 |
|
| Wine (alt.food.wine) Devoted to the discussion of wine and wine-related topics. A place to read and comment about wines, wine and food matching, storage systems, wine paraphernalia, etc. In general, any topic related to wine is valid fodder for the group. |
| Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
|||
|
|||
Tipping on Wine
This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 % tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't. I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal, but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone? Tricky |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
I usually figure 17-23% for the food, and 10% for the wine. However I do
have a minimum and maximum of $5 and $20 per bottle. If I bring my own wine, then I only pay the corkage fee (no tip) for the wine. And should the corkage fee exceed $25 (that has only happened once, it was $35), I subtract the difference (the $10 in that case) from the food portion of the tip. Did not feel too bad, since they still got 15% (base food price was $280; I was tipping at 19%, based on slightly better than average service, so the tip was $43.20 instead of the $53.20 they would have gotten). Tricky wrote in message > This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering > an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 % > tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't. > I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal, > but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really > have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar > bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it > acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone? > > > Tricky |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
> > This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
> > an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 % > > tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't. > > I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal, > > but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really > > have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar > > bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it > > acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone? > > Those unwritten rules are just a source of troubles! I'd say if you want to give a tip don't look at the value of your account, but ask yourself: "how do I value the service and the kindness of this particular waiter?" Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone. I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of the customer by the employee). As a curiosity: In Portugal we had in the seventies a revolution that took us from a right wing dictature, almost to a left wing one (thank God we stood in between) On those days (just after revolution) in some cafes you could find a poster saying "Tips are a capitalistic insult to the employee" regards ricardo www.portugalregional.pt |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
> Vincent,
> > I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the > corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought > process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the house > then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their > tip. I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness). With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian.  > I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the > corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know. That would be curious to know. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
> Vincent,
> > I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the > corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought > process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the house > then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their > tip. I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness). With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian. > I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the > corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know. That would be curious to know. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It > would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone. > > I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to > the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of > the customer by the employee). Ricardo, TIPS = "To Insure Prompt Service" The original rationale was to make servers' income dependent on the satisfaction of the customer. It does strike me as condescending and paternalistic, almost relegating servers to a serf-like relationship to the patrons. Why can't servers be hired and fired on the basis of their job performance just as other employees? I suspect that the major obstacle to changing the rules is the restaurant management, who would have to pay much higher payroll tax (right now paying income tax on tips is the responsibility of the server). Mark Lipton (who loves dining in Europe where such considerations are moot) |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It > would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone. > > I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to > the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of > the customer by the employee). Ricardo, TIPS = "To Insure Prompt Service" The original rationale was to make servers' income dependent on the satisfaction of the customer. It does strike me as condescending and paternalistic, almost relegating servers to a serf-like relationship to the patrons. Why can't servers be hired and fired on the basis of their job performance just as other employees? I suspect that the major obstacle to changing the rules is the restaurant management, who would have to pay much higher payroll tax (right now paying income tax on tips is the responsibility of the server). Mark Lipton (who loves dining in Europe where such considerations are moot) |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
While I wish a different system was prevalent in US, one must deal with what
is. Having known a lot of waiters/waitresses over the years, only the most professional in the top restuarants make what I would consider a nice living. So I generally do not consider the tip a place to look to economize. In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good service. I normally include the wine in my calculation, but seldom do I order a wine over maybe $60. If I ordered a $200 bottle, I could see the justification of adjusting my tip to 15% of total (food & wine) even with very good service. I seldom pay high corkage charges, on the occasions I have I've tended to substitute my retail price for the wine for the corkage in calculation(why should waitstaff suffer because I brought a $100 bottle that would have been $200 on list?). If I bring my own wine and pay no corkage (at say a place where I know the wine director), I will tip 25% as a matter of course. In an offline situation, where my group monopolizes a table or a room for hours, we include a tip of 20-25% including the corkage fee as the base when splitting costs, with everyone invited to throw in a bit extra if they wish. I do not offer these thoughts as guidance to anyone, just as what is comfortable to me. Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
While I wish a different system was prevalent in US, one must deal with what
is. Having known a lot of waiters/waitresses over the years, only the most professional in the top restuarants make what I would consider a nice living. So I generally do not consider the tip a place to look to economize. In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good service. I normally include the wine in my calculation, but seldom do I order a wine over maybe $60. If I ordered a $200 bottle, I could see the justification of adjusting my tip to 15% of total (food & wine) even with very good service. I seldom pay high corkage charges, on the occasions I have I've tended to substitute my retail price for the wine for the corkage in calculation(why should waitstaff suffer because I brought a $100 bottle that would have been $200 on list?). If I bring my own wine and pay no corkage (at say a place where I know the wine director), I will tip 25% as a matter of course. In an offline situation, where my group monopolizes a table or a room for hours, we include a tip of 20-25% including the corkage fee as the base when splitting costs, with everyone invited to throw in a bit extra if they wish. I do not offer these thoughts as guidance to anyone, just as what is comfortable to me. Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
>range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good >service. To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range should be zero. If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very basic standard. I agree that a waiter would have to screw up pretty badly, or have quite an attitude to warrant no tip, but IMO you have to have a tipping range that encompasses such egregiously bad service. I do not do what I have seen others do and leave a quarter - petty and small minded. But I have called the maitre'd over and explained that I was not tipping and why. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
