"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> Vino
>
> I'm not going to quote this last post, as this whole discussion is getting
a
> little hard to follow. I was just trying to clarify Vincent's position.
>
> I certainly never questioned the alcohol levels on any bottle of wine (WA
or
> otherwise). I was merely citing my source of that information, as I have
no
> inside information about the WA wine industry. I have observed that off
dry
> Rieslings from Washington have higher alcohol levels (12%) than the
> "equivalent" product from Germany, where the wines range, according to
labels,
> from 7.5 to 11%. Again, I accept these figures as correct. By
"equivalent", I
> was attempting to compare off dry Riesling from Washington with those from
> Germany, and remind (Is that the correct word?) Vincent of the differences
that
> might account for the different acidities. Clearly, the WA and German
wines are
> very different.
>
> Unfortunately, Vincent tends to jump around and become defensive, without
> trying to zero in on the meat of the matter.
> I think he is suggesting that concentrated must, either due to the
freezing of
> the grapes or due to botrytis, would not lose acidity as the sugar levels
rise,
> as would a "naturally ripening" grape. This is actually an interesting
> question.
>
> I'm happy to clarify my points. I just wish Vincent were a little less
> defensive, so that we get to the correct science, without the back and
forth
> attacks (which, I believe, Vincent has largely precipitated).

are you directing your question to me? if so, i will respond about acidity
levels in botrytisized wines/ icewines/ concentrated wine vs. typical dinner
wines.

As a grapes mature and rippen,, (i think i said this all before somewhere in
this tread) sugar levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced along
with acids becomming limited to primarily tartaric. Lets say a Cabernet
grape from California matures something like this:

stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12
stage 2: TA .9 - PH3.6 - Brix20
stage 3: TA .5 - PH3.5 - Brix22
stage 4: TA .2 - PH4.3 - Brix27

Figure that about stage 4, the grapes start dehydrating. Another few weeks
of hanging, you pretty much have raisins.
Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate.
Some here are accusing me of disputing this fact; I am not.
However: I am defending the FACT that "As a grape matures and rippen,, sugar
levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced" To the best of my
knowledge I have never seen any evidence to the contrary nor has any been
presented here.

If a grape is harvested at stage 3 you will end up with relatively stable
wine. Ice wines and similiar items are made when these grapes are frozen /
then thawed and pressed.
Sugar and other compounds thaw before water. As the sugar thaws and drops,
it is collected. Sugar concentrtion could start really high (50-76brix).
When the water/ice starts thawing the brix goes down. At a certain point
the process is stopped and the remaining ice is discarded.

The dehydration of juice can also be done on the vine. Boytrits, in some
circumstances, can attack a grape cluster and dehydrate the fruit,, causing
a concentration of sugar and other compounds.

Dehydration can also be accomplished by (my favorite) advanced concentration
machinery. There are some pretty neat pieces of equipment on the market.

All different degrees of concentration can be accomplished and they vary.

NOw... I am assuming from things I have learned in this thread,, that most
German wines are harvested around stage 2 then concentrated, or,,,
concentrated than harvested around stage 2, by one of the methods descibed
above.

During concentration water is removed therefore Brix and TA increase,, PH
will stay about even. So a german wine could end up being .9TA - PH3.6 -
10% alcohol - 2% sugar. This makes a balanced and chemically stable wine
(with sterile filtration or potassium sorbate)

ON the other hand,,, If the grapes were left to mature on the vine they will
continue to increase in sugar, acididty will be reduced ,and the PH will
increase.

I hope this was helpful.

Vincent

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> >Tom,,
> >You are comparing apples to oranges. It seems the numbers people are
> >quoting here are from concentrated juices. These are juices/grapes that
> >have been dehydrated by one means or another. Certainly they will have
> >higher sugar and acidity if there is no water. I was under the
impression
> >that Germany made wines other than these concentrated types. I guess
not,,
> >because these are the only numbers I see posted.
>
> Vincent
>
> I may be reading these posts out of order. First, I don't think there
would be
> two different reading for sugar levels if we are talking about botrytized
> wines. The grapes are already partially dessicated when picked, due to the
> action of mold. So this seems to explain why many late harvest German
wines
> would have high sugar and high acidity.

Not sure I understand you correctly.

>
> But botrytis is not universal in these wines, and the plot thickens.

