jcoulter

That doesnt really show much.


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> >> This thread is the most amazing one ever... Now, mr Vega, you seem to
> >> be utterly unable to realize that wine making is completely different
> >> in Germany.
> >
> > What makes you think I dont realize winemaking in Germany is
> > different.?
> >
> >
> >
> > I completely understand that under-ripe grapes have lots of acidity,,
> > what I cant understand is how a 14% wine with residual sugar can have
> > alot of acidity. Some posted harvest numbers on German grapes. The
> > TA was extremely high but I didnt see any info on sugar content. It
> > might be because of a conversion rate.
> >
> > Anyway,, if someone can show me grapes numbers at 26+ brix with
> > .6+TA,, than I would be happy to adjust my statement that started this
> > thread. I would love to do so.
> see http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in news:RNQec.48385
:

> jcoulter
>
> That doesnt really show much.
>

>> >
>> > Anyway,, if someone can show me grapes numbers at 26+ brix with
>> > .6+TA,, than I would be happy to adjust my statement that started
this
>> > thread. I would love to do so.
>> see http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
>
>
>

http://www.google.com/groups?
q=+acidity+OR+german+author:jcoulter&hl=en&lr=&ie= UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=
1&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=3&as_miny=2004&as_m axd=13&as_maxm=4
&as_maxy=2004&selm=Xns94C5E6A913343225stellar%4021 6.196.97.136&rnum=5
&filter=0
reports

Estates by region
MOSEL-SAAR-RUWER

MÖNCHHOF
Harvest was about 20% above normal with acid levels ranging from 8gm/l
to 11gm/l. Quality breakdown is 25% QbA, 30% Kabinett, 40% Spätlese, 500
l of a superb Auslese (Erdener Treppchen) and 350 l BA Ürziger
Würzgarten - it may surpass the great 1976 BA - almost 150 Öchsle at
9.2gm/l acidity).


usiong the conversion rates found at
http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf

you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l acidity

your simple, you are welcome will suffice.

In article >, "Vincent Vega"
> writes:

>Anyway,, if someone can show me grapes numbers at 26+ brix with .6+TA,, than
>I would be happy to adjust my statement that started this thread. I would
>love to do so.

http://www.darting.de/dr.htm

Note the Auslese picked at 130 O (about 29 Brix, I think) with 16 g/L acidity.
I'm sure there are more extreme examples (I've tasted BAs, Eisweins, and TBAs
with very high acidity), but I had Darting's page saved.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>
> usiong the conversion rates found at
> http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
>
> you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l acidity
>
> your simple, you are welcome will suffice.

What type of wine is made from this? 33.9brix??? Dessert wines? Ice
wines?

>
> usiong the conversion rates found at
> http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
>
> you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l acidity
>
> your simple, you are welcome will suffice.

Is the must or the grapes 33.9brix? They are two different things.

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in news:kOUec.45304
:

>
>>
>> usiong the conversion rates found at
>> http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
>>
>> you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l acidity
>>
>> your simple, you are welcome will suffice.
>
> Is the must or the grapes 33.9brix? They are two different things.
>
>
>

I have done enough of your homework ass(*(* figure it out for yourself. You
said deliver brix and acid I did you have not apologized aor said thank
you. Despite what your maother might tell you, You are a jerk!! OK

Kill file way too late engaged.

jcoulter > wrote:

>>> usiong the conversion rates found at
>>> http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
>>>
>>> you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l
>>> acidity
>>>
>>> your simple, you are welcome will suffice.

>> Is the must or the grapes 33.9brix? They are two different
>> things.

> I have done enough of your homework ass(*(* figure it out for
> yourself.

Keep cool, boy. Apparently they have never told him that brix (as
other scales such as babo, beaumé, oechsle etc.) is a scale to
measure certain properties of *liquids* - and liquids only.

Glad to have put him into my killfile long ago.

M.

You people are the idiots.

The juice of the grape can easily be much different from the juice of the
must.

When an ice wine is made,, as I am assuming this is because I have never
heard of a grape getting to 33.9brix,, the grapes are frozen on the vine.
They are pressed and as the juice thaws, the first liquid to drop out is the
sugar, and flavor and acids. The water is retained. In other words, the
must is concentrated and the water retained in the grapes is then discarded.

