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  #201 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Vincent,
>
> In 5 days, you have sent 60, yes SIXTY posts, most of which are badly
> spelled, badly written, inconsequential and abusive. Those that haven't

been
> whining, self justifying, ill spelt and badly written that is.
>
> le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >> You generalised

>
> >> >> >The trend today is to overwrippen grapes inorder to get big complex

high alcohol wines.
> >>
> >> Where? Not in France, certainly. That's the sort of wild, unfounded
> >> generalisation that is getting you a trollish reputation.

> >
> >It is certainly the trend in California.

>
> So we're getting somewhere. You work for a winery in California (probably
> the central valley) and are responsible for several million bottles a

year.
> You feel that wine snobs (whom you define as people who think they know

more
> about wine than they do) think they know more about wine than they do. You
> define what your winery is doing as "the trend" in California, and then
> argue from a very small and insignificant particular (in terms of quality
> wine making) to the general as if it were accepted practice throughout the
> rest of the world.
>
> You can't make up your mind whether you're arguing about sulphur dioxide

in
> wine or added acid. When challenged on one, you say the other is more
> important.


I love the generalities. Feel free to be more specific so I know what you
are talking about.

?I have answered very clearly, your allegation about what french
> winemakers say about SO2. ALL (bar one) I've ever visited (and that is

well
> into 3 figures for the ones whose estates I've been to) or spoken to in
> shows etc another set of WELL into 3 figures, are completely open about
> their use of sulphur dioxide or sulphites. It simply isn't an issue for
> them, so why should they seek to hide it?


Are you French. If you read what I posted you will see that I claimed the
French tell "AMERICAN" tourist that they dont use sulfites. I dont care
what the French tell the French,, I am concerned about the French misleading
American tourist by claiming their wines are superior because they dont
contain sulfites. I havent seen you comment on this. You can hoot and
hollar all you want about what the French tell you. I am telling YOU that
dozens of people that I enteract with have told me about this French
misrepresentation. Choose not to believe me if you want,, I dont give a
damn. I am simply telling you my experience.


>
> As for acidity in very ripe grapes, I've given you specfic information

over
> which areas in Europe have wines with both high residual sugar content AND
> adequate acidity. No, I can't give you some grape juice to analyse,

because
> its the wrong time of the year. But in many parts of Europe, analysis is
> compulsory throughout the process, and in some areas acidification is
> illegal except by special dispensation. But YOU know better because your
> californian grapes (probably grown with irrigation in the Central valley)
> don't have much natural acidity when fully ripened. And you presume to

tell
> ME that this means winemakers are lying to me.


I dont make California wines,, but i do have experience with them. Nice
try.

>
> >Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar

of
> >2%.

>
> That's Riesling, by the way.
>
> > That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
> >these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a

really
> >long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.

>
> Do you? How do you know?


This is where your elitism shines. I make wine for a living. I dont think
you do (might be wrong) but you havent told me that you do. You would have
to assume that since this is my profession,, I would know this. If you know
differently,, please explain. I have asked this from someone over and over.
I believe there is a chemist in these forums that can explain this better
than I can and the gent named Tom seems to be an informed winemaker,, may be
he can elaborate. But you insulting me and claiming I dont know what I am
talking about because I am an "American",, only makes you look like a snoot.


>
> >We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with

residual
> >sugar will taste less acidic.

>
> Oh gee, wow, I never knew that. (sigh... )


sarcasim,,, it doesnt help in civilized conversations. I dont know if you
are being sincere.

>
> >How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
> >acidity?

>
> Try a Wehelener Sonnenuhr Auslese from a year like 2001 from Dr Loosen or

JJ
> Prum, and you'll find out. Try an Ockfener Bockstein Spätlese from a poor
> year and you'll see what natural acidity is all about. You'll also
> understand why in that part of Germany the debate is about whether and

when
> to add sugar, rather than acid.



That is your first attempt at explaining your view point with specifics. I
applaud you. Woohoo,, a real conversation. I wasnt sure if we were capable
of that here!!!!!!

As in a previous post I have made the assumption.( but have not said it
for fear of you calling me a troll for saying something controversial) It
is possible to reach these numbers but it is only possible if the grapes are
harvested under-ripe and alot of sugar is added to the must.

If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that acid
needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my word
for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done. PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
TELL ME.

>
> You're at least admitting that you're making assumptions. And they're
> entirely wrong. You see, these wines are not made with irrigation, many

are
> made from grapes planted on hilsides so steep that all work has to be done
> by hand. The conditions are so marginal for the vine that some years the
> grapes barely ripen at all, and the yield is tiny by Californian

standards.
> The Riesling under these conditions gives wines with VERY high natural
> acidity, and even when they ripen fully, this acidity remains. There's SO
> much tartaric acid in many of them, that when chilled suddenly, the
> tartrates deposit out as crystals. Didn't you know any of this? Because if
> you didn't, your initial criticism of wine snobs as being ignorant is
> extremely ill placed, it seems to me.


Damn,, you are still insulting me. All wines parcipitate tartrates when
reduced to low temperatures for a specific period of time; even over ripe
california fruit. It is called cold stabilization. Tartrate parcipitation
is no indicator of how much acid is in the wine.
On top of that, if you are cold stabilizing these wines,, which we can
assume are above 3.6 PH
(if no sugar is added)
the PH rises during cold stabilization, thus making the wine more unstable.
Did you know about the 3.6 cold stabilization factor?

>
> Have you heard of Botrytis cinerea? Did you know that in some

circumstances
> it can be beneficial, and give must with initial sugar content of over
> 700gms per litre, god alone KNOWS what that would be in Brix. AND with
> sufficient initial acidity to give a balanced wine that (on the few
> occasions I've been privileged to taste it) has left me speechless with
> wonder


Know about it? LOL, I was friggin wearing it last summer. I have had
some good botrytisized (spelling?) wines but the infection needs to be
controlled and under optimal conditions for it to add a benefit.

..
>
> Have you made wine from the Chenin grape? That's another grape which when
> grown in the right place, has a huge natural acidity EVEN when very ripe.
> But it's possible that when made in Californian sunshine and irrigation at
> huge yields you can't perhaps. I don't know. I'm not really very

interested
> in wines made under such conditions. (which no doubt makes me a wine

snob -
> so be it). But the problem then isn't so much that you CAN'T get the
> acidity, but that in the conditions under which _you_ grow _your_ grapes

you
> can't.


I'l agree to disagree on that point. I have seen no evidence to convince me
that a Chenin harvested at a high brix holds TA "significantly" more than
any other grape. Once again,, If you are claiming sugar is added and the
fruit is harvested early I am not disputing the grapes would have a high TA.


>
> In the meantime, you've entirely exhausted my patience and have earned

your
> way into my kill file. If and when others tell me you've learnt how to
> behave, you may be allowed out. So, don't bother to reply. I won't read

it.

Proof of the open mind. Ask me questions and then kill file me so you cant
hear the answers. How strange.




  #202 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


>
> Of course not. In our noble sweet wines (botrytised, straw wine
> and icewines) there's no need at all to add acidity.