>range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good >service. To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range should be zero. If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very basic standard. I agree that a waiter would have to screw up pretty badly, or have quite an attitude to warrant no tip, but IMO you have to have a tipping range that encompasses such egregiously bad service. I do not do what I have seen others do and leave a quarter - petty and small minded. But I have called the maitre'd over and explained that I was not tipping and why. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
in article , Bill Spohn at
ojunk wrote on 8/18/04 3:18 PM: >> In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the >> range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good >> service. > > To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range > should be zero. > > If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? > > In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right > orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is > not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very > basic standard. > Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and the tip goes beyond that. In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. So, work with the math. I would would have to disagree that the tip > is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >> basic standard. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Midlife wrote:
> in article , Bill Spohn at > ojunk wrote on 8/18/04 3:18 PM: > >>> In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the >>> range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good >>> service. >> >> To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range >> should be zero. >> >> If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? >> >> In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right >> orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is >> not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >> basic standard. >> > > Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for > someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to > anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I > guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and > the tip goes beyond that. > > In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of > US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. So, work with > the math. I would would have to disagree that the tip >> is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >>> basic standard. > > > Wait.... We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. My adage has always been... "If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. I do tip a bit more when there is no corkage charge and a bit less when there is, depending on the amount. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Midlife wrote:
> in article , Bill Spohn at > ojunk wrote on 8/18/04 3:18 PM: > >>> In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the >>> range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good >>> service. >> >> To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range >> should be zero. >> >> If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? >> >> In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right >> orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is >> not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >> basic standard. >> > > Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for > someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to > anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I > guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and > the tip goes beyond that. > > In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of > US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. So, work with > the math. I would would have to disagree that the tip >> is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >>> basic standard. > > > Wait.... We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. My adage has always been... "If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. I do tip a bit more when there is no corkage charge and a bit less when there is, depending on the amount. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
>>>This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering >>>an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 % >>>tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't. >>>I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal, >>>but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really >>>have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar >>>bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it >>>acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone? >>> > > > Those unwritten rules are just a source of troubles! I'd say if you want to > give a tip don't look at the value of your account, but ask yourself: "how > do I value the service and the kindness of this particular waiter?" > > Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It > would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone. > > I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to > the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of > the customer by the employee). > Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total without adding anything causes no problems, and is recommended to visitors. > > As a curiosity: > In Portugal we had in the seventies a revolution that took us from a right > wing dictature, almost to a left wing one (thank God we stood in between) > On those days (just after revolution) in some cafes you could find a poster > saying "Tips are a capitalistic insult to the employee" --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
>>>This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering >>>an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 % >>>tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't. >>>I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal, >>>but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really >>>have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar >>>bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it >>>acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone? >>> > > > Those unwritten rules are just a source of troubles! I'd say if you want to > give a tip don't look at the value of your account, but ask yourself: "how > do I value the service and the kindness of this particular waiter?" > > Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It > would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone. > > I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to > the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of > the customer by the employee). > Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total without adding anything causes no problems, and is recommended to visitors. > > As a curiosity: > In Portugal we had in the seventies a revolution that took us from a right > wing dictature, almost to a left wing one (thank God we stood in between) > On those days (just after revolution) in some cafes you could find a poster > saying "Tips are a capitalistic insult to the employee" --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any"
>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >the voids and then complain if >we don't do so to their satisfaction. >My adage has always been... >"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." >I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. > But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable service, shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the existence of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a sales associate at a department store. In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait servers would rise, as would the price of meals. Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a family restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, encouraging flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the waitress. Tom Schellberg |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any"
>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >the voids and then complain if >we don't do so to their satisfaction. >My adage has always been... >"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." >I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. > But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable service, shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the existence of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a sales associate at a department store. In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait servers would rise, as would the price of meals. Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a family restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, encouraging flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the waitress. Tom Schellberg |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Brian Boutel" wrote in message...
> Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. > That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying > the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places > have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which > provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the > bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally > expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, > the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. > Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total > without adding anything causes no problems, > and is recommended to visitors. Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service here in NZ. However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual practice in most NZ restaurants. I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. -- st.helier |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Brian Boutel" wrote in message...
> Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. > That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying > the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places > have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which > provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the > bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally > expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, > the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. > Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total > without adding anything causes no problems, > and is recommended to visitors. Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service here in NZ. However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual practice in most NZ restaurants. I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. -- st.helier |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Brian Boutel" wrote in message...
> Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. > That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying > the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places > have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which > provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the > bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally > expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, > the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. > Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total > without adding anything causes no problems, > and is recommended to visitors. Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service here in NZ. However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual practice in most NZ restaurants. I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. -- st.helier |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" >>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >>sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >>the voids and then complain if >>we don't do so to their satisfaction. >>My adage has always been... >>"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." > >>I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. >> > >But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable >service, >shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are >willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the >existence >of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a >sales >associate at a department store. > >In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers >deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait >servers would rise, as would the price of meals. > >Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a >family >restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, >encouraging >flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We >suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the >house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the >waitress. > >Tom Schellberg > > > > > > > I am a waiter here in the USA outside of california (kentucky to be exact). Minimum wage is $5.15/hr exept for servers which is $2.13/hr (my employer pays $3.50/hr to try and retain a quality staff). Corkage fee is retained by the restaurant (but this is a rare occourance). George Cox |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" >>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >>sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >>the voids and then complain if >>we don't do so to their satisfaction. >>My adage has always been... >>"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." > >>I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. >> > >But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable >service, >shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are >willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the >existence >of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a >sales >associate at a department store. > >In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers >deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait >servers would rise, as would the price of meals. > >Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a >family >restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, >encouraging >flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We >suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the >house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the >waitress. > >Tom Schellberg > > > > > > > I am a waiter here in the USA outside of california (kentucky to be exact). Minimum wage is $5.15/hr exept for servers which is $2.13/hr (my employer pays $3.50/hr to try and retain a quality staff). Corkage fee is retained by the restaurant (but this is a rare occourance). George Cox |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:47 -0400, burris >
