2001 Joseph Phelps Napa Viognier (purchased at discount for $13/bottle)
color: golden yellow
nose: intense pineapple, pear and a hint of melon
palate: medium-full body, no hint of oakiness, rich fruit flavors and a
long, clean finish

Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
or buttery character. And all this in a $13 bottle! Highly
recommended.

Mark Lipton

> Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
> or buttery character.


Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the cob
with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I keep
getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak is a
necessity for these two wines.


Thanks for the notes.

Sean

"Sean E. Slindee" wrote:

> > Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
> > or buttery character.
>
> Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the cob
> with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I keep
> getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak is a
> necessity for these two wines.

Sean,
Certainly our tastes are at odds here, but I would also caution you about
judging Viognier: there is an awful lot of bland, insipid stuff marketed in CA
under that grape name. The wine in question is one of a handful I've had from
CA (Garretson, Calera, RH Philips being 3 others) that actually got the fruit
right.


>
>
> Thanks for the notes.

You're most welcome,
Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Sean E. Slindee" wrote:
>
> > > Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive
oakiness
> > > or buttery character.
> >
> > Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the
cob
> > with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I
keep
> > getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak
is a
> > necessity for these two wines.
>
> Sean,
> Certainly our tastes are at odds here, but I would also caution you
about
> judging Viognier: there is an awful lot of bland, insipid stuff marketed
in CA
> under that grape name. The wine in question is one of a handful I've had
from
> CA (Garretson, Calera, RH Philips being 3 others) that actually got the
fruit
> right.

Sorry Mark, but I agree with Sean to a great extent. Most of the Viognier
I've tasted hasn't held a candle to Pinot Blanc, Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon
Blanc or Gewurtztraminer - much less Chardonnay. I don't think it's a
question of oak; IMO Viognier just isn't as noble a grape. The best I've
tasted have certainly been pleasant, but never compelling.

Tom S

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:38:10 GMT, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>
>
>"Sean E. Slindee" wrote:
>
>> > Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
>> > or buttery character.
>>
>> Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the cob
>> with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I keep
>> getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak is a
>> necessity for these two wines.
>
>Sean,
> Certainly our tastes are at odds here, but I would also caution you about
>judging Viognier: there is an awful lot of bland, insipid stuff marketed in CA
>under that grape name. The wine in question is one of a handful I've had from
>CA (Garretson, Calera, RH Philips being 3 others) that actually got the fruit
>right.
>
A tasting group that I participate in on an irregular basis (because
the group gets together on an irregular basis) did a viognier tasting
a year or so ago and we found a good bargain in the Yalumba viognier
(don't recall what vintage it was). It came in second, slightly behind
the best (unfortunately, I don't recall what that one was) but was
about half the price of that one. IIRC, all the others were
California, but I'm almost certain that none were any of the ones Mark
mentioned.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

In article >, "Sean E. Slindee"
> writes:

>Oak is a
>necessity for these two wines.

We'll just have to agree that our tastes don't match here, at least as far as
Chardonnay. Unoaked chardonnay doesn't cut it? Personally, I'll take Chablis
from Picq, Brocard, or Louis Michel any day. Or Brun's Beaujolais Blanc.
Doesn't mean I can't appreciate a Ch. Montelena Chardonnay or a Girardin white
Burg (or even a Kistler!), but I certainly wouldn't call oak a neccessity.

As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it comes
down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. I actually have zero in my cellar,
having drunk the last Gilles Barge Condrieu. I always initially love the
aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with food, and
seldom does Viognier enhance.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 22 Jun 2004 14:04:35 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it comes
>down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. [snip] I always initially love the
>aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with food, and
>seldom does Viognier enhance.
>
You expressed my thoughts regarding viognier exactly, except that I've
not sure whether I've ever had an unoaked Condrieu.