Well it seems like Ian and you guys have a disagreement that needs to be
worked out. Keep me out of it and let me know your conclusions.


  #203 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
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Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:59:30 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that acid
>needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my word
>for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done. PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
>TELL ME.
>

I have asked chemists and experienced winemakers about this and their
unanimous answer is that it is an uwarranted generalization. This does
not preclude "acidity adjustments" from time to time. Whether this is
good, bad, or indifferent, is not the issue here. Your absolutisms
are. I have been in this business long enough to know to avoid the use
of absolutes such as "always", "never", etc.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #204 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

Vincent,

I am writing this very slow, because I now know that you are very slow on
the uptake.

In your very first post, you wrote thus..

"anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just
about (every) wine producing nation in the world"

Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply not
so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.

As to your latest gem...

> Well it seems like Ian and you guys have a disagreement
> that needs to be worked out.


You are a clown - the aforementioned Hoare, Pronay et al are in total
agreement - tis you who cannot remember from which side you are arguing.

And do you take any notice whatsoever of other posters statements of
ct - No!

Because then you would have to admit that, in reality, your experience is
very limited, to a small area within the US; where life is beautiful all the
time, and the sun beats down, and grapes ripen overnight and acid levels
diminish so that you boost them artificially - and there you sit, festering
like an ingrown toenail thinking that the whole winemaking world is the
same.

Well, it ain't - as so many of your own countrymen have tried to explain.

Get a life - get off your ass and go see the real wine-world - you will then
realise that you actually know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger all!!!!!

--

st.helier


  #205 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

> Get a life - get off your ass and go see the real wine-world
> you will then realise that you actually know 2/5 of 5/8 of
> bugger all!!!!!



Oh I forgot, you are the only person who has ever had a conversation with an
honest French winemaker aren't you?

Hohohohohohohohohohohoho!

Oops - sorry - it's Easter isn't it!

Time to start casseroling that bunny!




  #206 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:33:37 +1200, "st.helier"
> wrote:

>Vincent,
>
>In your very first post, you wrote thus..
>
>"anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
>knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just
>about (every) wine producing nation in the world"
>
>Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply not
>so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.


I am reluctant to seemingly come in to defend someone whom I have been
criticizing in earlier posts for unwarranted generalizations, and that
is not my intent here. But your posting raises as many questions to me
as it answers. I am by no means an expert on the regions you mention.
I admit that freely and please consider my concerns in that light.

My sense is that in Germany, Austria, New Zealand, and Tokaji,
"acidity adjustments" are rarely, if ever, required. But can you state
categorically that they never take place under any circumstances?
You use the term "much of France", suggesting that "acidity
adjustments" DO take place in certain places in certain years and
under certain circumstances there.

You have left out all of North America, Spain, Italy, and (with the
sole exception of New Zealand) all of the Southern Hemisphere.

What am I to make of this?

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #207 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


"Vino" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:59:30 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that

acid
> >needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my

word
> >for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done.

PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
> >TELL ME.
> >


When asking them did you include my full assumption oe just this snip?


> I have asked chemists and experienced winemakers about this and their
> unanimous answer is that it is an uwarranted generalization. This does
> not preclude "acidity adjustments" from time to time





> Whether this is
> good, bad, or indifferent, is not the issue here. Your absolutisms
> are. I have been in this business long enough to know to avoid the use
> of absolutes such as "always", "never", etc.


I agree with you 100%. I never said anything about absolute. Its the
people who are refuting me that claim "acid additions are absolutely never
done in Germany or France". Their absolutism is astonishing.



  #208 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:

>
> I agree with you 100%. I never said anything about absolute. Its the
> people who are refuting me that claim "acid additions are absolutely
> never done in Germany or France". Their absolutism is astonishing.
>
>
>
>

Actually what you said was that must at 26 Brix always needs acid
correction.
  #209 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

hel,

Do you have releveant to the discussion to add or are you simply here to
insult and troll me? All you do is say how little I know when I havent
heard you say anything relevent to the drop in TA as grapes rippen.


"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Vincent,
>
> I am writing this very slow, because I now know that you are very slow on
> the uptake.
>
> In your very first post, you wrote thus..
>
> "anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
> knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just
> about (every) wine producing nation in the world"
>
> Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply

not
> so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.
>
> As to your latest gem...
>
> > Well it seems like Ian and you guys have a disagreement
> > that needs to be worked out.

>
> You are a clown - the aforementioned Hoare, Pronay et al are in total
> agreement - tis you who cannot remember from which side you are arguing.
>
> And do you take any notice whatsoever of other posters statements of
> ct - No!
>
> Because then you would have to admit that, in reality, your experience is
> very limited, to a small area within the US; where life is beautiful all

the
> time, and the sun beats down, and grapes ripen overnight and acid levels
> diminish so that you boost them artificially - and there you sit,


Your are truely a pathetic creature. If you actually read anything I posted
you would know that I dont work in Cali and I grow in a region that has
plenty of mold.

You are a troll.


  #210 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > I agree with you 100%. I never said anything about absolute. Its the
> > people who are refuting me that claim "acid additions are absolutely
> > never done in Germany or France". Their absolutism is astonishing.
> >
> >
> >
> >

> Actually what you said was that must at 26 Brix always needs acid
> correction.


generally speaking, YES. (unless, of course, the juice is concentrated)

I never said always (dont think) but I have yet to comprehend how a
balanced, stable wine can be produced without additions.
Im begging you people to explain how this can be done but all i get is
insults from trolls like st. helier.




  #211 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:10:10 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>
>"Vino" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:59:30 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that

>acid
>> >needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my

>word
>> >for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done.

>PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
>> >TELL ME.
>> >

>
>When asking them did you include my full assumption oe just this snip?
>

I did not ask them specifically with respect to your statement. What I
posted was information gleaned from numerous conversations with both
groups of professionals that have taken place over a long period of
time before you ever started this thread.

If I had asked them for a specific reponse to the "snip" quoted above,
what more should I have asked them? In other words, what was your
"full assumption"?

>> I have asked chemists and experienced winemakers about this and their
>> unanimous answer is that it is an uwarranted generalization. This does
>> not preclude "acidity adjustments" from time to time

>

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #212 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

Vino,, I am not sure if you are aware but the second part of the quote is
not mine. You should direct the question to who made the comment. I have
no clue what you are to make of it.


"Vino" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:33:37 +1200, "st.helier"
> > wrote:
>
> >Vincent,
> >
> >In your very first post, you wrote thus..
> >
> >"anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
> >knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just
> >about (every) wine producing nation in the world"
> >
> >Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply

not
> >so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.

>
> I am reluctant to seemingly come in to defend someone whom I have been
> criticizing in earlier posts for unwarranted generalizations, and that
> is not my intent here. But your posting raises as many questions to me
> as it answers. I am by no means an expert on the regions you mention.
> I admit that freely and please consider my concerns in that light.
>
> My sense is that in Germany, Austria, New Zealand, and Tokaji,
> "acidity adjustments" are rarely, if ever, required. But can you state
> categorically that they never take place under any circumstances?
> You use the term "much of France", suggesting that "acidity
> adjustments" DO take place in certain places in certain years and
> under certain circumstances there.
>
> You have left out all of North America, Spain, Italy, and (with the
> sole exception of New Zealand) all of the Southern Hemisphere.
>
> What am I to make of this?
>
> Vino
> To reply, add "x" between
> letters and numbers of
> e-mail address.



