Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:48:59 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> I hear a lot of winemakers who dont like to admit (for unknown reasons) that they add SO2
>> directly to their wine so they claim that residual SO2 gets into their
>> wine by using it as a sterilizer.

This is ludicrous. SO2 is SO2 whether added to sterilise the barrel or
preserve the wine. I simply don't believe that serious wine makers seek to
hide the fact that they're adding SO2. I challenge you, Vincent give TWO
names of serious winemakers who deny adding SO2. If you won't or can't, you
join the other ******s in my kill file.

>The French call this "mechage", I believe. A sulfur wick is burned in a
>barrel.

Yup, but it has several drawbacks. 1. sometimes flaming molten sulphur can
drop down to the bottom of the barrel, and the flame may just go out before
all the sulphur has burnt. You then have a risk that all those lovely
sulphides that Bill Loftin was talking about could form and sopil the wine.

2. It's an unpleasant and messy job.

3. It's impossible to dose very accurately, as you say.

> Adding a measured amount of K2S2O5 is much more accurate and accomplishes the same thing.

And with the acidity always present in the wine the metabisulphite converts
to sulphite ions very efficiently and both sterilises the barrel and helps
protect the wine against unwanted oxidation.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:20:55 GMT, "Tom S" > said:

[]
] Jeez, where's that nice Mr. Stonefeel been lately? ;^)
]
[]

LOL. And that's the first time in this whole godforsaken, troll-ridden thread!

Can't we just end this now? This _is_ one of the most civilized corners of
usenet, perhaps we can just keep it that way by killfiling this loser?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

>Wouldn't it be a solicitor, or barrister, or Writer to the Signet, with a
>sense of humor, in that sovereign land, rather than mere "lawyer"? ;-)

Well down to the South of us, the ex-colonial neighbours call them lawyers, or
more often attorneys.

We are technically barristers and solicitors and use those terms in Canada,
although we do not have a traditionally divided bar, and can all appear in
court (unlike Rumpole, although the division has been lessened recently even in
Britain).

You may refer to me as B, S &T (barrister, solicitor and trencherman).

> Remember today both parties are simply oposition parties. What ever one
> party is for the other opposes.

? Who told you that? The democrats are clearly against any policy of the
republicans. Today,, what is good for the country and good for the Bush
administration is considered bad to the democrats. But it isnt a two way
street. Clinton proposed welfare reform and got overwhelming support from
the Republicans,, He proposed a balance budget amendment which was supported
mosty by republicans. Liberals are simply anti-republican. Conservatives
have very solid principles.

I replied to Ian in private also, but this has wider potential.
I wonder if the recently-much-lauded Dr. Lipton could possibly
convince the dept. that he knows enough about, say, the role of
drug design to make him interesting as an invited speaker; and we
clearly also need the input of a Canadian Lawyer on getting such
drugs optimally reimported to the US. I can see my application
to NIH for the requisite funds now [Budget: no honoraria, but
$20,000 for meals]. Dale is close enough to need no further
enticement, I suspect, but I'll have to work on reasons for the
attendance of Mssrs. Tommassi, Pronay, and so on...

Ian Hoare wrote:
>>Ah, this is all too much. How about you all come visit
>>Connecticut, as long as you bring the respective delicacies and
>>bottles along?
>
> I'd be delighted to. What part of CT are you in? Jacquie & I shall probably
> be in the Berkshires, which aren't too far from CT, looking at fall colours
> in mid October.
>

> So with your experience what are your opinions on say the cork vs stelvin
> arguments. Do you favor one or the other? Can wines in Stelvin closures
age
> gracefully? or is the whole cork thing more a case of poor winemaking?

Thats a hard question to answer considering the fact that there isnt much
history to go by. (I dont know too many quality wines with screwcaps that
have been aged for 10 or 15 years) Synthetics and screwcaps accomplish the
same thing, - a perfect seal. Cork sometimes provide a perfect seal and
sometimes allow mild oxidation and more than often introduce unwanted
micro-organisms. An argument can be made that corks allow oxygen to pass
through them into the wine creating a positive mild oxydation. I see no
evidence of this. If a winemaker wants mild oxidation than it should be
done in the barrel. A wine doesnt need additional oxygen to develop and to
age in the bottle.