Obviously the sugar level would be much higher in this style of must than a
normal crush.

Michael and jcoulter are happy to discount me as a fool but is clear that
they have no clue what they are talking about. I am a jerk,, as jcoulter
says. To me a jerk is someone who killfiles in the middle of a
converstation.

A jerk is someone who claims to know about winemaking but dont understand
the difference between grape juice and a must.



"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> jcoulter > wrote:
>
> >>> usiong the conversion rates found at
> >>> http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
> >>>
> >>> you will find that this must was 33.9 brix and 9.2 gm/l
> >>> acidity
> >>>
> >>> your simple, you are welcome will suffice.
>
> >> Is the must or the grapes 33.9brix? They are two different
> >> things.
>
> > I have done enough of your homework ass(*(* figure it out for
> > yourself.
>
> Keep cool, boy. Apparently they have never told him that brix (as
> other scales such as babo, beaumé, oechsle etc.) is a scale to
> measure certain properties of *liquids* - and liquids only.
>
> Glad to have put him into my killfile long ago.
>
> M.

Again,, I ask,, where is the evidence of this mystery grape that rippens to
33brix and .9TA?

"Vincent Vega" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Anyway,, if someone can show me grapes numbers at 26+ brix with .6+TA,,
than
> I would be happy to adjust my statement that started this thread. I would
> love to do so.
>
<sigh.., don't think you will...>
Weingut Sybille Kuntz, 1999 Lieser Niederberg-Helden Riesling
Trockenbeerenauslese at 43.3Brix and 10gr/l acid, price 130Euros for a half
bottle of 0.375 litres.
The 2002 measured in at 51.3Brix, but I don't have the acidity.
Anders

Grapes do not get to 46 brix. Do you people understand the difference
between ice wines and table wines?


"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vincent Vega" > skrev i melding
> ...
> >
> > Anyway,, if someone can show me grapes numbers at 26+ brix with .6+TA,,
> than
> > I would be happy to adjust my statement that started this thread. I
would
> > love to do so.
> >
> <sigh.., don't think you will...>
> Weingut Sybille Kuntz, 1999 Lieser Niederberg-Helden Riesling
> Trockenbeerenauslese at 43.3Brix and 10gr/l acid, price 130Euros for a
half
> bottle of 0.375 litres.
> The 2002 measured in at 51.3Brix, but I don't have the acidity.
> Anders
>
>

"Vincent Vega" > skrev i melding
...
> Grapes do not get to 46 brix. Do you people understand the difference
> between ice wines and table wines?
>
A Schloss Vollrads Riesling Trockenbeerenauslese 2003 reached 60.3Brix and
16g/l acid.
You should know the difference between Eiswein and Trockenbeerenauslese if
you are in the business...
Anders

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:41:29 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>You people are the idiots.
>
>The juice of the grape can easily be much different from the juice of the
>must.
>
>When an ice wine is made,, as I am assuming this is because I have never
>heard of a grape getting to 33.9brix,, the grapes are frozen on the vine.

33.9 Brix is merely Beerenausleses, or Ausbruch. No need to freeze, it
happens with botrytis.


Anyhow, this thread is ridiculous, just stop feeding it guys, it takes
up bandwidth.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:34:14 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Grapes do not get to 46 brix. Do you people understand the difference
>between ice wines and table wines?

That's only about 550 g/l of sugar. I know of wines in the Loire,
Gaillac and Tokaj that go way past that.

Shit, I replied to the damn thread. Last one.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
news
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:41:29 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >You people are the idiots.
> >
> >The juice of the grape can easily be much different from the juice of the
> >must.
> >
> >When an ice wine is made,, as I am assuming this is because I have never
> >heard of a grape getting to 33.9brix,, the grapes are frozen on the vine.
>
> 33.9 Brix is merely Beerenausleses, or Ausbruch. No need to freeze, it
> happens with botrytis.

botrytis fruit,, concentrated juice, ice wine --- same concept. Besides for
you Mike,, it seems the people here dont know squat about winemaking,, but I
am the idiot?
>
>
> Anyhow, this thread is ridiculous, just stop feeding it guys, it takes
> up bandwidth.
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

These are not ripe grapes,, they are dehydrated. Why cant anyone here see
the difference.