  #213 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:24:06 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Vino,, I am not sure if you are aware but the second part of the quote is
>not mine. You should direct the question to who made the comment. I have
>no clue what you are to make of it.
>
>
>"Vino" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:33:37 +1200, "st.helier"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Vincent,
>> >
>> >In your very first post, you wrote thus..
>> >
>> >"anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking
>> >knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just
>> >about (every) wine producing nation in the world"
>> >
>> >Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply

>not
>> >so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.

>>
>> I am reluctant to seemingly come in to defend someone whom I have been
>> criticizing in earlier posts for unwarranted generalizations, and that
>> is not my intent here. But your posting raises as many questions to me
>> as it answers. I am by no means an expert on the regions you mention.
>> I admit that freely and please consider my concerns in that light.
>>
>> My sense is that in Germany, Austria, New Zealand, and Tokaji,
>> "acidity adjustments" are rarely, if ever, required. But can you state
>> categorically that they never take place under any circumstances?
>> You use the term "much of France", suggesting that "acidity
>> adjustments" DO take place in certain places in certain years and
>> under certain circumstances there.
>>
>> You have left out all of North America, Spain, Italy, and (with the
>> sole exception of New Zealand) all of the Southern Hemisphere.
>>
>> What am I to make of this?
>>
>> Vino
>> To reply, add "x" between
>> letters and numbers of
>> e-mail address.

>

My posting was a response to st. helier, who quoted one of your
earlier posts. Both that quote and his response to it were included in
my posting. I know it gets complicated, but my mail reader does a
pretty good job of sorting such things out.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #214 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
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Default Insanity of the wine industry

Try this: and thank you for your curiousity. Please let me know their
response.

Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
sugar will taste less acidic.
How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high
PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast
and bacteria to feast on.


"Vino" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:10:10 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Vino" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:59:30 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption

that
> >acid
> >> >needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my

> >word
> >> >for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done.

> >PLEASE!!!!!,,,,
> >> >TELL ME.
> >> >

> >
> >When asking them did you include my full assumption oe just this snip?
> >

> I did not ask them specifically with respect to your statement. What I
> posted was information gleaned from numerous conversations with both
> groups of professionals that have taken place over a long period of
> time before you ever started this thread.
>
> If I had asked them for a specific reponse to the "snip" quoted above,
> what more should I have asked them? In other words, what was your
> "full assumption"?
>
> >> I have asked chemists and experienced winemakers about this and their
> >> unanimous answer is that it is an uwarranted generalization. This does
> >> not preclude "acidity adjustments" from time to time

> >

> Vino
> To reply, add "x" between
> letters and numbers of
> e-mail address.



  #215 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Hideous Hog - OT

Salut/Hi Ewan McNay,

le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:00:47 -0400, tu disais/you said:-


>Tom S wrote:
>> ??? _Is_ there actually such a play? First I've heard of it.

>
>Well, yes - see e.g.
>http://www.bridgeguys.com/Squeeze/HexagonSqueeze.html - but the
>added value to your average bridge game is likely to be fairly
>modest from such knowledge .


Aha!! Another afithionado!

And you're perfectly right, of course. It's much MORE useful to be able to
do simple things like count to 13 four times.

>> various denizens of the local bridge club. Often the Hog sketches a hand
>> diagram on a napkin while draining someone else's glass of wine.


And finishing his foie gras for him - out of pure altruism, you understand.

>Sure; I enjoy David Bird's stuff in similar vein also.


I've not met this one.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #216 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:36:21 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Try this: and thank you for your curiousity. Please let me know their
>response.
>
>Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
>2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
>these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
>long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
>We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
>sugar will taste less acidic.
>How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
>acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high
>PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast
>and bacteria to feast on.
>

You're talking about Germany. I'm not, necessarily. I don't know where
to go with this conversation.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #217 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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Default Insanity of the wine industry

> Do you have releveant to the discussion to add or are you simply
> here to insult and troll me?


Finally, something has penetrated that skull of yours - my sole purpose of
being is to be your worst nightmare.

I take a great deal of delight in seeing a true troll squirm under the
weight of their own generalisations and innuendo.

As you try to deflect attention from many of the idiotic assumptions you
spout forth as gospel, you are in grave danger of disappearing up your own
fundamental orifice.


> > Because then you would have to admit that, in reality,
> > your experience is very limited, to a small area within the US;
> > where life is beautiful all the time, and the sun beats down,
> >and grapes ripen overnight and acid levels
> > diminish ......


> If you actually read anything I posted you would know
> that I dont work in Cali and I grow in a region that has
> plenty of mold.


Two points (before I also kill file you!!!)

Where in the above statement to I assert that you are in California?

Previously, you have stated that you are a winemaker - making millions of
gallons - Right?

Now, you are a grower!

Make up your mind - to make millions of gallons of wine, one must grow
thousands of tons of grapes - it is stretching credibility just too far for
one to believe that you do both, on the scale you claim.

Are you mistaken? Are you stretching the truth? Or are you simply a legend
in your own mind?

Now, it is Good Friday, it is a most pleasant autumn day and it is just on
lunchtime.

We are bar-b-quing some chicken breasts to serve with a simple garden fresh
salad.

Our wine choice today is magnum of Trimbach Cuvée Frederic-Emile Riesling
1990, which although not regarded as the perfect accompaniment for chicken,
is one of my favourite luncheon, salad wines.

Good bye Vincenza, have a great trolling life.

Alexander Andrew St.Helier-Bourke (Lord St.Helier)
Auckland, New Zealand



  #218 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Grant
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Hideous Hog - OT (was: Insanity of the wine industry)

"Tom S" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Salut/Hi Tom S,
> >
> > le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:58:06 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
> > >The problem is, you are both abrasive and condescending - not to

mention
> > >somewhat inaccurate.

> >
> > Somewhat? SOMEWHAT??? Tom, I've not known you as the master of the
> > understated murmur!

>
> My laugh for the day, Ian! :^D
>
> > >You'd be welcome here if you were simply _nicer_.

> >
> > Chuckle....
> >
> > > but if you step in with guns blazing you're going to get it back - in

> spades!
> >
> > No trumps.
> >
> > I think we've just about got him in a hexagon squeeze.

>
> ??? _Is_ there actually such a play? First I've heard of it.
>
> The OT part:
> I wonder how many here are acquainted with the exploits of the Hideous

Hog,
> from the late Victor Mollo's "Bridge in the Menagerie" series of stories?

I
> know that Ian and I are, as we've discussed this topic before. Food and
> wine are usually part of the scene during the postgame discussions, which
> describe in hilarious detail the gaffes and foibles at the card table of
> various denizens of the local bridge club. Often the Hog sketches a hand
> diagram on a napkin while draining someone else's glass of wine. It makes
> for great reading if you're into contract bridge.


