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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mathew Kagis
 
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> >
> >> I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
> >> corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to

know.
> >
> > That would be curious to know.
> >
> >

> I tend to see this more from the view of the server and staff, who depend
> largely on tips for a reasonable income. That's probably due, in part, to
> having a sister-in-law and a daughter who have have pursued that line of
> work often in their lives. Anyway, if in doubt as to who keeps the
> excessive corkage fee, I would ask the server and tip accordingly.

The Restaurant ALWAYS takes the corking fee... & as in my post above,
this means that the server then must tip out his other support staff based
on that fee.... hope this helps clarify.

Mathew


  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
burris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mathew Kagis wrote:

>>>>

>>
>> Those unwritten rules are just a source of troubles! I'd say if
>> you want

> to
>> give a tip don't look at the value of your account, but ask
>> yourself:

> "how
>> do I value the service and the kindness of this particular waiter?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a
>> salary? It would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone.

> ...I have to take issue with this comment.... Fair for the server,
> yes.Fair to the customer... no. As in any retail operation, costs &
> overhead are passed on to the end- consumer. If servers were paid a
> 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28 steak you just ordered would
> be $60 to cover labor costs. People complain about tipping, but
> foreget that the food&beverage industry is one of the ONLY areas that
> has not kept it's pricing in line with inflation & rising costs of
> supplies & equipment. Which is why the profit margin in a PERFECTLY
> run, busy restaurant hovers around 5 to 8%.


Again....if the establishment wants to share the losses, they must also
share the profits.


>> I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the
>> customer to the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee
>> by the boss, or of the customer by the employee).

> .... Charity? No one forced you to eat out, no one poured that $200
> bottle of wine down your throat. If you feel that tipping is a
> burden... cook @ home. As to how much to tip? 15 to 20% on THE ENTIRE
> BILL is considered a standard tip in a fine dinning situation. The
> server knows how to properly decant the wine, atteneds to your every
> need, is able to make helpfull & knowledgable suggestions on your
> meal & wine choices... I reapeat, if you don't WANT these services,
> EAT @ HOME.


What are you saying? That the services you listed above should not be
services that we expect and already feel that we are paying for?

In South Florida, where we live and eat out quite a bit, whenever
possible, we bring our own wine, and there aren't a handful of
waitpersons who attend to all our needs for the most part because their
helpful and knowledgeable suggestions were suggested to them by the
management only moments before they opened.
When the food is delivered, generally they perform what I call the
"auction." Who gets the veal? This is for two of us mind you. For this
we should tip beyond the call of duty?

Most of the purchased wine comes at room temperature....this means that
the AC is turned off at night upon closing and turned back on the next
day in the late afternoon. You want me to tip for that $100.00 bottle of
wine. At least 85% of the time I ask them to provide an ice bucket for
the red wine to bring it to cellar temp. Of course the whites are served
too cold as they come right out of the refrig and are then put into an
ice bucket. The wines I bring are already at cellar temp and I wouldn't
want 95% of the waiters I encounter to decant my wine. They can barely
open or even pour it correctly. Stemware...getting a little better, but
Libbys still abounds.

The above events limit the choice of restaurants for us. When the
service is truly stellar, and it is at several places we go to and
request the service personnel we want, we tip very well, corkage or not
and we always make sure the waiter and chef in most cases get to taste
the wine.


> As to backing out of the a proper tip because you ordered an
> expensive bottle of wine...."would you care for another drink, sir?
> or are you going to hold back a little for the tip?" This, in most
> cases, COSTS your server money. Most resaurants have a 'tipout'
> system in place...Where the server must tip out a certain portion of
> what they make to be shared amongst the other support staff...ie.
> kitchen, bussers, host, bartender & sometimes management takes a cut
> too. When I worked @ the 'Blue Water Cafe' in Vancouver BC, we had to
> tip out 5% of our full sales ring out to such a pool. So, that $400
> bottle of wine (with applicable taxes $468) would cost the server
> $24 just to open it @ your table. It simply comes down to this, the
> $20 sneakers you bought in 1972 now cost $120 & most cosumers seenm
> ok with that. but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35
> & folks have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why
> eating out is 'so expensive'.... Be gratefull that restaurants have
> taken most rising costs on the chin & in the profit margin, so that
> the public can enjoy a nigh out without needing a line of credit
> from the bank.... & TIP YOUR SERVER WELL!!!!!
>