What about starting a thread about blending, and sometimes
co-fermenting, viognier with syrah? I know that this is often done but
most of the time when I tell someone about it, it comes as a surprise
to them.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

>You expressed my thoughts regarding viognier exactly, except that I've
>not sure whether I've ever had an unoaked Condrieu.

Vernay and Niero (sp?) are first 2 that come to mind. I think Gilles Barge has
a light hand with oak.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>What about starting a thread about blending, and sometimes
>co-fermenting, viognier with syrah? I know that this is often done but
>most of the time when I tell someone about it, it comes as a surprise
>to them.

Well, "often" is probably a slight overstatement. To my knowledge it's only
common in Côte-Rôtie, and even there it's on the order of 5% of the blend. I
don't think it's done (or allowed) in the other Syrah-centric ACs in Northern
Rhone (Hermitage, Cornas, St. Joseph, Crozes-H). Sometimes I get a little
floweriness from C-R, my guess is that's what the Viognier contributes. Anyone
else with better info?
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 22 Jun 2004 18:12:05 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>What about starting a thread about blending, and sometimes
>>co-fermenting, viognier with syrah? I know that this is often done but
>>most of the time when I tell someone about it, it comes as a surprise
>>to them.
>
>Well, "often" is probably a slight overstatement. To my knowledge it's only
>common in Côte-Rôtie, and even there it's on the order of 5% of the blend. I
>don't think it's done (or allowed) in the other Syrah-centric ACs in Northern
>Rhone (Hermitage, Cornas, St. Joseph, Crozes-H). Sometimes I get a little
>floweriness from C-R, my guess is that's what the Viognier contributes. Anyone
>else with better info?

I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is
inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I
consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is
_sometimes_ done in California and Washington. I have less reliable
information that it is also (again "sometimes") done in Australia.
Co-fermentation is done at least partially for reasons of color.
Adding viognier prior to fermentation apparently helps to "fix" (in
the photographic sense) the color in the resulting wine. An attempt
was made once by an M.W. to explain the chemistry to me. The
responsibility for my inability to fully understand it was entirely my
own.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Dale Williams wrote:

> As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it comes
> down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. I actually have zero in my cellar,
> having drunk the last Gilles Barge Condrieu. I always initially love the
> aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with food, and
> seldom does Viognier enhance.

Hmmm... I can't agree with this statement, either, Dale. When dining
with Jean, Ian and Jacquie some years back, I chose a bottle of Condrieu
that Ian suggested would go with a scallop hors d'oeuvre. IIRC, all 4
of us agreed that it was a magical combination. I know that Hugh
Johnson also recommends pasta scented with truffles as a match, but I've
yet to try it. To me, at its best (which it rarely is, alas) Viognier
has the body and character of Pinot Gris and the aromaticity of
Gewürztraminer. Actually, I would be interested to hear if anyone else
has any pairing suggestions for Viognier (Jaybert? Mathew?)

Mark Lipton

In article >, Mark Lipton >
writes:

>seldom does Viognier enhance.
>
>Hmmm... I can't agree with this statement, either, Dale. When dining
>with Jean, Ian and Jacquie some years back, I chose a bottle of Condrieu
>that Ian suggested would go with a scallop hors d'oeuvre. IIRC, all 4
>of us agreed that it was a magical combination. I know that Hugh
>Johnson also recommends pasta scented with truffles as a match, but I've
>yet to try it. To me, at its best (which it rarely is, alas) Viognier
>has the body and character of Pinot Gris and the aromaticity of
>Gewürztraminer. Actually, I would be interested to hear if anyone else
>has any pairing suggestions for Viognier (Jaybert? Mathew?)
>

Funnily enough, the best pairing I've ever had with Viognier was also with
scallops. At Crabtree's Kittle House a half-bottle of Condrieu (Cuilleron?)
with an appetizer of scallops in an Asian-influenced (light) cream sauce. I'm
not saying one can't find very good matches for Viognier. One can also find
good matches for dry Muscats, 15.5% Shirazes, etc. But I tend to buy wines that
fit in with (and hopefully enhance) the profiles of the foods I eat the most.
So I keep little cellar space for the others.