Considering the fact that cork is becomming more expensive, quality is going
down and wine consuption is going up,, you are sure to see the industry move
towards synthetics. I still use cork. The only reason I do is because of
botteling issues,, not because I think the quality of wine will be effected.

Again,, tell me who I insulted and I will appoligize. Calling me names and
making fun of me is just childish.



"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Nicer? About a dozen people insulted me and claimed I was an idiot
> without
> > even thinking about what I said. If someone thinks I'm not nice they
> should
> > tell me why they think that,, dont just insult me.
>
> You only started receiving flames in return because you came from your
> corner first swinging at _everyone_. Don't try to play innocent now.
It's
> too late for that.
>
> Jeez, where's that nice Mr. Stonefeel been lately? ;^)
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Vincent Vega,
>
> le/on Wed, 07 Apr 2004 13:10:34 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >
> >"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> You generalised
>
> >> >The trend today is to overwrippen grapes inorder to get big complex
high alcohol
> >> >wines.
>
> Where? Not in France, certainly. That's the sort of wild, unfounded
> generalisation that is getting you a trollish reputation.

It is certainly the trend in California. Please stop calling me names.

>
> >> >was harvested at about 24-26 brix. A grape at this high of a sugar
> >> >content would taste flat from lack of acidity and PH would make the
wine
> >> > unstable.
>
> This sentence starts with factual inaccuracy and ends by not making sense.
> Not all grapes harvested at this sugar content taste flat, as Xysch
pointed
> out. Then you say that something would make the wine unstable? The flat
> taste? The low acidity? Furthermore, what exactly do you mean by "lack of
> acidity and pH?" A low pH is a sign of high acidity and vice versa.

are you going to tell me what is innacurate and doesnt make sense or are you
just going to generalize?
Show me a must at 26 brix that doesnt need an acid addition and I might
believe you. I have never seen one and I have years of experience in the
US. I admit I have no first hand knowledge of French must but biology works
the same in Europe as it does here. Claiming that I am wrong may sound good
to the regulars here but it isnt very convincing to me. Tell me you are a
French wine maker with years of experience with high brix must and I will
retact my statement and stand corrected. Tell me you read in a book that
high acid must dont require acid additions and I will call you mislead.

Second part of your comment:
As sugar rises, TA decreases and PH rises. TA and PH are not always linear
but are close enough to generalize. When a grape gets to 26 brix,, the PH
will most likely be well above 3.6,, thus making an unstable wine. If no
sulfites are added,, this wine will oxidize in a relatively short period of
time.
Im not sure what you are disputing.


>
> >> Got to love those 13% alcohol German Rieslings.. especially those
fermented
> >> off-dry. Be sure to add lots of acid to balance the sweetness.
>
> >> You may detect a bit of sarcasm in this statement.
>
> >Why the sarcasim?
>
> Because you're generalising wildly. And because in your generalising,
you're
> actually talking nonsense.
>
> They don't add acidity to sweet wines from the Loire, they don't do it in
> Alsace, they don't do it in Germany, I don't believe for a moment that
they
> do it in Austria, though Michael P can confirm this, and they _certainly_
> don't need to do it in Tokaj. So kindly tell me what part of the world do
> your examples come from?

Please tell me how you know this? Does everyone here take your word as
fact or do you have hands on experience in these matters?
Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
sugar will taste less acidic.
How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high
PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast
and bacteria to feast on.

I dont think it is possible. But that is just my first hand experience.
Please,, explain to me how this can be done if you know what you are talking
about. I really want you to address the stability issue.




>
> >Sarcasm doesn't help to inform or win a debate. It is simply a sign of
> >frustration and incompetence.
>
> No. It shows that the person using it has lost patience with the way you
> skip from one subject to another, you refuse to justify ANYthing you've
> said, you ignore points made to refute you and you generally behave like a
> spoilt lout.

sorry,, its u people who are jumping.

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:

>
gen to develop and to age in the
> bottle.
>
> Considering the fact that cork is becomming more expensive, quality is
> going down and wine consuption is going up,, you are sure to see the
> industry move towards synthetics. I still use cork. The only reason
> I do is because of botteling issues,, not because I think the quality
> of wine will be effected.
>
>

Thank you.