The Hideous Hog is indeed an icon of the bridge literature. Author Mollo
occasionally uses wine as a dramatic prop in recounting HH's exploits (which
are usually psychological rather than technical).

I don't happen to share Tom's enthusiasm for Mollo's writing, but I'm in a
tiny minority.


  #219 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

I used Germany as an example because someone else (not sure who) was
referring to German wines. In colder climates, it takes much longer to get
grapes to 26 brix,, therefore they must hang on the vine while PH increases.


"Vino" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:36:21 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >Try this: and thank you for your curiousity. Please let me know their
> >response.
> >
> >Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar

of
> >2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
> >these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a

really
> >long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
> >We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with

residual
> >sugar will taste less acidic.
> >How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
> >acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high
> >PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast
> >and bacteria to feast on.
> >

> You're talking about Germany. I'm not, necessarily. I don't know where
> to go with this conversation.
>
> Vino
> To reply, add "x" between
> letters and numbers of
> e-mail address.



  #220 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry



> Two points (before I also kill file you!!!)


Please,, kill file me,, what are you waiting for.

>
> Where in the above statement to I assert that you are in California?


He
"Because then you would have to admit that, in reality, your experience is
very limited, to a small area within the US; where life is beautiful all the
time, and the sun beats down, and grapes ripen overnight and acid levels
diminish "

If you knew anything about the US wine regions you would know that your
description only applies to areas in California.
Obviously you dont know this.


>
> Previously, you have stated that you are a winemaker - making millions of
> gallons - Right?


No. I said I have made over a million gallons of wine.

>
> Now, you are a grower!


For about 20 years.

>
> Make up your mind - to make millions of gallons of wine, one must grow
> thousands of tons of grapes - it is stretching credibility just too far

for
> one to believe that you do both, on the scale you claim.


Do you read my posts with your rage and hateful feelings or with your mind.
I never said I make millions of gallons of wine per year. About 40% of our
fruit is estate grown.

>
> Are you mistaken? Are you stretching the truth? Or are you simply a legend
> in your own mind?



I dont give a rats ass if you believe me. I am still waiting for the kill
file.





  #221 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:12:45 +1200, tu disais/you said:-


>Our wine choice today is magnum of Trimbach Cuvée Frederic-Emile Riesling
>1990, which although not regarded as the perfect accompaniment for chicken,
>is one of my favourite luncheon, salad wines.


Aha!! 13% alcohol too, no doubt. So does it have added acidity, or is it
flabby?

S******.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #222 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:46:09 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>I used Germany as an example because someone else (not sure who) was
>referring to German wines. In colder climates, it takes much longer to get
>grapes to 26 brix,, therefore they must hang on the vine while PH increases.
>
>

You make broad generalizations and, when you are called on them, you
fall back on specifics. The above is a perfect example. This is why no
one takes you seriously here.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #223 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

>>Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
>>2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
>>these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
>>long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.


snip rest of Vincent's reply

>Earlier I said I was going to withdraw from this thread, but I simply
>couldn't let the above statements go unchallenged. The numbers quoted
>are fairly typical for a Columbia Valley (Washington State, USA)
>Johannisberg Riesling. Keep in mind that vineyards there are about 46
>degrees N, compared with about 50 in, say, the Mosel. Thus grapes
>ripen in the former with a much higher sugar level than in the latter.
>(I'm not claiming either is better than the other; just that they are
>different.) While I don't doubt that acid is sometimes added to such
>wines, I can state categorically that sometimes it is not. As far as
>firm figures as to how often it is done versus how often it is not, I
>have no clue and doubt that anyone else does either. But my point is
>that it is not ALWAYS necessary as has been claimed here.
>
>Vino


Vino

I must admit that I am probably one of the least knowledgeable about winemaking
here, but earlier, I was objecting to the insinuation that all wines would be
13% alcohol. The off-dry, sweet and dessert wines of Germany come in at 10%
alcohol and under. (I hope Vincent is aware of this.) The fermentation is
stopped early, and the wines have residual sugar and high acid. Someone could
clarify for me the typical brix (sweetness) of the must for the German
Kabinetts and Spatlesen.

Your point about Washington state and ripeness compared to Germany is well
taken. I believe that the WA off dry Rieslings (eg Ch. St. Michelle, Hogue)
have alcohol levels of 12 or more.

One minor observation I make about latitute however... New York's Finger Lakes
has higher acid wines than those of Washington, and it lies at 43 degrees, N
(south of Washington). The cool maritime climate promotes a higher acidity and
much less ripening than arid eastern WA.

But aside from that minor issue, your points are well taken.

So, a valid question is... What is the brix of a typical German off dry
Riesling? And what is the great destoyer of acid? Is it is high brix and high
alcohol, as Vincent suggests? Is it the rate of ripening (cool vs. warm
climate)?

If anyone, including Vincent, can answer my questions, I think some of these
issues re acidity may be clarified.

Thanks

Tom Schellberg

  #224 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On 09 Apr 2004 01:15:41 GMT, (Xyzsch) wrote:
>
>Your point about Washington state and ripeness compared to Germany is well
>taken. I believe that the WA off dry Rieslings (eg Ch. St. Michelle, Hogue)
>have alcohol levels of 12 or more.
>

More or less.

>One minor observation I make about latitute however... New York's Finger Lakes
>has higher acid wines than those of Washington, and it lies at 43 degrees, N
>(south of Washington). The cool maritime climate promotes a higher acidity and
>much less ripening than arid eastern WA.
>

I did not mean to suggest that latitude, isolated from everything
else, is destiny. For proof of this, look at Santa Barbara, where the
"cool climate" grape Pinot Noir is grown successfully. Santa Barbara
is about the same latitude as north Africa. In the case of Santa
Barbara, cool ocean currents and unusual topography trump latitude.
Although my heart is with Columbia Valley reisling, I must admit that
I have had some terrific reislings from the Finger Lakes area.

>So, a valid question is... What is the brix of a typical German off dry
>Riesling? And what is the great destoyer of acid? Is it is high brix and high
>alcohol, as Vincent suggests? Is it the rate of ripening (cool vs. warm
>climate)?
>

I'm going to defer to others on this one. German wines are classified
according to the sugar concentration of the grapes at harvest. This
corresponds only indirectly to the sugar content of the wines. This is
definitely not my area of expertise.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #225 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

> have cut and pasted previous posts from this thread. In answer to your
>question, NO,, in the US if a
>label contains "contains sulfites" you can be fairly certain that the winery

has added sulfites to the wine,, or wine to
>the sulfites.


>a very small residual of sulfites
>remain in wine due to the process of
>fermentation. (less than 10 parts per million). If a winery in France or
>in Cali tell you that they dont add sulphites, in 99.99% of the cases,, they
>would be lying to you.


>Unless a winery is going after the trendy, yup-yup organic crowed they would
>definatly add sulphites. Any winemaker who cares about the quality and the
>longevity of his wines will add sulphites.


Thanks for clarifying Vino. That seems to jibe with the statement about the
unstable Morgon (beaujolais).