wrote: >We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation >has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" >calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. I also find the NA system hypocritical, at best. From sales tax to tips, you never get a clear picture of what you are going to pay, you always get a pretty price that is up to 20% under the real price. For a society so based on consumerism, it seems the consumer is getting deceived by prettied up prices. The very name "tip" is hypocrisy. The basic wage is very low, so we hide that fact by creating something extra that is not a tip at all, because most people just calculate 15% or whatever and don't think about quality of service. Only in extreme cases (very good service or very bad) do people change their calculation. So in fact, being compulsory, you cannot call it a tip, can you? The tip business is also amazing from the point of view of income tax. It is basically money under the table (how much does a waiter really declare?) Here in continental Europe, you pay what is marked on the price tag, or on the menu. If you get good service, you leave a REAL tip, a voluntary contribution that does not require any calculation, you just give what you feel like leaving. If you don't leave a tip, nobody will complain. The idea of hiding a tax or other extra cost is seen as tricking the consumer, unfair trade. Mike Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:47 -0400, burris >
wrote: >We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation >has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" >calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in >the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. I also find the NA system hypocritical, at best. From sales tax to tips, you never get a clear picture of what you are going to pay, you always get a pretty price that is up to 20% under the real price. For a society so based on consumerism, it seems the consumer is getting deceived by prettied up prices. The very name "tip" is hypocrisy. The basic wage is very low, so we hide that fact by creating something extra that is not a tip at all, because most people just calculate 15% or whatever and don't think about quality of service. Only in extreme cases (very good service or very bad) do people change their calculation. So in fact, being compulsory, you cannot call it a tip, can you? The tip business is also amazing from the point of view of income tax. It is basically money under the table (how much does a waiter really declare?) Here in continental Europe, you pay what is marked on the price tag, or on the menu. If you get good service, you leave a REAL tip, a voluntary contribution that does not require any calculation, you just give what you feel like leaving. If you don't leave a tip, nobody will complain. The idea of hiding a tax or other extra cost is seen as tricking the consumer, unfair trade. Mike Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
st.helier wrote:
> "Brian Boutel" wrote in message... > > >>Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. >>That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying >>the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places >>have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which >>provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the >>bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally >>expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, >>the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. >>Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total >>without adding anything causes no problems, >>and is recommended to visitors. > > > Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service > here in NZ. > > However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to > share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual > practice in most NZ restaurants. > > I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. > But you are in Auckland, where all undesirable trends start :-) I understand your motives, but fear that it's the thin end of thr wedge. Do you also tip taxi drivers, hairdressers, doormen, in bars, and in cafes where you go for a quick coffee and a muffin? I don't want that to become the norm here. I like the ethos where there is no social-status distinction between server and served, and that is broken when you think you have to bribe people to get good service, or reward them according to how you grade their work (20% for an A+, 15% for a C). One of the features of a small city like Wellington is that the waiter/waitress might be known to you, the student child of a friend, or (in my case, before I retired), one of my own students - excellent ways to get favourable treatment! I would feel very uncomfortable having to tip in such circumstances. Of course, when I am in Europe or the USA, I go along with local customs, even though prices without tips seem very high to most people on NZ incomes. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
st.helier wrote:
> "Brian Boutel" wrote in message... > > >>Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. >>That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying >>the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places >>have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which >>provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the >>bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally >>expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, >>the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. >>Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total >>without adding anything causes no problems, >>and is recommended to visitors. > > > Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service > here in NZ. > > However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to > share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual > practice in most NZ restaurants. > > I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. > But you are in Auckland, where all undesirable trends start :-) I understand your motives, but fear that it's the thin end of thr wedge. Do you also tip taxi drivers, hairdressers, doormen, in bars, and in cafes where you go for a quick coffee and a muffin? I don't want that to become the norm here. I like the ethos where there is no social-status distinction between server and served, and that is broken when you think you have to bribe people to get good service, or reward them according to how you grade their work (20% for an A+, 15% for a C). One of the features of a small city like Wellington is that the waiter/waitress might be known to you, the student child of a friend, or (in my case, before I retired), one of my own students - excellent ways to get favourable treatment! I would feel very uncomfortable having to tip in such circumstances. Of course, when I am in Europe or the USA, I go along with local customs, even though prices without tips seem very high to most people on NZ incomes. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
