I've been on an Italian binge lately, and grabbed a few yesterday from a
local shop. Actually, I really _love_ Italian reds, and find they offer
more for equivalent $$ than French wines, in general.

Intrigued by the tasting notes describing "white pepper and cherries", I
bought a bottle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga ($16US) and opened it today.

This wine has _tons_ of pepper - more than in any Chateauneuf I've ever
tasted - which is where I usually expect to find pepper. The color is quite
light; it could almost pass for a rosé - but it isn't. As for the cherries,
I'd say they're MIA.

I got to wondering at first if pepper is ever used as an infusion in wines -
particularly reds - and pondering the legalities of such a thing. Also got
me to thinking about cigar, cedar, anise, mint etc. and whether winemakers
"tweak" their wines to include these elements.

Then I recalled my own 1985 Pinot Noir (long gone) which displayed quite
noticeable peppery flavor, and was definitely _not_ infused with such. I
made Pinot Noir from several vintages (1983-1988), from the same block of
vines in that vineyard and _only_ the 1985 had that flavor. Incidentally,
like this Italian wine, it was very light in color - almost rosé.

So, now I'm wondering: What conditions produce this character in a wine?
Is there a correlation between color and varietal pepperiness? Is this a
better question for a viticulture NG?

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in
. com:

tle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga ($16US) and opened
> it today.
>
> This wine has _tons_ of pepper - more than in any Chateauneuf I've
> ever tasted - which is where I usually expect to find pepper. The
> color is quite light; it could almost pass for a rosé - but it isn't.
> As for the cherries, I'd say they're MIA.
>

Interesting becasue I had a bottle of Beaucastel's Les Sinards 2001 this
evening and noticed it to be quite smoth with almost no pepper! It was one
of the silky CdPs

jcoulter > wrote in message >.. .
> "Tom S" > wrote in
> . com:
>
> tle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga ($16US) and opened
> > it today.
> >
> > This wine has _tons_ of pepper - more than in any Chateauneuf I've
> > ever tasted - which is where I usually expect to find pepper. The
> > color is quite light; it could almost pass for a rosé - but it isn't.
> > As for the cherries, I'd say they're MIA.
> >
>
> Interesting becasue I had a bottle of Beaucastel's Les Sinards 2001 this
> evening and noticed it to be quite smoth with almost no pepper! It was one
> of the silky CdPs

In a related note, for me (and I believe it's a generally accepted
characteristic) of Gruner Veltliner is white pepper. I know because I
_really_ don't like the smell of white pepper so when Gruner has it, I
notice it.

Peter

>In a related note, for me (and I believe it's a generally accepted
>characteristic) of Gruner Veltliner is white pepper.

yeah, I opened this thread thinking we were talking GV! I've occasionally
gotten whiffs of white pepper in CdP, but mostly I get a more generic "peppery"
sense.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
> I've been on an Italian binge lately, and grabbed a few yesterday from a
> local shop. Actually, I really _love_ Italian reds, and find they offer
> more for equivalent $$ than French wines, in general.
>
> Intrigued by the tasting notes describing "white pepper and cherries", I
> bought a bottle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga ($16US) and opened it
today.
>
> This wine has _tons_ of pepper - more than in any Chateauneuf I've ever
> tasted - which is where I usually expect to find pepper. The color is
quite
> light; it could almost pass for a rosé - but it isn't. As for the
cherries,
> I'd say they're MIA.
>
> I got to wondering at first if pepper is ever used as an infusion in
wines -
> particularly reds - and pondering the legalities of such a thing. Also
got
> me to thinking about cigar, cedar, anise, mint etc. and whether winemakers
> "tweak" their wines to include these elements.
>
> Then I recalled my own 1985 Pinot Noir (long gone) which displayed quite
> noticeable peppery flavor, and was definitely _not_ infused with such. I
> made Pinot Noir from several vintages (1983-1988), from the same block of
> vines in that vineyard and _only_ the 1985 had that flavor. Incidentally,
> like this Italian wine, it was very light in color - almost rosé.
>
> So, now I'm wondering: What conditions produce this character in a wine?
> Is there a correlation between color and varietal pepperiness? Is this a
> better question for a viticulture NG?
>
> Tom S


I have no idea what conditions produce this characteristic, but I've noticed
white pepper notes in many of the petite sirahs I've had.

Ciò che ha detto
Tom S )
è così interessante, che devo dire la mia:

> I've been on an Italian binge lately, and grabbed a few yesterday
> from a local shop. Actually, I really _love_ Italian reds, and find
> they offer more for equivalent $$ than French wines, in general.
>
> Intrigued by the tasting notes describing "white pepper and
> cherries", I bought a bottle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga ($16US)
> and opened it today.
>
> This wine has _tons_ of pepper -

Pelaverga is a minor Piedemont grape, marked by spicyness. If you find it,
try also the Ruché (from Castagnole Monferrato, other minor Piedmont) that
has pepper but also a lot of fruit.

Luk

In ,
Luk > typed:

> Ciò che ha detto
> Tom S )

>> Intrigued by the tasting notes describing "white pepper and
>> cherries", I bought a bottle of 2002 Cadia Verduno Pelaverga
($16US)
>> and opened it today.
>>
>> This wine has _tons_ of pepper -
>
> Pelaverga is a minor Piedemont grape, marked by spicyness.