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:34:14 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >Grapes do not get to 46 brix. Do you people understand the difference
> >between ice wines and table wines?
>
> That's only about 550 g/l of sugar. I know of wines in the Loire,
> Gaillac and Tokaj that go way past that.
>
> Shit, I replied to the damn thread. Last one.
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 02:17:14 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:
>st helier,
>You are a mind numb sloth.
Why don't you tell him what you really think of him?

>You know as much about winemaking as I do about
>wines of the world.
That appears to be a compliment if you really do know as much about
wines of the world as you have claimed here.

>If you want to know if I am a "real" winemaker and
>grower just ask the opinion of the other winemakers/chemist here.
By posting this, you are sort of asking the question yourself. We'll
see what responses you get.

>I have
>only seen 2 or 3 people in these forums that understand winemaking.
I haven't "seen" any of them if I interpret this word literally. I
have only read what many of them have written. But seriously (or as
"serious" as one can be in replying to one of your posts),
"understand[ing] winemaking" is not a "you do or you don't"
proposition. I have never heard of anyone who claimed to know
everything there is to know about winemaking, although some of your
postings have come very close.

>Your
>claims that I dont know my business makes me chuckle,,,
You're saying that you have a sense of humor? It sure hasn't been
evident until now.

>especially if others
>take your word seriously.
The main problem with this thread is that too many people have taken
YOU seriously. I'll be the first to admit my own complicity.

Vino

To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

>> What's the minimum brix for German Kabinett or Spatlesen?
>
>For Kabinett it's - depending on area and grape variety - between
>67 and 85 °Oechsle, which corresponds to 16.2 to 20.3 brix. For
>Spätese it's 85 to 95 °Oe = 20.3 to 22.6 brix.
>
>Absolutely no need to acidify on these levels - nor on higher,
>btw.
>
>M.
>
Thanks Michael

This is certainly nowhere near the 26 brix that Vincent claimed would lead to
low acidity. Moreover, the alcohol levels in these wines are generally much
less than the 13% to which Vincent refers.

The fact that the late harvest wines (Auslese and higher) retain their acidity,
as I infer from your statement above, seems to come in conflict with Vincent's
statements that high brix neccesarily means low acid. Certainly, I trust your
word on this point, and would have to defer to a chemist for an explanation.

Tom Schellberg

Vincent Vega wrote:

> You people are the idiots.
>
> The juice of the grape can easily be much different from the juice of the
> must.
>
> When an ice wine is made,, as I am assuming this is because I have never
> heard of a grape getting to 33.9brix,, the grapes are frozen on the vine.
> They are pressed and as the juice thaws, the first liquid to drop out is the
> sugar, and flavor and acids. The water is retained. In other words, the
> must is concentrated and the water retained in the grapes is then discarded.
>
> Obviously the sugar level would be much higher in this style of must than a
> normal crush.
>
> Michael and jcoulter are happy to discount me as a fool but is clear that
> they have no clue what they are talking about. I am a jerk,, as jcoulter
> says. To me a jerk is someone who killfiles in the middle of a
> converstation.
>
> A jerk is someone who claims to know about winemaking but dont understand
> the difference between grape juice and a must.

Boy, I sure hope I'm not going to regret this. In any event, I promise to add
absolutely _no_ further discussion anywhere in this thread.

----

Vincent,

Let me quote from your original posting:

"The only problem is that anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just about wine producing
nation in the world,, even if they don't tell you." [sic] [Presumably you
meant, "... just about *every* wine producing nation ...".]

In a later posting (April 6th), you state:

"Either the fruit is under ripe and high in acid or it is rippend and acid is
added." [sic]

It's true your initial statement _might_ have been referring to the Sauvignon
Blanc discussion in the previous paragraph, but _nowhere_ in your original
posting (or later) did you indicate _any_ qualifications on these two statements
listed above.

Now you have been shown evidence by knowledgeable sources that this is _not_ so
in the case of most German/Austrian wines. (With BAs, and TBA, being extreme
examples.) You have refused to acknowledge that your initial statement (that
everyone adds acid) _might_ have been in error (or that there _might_ have been
a misunderstanding about what you meant). How do you expect people to take you
seriously?