I explained in my other posts how dehydration is achieved by other methods

> Pronay says it's the grape, but I don't have the chemisty background to
support
> or to refute this

hmmm,,, Yes,, different grape varieties mature to different level but I
have never heard of a grape that will mature to 35+ brix without becoming a
raisin. If there is such a grape, I know people who will pay big money for
it. Let me know where I can get some cuttings.

On 15 Apr 2004 21:50:10 GMT, (Xyzsch) wrote:

>Vino
>
>I'm not going to quote this last post, as this whole discussion is getting a
>little hard to follow. I was just trying to clarify Vincent's position.
I think you've set yourself an impossible task, but I wish you the
best of luck.

>I certainly never questioned the alcohol levels on any bottle of wine (WA or
>otherwise). I was merely citing my source of that information, as I have no
>inside information about the WA wine industry. I have observed that off dry
>Rieslings from Washington have higher alcohol levels (12%) than the
>"equivalent" product from Germany, where the wines range, according to labels,
>from 7.5 to 11%. Again, I accept these figures as correct. By "equivalent", I
>was attempting to compare off dry Riesling from Washington with those from
>Germany, and remind (Is that the correct word?) Vincent of the differences that
>might account for the different acidities. Clearly, the WA and German wines are
>very different.
As I've indicated in earlier posts, I clearly have a special place in
my heart for Columbia Valley rieslings. This doesn't mean that I can't
appreciate (and like) rieslings from Germany, Alsace, the Finger Lakes
area, and hell, even some areas of Australia. But I'm tired of hearing
CV rieslings being dismissed because "they aren't like German
rieslings". They're not intended to be like German rieslings. Whether
one likes them or not is beside the point. I just wish people would
stop comparing them with standards they were never intended to
correspond to.

>Unfortunately, Vincent tends to jump around and become defensive, without
>trying to zero in on the meat of the matter.
Right on!

>I think he is suggesting that concentrated must, either due to the freezing of
>the grapes or due to botrytis, would not lose acidity as the sugar levels rise,
>as would a "naturally ripening" grape. This is actually an interesting
>question.
It is. At some point, the physiological processes that occur in
ripening (or over-ripening) grapes stop. If, after that, the only
thing that happens is removal of water, i.e dehydration, then TA
should not decrease, although sugar concentration will increase. My
sense is that, with ice wine, these processes have stopped. With
botrytis infected grapes, I don't know.
>
>I'm happy to clarify my points. I just wish Vincent were a little less
>defensive, so that we get to the correct science, without the back and forth
>attacks (which, I believe, Vincent has largely precipitated).
I agree completely.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
...
> As a grapes mature and rippen,, (i think i said this all before somewhere
in
> this tread) sugar levels increases, pH increases and TA is reduced along
> with acids becomming limited to primarily tartaric. Lets say a Cabernet
> grape from California matures something like this:
>
> stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12
> stage 2: TA .9 - PH3.6 - Brix20
> stage 3: TA .5 - PH3.5 - Brix22
> stage 4: TA .2 - PH4.3 - Brix27

I find those numbers a bit out of line with my experience. Perhaps that's
Central Valley fruit. For Napa Valley Cabernet I'd say this is a little
more reasonable:

stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12
stage 2: TA 1.1 - PH3.1 - Brix19
stage 3: TA .8 - PH3.5 - Brix22
stage 4: TA .5 - PH3.8 - Brix24

At 24° Brix, the pH is a bit out of line, but a light addition of tartaric
acid easily fixes that problem. Still, I've seen wines that were made with
these starting numbers that tasted remarkably nice.

> However: I am defending the FACT that "As a grape matures and rippen,,
sugar
> levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced" To the best of my
> knowledge I have never seen any evidence to the contrary nor has any been
> presented here.

And none will be. What you have attested to in that respect is a simple
fact of biochemistry: As sugar goes up during the maturation of the fruit,
acidity drops - causing a corresponding rise in the pH.

What you have overlooked is that the fact of growing in a cooler climate
skews the numbers in such a way that as the fruit ripens (not "rippens",
BTW) and the sugar increases, the acid doesn't drop (nor does the pH rise)
as rapidly as in warmer climates.

> NOw... I am assuming from things I have learned in this thread,, that
most
> German wines are harvested around stage 2 then concentrated, or,,,
> concentrated than harvested around stage 2, by one of the methods descibed
> above.

This is the part you don't seem to GET. In years when the weather is
favorable (no early rains), German grapes can ripen to substantial Brix
_without_ losing their acidity. There is no need for concentrators or any
such manmade intervention. The cooler growing climate tends to sustain the
acidity in the fruit, while allowing the sugar to rise during the longer
days closer to the polar region.