Is it only recently that this is being grown? Having never heard
of it before, I checked the indexes of all four of my Italian
wine reference books; none of them mention it.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

"Ken Blake" > wrote in message
...
> > Pelaverga is a minor Piedemont grape, marked by spicyness.
>
>
> Is it only recently that this is being grown? Having never heard
> of it before, I checked the indexes of all four of my Italian
> wine reference books; none of them mention it.

I checked online, but the websites are all in Italian. Looks like it's been
around for close to a decade at least though.

Tom S

Ciò che ha detto
Ken Blake )
è così interessante, che devo dire la mia:

Pelaverga is a minor Piedemont grape, marked by spicyness.
>
>
> Is it only recently that this is being grown? Having never heard
> of it before, I checked the indexes of all four of my Italian
> wine reference books; none of them mention it.

No, it is an ancient and recently re-discovered grape.

Luk

http://www.langhe.net/inglese/pag_vi...ini&quale=0011

In . com,
Tom S > typed:
> "Ken Blake" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > Pelaverga is a minor Piedemont grape, marked by spicyness.
>>
>>
>> Is it only recently that this is being grown? Having never
heard
>> of it before, I checked the indexes of all four of my Italian
>> wine reference books; none of them mention it.
>
> I checked online, but the websites are all in Italian. Looks
like
> it's been around for close to a decade at least though.


Thanks. Three out of those four references are over a decade old,
so that may be my problem.


--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

"Tom S" > wrote in message .com>...

> So, now I'm wondering: What conditions produce this character in a wine?
> Is there a correlation between color and varietal pepperiness? Is this a
> better question for a viticulture NG?
>
> Tom S

Did some digging around, and this is what I found: "pepper" essence
can be obtained by distilling the ripe berries of Piper Nigrum, which
is apparantly a climbing plant. This essence contains terpenic
hydrocarbons. It lacks the piquant character of the pepper grain, but
the "pepper" smell found in wine also lacks that piquant edge. I
think here we are really talking about black pepper, but so it goes.

The place where I found this almost useless bit of information lists
the following Italian wines (among many from elsewhere) as having
"fine expression of pepper":
Tenimenti Angelini, Val di Suga, Brunello de Montalcino
Barbaresco, Bruno Giacoja
Barolo, Sandrone, Cannucci Boschis
Barolo, Clerico, Mentin Ginesta

(they also list Umathum St.Laurent Vom Stein from Austria, and Ridge
Cab from the US)

I doubt that a vintner adds this essence. Most likely it is as other
"notes" a some chemical compound produced in the winemaking is
either the same or close enough that it lends that aroma.

Please, somebody give a better answer!
e. winemonger

On 18 May 2004 20:46:51 -0700, (winemonger)
wrote:

>"Tom S" > wrote in message .com>...
>
>> So, now I'm wondering: What conditions produce this character in a wine?
>> Is there a correlation between color and varietal pepperiness? Is this a
>> better question for a viticulture NG?
>>
>> Tom S
>
>Did some digging around, and this is what I found: "pepper" essence
>can be obtained by distilling the ripe berries of Piper Nigrum, which
>is apparantly a climbing plant. This essence contains terpenic
>hydrocarbons. It lacks the piquant character of the pepper grain, but
>the "pepper" smell found in wine also lacks that piquant edge. I
>think here we are really talking about black pepper, but so it goes.

White and black pepper are from the same plant. Indeed the flavours
change. Both are piper nigrum. Most pepper is a non-descript blend of
many peppers, like most tea or most chocolate. It is interesting to
actually learn the individual characteristics of distinct "growths" of
pepper. White pepper from the Congo for example has a distinct animal
aroma which can put you off at first, but when actually used in
cooking it somehow becomes soft and spicy.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"White pepper" is particularly evident in cool climate syrah. The
Penfolds Coonawarra Bin 128 is classic with its lifted white pepper
aromas.

Many recent Northern California Syrahs show this powerfully on the nose
and front palate.


It is desirable only when it fades to exhibit the deep and delicious
black fruit inherent in the varietal.

Once you identify this aroma, it is unmistakeable.

I have never tasted white pepper in a white wine, and would love to know
of a Gruner Veltliner where it is obvious.

(D T) wrote in message >...

> I have never tasted white pepper in a white wine, and would love to know
> of a Gruner Veltliner where it is obvious.

Johann Donabaum Loibner Garten 2002

But if you're writing from the US, I'll give you another example which
is more easily available.

winemonger wrote:

> I doubt that a vintner adds this essence. Most likely it is as other
> "notes" a some chemical compound produced in the winemaking is
> either the same or close enough that it lends that aroma.

Emily,
The principal source of the pepper aroma is a chemical known as piperonal. It is closely related to several
other flavorants known to occur in wine, so it is not unlikely that is does crop up (in small quantity in certain
wines). Certainly, I have run across "pepper" in Zinfandel, Petite Sirah, Grenache and GV.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton > wrote in message >...

> Emily,
> The principal source of the pepper aroma is a chemical known as piperonal. It is closely related to several
> other flavorants known to occur in wine, so it is not unlikely that is does crop up (in small quantity in certain
> wines). Certainly, I have run across "pepper" in Zinfandel, Petite Sirah, Grenache and GV.
>
> Mark Lipton

Thanks Mark.

Now I wonder if it is a slightly different compound make-up for the
"black pepper" note vs. the "white pepper" note. I once found a
website where a group of chemists began listing the breakdowns for
these wine aromas.... tried to find it just now but couldn't.

emily