You provide no bona fides other than your _own_ statement that you have "a
wealth of knowledge about winemaking", but refuse to provide any particulars
about that experience. You repeatedly tell people that _they_ don't know what
they're talking about, but _they_ have proven their knowledge and experience
(and reliability and identity) over many months/years of participation in this
newsgroup, while you have come in to start one thread which included a patently
false claim. (See above.) The internet is an interesting environment. For
example, I could claim to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Why would anyone
in their right mind believe that without some proof that could be verified
independently?

You object to being labeled a "troll". Perhaps you're not, but the fact is that
a lot of the behavior you exhibit is very _typical_ of internet trolls. That
being the case, if you _really_ want to be taken seriously, perhaps it behooves
you to examine your behavior from the viewpoint of a third party. Try to see
yourself (and your delivery) as _others_ see you. It may help to listen to what
others are saying and try to understand what _they_ are trying to say and not
dismiss them simply because they're saying something that differs from _your_
understanding. Are you sure that there's not a communication disconnect, for
example?

To be honest, I'm surprised that you're still here, given that you think this
forum is mostly full of idiots. And it's not clear what you hope(d) to
accomplish. But it's a free country and I'll not condemn you for saying what
you want. (Nor those who've decided it's not worth listening to.) I _will_ say
it does nothing for an "intelligent" discussion to call someone an idiot because
they don't agree with you or say nice things about you. Why descend to their
level if you're so sure you're in the "right"? Maintain your civility to show
that you _are_ a serious participant.

Well, this has been too much fun. I'm done contributing my bit to this thread
and apologize to those who feel I owe them an apology for contributing to the
length of this thread. I promise I'll participate no further in it.

Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark
Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

>I never suggested that high brix and high alcohol destroys acid. High brix
>and high alcohol is a good representation of how long the grapes were left
>to hang/how late the harvest was.

>snip basics of winemaking

>If an off dry wine has 2% residual sugar (and no sugar was added) and a 12%
>alcohol it would have had to start at about 26 brix. A wine with 2%
>residual and 10% alcohol probably started at about 24 brix.

>A wine at 14.5
>% alcohol and no residual sugar would start at about 27 brix.

Vincent

I have to rewrite this, as my computer crashed as I attempted my response over
the weekend.

As is stated in Michael Pronay's posting, the off dry German Kabinetts and
Spatlesen have brix from 16 to 22. They also have alcohol levels below 10%.
This seems to jibe with the figures you are stating, and are certainly less
than the 26 brix you say will cause problems with low acidity. If you consider
them underripe, I guess that's a matter of opinion.

The WA state off dry Rieslings are usually higher alcohol (if their labels are
to be believed), such as 12%. If residual sugar were 2%, that would correspond
to 26 brix, according to your figures. There is no question that their final
product, even after the likely addition of acidity, is much lower acid than the
equivalent product from Germany.

As for the assertion by others that the late harvest German Rieslings (Auslese
or higher) would retain high natural acidity, this seems to conflict with what
you are stating. These wines would have must sugar levels of above 26 brix,
although they often have alcohol levels of 10% or less. Again, fermentation
would be stopped to make a sweet wine. (I realize that some late harvest wines
would still be sweet if the fermentation were not stopped, but that's a
different issue.)

So, I think I've resolved in my mind some of the issues concerning high acidity
of some European wines.

Thanks for your discussion about winemaking.

Tom Schellberg

"Mike Tommasi" wrote in message ..

> Shit, I replied to the damn thread. Last one.

Yes, VV certainly gets under ones skin, doesn't he/she!!!!

I killfiled the jerk - but, his ramblings still gets through via replies
etc.

Despite his trying to remain anonymous, he does connect via the ISP Verizon,
which is based in Virginia; New Jersey, and Maryland so I guess that *if* he
does grow grapes and make wine in is in this corner of the US

I still think that he is a legend in his own mind because he claims to have
*personally* made over 1m gallons of wine.

The largest winery in Virginia is Williamsburg Winery which make about 70k
cases per year (that is, by my reckoning 165k US gallons).

Another of the larger producers is Barboursville which make about 95k US
gallons.