I prefer wines that go well with a variety of foods- give me GV over Viognier
any day.
I went on a real Viognier kick a few years ago. Now I probably open 2-3 bottles
a year, and that's plenty for me.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Sean E. Slindee"
> > writes:
>
> >Oak is a
> >necessity for these two wines.
>
> We'll just have to agree that our tastes don't match here, at least as far
as
> Chardonnay. Unoaked chardonnay doesn't cut it? Personally, I'll take
Chablis
> from Picq, Brocard, or Louis Michel any day. Or Brun's Beaujolais Blanc.
> Doesn't mean I can't appreciate a Ch. Montelena Chardonnay or a Girardin
white
> Burg (or even a Kistler!), but I certainly wouldn't call oak a neccessity.

I'll concede that a good Chablis can be very enjoyable, but IMO the synergy
between Chardonnay and French oak is more intense than in any other
wine/wood combination. IOW, 1+1=3 (or more). Extended lees contact seems
to be essential to make the most of this fusion.

Tom S

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:45:05 GMT, Vino > wrote:

>On 22 Jun 2004 18:12:05 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
>wrote:
>

>>
>>Well, "often" is probably a slight overstatement. To my knowledge it's only
>>common in Côte-Rôtie, and even there it's on the order of 5% of the blend.
>
>I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is
>inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I
>consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is
>_sometimes_ done in California and Washington.

Glen Fiona in Washington makes a Walla Walla Valley Syrah that is
cofermented with Viognier. They are a small winery that makes all
"Rhone style" wines.

Dale M.

Mark Lipton > wrote:
: Dale Williams wrote:

:> As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it c=
omes
:> down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. I actually have zero in my=
cellar,
:> having drunk the last Gilles Barge Condrieu. I always initially love th=
e
:> aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with f=
ood, and
:> seldom does Viognier enhance.=20

: Hmmm... I can't agree with this statement, either, Dale. When dining=20
: with Jean, Ian and Jacquie some years back, I chose a bottle of Condrieu=
=20
: that Ian suggested would go with a scallop hors d'oeuvre. IIRC, all 4=20
: of us agreed that it was a magical combination. I know that Hugh=20
: Johnson also recommends pasta scented with truffles as a match, but I've=
=20
: yet to try it. To me, at its best (which it rarely is, alas) Viognier=20
: has the body and character of Pinot Gris and the aromaticity of=20
: Gew=FCrztraminer. Actually, I would be interested to hear if anyone els=
e=20
: has any pairing suggestions for Viognier (Jaybert? Mathew?)

Mark L -=20

like Dale, I've had a good match with viognier and scallops=20
before. The problem with Viognier/Condrieu is manyfold: high prices, no=20
clue to style (richly oaked, high extract or light), a limited shelf life=20
(rarely does it improve in bottle and is best within a few years of=20
vintage). With these strikes against it, why bother with the d'arned=20
grape? Because a well made example reminds one of a day sitting in a=20
garden of jasmine or honeysuckle, like a decadent Southern plantation in=20
springtime. The nose is that quixotic.=20

Good matches? Trickier, because you need to know what's in the=20
bottle beforehand. I've had a good match with Guigal's 1990 Condrieu and=20
roast chicken, but tell me something that Doesn't go with this roast meat?=
=20
Scallops are good too, because of their sweet nature. Other shelfish=20
doesn't have the richness, but lobster might work, along with fish stews.
While the matches may be few, find one that works and you'll remember this=
=20
grape and the search will have been worthwhile.=20

Mark S

=20

wrote:

> like Dale, I've had a good match with viognier and scallops
> before. The problem with Viognier/Condrieu is manyfold: high prices, no
> clue to style (richly oaked, high extract or light), a limited shelf life
> (rarely does it improve in bottle and is best within a few years of
> vintage). With these strikes against it, why bother with the d'arned
> grape? Because a well made example reminds one of a day sitting in a
> garden of jasmine or honeysuckle, like a decadent Southern plantation in
> springtime. The nose is that quixotic.