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:58:06 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> wine with me anymore, causing me to get bored and leave this group for
>good, in its bliss of likemindedness.

In other words "everyone's out of step except our Johnny."

>The problem is, you are both abrasive and condescending - not to mention
>somewhat inaccurate.

Somewhat? SOMEWHAT??? Tom, I've not known you as the master of the
understated murmur!

>You'd be welcome here if you were simply _nicer_.

Chuckle....

> but if you step in with guns blazing you're >going to get it back - in spades!

No trumps.

I think we've just about got him in a hexagon squeeze.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:20:55 GMT, "Tom S" > said:
>
> []
> ] Jeez, where's that nice Mr. Stonefeel been lately? ;^)
> ]
> []
>
> LOL. And that's the first time in this whole godforsaken, troll-ridden
thread!
>
> Can't we just end this now? This _is_ one of the most civilized corners
of
> usenet, perhaps we can just keep it that way by killfiling this loser?
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to
> by removing the well known companies

Expanding upon the definitions provided to me by Mark and Ian, it seems to
me that the ultimate goal of a true Troll is to be the center of attention.
If Mr. Vega is a Troll, he certainly is a successful one!
Just a thought...
-Cherie

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
news
> Salut/Hi Tom S,
>
> le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:48:59 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >> I hear a lot of winemakers who dont like to admit (for unknown reasons)
that they add SO2
> >> directly to their wine so they claim that residual SO2 gets into their
> >> wine by using it as a sterilizer.
>
> This is ludicrous. SO2 is SO2 whether added to sterilise the barrel or
> preserve the wine. I simply don't believe that serious wine makers seek to
> hide the fact that they're adding SO2. I challenge you, Vincent give TWO
> names of serious winemakers who deny adding SO2. If you won't or can't,
you
> join the other ******s in my kill file.

Ian,, Obviously you havent read anything I posted. I have never met a
winemaker that claims they dont add sulfite. The people in the forum who
are attacking me claim that France and other parts of the world dont add
sulfite. You should address your question to them.

I have met with dozens of people who have visited the French wineries and
all of them have told me that the French claim not to add sulfites.

In response to your challenge,, you are too late. I already challenged
this newsgroup to contact French wineries (as an American) and ask them
about sulfites. This was about the time I started to be called a troll.

If people here cant answer your question than you are going to have alot of
people to put in your /kill file.



>
> >The French call this "mechage", I believe. A sulfur wick is burned in a
> >barrel.
>
> Yup, but it has several drawbacks. 1. sometimes flaming molten sulphur can
> drop down to the bottom of the barrel, and the flame may just go out
before
> all the sulphur has burnt. You then have a risk that all those lovely
> sulphides that Bill Loftin was talking about could form and sopil the
wine.
>
> 2. It's an unpleasant and messy job.
>
> 3. It's impossible to dose very accurately, as you say.
>
> > Adding a measured amount of K2S2O5 is much more accurate and
accomplishes the same thing.
>
> And with the acidity always present in the wine the metabisulphite
converts
> to sulphite ions very efficiently and both sterilises the barrel and helps
> protect the wine against unwanted oxidation.
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:


>
> Ian,, Obviously you havent read anything I posted. I have never met
> a winemaker that claims they dont add sulfite. The people in the
> forum who are attacking me claim that France and other parts of the
> world dont add sulfite. You should address your question to them.
>
> I have met with dozens of people who have visited the French wineries
> and all of them have told me that the French claim not to add
> sulfites.

It has been my experience with this and other threads that there is no
disagreement at all on the use of SO2. the disagreements are with the
univeral statements about acid addition. You seem to come from a place
where sugar levels are normally high so sugar addition soens't seem to be
an issue.

For what it is worth it is a matter of tone not disagreement that has
rasied the collective ire of the group.