I can only conclude that, perhaps VV makes ALL the wine in VA.

Because I had a little time on my hands (with SWMBO away for the night) I
did a little research about grapegrowing and winemaking in that region.

Very interesting reading was found, compliments of Virginia Tech at
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/viticultu...19/463-019.pdf

You recall how VV seems to have this fixation about grapes being harvested
at 26 brix.

Well, that sort of ripeness is very rare in VA - and TA figures seem to
suggest that acidification would seldom, if ever, be required.

So, read whatever you like onto the above - I personally think that VV is
suffering from an acute case of imaginitis.

--
st.helier; Auckland; NZ
email - hukerenui at hotmail dot com

Verizon is National in the USA. I don't know if the header you are reading
can really pin down where the poster is due to that.
dick
"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Tommasi" wrote in message ..
>
> > Shit, I replied to the damn thread. Last one.
>
> Yes, VV certainly gets under ones skin, doesn't he/she!!!!
>
> I killfiled the jerk - but, his ramblings still gets through via replies
> etc.
>
> Despite his trying to remain anonymous, he does connect via the ISP
Verizon,
> which is based in Virginia; New Jersey, and Maryland so I guess that *if*
he
> does grow grapes and make wine in is in this corner of the US
>
> I still think that he is a legend in his own mind because he claims to
have
> *personally* made over 1m gallons of wine.
>
> The largest winery in Virginia is Williamsburg Winery which make about 70k
> cases per year (that is, by my reckoning 165k US gallons).
>
> Another of the larger producers is Barboursville which make about 95k US
> gallons.
>
> I can only conclude that, perhaps VV makes ALL the wine in VA.
>
> Because I had a little time on my hands (with SWMBO away for the night) I
> did a little research about grapegrowing and winemaking in that region.
>
> Very interesting reading was found, compliments of Virginia Tech at
> http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/viticultu...19/463-019.pdf
>
> You recall how VV seems to have this fixation about grapes being harvested
> at 26 brix.
>
> Well, that sort of ripeness is very rare in VA - and TA figures seem to
> suggest that acidification would seldom, if ever, be required.
>
> So, read whatever you like onto the above - I personally think that VV
is
> suffering from an acute case of imaginitis.
>
> --
> st.helier; Auckland; NZ
> email - hukerenui at hotmail dot com
>
>

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
...
> botrytis fruit,, concentrated juice, ice wine --- same concept.

Those are three _totally_ different ways of concentrating grape juice.
Botrytis changes the basic flavor of the juice, adding that honey-like
characteristic. Grape concentrates are usually made either by evaporation
of much of the water or reverse osmosis. Ice wine (Eiswein) is made from
frozen grapes that are pressed while still frozen, causing much of the water
to be left behind in the press, thus concentrating that which remains.

Besides for
> you Mike,, it seems the people here dont know squat about winemaking,, but
I
> am the idiot?

Unfortunately.

Tom S

>
> Vincent,
>
> Let me quote from your original posting:
>
> "The only problem is that anyone who has a beginners knowledge of
winemaking
> knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just about wine
producing
> nation in the world,, even if they don't tell you." [sic] [Presumably
you
> meant, "... just about *every* wine producing nation ...".]
>
> In a later posting (April 6th), you state:
>
> "Either the fruit is under ripe and high in acid or it is rippend and acid
is
> added." [sic]
>
> It's true your initial statement _might_ have been referring to the
Sauvignon
> Blanc discussion in the previous paragraph, but _nowhere_ in your original
> posting (or later) did you indicate _any_ qualifications on these two
statements
> listed above.

It seems you are quoting two different discussions. I would be happy to
change my original statement to:

"The only problem is that anyone who has a beginners knowledge of
winemaking
knows that acid additions are currently practiced by MOST wine producing
nation in the world,, even if they don't tell you. (and except for dessert
wines made in Germany)"

Does that help?


>
> Now you have been shown evidence by knowledgeable sources that this is
_not_ so
> in the case of most German/Austrian wines. (With BAs, and TBA, being
extreme
> examples.) You have refused to acknowledge that your initial statement
(that
> everyone adds acid) _might_ have been in error (or that there _might_ have
been
> a misunderstanding about what you meant). How do you expect people to
take you
> seriously?