No matter how costly the shoes might be, I don't tip the salesman beyond
their cost.
The restaurateurs I know personally, some quite well, are happy with
the situation as it is, 911 not withstanding. The cash flow is such that
they weather many storms. If a line of credit becomes necessary in order
to eat out, we will cross that bridge at that time...Of course,
competition generally provides a good playing field.

burris
  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
Midlife
 
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Default

in article , burris at
wrote on 8/18/04 4:29 PM:


>>
>> Well...... if you believe that US$14,000 a year is is a reasonable wage for
>> someone who is supposed to appear refined, capable, educated, and able to
>> anticipate the needs and desires of well-heeled restaurant patrons, then I
>> guess you COULD conclude that a server's base pay is for the 'basics' and
>> the tip goes beyond that.
>>
>> In California the restaurant minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. A total of
>> US$14K requires a 40 hour week, which many servers don't get. So, work with
>> the math. I would would have to disagree that the tip
>>> is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very
>>>> basic standard.

>>
>>
>>

> Wait....
>
> We are the customers and we don't make the rules. The tipping situation
> has always been skewed in restaurants as well as on cruise ships.
>
> The entire exercise smacks of hypocrisy. Why put the burden of "any"
> calculations on the customer? If the merchants want to pay a
> sub-standard wage, and they certainly do, then why look to us to fill in
> the voids and then complain if we don't do so to their satisfaction.
> My adage has always been...
>
> "If you want me to share the losses, then I also want to share the profits."
>
>
> I agree that tipping should be for that service that is above and beyond.
>
> I do tip a bit more when there is no corkage charge and a bit less when
> there is, depending on the amount.


I'm reading this post again, as well as your response to another one on the
same subject today. I guess I just don't understand why you seem to insist
that the relationship between customer and server is the same as between
customer and management. It would seem well established that restaurants in
the US do not pay servers more than minimum wage (one which, in many states,
is lower than the minimum wage for other job categories) and, I think, that
their service is usually worth more than that. The 'system', if you will,
subsidizes the servers wages with tips. Unless your server owns the
restaurant why should he or she pay for your disapproval of the system?

I have my own issues with why the server at a $50 per meal establishment
earns so much more than one (who might be better at the job) in a place
where the average meal is $20. That, to me, is something more worthy of
discussion. To some degree, the more expensive meal may be more complex and
require more knowledge as well as a higher level of service..... but I tend
to tip a higher % for great service at the lower price place than at the
higher.

  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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In article >, Ian Hoare
> writes:

>Gulp!! Still, I prefer this (french) way of dealing with tips. In France, in
>principle, 15% tip is included in the price. I agree that this could/can
>lead to unmotivated sloppy service, but d'you know, I've hardly ever
>received it.
>AND
> No one defending the system suggests that it is EVER correct to give no
>tip at all, no matter how atrocious the service. I cannot - with the best
>will in the world - go along with that logic.


As I said earlier, I'm no defender of the system. But in reality (where we have
to live, like it or not) in US is that IS the system. As I said only in the
case of a really offensive waiter have I not tipped.

But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they got paid
just as much as a good one.

I'm having trouble understanding how people can argue that it's acceptable to
pay 15% if it's included in price, but react in horror at paying 15% if it's
not "required." One can compare the tasting menu prices of the top places in US
(FL, Charlie Trotter's, Daniel, etc) to the prices of Taillevent, Plaza
Athenee, etc and see that one is generally better off financially paying US &
20% than French servis compris (even before current currency issues!).

As to those who find the calculations daunting.....nah, that's too easy a
target.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"Mathew Kagis" > wrote:

> If servers were paid a 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28
> steak you just ordered would be $60 to cover labor costs.
> [...]
> but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35 & folks
> have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why
> eating out is 'so expensive'


Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these
calculations?

M.



  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Young Martle
 
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On 22 Aug 2004 06:34:57 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:


>Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these
>calculations?
>


I can't follow the logic in a lot of things that happen in my life.

I'd rather try to understand why stores are already showcasing Xmas
products!

Myron
(wait a minute! I think I know!)
  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Neidich
 
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But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save on
bathroom tips :-)

Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip
savings.