J Coulter

"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> :
>
>
> >
> > Ian,, Obviously you havent read anything I posted. I have never met
> > a winemaker that claims they dont add sulfite. The people in the
> > forum who are attacking me claim that France and other parts of the
> > world dont add sulfite. You should address your question to them.
> >
> > I have met with dozens of people who have visited the French wineries
> > and all of them have told me that the French claim not to add
> > sulfites.
>
> It has been my experience with this and other threads that there is no
> disagreement at all on the use of SO2.

good

the disagreements are with the
> univeral statements about acid addition. You seem to come from a place
> where sugar levels are normally high so sugar addition soens't seem to be
> an issue.
>
> For what it is worth it is a matter of tone not disagreement that has
> rasied the collective ire of the group.
>
> J Coulter

So are you claiming that German rieslings have sugar added to them? I didnt
dare want to make such an accusation for fear of being called troll once
again.
You are starting to impress me j coulter. Lets see where you go with this.

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:



>
> So are you claiming that German rieslings have sugar added to them? I
> didnt dare want to make such an accusation for fear of being called
> troll once again.
> You are starting to impress me j coulter. Lets see where you go with
> this.
>
>
>

I amke no claim about sugar at all other than that your posts indicate that
you are used to naturally occuring high brix levels.

what did you mean by

"so sugar addition soens't seem to be
an issue"

I am not sure if you read my reply to Ian's post,, It is below. If I am
wrong about acid additions than someone should be able to answer my
concerns. So far,, no one has been able to do so.

are you going to tell me what is innacurate and doesnt make sense or are you
just going to generalize?
Show me a must at 26 brix that doesnt need an acid addition and I might
believe you. I have never seen one and I have years of experience in the
US. I admit I have no first hand knowledge of French must but biology works
the same in Europe as it does here. Claiming that I am wrong may sound good
to the regulars here but it isnt very convincing to me. Tell me you are a
French wine maker with years of experience with high brix must and I will
retact my statement and stand corrected. Tell me you read in a book that
high acid must dont require acid additions and I will call you mislead.

Second part of your comment:
As sugar rises, TA decreases and PH rises. TA and PH are not always linear
but are close enough to generalize. When a grape gets to 26 brix,, the PH
will most likely be well above 3.6,, thus making an unstable wine. If no
sulfites are added,, this wine will oxidize in a relatively short period of
time.
Im not sure what you are disputing.



"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
...
>
> "jcoulter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Ian,, Obviously you havent read anything I posted. I have never met
> > > a winemaker that claims they dont add sulfite. The people in the
> > > forum who are attacking me claim that France and other parts of the
> > > world dont add sulfite. You should address your question to them.
> > >
> > > I have met with dozens of people who have visited the French wineries
> > > and all of them have told me that the French claim not to add
> > > sulfites.
> >
> > It has been my experience with this and other threads that there is no
> > disagreement at all on the use of SO2.
>
> good
>
> the disagreements are with the
> > univeral statements about acid addition. You seem to come from a place
> > where sugar levels are normally high so sugar addition soens't seem to
be
> > an issue.
> >
> > For what it is worth it is a matter of tone not disagreement that has
> > rasied the collective ire of the group.
> >
> > J Coulter
>
> So are you claiming that German rieslings have sugar added to them? I
didnt
> dare want to make such an accusation for fear of being called troll once
> again.
> You are starting to impress me j coulter. Lets see where you go with
this.
>
>
>

"Bill Spohn" in ...
> >" _Nemo me impune lacessit._"
>
> Fumus, draco magus
> Incoluit mare
>
> (Puff the magic dragon, lived by the sea....)


I thought you might appreciate the selection I quoted, from surely the
best-known wine-related story in US literature, turning on a family motto
related to the good one that came up in this thread.

(The story, moreover, is adequately obsessive, macabre, full of obvious
double meanings, and lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous pretentious --
another specialty of that author -- to assure longevity.)

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in
:

> what did you mean by
>
> "so sugar addition soens't seem to be
> an issue"
>
I only indicated that you seem to come from a high sugar area, nothing more
nothing less no disagreement at all. That you could take offense at this is
part of the communication problem that we are having. I in fact am a novice
who loves wines and hearing about the ones that my budget won't allow, I
would never dream of correcting anyone's notions on how to make wine other
than to state what doesn't work for my particular palate (heavily oaked
chards being a prime example and Petit Syrah on every occassion that I have
tried them)

>>
>> So are you claiming that German rieslings have sugar added to them?
>> I
> didnt
>> dare want to make such an accusation for fear of being called troll
>> once again.
>> You are starting to impress me j coulter. Lets see where you go with
> this.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

>I thought you might appreciate the selection I quoted, from surely the
>best-known wine-related story in US literature, turning on a family motto
>related to the good one that came up in this thread.