Tom Schellberg



  #226 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

>Well,, regardless of if you are a novice or not. Your comment made much
>>sense. The other scenario regarding the acidity is that the German
>>Rieslings never reach 26 brix,, If

>we agreed on this than this debate could
>>be ended.


>German or Austrian Riesling TBA is MINIMUM 36 Brix. Needs no added
>acid.
>
>Mike


What's the minimum brix for German Kabinett or Spatlesen? Are they 26 brix?

Are high alcohol (13%) and high brix together the destroyers of acid? I
thought it was ripening that reduced acid levels? The German wines seem to
have high brix, but low alcohol.

Tom Schellberg
  #227 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry






>The cool maritime climate promotes a higher acidity and
> much less ripening than arid eastern WA.


Acidity is reduced as ripening increases. It is a fairly linear process.




>
> But aside from that minor issue, your points are well taken.
>
> So, a valid question is... What is the brix of a typical German off dry
> Riesling? And what is the great destoyer of acid? Is it is high brix and

high
> alcohol, as Vincent suggests?


I never suggested that high brix and high alcohol destroys acid. High brix
and high alcohol is a good representation of how long the grapes were left
to hang/how late the harvest was.

You said you dont know much about winemaking so I will explain the basics
incase you might be confused.
Yeast eat sugar --- the by-product is alcohol (among other things)
A dry wine is a wine fermented to 0 residual sugar (not sure if wine
drinkers have the same definition)
If a wine starts with about 22 brix and the yeast eat all of the sugar you
will end up with 12% alcohol. I hope everyone here is in agreement to
this
If an off dry wine has 2% residual sugar (and no sugar was added) and a 12%
alcohol it would have had to start at about 26 brix. A wine with 2%
residual and 10% alcohol probably started at about 24 brix. A wine at 14.5
% alcohol and no residual sugar would start at about 27 brix.


>



  #228 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


What are you talking about? One of us is miscomunicating and I am afraid I
dont see your point. my appoligies.



"Vino" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:46:09 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >I used Germany as an example because someone else (not sure who) was
> >referring to German wines. In colder climates, it takes much longer to

get
> >grapes to 26 brix,, therefore they must hang on the vine while PH

increases.
> >
> >

> You make broad generalizations and, when you are called on them, you
> fall back on specifics. The above is a perfect example. This is why no
> one takes you seriously here.
>
> Vino
> To reply, add "x" between
> letters and numbers of
> e-mail address.



  #229 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent Vega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry


"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> >Well,, regardless of if you are a novice or not. Your comment made much
> >>sense. The other scenario regarding the acidity is that the German
> >>Rieslings never reach 26 brix,, If

> >we agreed on this than this debate could
> >>be ended.

>
> >German or Austrian Riesling TBA is MINIMUM 36 Brix. Needs no added
> >acid.
> >
> >Mike

>
> What's the minimum brix for German Kabinett or Spatlesen? Are they 26

brix?
>


I have no clue.


  #230 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:

>
> What are you talking about? One of us is miscomunicating and I am
> afraid I dont see your point. my appoligies.
>
>
>
> "Vino" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:46:09 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I used Germany as an example because someone else (not sure who)
>> >was referring to German wines. In colder climates, it takes much
>> >longer to

> get
>> >grapes to 26 brix,, therefore they must hang on the vine while PH

> increases.
>> >


the following is from the 1989 German harvest
(http://www.germanwine.net/vintages/1989.htm) in relation to acid levels
you all tell me what it means with the brix
The 1989 Vintage in Germany
Overview:
"In good company": 1949 - 1959 - 1969 - 1979 - 1989 - An interesting
series of vintages that spanned the last half century. An attempt to put
numbers on or to compare 1989 might be a little premature but early
tastings suggest a superb Riesling vintage that will detract little from
the above company and will surely surpass both 1969 and 1979.


After a mild winter, the new year began with a warm spring. Warm and
sunny March had buds sprouting by 4/11 almost three weeks ahead of
normal. April was cool and with double the normal rainfall delayed
greening of the vineyards. After a hot May (50% above normal sunshine)
flowering went smoothly in mid-June. By 8/20 the grapes started the
ripening process. A hailstorm, in early September caused severe damage
not only in Kinheim and Ürzig on the Mosel but also in Kallstadt and
Ungstein in the Pfalz. September was cool and dry. The beginning of
October brought the long awaited rainfall which gave the vegetation a
big boost and greatly assisted botrytis formation. In the remaining warm
and sunny days of October the harvest finished smoothly. It should be
noted that the 1989 harvest was extremely labor intensive with a number
of estates exceeding 500 hrs/ha (60% to 70% above normal) harvesting
time. Not only did 1989 offer the best opportunity of the 80s to make
BAs and TBAs, the last weekend in November in addition produced numerous
Eisweins to top off the vintage.


1989 offers the broadest range of quality levels from QbA to TBA
including Eiswein which is rare for any vintage. By contrast in 1988 the
quality was pretty much centered around Spätlese and Auslese. The best
wines in 1989 were made on the Saar, Ruwer and all the Rhein regions
even though the middle Mosel can answer with some superb BAs and TBAs.
1989 for most areas, Graach and Wehlen on the Mosel excepted, is the
best vintage of the 80s. A review of the vintage by grower follows:

Estates by region
MOSEL-SAAR-RUWER

MÖNCHHOF
Harvest was about 20% above normal with acid levels ranging from 8gm/l
to 11gm/l. Quality breakdown is 25% QbA, 30% Kabinett, 40% Spätlese, 500
l of a superb Auslese (Erdener Treppchen) and 350 l BA Ürziger
Würzgarten - it may surpass the great 1976 BA - almost 150 Öchsle at
9.2gm/l acidity).


CHRISTOFFEL-BERRES
Yield was 100hl/ha in Erden and 75 hl/ha in Ürzig (there was some hail
damage). The finished wines still have 8.5gm/l of mostly tartaric acid.
Mr. Christoffel compares the vintage favorably to his 1975s. He likes
the Spätleses better than the 1988s but prefers the 1988 Ausleses.


J.J. PRÜM
Yield was 75hl/ha for an average harvest. Dr. Manfred Prüm rates the
vintage a 8.5 /10. Quality breakdown is 70% QbA and Kabinett, where most
of the QbAs are small declassified Kabinetts, 30% Spätlese with small
amounts of very high quality Auslese, GKA and LGKA. There is also a BA
and a TBA (only one in the 80s) in the Wehlener Sonnenuhr.


DR. F. WEINS-PRÜM
Harvest about 30% above normal. Wines with very good acid structure with
Spätleses at over 9gm/l acidity in finished wines. The Waldracher wines
are especially fine - better than even 88. First vintage in Graacher
Domprobst since the replanting brought a superb GKA (300 l, at 105
Öchsle and 8.4 gm/l acidity).


S.A. PRÜM
Yield was 88hl/ha or about 30% above normal. The Estate Riesling is
declassified Kabinett. At this early stage we prefer 89 over 88 at S.A.
Prüm which is not normally the case in Wehlen. Some very fine Ausleses,
GKA and BA (137 Öchsle - could have more acidity - wait and see). The
Graacher Kabinetts have superb acid structure.