"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Ian Hoare
> > writes:
>
> >Gulp!! Still, I prefer this (french) way of dealing with tips. In France,

in
> >principle, 15% tip is included in the price. I agree that this could/can
> >lead to unmotivated sloppy service, but d'you know, I've hardly ever
> >received it.
> >AND
> > No one defending the system suggests that it is EVER correct to give no
> >tip at all, no matter how atrocious the service. I cannot - with the best
> >will in the world - go along with that logic.

>
> As I said earlier, I'm no defender of the system. But in reality (where we

have
> to live, like it or not) in US is that IS the system. As I said only in

the
> case of a really offensive waiter have I not tipped.
>
> But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they got

paid
> just as much as a good one.
>
> I'm having trouble understanding how people can argue that it's

acceptable to
> pay 15% if it's included in price, but react in horror at paying 15% if

it's
> not "required." One can compare the tasting menu prices of the top places

in US
> (FL, Charlie Trotter's, Daniel, etc) to the prices of Taillevent, Plaza
> Athenee, etc and see that one is generally better off financially paying

US &
> 20% than French servis compris (even before current currency issues!).
>
> As to those who find the calculations daunting.....nah, that's too easy a
> target.
>
>
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply



  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mathew Kagis
 
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"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote:
>
> > If servers were paid a 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28
> > steak you just ordered would be $60 to cover labor costs.
> > [...]
> > but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35 & folks
> > have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why
> > eating out is 'so expensive'

>
> Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these
> calculations?
>
> M.


Michael: Pardon my extrapilation without explaining my thought process, I
was deep into a good rant. If you raise server's wages to something
considered a living wage... It's the tip of the iceburg. Bussers,
Bartenders, Chefs, Sous-Chefs, Managers & even dishwashers will all want
their peice of the pie.... Wages would have to go up across the board. All
of those increased wages & salaries would be passed on to the customer to
pay. The formula (in a perfect world) for restaurants (at least in Canada)
is: 33% food cost 33% labour cost 25% hard cost & overhead... allow 1 to 3%
for shrinkage & the unforseen... profit margins are low.
as to $7...it's 20% of $35...

Mathew


  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hey, maybe it's about time we change the subject here!

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:mn4Wc.46850$fz2.32641@edtnps89...
>
> "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mathew Kagis" > wrote:
> >
> > > If servers were paid a 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28
> > > steak you just ordered would be $60 to cover labor costs.
> > > [...]
> > > but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35 & folks
> > > have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why
> > > eating out is 'so expensive'

> >
> > Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these
> > calculations?
> >
> > M.

>
> Michael: Pardon my extrapilation without explaining my thought process, I
> was deep into a good rant. If you raise server's wages to something
> considered a living wage... It's the tip of the iceburg. Bussers,
> Bartenders, Chefs, Sous-Chefs, Managers & even dishwashers will all want
> their peice of the pie.... Wages would have to go up across the board. All
> of those increased wages & salaries would be passed on to the customer to
> pay. The formula (in a perfect world) for restaurants (at least in

Canada)
> is: 33% food cost 33% labour cost 25% hard cost & overhead... allow 1 to

3%
> for shrinkage & the unforseen... profit margins are low.
> as to $7...it's 20% of $35...
>
> Mathew
>
>



  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
Posts: n/a
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>> If servers were paid a 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28
>> steak you just ordered would be $60 to cover labor costs.
>> [...]
>> but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35 & folks
>> have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why
>> eating out is 'so expensive'


>Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these
>calculations?
>
>M.


Not only is this illogical (unclear), but the shoe example previously alluded
to is wrong. Thanks to outsourcing to the third world, the rate of inflation on
apparel has been very low, even negative, in recent years. Housing, services,
health care and other rapidly rising prices account for the for three-fold
increase in the US consumer price index since the 1970s.

Tom Schellberg


  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
Posts: n/a
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>I think the time is to create the anti-tip, pro decent wages, pro fair trade
>in America. After all the US is said to be the main defender of a good and
>perfect competition (that would include perfect information and no hidden
>fees (tips))


Ricardo

I don't see how there is hidden information here. All parties know what's going
on. Wait-service is willing to work for less because they know they will be
tipped if they provide reasonable service, and customers know that workers
depend on tips for their livlihood.

If the whole system seems dishonest, restaurants could include on their menus
and signs "Price of meal includes an equal of gratuity". These restaurants
would pay their wait-service a higher wage than others.

It's like comparing a $350/mo apartment without heat with a $400/mo apartment
with heat included. (Wyoming rental rates, not New York) Everyone knows that
the extra $50 pays for heat.