I did, Max - a favourite story of mine.

My wife once locked me in a closet by accident and to this day will repeat my
cry for release - "For the love of God, Montresor!", and laughs whenever she
hears it.

As we are talking about wine stories, I find Roald Dahl a wry writer, and his
"A Matter of Taste" is (IMHO anyway) a minor masterpiece - do you know it?

"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in
> :
>
> > what did you mean by
> >
> > "so sugar addition soens't seem to be
> > an issue"
> >
> I only indicated that you seem to come from a high sugar area, nothing
more
> nothing less no disagreement at all. That you could take offense at this
is
> part of the communication problem that we are having. I in fact am a
novice
> who loves wines and hearing about the ones that my budget won't allow, I
> would never dream of correcting anyone's notions on how to make wine other
> than to state what doesn't work for my particular palate (heavily oaked
> chards being a prime example and Petit Syrah on every occassion that I
have
> tried them)

Well,, regardless of if you are a novice or not. Your comment made much
sense. The other scenario regarding the acidity is that the German
Rieslings never reach 26 brix,, If we agreed on this than this debate could
be ended.


>
> >>
> >> So are you claiming that German rieslings have sugar added to them?
> >> I
> > didnt
> >> dare want to make such an accusation for fear of being called troll
> >> once again.
> >> You are starting to impress me j coulter. Lets see where you go with
> > this.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

Ewan McNay wrote:

> I replied to Ian in private also, but this has wider potential. I wonder
> if the recently-much-lauded Dr. Lipton could possibly convince the dept.
> that he knows enough about, say, the role of drug design to make him
> interesting as an invited speaker; and we clearly also need the input of
> a Canadian Lawyer on getting such drugs optimally reimported to the US.
> I can see my application to NIH for the requisite funds now [Budget: no
> honoraria, but $20,000 for meals]. Dale is close enough to need no
> further enticement, I suspect, but I'll have to work on reasons for the
> attendance of Mssrs. Tommassi, Pronay, and so on...

Ewan,
I'll probably be speaking at Yale in the next 12 months or so. I do
actually know quite a number of their faculty quite well. I'll give you
a heads up beforehand if you wish...

Lipton the lauded

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:07:56 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Well,, regardless of if you are a novice or not. Your comment made much
>sense. The other scenario regarding the acidity is that the German
>Rieslings never reach 26 brix,, If we agreed on this than this debate could
>be ended.

German or Austrian Riesling TBA is MINIMUM 36 Brix. Needs no added
acid.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

In article >,
(Bill Spohn) writes:

>As we are talking about wine stories, I find Roald Dahl a wry writer, and his
>"A Matter of Taste" is (IMHO anyway) a minor masterpiece - do you know it?

I'm not Max, but I love that story. I think of it every time at a blind tasting
I find myself trying to catch a glimpse of the cork, or looking where the cover
is loose
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article >, Mark Lipton >
writes:

>Ewan,
> I'll probably be speaking at Yale in the next 12 months or so. I do
>actually know quite a number of their faculty quite well. I'll give you
>a heads up beforehand if you wish...
>

Ewan, I'd be cautious re this. I've heard Mark's penchant for Purdue Fizz is
well-known, and there might be guilt-by-association.

Seriously Mark, if you go to Yale, isn't it easier to fly into NYC and rent a
car? Plan an extra night and there'd be time for an offline.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:49 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> wrote:

>Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
>2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
>these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
>long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.
>We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
>sugar will taste less acidic.
>How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
>acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high
>PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast
>and bacteria to feast on.
>
>I dont think it is possible. But that is just my first hand experience.
>Please,, explain to me how this can be done if you know what you are talking
>about. I really want you to address the stability issue.