> ON the other hand,,, If the grapes were left to mature on the vine they
will
> continue to increase in sugar, acididty will be reduced ,and the PH will
> increase.

That's what happens in general worldwide, but the _rates_ at which those
three things simultaneously occur is _greatly_ influenced by the average
temperature and the length of the day during the growing season. If you
don't believe it, brush up on your German and go to Mosel for the
Oktoberfest and a little wine touring.

Then come back here and apologize for shooting your mouth off without
knowing what you're talking about, and irritating the hell out of the rest
of us who DO!

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> ...
> > As a grapes mature and rippen,, (i think i said this all before
somewhere
> in
> > this tread) sugar levels increases, pH increases and TA is reduced along
> > with acids becomming limited to primarily tartaric. Lets say a Cabernet
> > grape from California matures something like this:
> >
> > stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12
> > stage 2: TA .9 - PH3.6 - Brix20
> > stage 3: TA .5 - PH3.5 - Brix22
> > stage 4: TA .2 - PH4.3 - Brix27
>
> I find those numbers a bit out of line with my experience. Perhaps that's
> Central Valley fruit. For Napa Valley Cabernet I'd say this is a little
> more reasonable:
>
> stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12
> stage 2: TA 1.1 - PH3.1 - Brix19
> stage 3: TA .8 - PH3.5 - Brix22
> stage 4: TA .5 - PH3.8 - Brix24
>
> At 24° Brix, the pH is a bit out of line, but a light addition of tartaric
> acid easily fixes that problem. Still, I've seen wines that were made
with
> these starting numbers that tasted remarkably nice.

Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to detail?

"Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this"

I was not stating a fact,, I was giving a scenario in order to make explain
the process. I made this very clear. I am not sure why you are knit
picking.

"Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"

Did you not see this statement? I specifically said this because I knew
there was going to be someone in this forum just looking to jump down my
throat.


>
> > However: I am defending the FACT that "As a grape matures and rippen,,
> sugar
> > levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced" To the best of my
> > knowledge I have never seen any evidence to the contrary nor has any
been
> > presented here.
>
> And none will be. What you have attested to in that respect is a simple
> fact of biochemistry: As sugar goes up during the maturation of the
fruit,
> acidity drops - causing a corresponding rise in the pH.

umm,, that is what he asked for. I was explaining fact. You can redicule
me or you can answer Tom Schellberg's questions.

>
> What you have overlooked is that the fact of growing in a cooler climate
> skews the numbers in such a way that as the fruit ripens (not "rippens",
> BTW) and the sugar increases, the acid doesn't drop (nor does the pH rise)
> as rapidly as in warmer climates.

"Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"

Overlooked? I think you overlooked my post. You are restating exactly what
I said while trying to make me look wrong.



>
> > NOw... I am assuming from things I have learned in this thread,, that
> most
> > German wines are harvested around stage 2 then concentrated, or,,,
> > concentrated than harvested around stage 2, by one of the methods
descibed
> > above.
>
> This is the part you don't seem to GET. In years when the weather is
> favorable (no early rains), German grapes can ripen to substantial Brix
> _without_ losing their acidity. There is no need for concentrators or any
> such manmade intervention. The cooler growing climate tends to sustain
the
> acidity in the fruit, while allowing the sugar to rise during the longer
> days closer to the polar region.

Specifically, what "dont I seem to GET"? What is substantial Brix? Over 35
as someone had suggested earlier?


>
> > ON the other hand,,, If the grapes were left to mature on the vine they
> will
> > continue to increase in sugar, acididty will be reduced ,and the PH will
> > increase.
>
> That's what happens in general worldwide, but the _rates_ at which those
> three things simultaneously occur is _greatly_ influenced by the average
> temperature and the length of the day during the growing season. If you
> don't believe it, brush up on your German and go to Mosel for the
> Oktoberfest and a little wine touring.

""Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"
You are preaching to the choir. I dont see the point you are trying to
make.


>
> Then come back here and apologize for shooting your mouth off without
> knowing what you're talking about, and irritating the hell out of the rest
> of us who DO!

I think you are the one who should be appoligizing.

Hey, y'all, there is something singular here. An achievement in teasing
out the most reponses I can recall in some interval of live reading and
archives on wine. Especially, the most responses in one thread, that
promised to be "the last thing I am going to post on this thread," or
similar words. (Credit where due!)