Wwe. DR. H. THANISCH
At 90 hl/ha yield was a little higher than in '88. It was mostly a
Kabinett and Spätlese vintage with over 9gm/l acidity in the finished
wines. There were also some QbA, Ausleses and to top off the vintage a
BA and TBA both in the Bernkasteler Doctor. Thanisch continues on the
comeback trail and the '89 will only solidify its positions as one of
the better estates on the middle Mosel.


FRITZ HAAG
Yield was above average at 80 hl/ha. Wilhelm Haag rates the vintage 9/10
and compares the young wines to his 1975s and 1953s. High praise indeed.
I personally rate the vintage 9.5/10 and found the young wines
exceptionally balanced, explosive fruit on the palate with 9.5 to 9.8
gm/l acidity in the finished wines. Production was 20% QbA (declassified
Kabinett and Spätlese), 40% Kabinett, 25% Spätlese and 15% Auslese, GKA,
LGKA and the crowning achievement, a TBA at over 200 Öchsle.

MILZ - LAURENTIUSHOF
At 75hl/ha this was an average harvest for quantity but a near great
harvest for quality. Best wines of the 80s. There was good ripeness with
superb acid structure with approximately 15% Estate Riesling (mostly
declassified Kabinett), 15% Kabinett, 35% Spätlese and 32% Auslese. Rest
is 600 liter BA (Leiterchen at 140 Öchsle with 10.5gm/l acidity), 250 l
TBA (Apotheke at 178 Öchsle) and 400 l BA quality Eiswein at 140 Öchsle
with 14 gm/l acidity.


KARTHÄUSERHOF
Possibly the finest vintage since 1959. Not only did the wines get very
ripe but there are terrific acids to go with the fruit. Yield was
significantly above normal. There was a broad spectrum of quality levels
from QbA, Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, including GKA, to 600 l BA (128
Öchsle) and 150 l TBA (180 + Öchsle) and Eiswein.


PIEDMONT
With 110 hl/ha the yield was over 50% above normal with superb acid
structure in the must, almost 90% tartaric. Klaus Piedmont who is now in
charge, after this father passed away in '89, considers '89 to be the
best vintage since 1976. Extremely labor intensive harvest. Spent 510
hours/ha versus a normal harvest time of 320 hrs/ha. Quality breakdown
is 15% QbA (again declassified Kabinett), 35% Kabinett, 35% Spätlese,
the rest Auslese (with two Fuders at 110 Öchsle) and BA (600 l that also
includes the only TBA harvested in the 80s).


von HÖVEL
Yield was 76 hl/ha which is slightly above normal. Eberhard von Kunow
rates the vintage slightly above '75 (with more botrytis) but not as
good as '71. Very good acid structure; up to 80% tartaric acid. Quality
breakdown is 0% QbA, 30% Kabinett, 60% Spätlese and 10% Auslese, BA
(Hütte at 135 Öchsle) and Eiswein (Hütte).


EGON MÜLLER-SCHARZHOF / LE GALLAIS
70 hl/ha yield with 100% predicate wines. Small quantities of Kabinett
may be declassified for Estate Riesling, 30% Kabinett, 60% Spätlese and
10% Auslese and up. There are BAs and TBAs at both Scharzhof and Le
Gallais and Eisweins at the Scharzhof only. Again superb acids with up
to 80% tartaric. By far the best vintage of the 80s. similar to 1971 and
1975.


DR. FISCHER
110 hl/ha or almost 40% above normal. At the beginning of the harvest
the must acids were 12 to 13 gm/l and towards the end were still 10
gm/l. Mr. Fischer likens the vintage to his 1975s. Quality breakdown is
20% QbA, 30% Kabinett and 49% Spätlese. There are two Fuders of GKA, 800
liters BA with 9.5 gm/l acidity and 1000 l Eiswein (126 to 176 Öchsle at
18 gm/l acidity).


ZILLIKEN
Even with a way above average yield, 100 hl/ha, the quality will be very
good. The dry period in the summer caused significant dry damage and the
harvest was very labor intensive. There is only 8% QbA with the rest
predicate wines. There are some superb Ausleses including a LGKA (BA
quality) and two Eisweins - lethal weapons '89. Hanno Zilliken compares
the vintage to 1975.


SCHLOSS SAARSTEIN
Yield was 90 hl/ha with quality like 1971. With the '89 vintage
Christian Ebert is starting a program were half the vintage is offered
as Estate Riesling which in '89 will all be declassified Kabinett. There
are also 30 Fuders of Kabinett, 3 Fuders Spätlese plus Auslese, GKA and
LGKA. 300 l BA (135 Öchsle), 150 l TBA (170 to 190 Öchsle at 12 gm/l
acidity) and 150 l Eiswein (170 to 190 Öchsle at 18 gm/l acidity).


BERT SIMON
Bert Simon calls '89 the best vintage since he's acquired the von
Schorlemer properties in '68. Yield was only 76 hl/ha because Simon only
tied one bow on the vine instead of the usual two. This was exactly the
right thing to do in '89. The wines break down to 28% Kabinett, 30%
Spätlese, 40% Auslese and 2% BA and TBA! Not only do the wines have very
ripe, botrytised fruit but also terrific acids for this ripeness. A
vintage of the century for this estate!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

RHEINGAU

LANGWERTH VON SIMMERN
At 95 hl/ha the harvest was 20% above normal. Best vintage of the
eighties. Over 80% predicate wines with 25% Spätleses and 3% Auseses,
BAs and TBAs. Ausleses were produced in the Eltviller Sonnenberg,
Hattenheimer Mannberg and Nussbrunnen. BAs in the Eltviller Sonnenberg,
Rauenthaler Baiken, Hattenheimer Mannberg and Nussbrunnen and TBA's in
the Hattenheimer Mannberg and Nussbrunnen and the Erbacher Marcobrunn
(190 Öchsle and 16.5 gm./l acidity).


GEORG BREUER
Best vintage since 1971. The harvest was very labor intensive. It began
9/14 and was complete 10/22. Yield was 64 hl/ha. All wine below 78
Öchsle will be offered as QbA. All wines through Spätlese will be
offered in the dry style only. The Ausleses, BA (Bischofsberg at 133
Öchsle and 8.8 gm/l acidity) and TBA (Berg Rottland at 183 Öchsle and 11
gm/l) will be offered in the fruity style.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

PFALZ

PFEFFINGEN
Because of severe hail damage yield was barely half of normal. Only
predicate wines were made. because of a dire need for Kabinett wines the
harvest was started early and nothing higher than Auslese was picked.
The acid structure in these wines is superb. For example, finished
Kabinetts have 9.5 gm/l acidity. Please reserve your Kabinetts early for
they will surely be sold out before year end 1990.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

FRANKEN

WIRSCHING
Yield was 20% above normal with very ripe fruit and good acid structure
(lots of tartaric acid). Riesling from 84 to 87 Öchsle in the Julius
Echter Berg and Kronsberg will all be offered as Kabinett wines. For the
Riesling variety 1988 was the better vintage. Silvaner will be 85% QbA
and 15% Kabinett. Scheurebe brought QbA, Kabinett and

Spätlese. Traminer was harvested as an Auslese only at 108 Öchsle. Pinot
Gris started at Auslese; there was also a BA and TBA (176 Öchsle at over
9 gm/l acidity). Müller -Thurgau: QbA and Kabinett only.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

NAHE

CRUSIUS
Yield was 10% above normal, with mustweights ranging from 74 to 114
Öchsle. Peter and his father did not attempt to make BA's or TBA's. It
simply is not their style. They prefer good Ausleses to the really sweet
wines. All must below 79 Öchsle was chaptalized to 90-92 and becomes
QbA. Botrytis is very noticeable in the Ausleses but also in some
Spätleses. Must acids ranged from 8 gm/l to 1.3gm/l. The harvest was
complete on 10/27/89. Best vintage of the '80s decade.