Earlier I said I was going to withdraw from this thread, but I simply
couldn't let the above statements go unchallenged. The numbers quoted
are fairly typical for a Columbia Valley (Washington State, USA)
Johannisberg Riesling. Keep in mind that vineyards there are about 46
degrees N, compared with about 50 in, say, the Mosel. Thus grapes
ripen in the former with a much higher sugar level than in the latter.
(I'm not claiming either is better than the other; just that they are
different.) While I don't doubt that acid is sometimes added to such
wines, I can state categorically that sometimes it is not. As far as
firm figures as to how often it is done versus how often it is not, I
have no clue and doubt that anyone else does either. But my point is
that it is not ALWAYS necessary as has been claimed here.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Dale Williams wrote:
> Ewan, I'd be cautious re this. I've heard Mark's penchant for Purdue Fizz is
> well-known, and there might be guilt-by-association.

True. I don't have tenure, so the problems are much greater; but
I think the Ivy League's tendency to ignore non--Ivy behaviour
probably covers this .

> Seriously Mark, if you go to Yale, isn't it easier to fly into NYC and rent a
> car? Plan an extra night and there'd be time for an offline.

But that'd be *much* more work for me... (actually, that's almost
certainly the case regardless - Tweed airport has only two
flights each day, both to Hartford, or something)

Dale Williams wrote:
> In article >,
> (Bill Spohn) writes:
>
>
>>As we are talking about wine stories, I find Roald Dahl a wry writer, and his
>>"A Matter of Taste" is (IMHO anyway) a minor masterpiece - do you know it?
>
>
> I'm not Max, but I love that story. I think of it every time at a blind tasting
> I find myself trying to catch a glimpse of the cork, or looking where the cover
> is loose

For my part, I think of Dorothy Sayers' "The Bibulous Business of a
Matter of Taste," another very amusing short story.

Mark Lipton

>For my part, I think of Dorothy Sayers' "The Bibulous Business of a
>Matter of Taste," another very amusing short story.

Ah, now you're just being Wimseycal......

"dick" > wrote:

> Hang around and I am sure that over time you will learn that
> there are good/great contributors here.
>
> Example:
>
> -M. Pronay is a Sommelier in Vienna, Austria.

To put things into the right perspective: I am 50, my first
academic degree was a master in economics (mag.rer.soc.oec.,
1976), the second a doctorate in law (dr.iur., 1981); my sommelier
career dates from 1984/85, and since 1988 I am a full-time wine
writer.

M.

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> -M. Pronay is a Sommelier in Vienna, Austria.

> Correction: He is the foremost wine critic of Austria

No, I'm not. (But maybe I'm the only one with a little knowledge
of a few foreign languages.)

> (and a *former* sommelier) and an authority par excellence on
> wine from many regions.

<blush> An "ambulant wine encyclopedia" I once was called, but
that refers to times long gone. The older I am getting, the more I
prefer a glass in my hand ... ;-)

M.

"st.helier" > wrote:

> Tis late - the Gewurz has gone - and so have I.

;-)

M.

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> They don't add acidity to sweet wines from the Loire, they don't
> do it in Alsace, they don't do it in Germany, I don't believe
> for a moment that they do it in Austria, though Michael P can
> confirm this,

Of course not. In our noble sweet wines (botrytised, straw wine
and icewines) there's no need at all to add acidity.

M.

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Tom S,
>
> le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:58:06 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
> >The problem is, you are both abrasive and condescending - not to mention
> >somewhat inaccurate.
>
> Somewhat? SOMEWHAT??? Tom, I've not known you as the master of the
> understated murmur!

My laugh for the day, Ian! :^D

> >You'd be welcome here if you were simply _nicer_.
>
> Chuckle....
>
> > but if you step in with guns blazing you're going to get it back - in
spades!
>
> No trumps.
>
> I think we've just about got him in a hexagon squeeze.

??? _Is_ there actually such a play? First I've heard of it.

The OT part:
I wonder how many here are acquainted with the exploits of the Hideous Hog,
from the late Victor Mollo's "Bridge in the Menagerie" series of stories? I
know that Ian and I are, as we've discussed this topic before. Food and
wine are usually part of the scene during the postgame discussions, which
describe in hilarious detail the gaffes and foibles at the card table of
various denizens of the local bridge club. Often the Hog sketches a hand
diagram on a napkin while draining someone else's glass of wine. It makes
for great reading if you're into contract bridge.

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
> ??? _Is_ there actually such a play? First I've heard of it.

Well, yes - see e.g.
http://www.bridgeguys.com/Squeeze/HexagonSqueeze.html - but the
added value to your average bridge game is likely to be fairly
modest from such knowledge .