"Mike Tommasi" in ...
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:24:00 GMT, "Vincent Vega"
> > wrote:
>
> >> Vincent where do/did you make your wines and what company do/did you
work
> >for.
> >
> >> George Cox
> >
> >How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can
> >anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?
>
> OK, now are you all convinced that this thread must be dropped and
> that this guy is a troll and has managed to occupy half the
> newsgroup's bandwidth with his obnoxious drivel ?
>
> Damn, I said I would not respond
>
> Mike

Vino > wrote:

> At some point, the physiological processes that occur in
> ripening (or over-ripening) grapes stop. If, after that, the
> only thing that happens is removal of water, i.e dehydration,
> then TA should not decrease, although sugar concentration will
> increase. My sense is that, with ice wine, these processes have
> stopped. With botrytis infected grapes, I don't know.

Botrytis makes the skin permeable. This leads to evaporation of
volatile components, including water and acidity. But the water
evaporation rate being far superior to the rate of aciditiy,
acidity content goes up, not down.

M.

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
> m...
> Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to detail?

I read the entire post and responded to detail _in_ detail.

> "Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this"
>
> I was not stating a fact,, I was giving a scenario in order to make
explain
> the process. I made this very clear. I am not sure why you are knit
> picking.

I may be nit picking, but that's what we do here sometimes when it becomes
necessary to clear up a misunderstanding or misconception.

> "Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"
>
> Did you not see this statement? I specifically said this because I knew
> there was going to be someone in this forum just looking to jump down my
> throat.

Yes, I saw that. Apparently, based on your previous posts, you don't
believe that varietal and especially climate can have such a dramatic effect
on the progression of fruit maturity. You seem to believe it impossible for
grapes to ripen to 24°+ Brix while retaining TA of 10g/l, e.g. I am telling
you that I have worked with such fruit myself, grown here in California in a
Region 1 area (Santa Maria).

> > What you have overlooked is that the fact of growing in a cooler climate
> > skews the numbers in such a way that as the fruit ripens (not "rippens",
> > BTW) and the sugar increases, the acid doesn't drop (nor does the pH
rise)
> > as rapidly as in warmer climates.
>
> "Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"
>
> Overlooked? I think you overlooked my post. You are restating exactly
what
> I said while trying to make me look wrong.

I was merely expanding on what you'd said to make it clearer. As for trying
to make you look wrong, I don't need to help you in that regard. You seem
to be doing quite well all on your own.

> Specifically, what "dont I seem to GET"? What is substantial Brix? Over
35
> as someone had suggested earlier?

How about 26° or more, as you suggested yourself?

> I think you are the one who should be appoligizing.

I'd bet the majority here - even those who don't like me very much - would
disagree with that. Care to poll them? If they agree with you I'll offer
you my most profuse apologies.

Tom S

Come on now Tom S....who dislikes you :-)


"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom S" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to
detail?
>
> I read the entire post and responded to detail _in_ detail.
>
> > "Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this"
> >
> > I was not stating a fact,, I was giving a scenario in order to make
> explain
> > the process. I made this very clear. I am not sure why you are knit
> > picking.
>
> I may be nit picking, but that's what we do here sometimes when it becomes
> necessary to clear up a misunderstanding or misconception.
>
> > "Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and
climate"
> >
> > Did you not see this statement? I specifically said this because I knew
> > there was going to be someone in this forum just looking to jump down my
> > throat.
>
> Yes, I saw that. Apparently, based on your previous posts, you don't
> believe that varietal and especially climate can have such a dramatic
effect
> on the progression of fruit maturity. You seem to believe it impossible
for
> grapes to ripen to 24°+ Brix while retaining TA of 10g/l, e.g. I am
telling
> you that I have worked with such fruit myself, grown here in California in
a
> Region 1 area (Santa Maria).
>
> > > What you have overlooked is that the fact of growing in a cooler
climate
> > > skews the numbers in such a way that as the fruit ripens (not
"rippens",
> > > BTW) and the sugar increases, the acid doesn't drop (nor does the pH
> rise)
> > > as rapidly as in warmer climates.
> >
> > "Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and
climate"
> >
> > Overlooked? I think you overlooked my post. You are restating exactly
> what
> > I said while trying to make me look wrong.
>
> I was merely expanding on what you'd said to make it clearer. As for
trying
> to make you look wrong, I don't need to help you in that regard. You seem
> to be doing quite well all on your own.
>
> > Specifically, what "dont I seem to GET"? What is substantial Brix?
Over
> 35
> > as someone had suggested earlier?
>
> How about 26° or more, as you suggested yourself?
>
> > I think you are the one who should be appoligizing.
>
> I'd bet the majority here - even those who don't like me very much - would
> disagree with that. Care to poll them? If they agree with you I'll offer
> you my most profuse apologies.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom S" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to
detail?