SCHLOSSGUT DIEL
Even with 20% above normal yield the 1989 wines will be superb. Quality
breakdown is 17% QbA (Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc), 25% Kabinett, 25%
Spätlese and 33% Auslese. Harvest from 9/25 to 10/13. Rieslings have
acid levels of 10 gm/l, even the Pinot Gris (the finest I've ever tasted
at Diel) has 9.2 gm/l acidity. The acids are very ripe i.e. lots of
tartaric acid. In 1989, Schlossgut Diel will offer a fruity style wine,
an Auslese from the Dorsheimer Goldloch (108 Öchsle, 10.8 gm/l acidity
and 88 gm/l residual sugar).


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

BADEN

SALWEY
Yield was 10% above normal. One of the best vintages of the eighties.
Riesling - 2/3 Kabinett and 1/3 Spätlese. Pinot Gris from Kabinett to
TBA (160 + Öchsle at 9.5 gm/l acidity). Muskateller Spätlese, will
probably sell as Kabinett. Silvaner, Pinot Blanc and Gewürztraminer:
Kabinett and Spätlese, Müller-Thurgau: Kabinett and Spätlese but will
sell as Kabinett only. Spätburgunder (Pinot Noir) from QbA to Spätlese
and the Pinot Noir Blanc to Auslese. Harvest was complete 10/23/89.


DR. HEGER
Yield was 70 hl/ha or about 30% above normal. Joachim judges the vintage
a 9.5/10. He compares the whites to the 1975s and the red wines possibly
the best ever!! Silvaner mostly Kabinett but 10% Spätlese from a plot of
over 40 year old vines. Scheurebe: 1000 l Auslese, 1000 l BA (145
Öchsle) and 280 l TBA (200 + Öchsle at 16.6 gm/l acidity fabulous wine)!
Traminer: 1000 l Auslese (119 Öchsle), Gewürztraminer: 520 l BA (140
Öchsle) Müller-Thurgau all Kabinett. Riesling: 600 l of fabulous
Spätlese from the Winklerberg. Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc Kabinett and
Spätlese. Exceptional Muskateller, Spätlese only. Pinot Noir and Pinot
Noir Blanc great!



------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

WÜRTTEMBURG

GRAF ADELMANN
Yield was 15% above normal, very good acid structure and high pH with
the red wines. Harvest began 9/20 and was complete by the last week in
October. Riesling yield was 60 hl/ha and brought 1/3 Kabinett (85
Öchsle), 1/3 Spätlese (91 Öchsle) and 1/3 Auslese (102 Öchsle). Traminer
came in at 90 Öchsle with 70 hl /ha. Could be offered as Kabinett or
Spätlese. Muskateller - only 30 hl/ha at 1/2 Kabinett and 1/2 Spätlese.
Kerner - only Spätlese at 95 Öchsle. Lemberger - only Spätlese. Samtrot
only Spätlese at 90+ Öchsle. Clevner QbA through Auslese at 100+ Öchsle.
Trollinger QbA only. One of the best vintages in the last 15 years.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

RHEINHESSEN

GUNDERLOCH
Because of the unusually smaller tban normal yields the 1989 harvest at
64 hl/ha was almost 40% above normal. Breakdown of quality levels is
27.2% QbA, 17.5% Kabinett, 41.6% Spätlese and 13.7% Auslese with 150 l
TBA at 160+ Öchsle - first Clever Riesling TBA produced at Gunderloch.
Acid levels for Riesling from 8.9 to 10.3 gm/l, for Silvaner 7.7 to 8.8
gm/l and Müller-Thurgau 7.5 to 9.0 gm/l. Best vintage of the '80s.



  #231 (permalink)   Report Post  
RV WRLee
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

<big snip>
>Our wine choice today is magnum of Trimbach Cuvée Frederic-Emile Riesling
>1990, which although not regarded as the perfect accompaniment for chicken,
>is one of my favourite luncheon, salad wines.


Now you're talking Lord St. Helier! Trimbach is one of my personal favorites.
Both the Cuvee Frederic Emile Riesling and the Clos St. Hune. A near perfect
expression of Alsace fruit with terrific aging potential (must be the sulfites)
and a wonderful zippy acidity (do they add acid?) that marrys so well with so
many different cuisines. I will toast you good taste at our Good Friday meal
by opening a bottle of 1985 Trimbach Clos St. Hune with a simple roasted Chevre
salad!

Bi!!
  #232 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:36:21 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Try this: and thank you for your curiousity. Please let me know their
>response.
>
>Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
>2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
>these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
>long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
>We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
>sugar will taste less acidic.




Someone asked about German Kabinett, for Riesling you need at least
18-19 depending on region.

To get 13+2 potential alcohol, you need 23 Brix. That would be a
Kabinett. No particularly long hanging.

At 25-26 brix you are already at the Auslese level. I have never
tasted an Auslese that lacked acidity. And acidification is not
allowed on QmP. I don't believe they need to acidify, if anything,
they might want to deacidify...



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #233 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

jcoulter > wrote in
:

> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> What are you talking about? One of us is miscomunicating and I am
>> afraid I dont see your point. my appoligies.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vino" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:46:09 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >I used Germany as an example because someone else (not sure who)
>>> >was referring to German wines. In colder climates, it takes much
>>> >longer to

>> get
>>> >grapes to 26 brix,, therefore they must hang on the vine while PH

>> increases.
>>>



see also the report on 1997 wines which contains this
After visiting a few estates it became apparent that the streak was
intact, 1997 is a fabulous vintage. The only real contrast between 1997
and other recent vintages is that very few noble sweet wines were made
because the vintage had little botrytis. However, at the Estate Riesling
(QbA), Kabinett, Spätlese, and Auslese level we’ve never tasted anything
quite like 1997. The wines are incredibly ripe, with detailed fine
fruit, and with layers and layers on the palate.

Even at this early stage, tasting the wines off the tanks / barrels,
they were showing complexity and character. There is no clouding of
flavors by botrytis or hard acidity, just pure, ripe, often tropical
fruit.