st.helier wrote:
> "Brian Boutel" wrote in message... > > >>Here in NZ it has always been the custom not to tip. >>That implies that the bill includes the full cost of paying >>the staff a reasonable wage. In recent years some places >>have seen the typical form of a credit card slip, which >>provides for a tip amount to be entered and added to the >>bill amount, as an opportunity to fleece tourists who normally >>expect to tip. Unfortunately, the more common that becomes, >>the more pressure there is on locals to adopt the practice. >>Even so, just transferring the bill total to the payment total >>without adding anything causes no problems, >>and is recommended to visitors. > > > Brian, I have never been backward in giving $10 or so for excellent service > here in NZ. > > However, only if the establishment (and person) *does not* pool the tips to > share among all staff (whether they be deserving or not) as is the usual > practice in most NZ restaurants. > > I must reiterate, the service * must* be of the highest order. > But you are in Auckland, where all undesirable trends start :-) I understand your motives, but fear that it's the thin end of thr wedge. Do you also tip taxi drivers, hairdressers, doormen, in bars, and in cafes where you go for a quick coffee and a muffin? I don't want that to become the norm here. I like the ethos where there is no social-status distinction between server and served, and that is broken when you think you have to bribe people to get good service, or reward them according to how you grade their work (20% for an A+, 15% for a C). One of the features of a small city like Wellington is that the waiter/waitress might be known to you, the student child of a friend, or (in my case, before I retired), one of my own students - excellent ways to get favourable treatment! I would feel very uncomfortable having to tip in such circumstances. Of course, when I am in Europe or the USA, I go along with local customs, even though prices without tips seem very high to most people on NZ incomes. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Salut/Hi Midlife,
le/on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:56:02 -0700, tu disais/you said:- >> To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range >> should be zero. >> >> If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? Couldn't agree more. >> In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right >> orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is >> not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >> basic standard. >Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for >someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to >anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I >guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and >the tip goes beyond that. Wait a mo, Bill is talking about the basics, read again what he said. "manage to get the right orders etc etc" he wasn't talking about appearing refined (which isn't what _I_ want anyway, I want them there the moment I need them and absent the rest of the time). Educated? Nope, but capable of telling me what's in the dish I'm hesitating over. But if a waiter/waitress does their job well, then they do deserve a tip. 20% is micky mouse, IMO, I reckon 5-15% is fair with 5% for being polite and competent, 15% for service FAR and away better than the type of establishment would normally expect. I hope to going to the French Laundry this fall. There will be seven of us and if we all order the full menu at $150 or so, our bill will be $1050 for the food alone. The establishment is happy to bask in the reputation of being the "best restaurant in the world". Service is PART of the formula that will make it so. I can therefore _expect_ as part of the cost of the meal, to have near perfect service. I'm sorry, but there is NO service in the world worth paying $200 an evening for. At least not in mixed company and and in public. Even if our table has two full time waiters (completely unnecessary by any standards of service) then $100 for 5 nights a week would mean $36k in tips _on top of_ what ought to be a minimum basic wage. I can think of many a farm worker who would be happy to get $14k a year, for working as a waiter, by the way. > >In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of >US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. You're kidding. lunch and dinner? 11.30am to 3pm and from 6.30pm to 11.30pm or 3ﾂｽ hours lunch time and 5 hours evening, are fairly minimal hours staff should be present it seems to me. 8.5 hours a day 5 days a week (or are you suggesting that they should only work 4ﾂｽ days a week) is 42 hours. I run a B&B where we offer a table d'hﾃｴte. To do a dinner, we have - Jacquie & I - to plan and shop (I do that alone and probably spend an average of an hour on it every day we cook - 1 man hour) cook the meal, lay the table, serve/accompany our guests and wash up afterwards - typically spending from 5pm to 11pm (12 man hours) not counting extra time spent preparing, polishing the silver, cleaning the room etc. Call it 13 man hours a dinner. $6.75 you said? I make that $87.75 "wages" needed to do a dinner. We charge ぎ16 a person, with a maximum capacity of 8 people or a gross income of ぎ96 (only 6 people pay). From that you have to deduct wine & aperitifs (4 bottles or so at ぎ3 on average for 8 - ぎ12) Food costs for a five course meal - say ぎ20 for meat, ぎ10 for vegetables, and another ぎ20 for everything else, that's ぎ62 So when we're at our _most_ profitable, with a full table of 6 paying customers, we get a maximum of ぎ34. Converting back to dollars that gives abt $40. call it $3 an hour. And for that we have to be - what was it you said? - "refined, capable, educated, and able to anticipate the needs and desires of" our guests. -- All the Best Ian Hoare http://www.souvigne.com mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Salut/Hi Midlife,