Tom Schellberg
  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mathew Kagis
 
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>
> Not only is this illogical (unclear), but the shoe example previously

alluded
> to is wrong. Thanks to outsourcing to the third world, the rate of

inflation on
> apparel has been very low, even negative, in recent years. Housing,

services,
> health care and other rapidly rising prices account for the for three-fold
> increase in the US consumer price index since the 1970s.
>
> Tom Schellberg


Tom: I was simply pointing out that the Restaurant industry has not seen
the 3 fold price increase that most other retail industries have seen since
the 70's. Instead, food & beverage outlets have seen their profit margins
shrink drastically... Please see above post deep into a good rant.

Mathew


  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Emery Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:00:52 GMT, "Richard Neidich" <rneidich@REMOVEearthl=
ink.net> said:

] But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save=
on
] bathroom tips :-)
]=20
] Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip
] savings.
]=20

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant. I=
've
worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers
as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living =
at
the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de=
Paris
has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social stan=
ding of
the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

I'm not sure that globally speaking, France has a lower standard of living =
than
the US. Certainly the wine standard of living is higher, as there is a muc=
h larger
selection of lower priced wines available. (Just drank an entirely reasona=
ble
Chilean Carmerere for =A41.50! Talk about a loss leader! )
]=20
] "Dale Williams" > wrote in message
] ...
][]
] > But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they =
got
] paid
] > just as much as a good one.
] >

On that meal yes, but of course there is still an element of competition in=
volved:
they are less likely to be promoted within the organization, less likely to=
get=20
better wait-jobs, less likely to get along well with co-workers. In short,=
it's
exactly like any salaried job anywhere. One might extend your argument to
say that, say, fund raisers should always be paid on a per-project basis, b=
ecause
otherwise they become demotivated. Obviously there are other motivations=20
that prompt successful job performance.

On the whole I prefer the french system of including the tip, although ther=
e are
clearly arguments in both directions, and figuring the tip on an expensive =
bottle
is an interesting one to think about!

[]


--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies
  #94 (permalink)   Report Post  
Emery Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:44:26 +0200, Ian Hoare > said:

] Salut/Hi Bill,
]
] le/on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:04:46 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
]
]
[]
] >While you are in the area, lunch at the CIA. It is about food. Chez Panisse
] >in SF is a place that should be near to your heart since they specialize in
] >very fresh veggies.
]
] I've heard good things about both. Depending upon how big my tips are
] between now and October, maybe I can afford to visit one or more!
]

Don't miss either if you can help it. The problem is that FL is very, very hard
to get a reservation. At one time they were accepting only on the day _exactly_
3 months before the desired date, a practice I found offensive. (As a result I
haven't been; but many folks who's judgement I respect have liked it.)

] >Hopefully you will not have to endure the type of service that has become
] >overly popular in the US. "Hi, I am Taffy and I will be your waitress".
]
] We had a thread on this some years ago. I remember holding forth on the
] subject at inimitable length. I think I might be tempted to reply "Well Hi,
] Tammy, I'm Ian, do you want to know about my piles?"
]

Unfortunately piles and farmers are unknown by that name to wider america.
What's the US slang equivilent, anyone know?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies
  #95 (permalink)   Report Post  
Emery Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:44:26 +0200, Ian Hoare > said:

] Salut/Hi Bill,
]
] le/on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:04:46 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
]
]
[]
] >While you are in the area, lunch at the CIA. It is about food. Chez Panisse
] >in SF is a place that should be near to your heart since they specialize in
] >very fresh veggies.
]
] I've heard good things about both. Depending upon how big my tips are
] between now and October, maybe I can afford to visit one or more!
]

Don't miss either if you can help it. The problem is that FL is very, very hard
to get a reservation. At one time they were accepting only on the day _exactly_
3 months before the desired date, a practice I found offensive. (As a result I
haven't been; but many folks who's judgement I respect have liked it.)

] >Hopefully you will not have to endure the type of service that has become
] >overly popular in the US. "Hi, I am Taffy and I will be your waitress".
]
] We had a thread on this some years ago. I remember holding forth on the
] subject at inimitable length. I think I might be tempted to reply "Well Hi,
] Tammy, I'm Ian, do you want to know about my piles?"
]

Unfortunately piles and farmers are unknown by that name to wider america.
What's the US slang equivilent, anyone know?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies


  #96 (permalink)   Report Post  
Night-Owl
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:00:52 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> said:

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant.
I've
worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers
as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living
at
the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de
Paris
has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social
standing of
the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

Hmmm... when does tipping occur? The moment one sets foot in the bathroom
or once hands are washed?
Just wondering as this may become ridiculous none the least.