I have been shown NO EVIDENCE. I was shown some .pdf of german musts and I
was shown some number for concentrated juices. When I stated that there is
a difference between "ripe fruit" and these things, I was laughed at (it
doesnt seem that many people here can comprehend the difference). Even
without evidence,, I am happy to adjust my original statement,, as I did.
I am not sure what your problem with me is. I am just curious and would
really love to see these grapes that RIPPEN to 26 brix and 1.2TA.
Like you,, people try to put words in my mouth. You quote me as saying
"your initial statement (that everyone adds acid) "
I never said EVERYONE adds acid. How do you expect someone to take you
seriously when you misrepresent the conversation.?



>
> You provide no bona fides other than your _own_ statement that you have "a
> wealth of knowledge about winemaking", but refuse to provide any
particulars
> about that experience. You repeatedly tell people that _they_ don't know
what
> they're talking about, but _they_ have proven their knowledge and
experience
> (and reliability and identity) over many months/years of participation in
this
> newsgroup, while you have come in to start one thread which included a
patently
> false claim. (See above.) The internet is an interesting environment.
For
> example, I could claim to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Why would
anyone
> in their right mind believe that without some proof that could be verified
> independently?

What particulars would you like to know. I never claimed to be an expert in
wines of the world.


>
> You object to being labeled a "troll". Perhaps you're not, but the fact
is that
> a lot of the behavior you exhibit is very _typical_ of internet trolls.
That
> being the case, if you _really_ want to be taken seriously, perhaps it
behooves
> you to examine your behavior from the viewpoint of a third party. Try to
see
> yourself (and your delivery) as _others_ see you. It may help to listen
to what
> others are saying and try to understand what _they_ are trying to say and
not
> dismiss them simply because they're saying something that differs from
_your_
> understanding. Are you sure that there's not a communication disconnect,
for
> example?

troll seems to be a person who disagrees with the majority.



>

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> >> What's the minimum brix for German Kabinett or Spatlesen?
> >
> >For Kabinett it's - depending on area and grape variety - between
> >67 and 85 °Oechsle, which corresponds to 16.2 to 20.3 brix. For
> >Spätese it's 85 to 95 °Oe = 20.3 to 22.6 brix.
> >
> >Absolutely no need to acidify on these levels - nor on higher,
> >btw.
> >
> >M.
> >
> Thanks Michael
>
> This is certainly nowhere near the 26 brix that Vincent claimed would lead
to
> low acidity. Moreover, the alcohol levels in these wines are generally
much
> less than the 13% to which Vincent refers.
>
> The fact that the late harvest wines (Auslese and higher) retain their
acidity,
> as I infer from your statement above, seems to come in conflict with
Vincent's
> statements that high brix neccesarily means low acid. Certainly, I trust
your
> word on this point, and would have to defer to a chemist for an
explanation.
>
> Tom Schellberg


Tom,,
You are comparing apples to oranges. It seems the numbers people are
quoting here are from concentrated juices. These are juices/grapes that
have been dehydrated by one means or another. Certainly they will have
higher sugar and acidity if there is no water. I was under the impression
that Germany made wines other than these concentrated types. I guess not,,
because these are the only numbers I see posted.

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> >I never suggested that high brix and high alcohol destroys acid. High
brix
> >and high alcohol is a good representation of how long the grapes were
left
> >to hang/how late the harvest was.
>
> >snip basics of winemaking
>
> >If an off dry wine has 2% residual sugar (and no sugar was added) and a
12%
> >alcohol it would have had to start at about 26 brix. A wine with 2%
> >residual and 10% alcohol probably started at about 24 brix.
>
> >A wine at 14.5
> >% alcohol and no residual sugar would start at about 27 brix.
>
> Vincent
>
> I have to rewrite this, as my computer crashed as I attempted my response
over
> the weekend.
>
> As is stated in Michael Pronay's posting, the off dry German Kabinetts and
> Spatlesen have brix from 16 to 22. They also have alcohol levels below
10%.
> This seems to jibe with the figures you are stating, and are certainly
less
> than the 26 brix you say will cause problems with low acidity. If you
consider
> them underripe, I guess that's a matter of opinion.

Agreed. I dont see a controversy.