LOL!! Well put, Mark [S.]. It shares, with Pinot Noir, that resemblence
to the little girl with the little curl... ;-)

>
> Good matches? Trickier, because you need to know what's in the
> bottle beforehand. I've had a good match with Guigal's 1990 Condrieu and
> roast chicken, but tell me something that Doesn't go with this roast meat?
> Scallops are good too, because of their sweet nature. Other shelfish
> doesn't have the richness, but lobster might work, along with fish stews.
> While the matches may be few, find one that works and you'll remember this
> grape and the search will have been worthwhile.

This reminds me that someone (probably Hugh J.) advocates the match of
Condrieu with bouillabaise. Haven't tried it, though, as I rarely buy
Viogniers because of the poor hit/miss ratio. However, at the moment I
have 3 waiting to be consumed (another Phelps, Garretson and Arrowood),
so I'll have to consider all the options. Fortunately, I know all 3
wines, having tasted each, and they're stylistically similar: big,
unoaked and with good acidity.

Thanks,
Mark Lipton

I have not had much Viognier in the past few years. I did have some Ch.
Grillet in the 70's and 80's and found it greatly overpriced for what it
had to offer me. I remember some Guigal Condrieu 1989 that was quite
decent and not nearly as expensive as Ch. Grillet.

Does Quipe still make Viognier in California? I had some Quipe Santa
Barbara, Los Olivos Vineyard Viognier 1991 in the past. It was rather
good, and, as do most of the Santa Barbara whites, it had plenty of
acid. Quipe was a small operation then and I had to special order it
from a California wine store shortly after it was released.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

>I did have some Ch.
>Grillet in the 70's and 80's and found it greatly overpriced for what it
>had to offer me.

I've only had a couple , but Grillet is usually my nominee for most overpriced
traditional European wine.

>
>Does Quipe still make Viognier in California? I had some Quipe Santa
>Barbara, Los Olivos Vineyard Viognier 1991 in the past. It was rather
>good, and, as do most of the Santa Barbara whites, it had plenty of
>acid.

You mean Qupé? If so, they do still make Viognier. Pretty good I think, though
north of $20. A slightly less expensive chardonnay/Viognier (mix up those
capitals!) blend is ok, too.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Yes, I mean Qupe. The price was much lower when I bought mine, but so
was the price of most other wines. I have tasting notes for the 89
somewhere, but any unopened bottles likely are much too old now.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

Cwdjrx _ wrote:
> Yes, I mean Qupe. The price was much lower when I bought mine, but so
> was the price of most other wines. I have tasting notes for the 89
> somewhere, but any unopened bottles likely are much too old now.
>
> My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
> from my email address. Then add . I do not
> check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.
>

Two good Viogniers that I have enjoyed in the past are Chateau Julian
from Monterey County and Horton from Virginia and I am sure they are
both cheaper than Qupe.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:45:05 GMT, Vino wrote:

> I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is
> inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I
> consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is
> _sometimes_ done in California and Washington. I have less reliable
> information that it is also (again "sometimes") done in Australia.

Indeed it is; for example, Yalumba's Barossa Shiraz contains viognier
(about 5% in this case) and has for several vintages.

http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=17&l=43&v=796

So does their "hand picked" shiraz, which actually mentions the viognier on
the front label:

http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=18&l=27&v=794

And so, apparently, does De Bortoli's just-released 2002 Gulf Station
Shiraz.