>
> > "Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this"
> >
> > I was not stating a fact,, I was giving a scenario in order to make
> explain
> > the process. I made this very clear. I am not sure why you are knit
> > picking.
>
> I may be nit picking, but that's what we do here sometimes when it becomes
> necessary to clear up a misunderstanding or misconception.


What misconception? What misunderstanding? Sounds like you are
filabustering. You did nothing but repeat what I already said. What am I
wrong about? Get off your elitist pedistal and stop claiming I dont know
what I am talking about when you seem to agree with everything I am saying.

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:21:39 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>> Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to detail?
>
>I read the entire post and responded to detail _in_ detail.

Give it up, Tom, the guy's a contumaceous pillock. By quoting all his
drivelling disputatious crap, you merely make it harder for those who've
long put him in our killfile to avoid him.

He WILL not read what's written, he WILL not listen to a word anyone says
except to bloody argue the whole time. Let it drop, life's TOO damn short.
>> I think you are the one who should be appoligizing.

>I'd bet the majority here - even those who don't like me very much - would
>disagree with that. Care to poll them? If they agree with you I'll offer
>you my most profuse apologies.

Don't bother. Even the most patient here (I am not amongst them) has given
up.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Thanks for your reply Vino.

I was not trying to suggest that WA rieslings are better, worse or the same
as those from Germany. I was merely suggesting that a given grape grown in
different climatic conditions can give much different results re acidity,
alcohol content etc. That is really what this dicussion is all about, and why I
wanted to emphasise that point in my post.

Tom Schellberg

>On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:44:39 GMT, [someone] wrote:
>
>>[someone else] wrote:
>>
>>>a very small residual of sulfites remain in wine due to the process of
>>>fermentation. (less than 10 parts per million).
>>>
>>Here are some of the sulfides that are natural to the wine process and
>>you can see the ppm are even greater.
>>
>>hydrogen sulfide H2S rotten egg, sewage-like 0.9-1.5
>>ethyl mercaptan CH3CH2SH burnt match, sulfidy, earthy 1.1-1.8
>>methyl mercaptan CH3SH rotten cabbage, burnt rubber 1.5
>>diethy sulfide CH3CH2SCH2CH3 rubbery 0.9-1.3
>>dimethyl sulfide CH3SCH3 canned corn, cooked cabbage, asparagus 17-25
>>diethyl disulfide CH3CH2SSCH2CH3 garlic, burnt rubber 3.6-4.3
>>dimethyl disulfide CH3SSCH3 vegetal, cabbage, onion-like at high levels
>>9.8-10.2
>>carbon disulfide CS2 sweet, ethereal, slightly green, sulfidy 5
>>
>>
>>
>>Given this much sulfide already there, why would anyone want to add more.
>>

I (Vino) wrote:
>The compounds you list are sulfides which, according to the chemical
>formulas you cite, do not contain oxygen. The discussion here is about
>sulfites, which by definition DO contain oxygen. The characteristics
>of the two classes of compounds are completely different.
>
>I'm curious about where your figures for sulfide concentrations came
>from.

Sorry to go back so far to a thread that had (mercifully) petered out,
but I just read a reply (sent by e-mail; I won't go into why I was so
late reading it) to the question I posed about the source of the above
data on sulfide concentrations. It is

http://www.etslabs.com/scripts/ets/p...asp?pageid=350

As I read the chart used for the data, it refers to typical sensory
thresholds for the listed compounds, NOT typical amounts actually
found in wine. The earlier interpretation simply did not make sense to
me and probably didn't to others as well.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:24:37 GMT, Vino > wrote:

>http://www.etslabs.com/scripts/ets/p...asp?pageid=350
>
>As I read the chart used for the data, it refers to typical sensory
>thresholds for the listed compounds, NOT typical amounts actually
>found in wine. The earlier interpretation simply did not make sense to
>me and probably didn't to others as well.

Note also that the figures on the chart are "ppb" (parts per billion),
not ppm, as th original poster indicated. That was a major reason for
my skepticism.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.