> The WA state off dry Rieslings are usually higher alcohol (if their labels
are
> to be believed), such as 12%. If residual sugar were 2%, that would
correspond
> to 26 brix, according to your figures. There is no question that their
final
> product, even after the likely addition of acidity, is much lower acid
than the
> equivalent product from Germany.

Either that,, or they are fortified with sugar. Agreed.


>
> As for the assertion by others that the late harvest German Rieslings
(Auslese
> or higher) would retain high natural acidity, this seems to conflict with
what
> you are stating. These wines would have must sugar levels of above 26
brix,
> although they often have alcohol levels of 10% or less. Again,
fermentation
> would be stopped to make a sweet wine. (I realize that some late harvest
wines
> would still be sweet if the fermentation were not stopped, but that's a
> different issue.)

But I think we have concluded that these are concentrated wines,, so they
really are not relevent to the conversation.
But I agree.


>
> So, I think I've resolved in my mind some of the issues concerning high
acidity
> of some European wines.
>
> Thanks for your discussion about winemaking.

Thank you for your discussion. It is ashame that others can not have a
logical rationaly conversation as we just did.

dick wrote:
> Verizon is National in the USA. I don't know if the header you are reading
> can really pin down where the poster is due to that.

You're correct about Verizon, Dick, but the IP address does locate his
computer in the Delaware Valley region of NJ, quite close to
Philadelphia. He could easily be a winemaker in either S. Jersey or
Bucks County, PA, but I have no idea if any of the wineries in those
regions is as big as he implies in his statements, nor in the end do I
care enough to investigate.

Mark Lipton

OT-how do you do that?


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> dick wrote:
> > Verizon is National in the USA. I don't know if the header you are
reading
> > can really pin down where the poster is due to that.
>
> You're correct about Verizon, Dick, but the IP address does locate his
> computer in the Delaware Valley region of NJ, quite close to
> Philadelphia. He could easily be a winemaker in either S. Jersey or
> Bucks County, PA, but I have no idea if any of the wineries in those
> regions is as big as he implies in his statements, nor in the end do I
> care enough to investigate.
>
> Mark Lipton

>> You're correct about Verizon, Dick, but the IP address does locate his
>> computer in the Delaware Valley region of NJ, quite close to
>> Philadelphia. He could easily be a winemaker in either S. Jersey or
>> Bucks County, PA, but I have no idea if any of the wineries in those
>> regions is as big as he implies in his statements, nor in the end do I
>> care enough to investigate.
>>
>> Mark Lipton

I guess if Vincent would just quit playing "cat and mouse" and tell us where
his base of experience is it would be much easier to respond to his message. I
guess I have a problem with the broad brush in which he paints the issue of
acidification and the implication of fraud. Over the years I have found this
to be a very well informed serious group and quite inclusive rather than
exclusive.
Bi!!

On 14 Apr 2004 07:45:22 GMT, (Xyzsch) wrote:

>The WA state off dry Rieslings are usually higher alcohol (if their labels are
>to be believed), such as 12%.
Why do you question the accuracy of the percent alcohol printed on the
label of a WA riesling? That information is required by law and,
within a certain tolerance, must be accurate. And it's not like some
procedure that is prohibited by law but that can be done in the dead
of night with no evidence left behind to tell the tale. All that would
be necessary to prove the label inaccurate would be for someone to
purchase a bottle and have it tested.

>If residual sugar were 2%, that would correspond
>to 26 brix, according to your figures. There is no question that their final
>product, even after the likely addition of acidity,
I won't argue that acidity adjustments NEVER take place, but what
evidence do you have that they are "likely"?

>is much lower acid than the equivalent product from Germany.
I question the use of the term "equivalent product" here. The
following link will take you to a spec sheet for a particular WA
riesling. What would you call the "equivalent" German product?

http://www.columbiawinery.com/img/pd...CellarRies.pdf

Don't want to start an argument. Would just like some clarification of
your earlier comments.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

>I guess if Vincent would just quit playing "cat and mouse" and tell us where
>his base of experience is it would be much easier to respond to his message.
>I
>guess I have a problem with the broad brush in which he paints the issue of
>acidification and the implication of fraud. Over the years I have found this
>to be a very well informed serious group and quite inclusive rather than
>exclusive.
>Bi!!