> The OT part:
> I wonder how many here are acquainted with the exploits of the Hideous Hog,
> from the late Victor Mollo's "Bridge in the Menagerie" series of stories? I
> know that Ian and I are, as we've discussed this topic before. Food and
> wine are usually part of the scene during the postgame discussions, which
> describe in hilarious detail the gaffes and foibles at the card table of
> various denizens of the local bridge club. Often the Hog sketches a hand
> diagram on a napkin while draining someone else's glass of wine. It makes
> for great reading if you're into contract bridge.

Sure; I enjoy David Bird's stuff in similar vein also.

Vincent,

In 5 days, you have sent 60, yes SIXTY posts, most of which are badly
spelled, badly written, inconsequential and abusive. Those that haven't been
whining, self justifying, ill spelt and badly written that is.

le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> You generalised

>> >> >The trend today is to overwrippen grapes inorder to get big complex high alcohol wines.
>>
>> Where? Not in France, certainly. That's the sort of wild, unfounded
>> generalisation that is getting you a trollish reputation.
>
>It is certainly the trend in California.

So we're getting somewhere. You work for a winery in California (probably
the central valley) and are responsible for several million bottles a year.
You feel that wine snobs (whom you define as people who think they know more
about wine than they do) think they know more about wine than they do. You
define what your winery is doing as "the trend" in California, and then
argue from a very small and insignificant particular (in terms of quality
wine making) to the general as if it were accepted practice throughout the
rest of the world.

You can't make up your mind whether you're arguing about sulphur dioxide in
wine or added acid. When challenged on one, you say the other is more
important. I have answered very clearly, your allegation about what french
winemakers say about SO2. ALL (bar one) I've ever visited (and that is well
into 3 figures for the ones whose estates I've been to) or spoken to in
shows etc another set of WELL into 3 figures, are completely open about
their use of sulphur dioxide or sulphites. It simply isn't an issue for
them, so why should they seek to hide it?

As for acidity in very ripe grapes, I've given you specfic information over
which areas in Europe have wines with both high residual sugar content AND
adequate acidity. No, I can't give you some grape juice to analyse, because
its the wrong time of the year. But in many parts of Europe, analysis is
compulsory throughout the process, and in some areas acidification is
illegal except by special dispensation. But YOU know better because your
californian grapes (probably grown with irrigation in the Central valley)
don't have much natural acidity when fully ripened. And you presume to tell
ME that this means winemakers are lying to me.

>Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of
>2%.

That's Riesling, by the way.

> That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get
>these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really
>long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof.

Do you? How do you know?

>We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual
>sugar will taste less acidic.

Oh gee, wow, I never knew that. (sigh... )

>How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no
>acidity?

Try a Wehelener Sonnenuhr Auslese from a year like 2001 from Dr Loosen or JJ
Prum, and you'll find out. Try an Ockfener Bockstein Spätlese from a poor
year and you'll see what natural acidity is all about. You'll also
understand why in that part of Germany the debate is about whether and when
to add sugar, rather than acid.

You're at least admitting that you're making assumptions. And they're
entirely wrong. You see, these wines are not made with irrigation, many are
made from grapes planted on hilsides so steep that all work has to be done
by hand. The conditions are so marginal for the vine that some years the
grapes barely ripen at all, and the yield is tiny by Californian standards.
The Riesling under these conditions gives wines with VERY high natural
acidity, and even when they ripen fully, this acidity remains. There's SO
much tartaric acid in many of them, that when chilled suddenly, the
tartrates deposit out as crystals. Didn't you know any of this? Because if
you didn't, your initial criticism of wine snobs as being ignorant is
extremely ill placed, it seems to me.

Have you heard of Botrytis cinerea? Did you know that in some circumstances
it can be beneficial, and give must with initial sugar content of over
700gms per litre, god alone KNOWS what that would be in Brix. AND with
sufficient initial acidity to give a balanced wine that (on the few
occasions I've been privileged to taste it) has left me speechless with
wonder.