Monika
The clean freak


  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Neidich
 
Posts: n/a
Default

why were you working a bathroom? :-)

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:00:52 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> said:

] But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save
on
] bathroom tips :-)
]
] Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip
] savings.
]

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant.
I've
worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers
as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living
at
the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de
Paris
has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social
standing of
the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

I'm not sure that globally speaking, France has a lower standard of living
than
the US. Certainly the wine standard of living is higher, as there is a much
larger
selection of lower priced wines available. (Just drank an entirely
reasonable
Chilean Carmerere for ¤1.50! Talk about a loss leader! )
]
] "Dale Williams" > wrote in message
] ...
][]
] > But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they
got
] paid
] > just as much as a good one.
] >

On that meal yes, but of course there is still an element of competition
involved:
they are less likely to be promoted within the organization, less likely to
get
better wait-jobs, less likely to get along well with co-workers. In short,
it's
exactly like any salaried job anywhere. One might extend your argument to
say that, say, fund raisers should always be paid on a per-project basis,
because
otherwise they become demotivated. Obviously there are other motivations
that prompt successful job performance.

On the whole I prefer the french system of including the tip, although there
are
clearly arguments in both directions, and figuring the tip on an expensive
bottle
is an interesting one to think about!

[]


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies


  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Neidich
 
Posts: n/a
Default

why were you working a bathroom? :-)

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:00:52 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> said:

] But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save
on
] bathroom tips :-)
]
] Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip
] savings.
]

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant.
I've
worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers
as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living
at
the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de
Paris
has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social
standing of
the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

I'm not sure that globally speaking, France has a lower standard of living
than
the US. Certainly the wine standard of living is higher, as there is a much
larger
selection of lower priced wines available. (Just drank an entirely
reasonable
Chilean Carmerere for ¤1.50! Talk about a loss leader! )
]
] "Dale Williams" > wrote in message
] ...
][]
] > But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they
got
] paid
] > just as much as a good one.
] >

On that meal yes, but of course there is still an element of competition
involved:
they are less likely to be promoted within the organization, less likely to
get
better wait-jobs, less likely to get along well with co-workers. In short,
it's
exactly like any salaried job anywhere. One might extend your argument to
say that, say, fund raisers should always be paid on a per-project basis,
because
otherwise they become demotivated. Obviously there are other motivations
that prompt successful job performance.

On the whole I prefer the french system of including the tip, although there
are
clearly arguments in both directions, and figuring the tip on an expensive
bottle
is an interesting one to think about!

[]


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Emery Davis
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Emery Davis
 
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:17:31 -0400, "Night-Owl" > said:

[]
] Hmmm... when does tipping occur? The moment one sets foot in the bathroom
] or once hands are washed?
] Just wondering as this may become ridiculous none the least.
]
Hi Monika,

It is customary to tip when the attendant hands you a clean towel, after hand washing.
OK, after you dry the hands...

As for Dick's question, oh fuhgedaboudit.

-E

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Bill
 
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Emery Davis wrote:

> Don't miss either if you can help it. The problem is that FL is very, very hard
> to get a reservation. At one time they were accepting only on the day _exactly_
> 3 months before the desired date, a practice I found offensive. (As a result I
> haven't been; but many folks who's judgement I respect have liked it.)


Emery, it got so bad that they were only taking reservations starting at 12:00
noon on that day and by 12:30 they were booked. I heard that there was a
service in SF that could get you a reservation with as little as 10 days
notice but I have not looked for them.



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Bill
 
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Emery Davis wrote:

> Don't miss either if you can help it. The problem is that FL is very, very hard
> to get a reservation. At one time they were accepting only on the day _exactly_
> 3 months before the desired date, a practice I found offensive. (As a result I
> haven't been; but many folks who's judgement I respect have liked it.)


Emery, it got so bad that they were only taking reservations starting at 12:00
noon on that day and by 12:30 they were booked. I heard that there was a
service in SF that could get you a reservation with as little as 10 days
notice but I have not looked for them.

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