Vincent where do/did you make your wines and what company do/did you work for.

George Cox

> Vincent where do/did you make your wines and what company do/did you work
for.

>

> George Cox

How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can
anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?

>How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can
>anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?

Ok, that one got you killfiled.
Bi!!

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:24:00 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>> Vincent where do/did you make your wines and what company do/did you work
>for.
>
>>
>
>> George Cox
>
>How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can
>anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?


OK, now are you all convinced that this thread must be dropped and
that this guy is a troll and has managed to occupy half the
newsgroup's bandwidth with his obnoxious drivel ?

Damn, I said I would not respond

Mike



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

> >How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can
> >anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?

Didnt think so. You people are so busy shooting the messenger,, you have
forgotten what the message was. How pathetic.

dick wrote:
> OT-how do you do that?

Dick,
I recently answered a similar question from you. Did you see my answer?

http://groups.google.com/groups?&sel...E%40purdue.edu

It also depends on your being able to view all the header records, of
which the NNTP-Posting-Host is but one. To do that in OE, see this link:

http://www.mind.net/hpage/outlookheader.html

If you want a more detailed explanation, feel free to contact me by
e-mail and we can discuss it at length.

Mark Lipton

(Xyzsch) wrote:

> The fact that the late harvest wines (Auslese and higher) retain
> their acidity, as I infer from your statement above, seems to
> come in conflict with Vincent's statements that high brix
> neccesarily means low acid. Certainly, I trust your word on this
> point, and would have to defer to a chemist for an explanation.

No need for a chemist, the answer is quite simple: grape variety in
general, and especially riesling when we talk about Germany.

M.

thanks. I see what you did and found the header.


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> dick wrote:
> > OT-how do you do that?
>
> Dick,
> I recently answered a similar question from you. Did you see my
answer?
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?&sel...E%40purdue.edu
>
> It also depends on your being able to view all the header records, of
> which the NNTP-Posting-Host is but one. To do that in OE, see this link:
>
> http://www.mind.net/hpage/outlookheader.html
>
> If you want a more detailed explanation, feel free to contact me by
> e-mail and we can discuss it at length.
>
> Mark Lipton

Vino

I'm not going to quote this last post, as this whole discussion is getting a
little hard to follow. I was just trying to clarify Vincent's position.

I certainly never questioned the alcohol levels on any bottle of wine (WA or
otherwise). I was merely citing my source of that information, as I have no
inside information about the WA wine industry. I have observed that off dry
Rieslings from Washington have higher alcohol levels (12%) than the
"equivalent" product from Germany, where the wines range, according to labels,
from 7.5 to 11%. Again, I accept these figures as correct. By "equivalent", I
was attempting to compare off dry Riesling from Washington with those from
Germany, and remind (Is that the correct word?) Vincent of the differences that
might account for the different acidities. Clearly, the WA and German wines are
very different.

Unfortunately, Vincent tends to jump around and become defensive, without
trying to zero in on the meat of the matter.
I think he is suggesting that concentrated must, either due to the freezing of
the grapes or due to botrytis, would not lose acidity as the sugar levels rise,
as would a "naturally ripening" grape. This is actually an interesting
question.

I'm happy to clarify my points. I just wish Vincent were a little less
defensive, so that we get to the correct science, without the back and forth
attacks (which, I believe, Vincent has largely precipitated).

Tom Schellberg

>Tom,,
>You are comparing apples to oranges. It seems the numbers people are
>quoting here are from concentrated juices. These are juices/grapes that
>have been dehydrated by one means or another. Certainly they will have
>higher sugar and acidity if there is no water. I was under the impression
>that Germany made wines other than these concentrated types. I guess not,,
>because these are the only numbers I see posted.

Vincent

I may be reading these posts out of order. First, I don't think there would be
two different reading for sugar levels if we are talking about botrytized
wines. The grapes are already partially dessicated when picked, due to the
action of mold. So this seems to explain why many late harvest German wines
would have high sugar and high acidity.

But botrytis is not universal in these wines, and the plot thickens. Michael
Pronay says it's the grape, but I don't have the chemisty background to support
or to refute this

Tom Schellberg