Have you made wine from the Chenin grape? That's another grape which when
grown in the right place, has a huge natural acidity EVEN when very ripe.
But it's possible that when made in Californian sunshine and irrigation at
huge yields you can't perhaps. I don't know. I'm not really very interested
in wines made under such conditions. (which no doubt makes me a wine snob -
so be it). But the problem then isn't so much that you CAN'T get the
acidity, but that in the conditions under which _you_ grow _your_ grapes you
can't.


> Please stop calling me names.

You stop behaving like a troll, and I'll stop calling you one.

In the meantime, you've entirely exhausted my patience and have earned your
way into my kill file. If and when others tell me you've learnt how to
behave, you may be allowed out. So, don't bother to reply. I won't read it.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Michael Pronay" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> Michael Pronay > wrote:
>
> >> What colour underwear was he wearing again?
>
> > How about these?
> >
> > <http://www.hunghaefae.ch/web/gedichte/images/unterhosen.jpg>
>
> Much better:
>
> <http://www.bloedbirne.de/pics/pic194.JPG>
>

Lieber Herr Pronay - das ist wohl disgusting?

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:13 -0500, Mark Lipton >
> wrote:
>
> >p.s. Did you know that Slow Food America is running a Pinot Noir & Pork
> >pairing with the importer Kobrand? They've got quite a lineup of
> >chefs, but the wines (IMO) are not nearly as impressive.
>
> I would have called it a Wine & Swine Pairing...
>
> Too bad about the wines, but how are the pigs? Next time you come over
> I will make sure we have some cured ham from "Noir gascon" pigs,
> imagine the complexity of iberico but the delicacy of San Daniele...
> and made in France, not one of the best places in the world for
> charcuterie...!


Take it from me, them´s really really good pig based products - we ahd the
last of one of those hams last summer - delicious ...

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Ewan McNay" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> I replied to Ian in private also, but this has wider potential.
> I wonder if the recently-much-lauded Dr. Lipton could possibly
> convince the dept. that he knows enough about, say, the role of
> drug design to make him interesting as an invited speaker; and we

I don´t know if you could get him to do that - I recently tried to find a
reason for him to visit Sweden (was talking to my Asst Prof and all) but no
go .. to quote Jacki Chan: falling out of helicopter not difficult. Finding
_leason_ for falling out of helicopter, very difficult.


Cheers

Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:58:04 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>> I think we've just about got him in a hexagon squeeze.
>
>??? _Is_ there actually such a play? First I've heard of it.

Yup.

>The OT part:

>I wonder how many here are acquainted with the exploits of the Hideous Hog,
>from the late Victor Mollo's "Bridge in the Menagerie" series of stories? I
>know that Ian and I are, as we've discussed this topic before. Food and
>wine are usually part of the scene during the postgame discussions, which
>describe in hilarious detail the gaffes and foibles at the card table of
>various denizens of the local bridge club. Often the Hog sketches a hand
>diagram on a napkin while draining someone else's glass of wine. It makes
>for great reading if you're into contract bridge.

And the hands are fascinating, if you're into the delights of the outer
reaches of the improbable.

As for the hexagon squeeze, it is defined as a double guard squeeze in which
each of the three menaces is protected by _both_ opponents.

In the example given, South leads the A of clubs and West must discard the
spade. North discards a diamond and East is squeezed in three suits. Once
West discards his spade, East is caught in a standard guard squeeze.

North
S Q
H A J
D x
C -

WEST EAST
S K S A
H Kx H Q
D Q D Kx
C - C -

South
S -
H x
D A J
C A


Talking of the HH, I should say that my Granny, a very innocent lady born in
the Victorian Era to a _highly_ respectable evangelical family annouced with
great pride when she married. "There!!! I'm no longer a Hogg, I'm a Hoare."

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Mike,

Im not disputing the fact that it is possible to harvest at 36 brix,, such
as an "ice wine". But if you ferment a juice at 36brix you will end up with
a very sweet wine in upwards of 7% residual sugar (the chemist in this forum
can come up with the exact percentage better than I can).

I didnt think we were talking about dessert wines or ice wines.

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:07:56 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >Well,, regardless of if you are a novice or not. Your comment made much
> >sense. The other scenario regarding the acidity is that the German
> >Rieslings never reach 26 brix,, If we agreed on this than this debate
could
> >be ended.
>
> German or Austrian Riesling TBA is MINIMUM 36 Brix. Needs no added
> acid.
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail