed, which is to say,
very little.

Dan-O

Much snipped
>
>
> Do you like old champagne? Bollinger RD can spend 25 years under crown
caps,
> without any traces of spoiling, is that an abomination?
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Of course I do Ian. As I stated previously, what concerns me most is that
some winemakers - amongst then many Australians - have adopted this new
technology without first looking at its ramifications. OK, perhaps the term
"abomition" is an exagerration, however....
Over here we have a number of so called "premium" reds as well as many
whites now being bottled under stelvin and similar capsules. The only
information that I have been able to glean to date has been some of the very
few bits and pieces released by Penfolds, and they are really far and few
between.

My concerns are these: I greatly enjoy the qualities that aged wines get,
for example the honeyed characters in old Hunter semillons and the kerosene
charcters in Clare rieslings. Is there a guarantee that whites bottled under
stelvin will mature the same way? Of course there is not, because no one has
done enough definitive studies. Now, as I said, we have premium reds
bottled under these seals; how will they age and what characters will they
get?

As I stated in a previous post, I really believe that the full scale
adoption of these seals is due to the fact that most wines are consumed
shortly after purchase. Someone in a previous post mentioned the statistic
that 80% of wines are consumed within 24 hours of purchase in Australia. I
believe the figure is closer to 96% actually. I guess you can't blame
winemakers for catering to this market rather than the "old farts" like
myself who buy wines to put down. I read a disturbing comment by Len Evans ,
the doyen of the Australian wine industry, a while ago that many modern
winemakers do not even know what an aged wine tastes like. I find that sad,
and I guess from reading your posts and those of others who post here that
you would also find this sad.

Cheers
Ron

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:02:57 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>> Do you like old champagne? Bollinger RD can spend 25 years under crown
>> caps, without any traces of spoiling, is that an abomination?

>Of course I do Ian.

GOOD, so do I, and I was amazed when I discovered that they were sealed
under crown caps for all that time, just like any vulgar bottle of beer. I
think that in fact (and without trying to seem either condescending or
arrogant) you may simply be unaware of the extent or length of experience
with alternative closures - as I was in the case of champagne.

>> As I stated previously, what concerns me most is that
>some winemakers - amongst then many Australians - have adopted this new
>technology without first looking at its ramifications. OK, perhaps the term
>"abomination" is an exaggeration, however....

Ah... now we're getting down to rational discussion ;-)))

I would in fact dispute your suggestion that they have rushed like lemmings
towards alternative closures. Penfolds have trials going back many years for
example. Winemakers worldwide know perfectly well that it will be hard to
persuade their "top end" customers to change. They aren't going to make as
radical a change as switching to Stelvin without being certain that the
benefits will outweigh the problems.

>information that I have been able to glean to date has been some of the very
>few bits and pieces released by Penfolds, and they are really far and few
>between.

Ron, believe me. The trials have been done. The fact that you've been unable
to glean much information is because most of the winemakers are highly
reluctant either to admit they are trialling alternatives, and even more
reluctant to share their results. God knows why.

>My concerns are these: I greatly enjoy the qualities that aged wines get,

So do I, and if I thought for ONE moment that these qualities would be lost,
I'd have a very different perspective.

This is a topic that comes up fairly regularly (use google groups to check
up) and in the two or three times that I've taken part, my position has
changes somewhat, as I've had occasion to find out more and taste the
results of some of the experiments. Originally I was in favour of synthetic
closures for all wines designed to be drunk in less than 5 years, but highly
hesitant about wines whose character depended upon aging. Regular readers
with long memories will confirm this.

An experience about 15 months ago, was very influential. I attended
(together with Michael Pronay, but also a stellar group of experts from
various fields) a tasting of closures. There were some 60 or 70 wines on
tasting, many whites, but also reds, some with little bottle age, but - much
more importantly, a series of some 20 wines with very considerable bottle
age. In all cases the wines had been bottles "in parallel", ie, one sample
(in one case there were about 10) under cork and another under an artificial
closure. We were tasting blind, therefore we didn't know which was which and
what the artificial closure had been. We were trying to judge which wine of
each pair was "better" and why.

Of the wines we tasted, two showed up immediately as corked, so we were able
to "cheat". I never did see the final results, but what was immediately
evident to me was that there was no clear, wide & consistent difference
between samples. I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say "ah well, in
each pair, one was always fresher", or "one was always rounder" or any such
global difference. In the case of the older wines, both samples showed very
similar aging characteristics, any differences I could detect were the sort
of differences you would expect to get between individual bottle at some
age. Michael Pronay could no doubt tell you more - he's much more organised
than I am.


>for example the honeyed characters in old Hunter semillons and the kerosene
>charcters in Clare rieslings. Is there a guarantee that whites bottled under
>stelvin will mature the same way?

Yes. Judging by what I've tasted, why not? RD Champagne ages fine, and
that's hermetically sealed.

> Of course there is not, because no one has done enough definitive studies.

Shall we rephrase that... You haven't seen any results of defintive studies.

> Now, as I said, we have premium reds bottled under these seals; how will they age and what characters will they
>get?

Hae a look at Michael's comments in previous threads, not only have
Penfold's done tests, bu so have several top flight Bordeaux chateaux.

>As I stated in a previous post, I really believe that the full scale
>adoption of these seals is due to the fact that most wines are consumed
>shortly after purchase.

Well, that's obviously going to count, and in the case of 99% of wines, I
think there's no doubt at ALL that Stelvin is the right solution. All the
evidence I've seen quoted here and elsewhere is that our fears (for I am
also an oenonecrophile) over the very long term aging of wines under Stelvin
are unjustified.

>the doyen of the Australian wine industry, a while ago that many modern
>winemakers do not even know what an aged wine tastes like. I find that sad,
>and I guess from reading your posts and those of others who post here that
>you would also find this sad.

I'm not in the least bit surprised. Actually, I'd say that's true for the
majority of winemakers world wide, even in regions where wine is/was
traditionally very long lived. It is in the nature of things that wine
makers of all people spend their time tasting young wines. I've long argued
that this deforms their ability to taste and judge age-ability.

So I'm not particularly worried that Oz winemakers haven't ever tasted
properly mature wines. Actually, I don't think many winemakers can tell
whether their wine is going to age gracefully over 50 years, or whether it
will dry out and fall apart after 20. I know that when Michael P and I have
talked about this here, we've agreed that a wine can seem to have all the
characteristics that will allow for a very long life - plenty of tannins,
good acidity both of which will sustain a long life, and a great knot of
fruit that over the years will disentangle and become the majestic thing we
all hope to taste, but that in fact what happens sometimes is that the wine
doesn't live up to its promise.

What I hope you'll be prepared to do is to go patiently to people like
Penfolds and ask if they ever put on parallel tastings of wines bottled
under cork and stelvin, so that you can judge for yourself. I don't think
this is easy to arrange, and perhaps someone like Martin Field could help.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Ron Lel,
>
> le/on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:02:57 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>
> >> Do you like old champagne? Bollinger RD can spend 25
years under crown
> >> caps, without any traces of spoiling, is that an
abomination?
>
> >Of course I do Ian.
>
> GOOD, so do I, and I was amazed when I discovered that
they were sealed
> under crown caps for all that time, just like any vulgar
bottle of beer. I
> think that in fact (and without trying to seem either
condescending or
> arrogant) you may simply be unaware of the extent or
length of experience
> with alternative closures - as I was in the case of
champagne.
>
> >> As I stated previously, what concerns me most is that
> >some winemakers - amongst then many Australians - have
adopted this new
> >technology without first looking at its ramifications.
OK, perhaps the term
> >"abomination" is an exaggeration, however....
>
> Ah... now we're getting down to rational discussion ;-)))
>
> I would in fact dispute your suggestion that they have
rushed like lemmings
> towards alternative closures. Penfolds have trials going
back many years for
> example. Winemakers worldwide know perfectly well that it
will be hard to
> persuade their "top end" customers to change. They aren't
going to make as
> radical a change as switching to Stelvin without being
certain that the
> benefits will outweigh the problems.
>
> >information that I have been able to glean to date has
been some of the very
> >few bits and pieces released by Penfolds, and they are
really far and few
> >between.
>
> Ron, believe me. The trials have been done. The fact that
you've been unable
> to glean much information is because most of the
winemakers are highly
> reluctant either to admit they are trialling alternatives,
and even more
> reluctant to share their results. God knows why.

Large snip
Hi Ian - see piece on the history of screw caps at

http://www.wineoftheweek.com/screwcaps/history.html

particularly the reference to Yalumba's long-term
experimentation.
Cheers!
Martin

This month's Gourmet Traveler Wine magazine has an article about some of
the goings on with stelvins vs corks. Whilst the stelvin, if properly
handled from bottling to table, show up well in field tests by some of
our best winaries, the seal can be broken by being knocked around.
Oxidisation was present in a signficant percentage of stelvin sealed
wines tasted recently. I'll dig up the mag if you are interested.

Bill Spohn wrote:
>>Nope! Categorically refuse to buy any wine bottled under stelvin or worse
>>still this abomination you describe, Michael.
>
>
> This represents the reactionary end of the spectrum that says "The new closures
> might cause some taint or degradation in the wine"

"Oliver White" > wrote in message
...
> This month's Gourmet Traveler Wine magazine has an article about some of
> the goings on with stelvins vs corks. Whilst the stelvin, if properly
> handled from bottling to table, show up well in field tests by some of
> our best winaries, the seal can be broken by being knocked around.
> Oxidation was present in a signficant percentage of stelvin sealed
> wines tasted recently.

I can believe that. It's the same thing you have to watch out for when
buying Perrier or other sparkling water. If the cap gets dented by way of
bad handling, all the fizz escapes and you end up with flat water. In the
case of wine, a dented cap lets air into the bottle and ruins the contents.

It's rather easy to do a visual inspection of the bottle prior to purchase
so as to determine whether or not the seal is likely to be intact. In fact,
I'd go so far as to say that a blind person could quite easily discriminate
between a leaker and a sound closure. That's not true for a cork finished
bottle.

Tom S

"Oliver White" > wrote in message
...
> This month's Gourmet Traveler Wine magazine has an article about some of
> the goings on with stelvins vs corks. Whilst the stelvin, if properly
> handled from bottling to table, show up well in field tests by some of
> our best winaries, the seal can be broken by being knocked around.
> Oxidation was present in a signficant percentage of stelvin sealed
> wines tasted recently.

I can believe that. It's the same thing you have to watch out for when
buying Perrier or other sparkling water. If the cap gets dented by way of
bad handling, all the fizz escapes and you end up with flat water. In the
case of wine, a dented cap lets air into the bottle and ruins the contents.

It's rather easy to do a visual inspection of the bottle prior to purchase
so as to determine whether or not the seal is likely to be intact. In fact,
I'd go so far as to say that a blind person could quite easily discriminate
between a leaker and a sound closure. That's not true for a cork finished
bottle.

Tom S