le/on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:56:02 -0700, tu disais/you said:- >> To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range >> should be zero. >> >> If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING?? Couldn't agree more. >> In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right >> orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is >> not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very >> basic standard. >Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for >someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to >anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I >guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and >the tip goes beyond that. Wait a mo, Bill is talking about the basics, read again what he said. "manage to get the right orders etc etc" he wasn't talking about appearing refined (which isn't what _I_ want anyway, I want them there the moment I need them and absent the rest of the time). Educated? Nope, but capable of telling me what's in the dish I'm hesitating over. But if a waiter/waitress does their job well, then they do deserve a tip. 20% is micky mouse, IMO, I reckon 5-15% is fair with 5% for being polite and competent, 15% for service FAR and away better than the type of establishment would normally expect. I hope to going to the French Laundry this fall. There will be seven of us and if we all order the full menu at $150 or so, our bill will be $1050 for the food alone. The establishment is happy to bask in the reputation of being the "best restaurant in the world". Service is PART of the formula that will make it so. I can therefore _expect_ as part of the cost of the meal, to have near perfect service. I'm sorry, but there is NO service in the world worth paying $200 an evening for. At least not in mixed company and and in public. Even if our table has two full time waiters (completely unnecessary by any standards of service) then $100 for 5 nights a week would mean $36k in tips _on top of_ what ought to be a minimum basic wage. I can think of many a farm worker who would be happy to get $14k a year, for working as a waiter, by the way. > >In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of >US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. You're kidding. lunch and dinner? 11.30am to 3pm and from 6.30pm to 11.30pm or 3ﾂｽ hours lunch time and 5 hours evening, are fairly minimal hours staff should be present it seems to me. 8.5 hours a day 5 days a week (or are you suggesting that they should only work 4ﾂｽ days a week) is 42 hours. I run a B&B where we offer a table d'hﾃｴte. To do a dinner, we have - Jacquie & I - to plan and shop (I do that alone and probably spend an average of an hour on it every day we cook - 1 man hour) cook the meal, lay the table, serve/accompany our guests and wash up afterwards - typically spending from 5pm to 11pm (12 man hours) not counting extra time spent preparing, polishing the silver, cleaning the room etc. Call it 13 man hours a dinner. $6.75 you said? I make that $87.75 "wages" needed to do a dinner. We charge ぎ16 a person, with a maximum capacity of 8 people or a gross income of ぎ96 (only 6 people pay). From that you have to deduct wine & aperitifs (4 bottles or so at ぎ3 on average for 8 - ぎ12) Food costs for a five course meal - say ぎ20 for meat, ぎ10 for vegetables, and another ぎ20 for everything else, that's ぎ62 So when we're at our _most_ profitable, with a full table of 6 paying customers, we get a maximum of ぎ34. Converting back to dollars that gives abt $40. call it $3 an hour. And for that we have to be - what was it you said? - "refined, capable, educated, and able to anticipate the needs and desires of" our guests. -- All the Best Ian Hoare http://www.souvigne.com mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Mike Tommasi" > escreveu na mensagem ... > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:47 -0400, burris > > wrote: > > >We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation > >has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. > > > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" > >calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a > >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in > >the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. > > I also find the NA system hypocritical, at best. From sales tax to > tips, you never get a clear picture of what you are going to pay, you > always get a pretty price that is up to 20% under the real price. For > a society so based on consumerism, it seems the consumer is getting > deceived by prettied up prices. > > The very name "tip" is hypocrisy. The basic wage is very low, so we > hide that fact by creating something extra that is not a tip at all, > because most people just calculate 15% or whatever and don't think > about quality of service. Only in extreme cases (very good service or > very bad) do people change their calculation. So in fact, being > compulsory, you cannot call it a tip, can you? > > The tip business is also amazing from the point of view of income tax. > It is basically money under the table (how much does a waiter really > declare?) > > Here in continental Europe, you pay what is marked on the price tag, > or on the menu. If you get good service, you leave a REAL tip, a > voluntary contribution that does not require any calculation, you just > give what you feel like leaving. If you don't leave a tip, nobody will > complain. The idea of hiding a tax or other extra cost is seen as > tricking the consumer, unfair trade. > > Mike > > Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France > email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail Completely agree Mike. We can really find a different pattern here between euorpean and american opinions. I think the time is to create the anti-tip, pro decent wages, pro fair trade in America. After all the US is said to be the main defender of a good and perfect competition (that would include perfect information and no hidden fees (tips)) Compliments Ricardo PS: about minimum wages. I know it's not comparable, but 14.000USD doesn't seam to bad. Minimum wage here is less than half of it. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Mike Tommasi" > escreveu na mensagem ... > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:47 -0400, burris > > wrote: > > >We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation > >has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships. > > > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" > >calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a > >sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in > >the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction. > > I also find the NA system hypocritical, at best. From sales tax to > tips, you never get a clear picture of what you are going to pay, you > always get a pretty price that is up to 20% under the real price. For > a society so based on consumerism, it seems the consumer is getting > deceived by prettied up prices. > > The very name "tip" is hypocrisy. The basic wage is very low, so we > hide that fact by creating something extra that is not a tip at all, > because most people just calculate 15% or whatever and don't think > about quality of service. Only in extreme cases (very good service or > very bad) do people change their calculation. So in fact, being > compulsory, you cannot call it a tip, can you? > > The tip business is also amazing from the point of view of income tax. > It is basically money under the table (how much does a waiter really > declare?) > > Here in continental Europe, you pay what is marked on the price tag, > or on the menu. If you get good service, you leave a REAL tip, a > voluntary contribution that does not require any calculation, you just > give what you feel like leaving. If you don't leave a tip, nobody will > complain. The idea of hiding a tax or other extra cost is seen as > tricking the consumer, unfair trade. > > Mike > > Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France > email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail Completely agree Mike. We can really find a different pattern here between euorpean and american opinions. I think the time is to create the anti-tip, pro decent wages, pro fair trade in America. After all the US is said to be the main defender of a good and perfect competition (that would include perfect information and no hidden fees (tips)) Compliments Ricardo PS: about minimum wages. I know it's not comparable, but 14.000USD doesn't seam to bad. Minimum wage here is less than half of it. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Cggeorgecox" > escreveu na mensagem ... > > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" > >>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a > >>sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in > >>the voids and then complain if > >>we don't do so to their satisfaction. > >>My adage has always been... > >>"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." > > > >>I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. > >> > > > >But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable > >service, > >shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are > >willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the > >existence > >of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a > >sales > >associate at a department store. > > > >In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers > >deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait > >servers would rise, as would the price of meals. > > > >Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a > >family > >restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, > >encouraging > >flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We > >suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the > >house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the > >waitress. > > > >Tom Schellberg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a waiter here in the USA outside of california (kentucky to be exact). > Minimum wage is $5.15/hr exept for servers which is $2.13/hr (my employer pays > $3.50/hr to try and retain a quality staff). Corkage fee is retained by the > restaurant (but this is a rare occourance). > > George Cox > That's what I mean. Get the unions to fight untill those 2.13 equals the other 5.15. But that is the Union job, not the customer's. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Cggeorgecox" > escreveu na mensagem ... > > >The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any" > >>calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a > >>sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in > >>the voids and then complain if > >>we don't do so to their satisfaction. > >>My adage has always been... > >>"If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits." > > > >>I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond. > >> > > > >But the custom of tipping, which most people adhere to for reasonable > >service, > >shifts the supply curve for wait-service rightward. That is, wait servers are > >willing to work for less (than in similar professions) because of the > >existence > >of tips. Thus the market wage, exclusive of tips, is less than in, say, a > >sales > >associate at a department store. > > > >In fact, most people tip 15% for reasonable service, and the wait servers > >deserve this under the US system. If people stopped tipping, wage for wait > >servers would rise, as would the price of meals. > > > >Note that I am not condoning tipping for bad service. We once went to a > >family > >restaurant for lunch, and the waitress did not wipe off the table, > >encouraging > >flies, threw the food at our table, and was generally emotionally absent. We > >suffered with the flies and no service, and complained. The meal was on the > >house...no bill, no tip, and likely a stern reprimand or dismissal of the > >waitress. > > > >Tom Schellberg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a waiter here in the USA outside of california (kentucky to be exact). > Minimum wage is $5.15/hr exept for servers which is $2.13/hr (my employer pays > $3.50/hr to try and retain a quality staff). Corkage fee is retained by the > restaurant (but this is a rare occourance). > > George Cox > That's what I mean. Get the unions to fight untill those 2.13 equals the other 5.15. But that is the Union job, not the customer's. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well, Ian, I haven't been myself, but I think I recall from a friend that FL
adds a 18% service charge to check. Any tip you add to that is up to you. "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message ... > Salut/Hi Midlife, .. I hope to going to the French Laundry > this fall |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| Tipping at the bar | Beer | |||
| Tipping my be out???? | Wine | |||
| Thank you for not tipping | General Cooking | |||
| Tipping - was Tipping on Wine | Wine | |||
| Tipping | General Cooking | |||
Linear Mode