- Anthony

Anthony Horan > wrote in message > ...
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:45:05 GMT, Vino wrote:
>
> > I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is
> > inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I
> > consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is
> > _sometimes_ done in California and Washington. I have less reliable
> > information that it is also (again "sometimes") done in Australia.
>
> Indeed it is; for example, Yalumba's Barossa Shiraz contains viognier
> (about 5% in this case) and has for several vintages.
>
> http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=17&l=43&v=796
>
> So does their "hand picked" shiraz, which actually mentions the viognier on
> the front label:
>
> http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=18&l=27&v=794
>
> And so, apparently, does De Bortoli's just-released 2002 Gulf Station
> Shiraz.
>
>
> - Anthony

Torbreck (Parker's new darling) uses 8% Viognier in their Descendant
and about 2% in their Runrig.

In article >, says...
>
>2001 Joseph Phelps Napa Viognier (purchased at discount for $13/bottle)
>color: golden yellow
>nose: intense pineapple, pear and a hint of melon
>palate: medium-full body, no hint of oakiness, rich fruit flavors and a
>long, clean finish
>
>Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
>or buttery character. And all this in a $13 bottle! Highly
>recommended.
>
>Mark Lipton

Great price for a very fine domestic Viognier. My wine club price is US$18 and
I pick up a case whenever I'm in Napa, as the Viognier is not readily
available in AZ, though many other of J Phelps' fine wines are.

Hunt

In article >, says...
>
>
>
>"Sean E. Slindee" wrote:
>
>> > Great varietal character with plenty of fruit and no obstrusive oakiness
>> > or buttery character.
>>
>> Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the
cob
>> with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I keep
>> getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak is a
>> necessity for these two wines.
>
>Sean,
> Certainly our tastes are at odds here, but I would also caution you about
>judging Viognier: there is an awful lot of bland, insipid stuff marketed in
CA
>under that grape name. The wine in question is one of a handful I've had
from
>CA (Garretson, Calera, RH Philips being 3 others) that actually got the fruit
>right.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the notes.
>
>You're most welcome,
>Mark Lipton
>

Mark, if you can locate it, Gregory Graham's Napa Viognier is excellent, as is
Beckman's from Cent. Coast CA.

Hunt

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:29:27 +1000, Anthony Horan
> wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:45:05 GMT, Vino wrote:
>
>> I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is
>> inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I
>> consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is
>> _sometimes_ done in California and Washington. I have less reliable
>> information that it is also (again "sometimes") done in Australia.
>
>Indeed it is; for example, Yalumba's Barossa Shiraz contains viognier
>(about 5% in this case) and has for several vintages.
>
>http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=17&l=43&v=796
>
>So does their "hand picked" shiraz, which actually mentions the viognier on
>the front label:
>
>http://www.yalumba.com/vintage.asp?p...=18&l=27&v=794
>
>And so, apparently, does De Bortoli's just-released 2002 Gulf Station
>Shiraz.
>
>
>- Anthony

In Australia, Heathcote Winery's Mail Coach Shiraz has a splash of
Viognier, Clonakilla (Canberra) are the reputed 'specialists' (but
only available at Cellar Door or mailing list). D'Arenberg have a
beautiful 'Laughing Magpie' Shz-Viog blend. These are the standout
Shiraz Viognier blends from Oz, (IMHO).

It does however seem that along with the trend/desire of some
winemakers to blend in an amount of "Heathcote' fruit, a splash of
viognier is also becoming popular. I won't complain, because I
definitely love the taste of these Cote Rotie styles.

Regards...Swooper

Hunt wrote:

> Mark, if you can locate it, Gregory Graham's Napa Viognier is excellent, as is
> Beckman's from Cent. Coast CA.

Thanks for the tips. I'll look for those producers.

Mark Lipton

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:24:30 -0600, "Sean E. Slindee"
> wrote:

>Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the cob

FWIW, I've enjoyed the Pine Ridge Chenin Blanc - Viognier blend. I
don't know what the ratio is, but I found it to be a good match with
about three appetizers and an entree (sharing with my girlfriend) at the
local P.F. Chang's.

K