Although total acidity is lower than in previous vintages, the key to
the ‘97’s is the high levels of tartaric acidity. There is only a small
amount of malic in these wines. Analysis of acid levels at Weingut
Robert Weil showed over 90% tartaric acidity in the musts, yet Weil’s
1997 Kiedricher Gräfenberg Spätlese still has 10 gm/l acidity. This over
abundance of tartaric acid explains the incredible ripeness we found in
so many of the wines. While some estates did have acid levels at 10+
gm/l, the average acidity (for our estates) seems to lie in the 8.5 gm/l
range.

Hanno Zilliken is the exception to the no botrytis rule in 1997. His was
the only estate with significant amounts of botrytis. The wines are
magnificent. It is one of the greatest vintages ever for this estate.
Kudos to Hanno Zilliken for some of the finest wines produced in 1997.



indicating as noted that acid levels tend to be fairly high in German
grapes when compared to residual sugar
  #234 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Mark Lipton" in ...
> Dale Williams wrote:
> > In article >,


> > (Bill Spohn) writes:
> >
> >>As we are talking about wine stories, I find Roald Dahl a wry writer,

and his
> >>"A Matter of Taste" is (IMHO anyway) a minor masterpiece - do you know

it?
> >
> > I'm not Max, but I love that story. I think of it every time at a blind

tasting
> > I find myself trying to catch a glimpse of the cork, or looking where

the cover
> > is loose

>
> For my part, I think of Dorothy Sayers' "The Bibulous Business of a
> Matter of Taste," another very amusing short story.
>


I recently arrived on this computer, a little tired, and what follows below
is from memory. (You've only mere integrity on that.)

Is Dahl's "Matter of Taste" the story where the phony drawing-room expert,
under an important wager he has contrived,"discerns" the Bordeaux (very
slowly and Hitchcockianly with a river and a bridge etc.) from what turns
out ultimately to be a good look at the b*ttle (don't want to spoil it for
anyone)? If not then I don't know it. (Though the one I do remember is not
without parallels in the contemporary US, if i may say). (Other and wiser
lands, of course, lack such defects. :-)

Did you read Dahl's interview in (I think it's called) Bin Ends at the end
of _Decanter,_ about 1990? Very articulate on the changes in the UK
consumer wine market since the 1950s. I have it readily on file (on paper)
and could quote.

I don't recognize the Sayers story by title, though I do appreciate Sayers
much and read most of her stories with much pleasure, she was surely the
most scholarly of the entre-deux-guerres British detective fiction writers
and thy mention hath earned thee less yet, less even yet, than Pavlov's dogs
got: A quotation!


--
Knowing that in country places it is always considered proper to see the
church, Lord Peter expressed his eagerness to do so. "It's always open
nowadays," said the magistrate, leading the way to the west entrance. ... He
pushed the door open. A curious, stuffy waft of stale incense, damp, and
stoves rushed out at them as they entered -- a kind of concentrated extract
of Church of England.

-- Dorothy Sayers, "The undignified melodrama of the bone of contention," in
_Lord Peter,_ Harper & Row, 1987 (ISBN 0060913800). Not from online.

("Arf!")


  #235 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trimbach

Hi Bill,

I am definitely a fan of Trimbach wines in general, but specifically, the
Riesling CF-E and the Gewurz. "Cuvée des Seigneurs de Ribeaupierre" which
are standouts in this isolated spot - where any Alsatian wine of any sort is
a rarity.

Schlumberger and Hugel make it down in small quantities, but I have never
seen any Zind Humbrecht wines in NZ.

I have never tried the Clos Sainte Hune - I have never seen it available
downunder - so enjoy a glass for me with your salad.

--

st.helier




  #236 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cggeorgecox
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

I typed in www.vegaindustries.com and the web site was in french. I've been
reading this thread for some time and was wandering where Mr. Vega worked.

I know very little about the process of wine making apart from the basics, so I
guess if I knew the winery where he works it would add to his credability
(sp?).

Just curious,

George Cox
  #237 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> Lieber Herr Pronay - das ist wohl disgusting?


Ist es, ist es nicht?

M.
  #239 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Michael Pronay" in ...
>
> >> -M. Pronay is a Sommelier in Vienna, Austria.

>
> > Correction: He is the foremost wine critic of Austria

>
> No, I'm not. (But maybe I'm the only one with a little knowledge
> of a few foreign languages.)
>


Aber gewiss! (Bitte verzeihen Sie uns unsere Schwäche. Nichts über unsere
Grammatik zu sagen. Sie haben rechts. )

By chance, last night I condensed all of Vienna / Wien / Vienne / Viena into
three casual paragraphs on a US food Web site in New Orleans, Louisiana. It
is improbable that anyone here would want to read it, so I should not cite
the URL. But just in case, the general site is (look for "French Paradox"
thread):

www.foodfest.neworleans.com/talk_food.html

(PS: Just in case anyone here has missed the European food-wine magazines
for the last decade, Hr. Prónay is being extremely modest, he is
demonstrably one of the principal food-wine journalists of central Europe,
and very gracious in person as well.)


  #240 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nils Gustaf Lindgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default Insanity of the wine industry

"Cherie" > skrev i meddelandet
...
>
> "dick" > wrote in message
> news
> > Thanks for the post. I thought it was the little Troll dolls with long

> hair
> > that my sister played with years ago.
> >
> > Now I have the facts!!!! :-)
> >
> >
> > "Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Cherie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, I have a question regarding the use of the "Troll" term.

I'm
> > not an
> > > > idiot, I certainly get the gist of it, but can you explain to me its

> > exact
> > > > usage in the NG?
> > >
> > > Bonjour, Cherie!
> > > "Troll" is a time-honored USEnet term, referring to someone who
> > > purposefully attempts to "stir the pot" in a newsgroup with

inflammatory
> > > and/or insulting posts. Many other newsgroups have quite regular
> > > trolling, though this one thankfully has been reasonably troll-free.
> > > In truth, the term "troll" is a neologism, derived from the action of
> > > "trolling" for a reponse -- an activity that dates back to the dawn of
> > > the Internet.
> > >
> > > HTH
> > > Mark Lipton

> >
> >

> I always picture a little evil thing living under the bridge in, is it,
> Billy Goat's Gruff???


Hello;

Yes, you remember correctly. It´s about the three billygoats, brothers I
think, who pass the bridge under which the evil troll lives. The billygoats
refer, one after the other to the next billy goat, and the last, which is
the largest, knocks the troll into the ... ford, or whatever caused the
construction of the bridge.
Hence the exhortation to "crawl back udner the bridge, you troll" in certain
newsgroup.
However, in some net cultures, a distinction is made between the troll, and
the kook. The troll typicaly does not answer any posts re his/hers messages.
The kook keeps on defending his/hers opinions and prejudices.
Persons who have answered the troll may get the greeting
YHBT YHL HAND
which translates into "you have been trolled - you have lost - have a nice
day"
from somebody more knowledgable, or more cynical, I dunno ...
We did have a kook here who presented as a woman, wanted to make wine of
very disgusting things ... the thing with newsgroups is that, by and large,
gender is optional ... in some newsgroups, you get the impression some of
the partiocipants are really cyborgs ...
not here though

HTH

Cheers

nils gustaf


--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se


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