Please show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically!
Please demand to see organic certification on your wine labels!

You are kidding right? The whole organic wine industry is a sham.


"St. Matthew" > wrote in message
om...
> Please show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically!
> Please demand to see organic certification on your wine labels!

In some areas organic wine certification is not recognized. Some wine
standards preclude organic production. As I understand it VQA is one that
today does not allow organic labelling but I heard that they are looking at
this issue.

Joe

"St. Matthew" > wrote in message
om...
> Please show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically!
> Please demand to see organic certification on your wine labels!

St. Matthew wrote:

> Please show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically!
> Please demand to see organic certification on your wine labels!

Why?

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message >...
> You are kidding right? The whole organic wine industry is a sham.

Huh? Those sulfites are horrible for people!

Charles H > wrote in message >...
> St. Matthew wrote:
>
> > Please show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically!
> > Please demand to see organic certification on your wine labels!
>
> Why?

The reasons are plentiful, Charles:

http://www.wholelifetimes.com/OrganicWine.html


Wine That Speaks to the Soul

Some winemakers see themselves as soulful stewards of the land.
Surprisingly, their world class, pesticide-free wine may be
hiding on a shelf in your local market.

By Deborah Behrens

"Wine is farming." Richard Sanford spoke firmly, his voice resonating
with the quiet conviction of someone with deep spiritual connections
to the earth. "Fundamentally, I think it comes from the soul. It comes
out of an expression of how people feel they should be in the world."

For grape growers like Sanford, whose award-winning winery is located
in southern California's Santa Ynez Valley, organic farming is not a
marketing strategy dictated by political correctness. It evolved from
a personal dedication to fine winemaking, coupled with a deeply held
belief in responsible stewardship of the land.

The French call it terroir. Capturing it in a bottle is the yearly
Holy Grail of winemakers across the globe. Loosely translated, the
word means " a sense of place," or a vineyard's specific natural
attributes-soil, climate and geography-that conspire to produce the
unique taste of its grapes at the exact moment of harvest.

Imagine, then, the bouquet of a wine crafted by a man whose Taoist
environmental philosophies have created one of the world's most
respected Pinot Noirs-earning 91 points from Wine Spectator and rated
as one of "California's Best Wines of the Year" by The Wine News.

Sanford combines ruggedly handsome leading man looks with a Zen
master's poise. At age 62, he looks 10 years younger, with a boyish
charm and healthy vitality that belie his avid love of the outdoors. A
1965 U.C. Berkeley geography/geology graduate, he chose farming after
a stint in Vietnam because he wanted to be involved with "something
more earthly connected," and grape farming specifically, he said with
a grin, "because it seemed like a cool thing to do."

Sanford is credited with proving to skeptics that grapes could be
grown in southern California's Santa Ynez Valley, where the soil and
climate compare favorably with that of France's Burgundy. With
then-partner Michael Benedict, he planted the region's earliest Pinot
Noir vineyard in 1971, and their first wines were released in 1976 to
international acclaim. He and Benedict parted ways four years later,
and Sanford founded Sanford Winery with his wife Thekla the following
year.

Sustainable Commitment

Nestled in the Santa Rita Hills, the Sanford Winery is a testament to
the Sanfords' commitment to the environment and sustainable farming.
They have been farming organically for 20 years and in 1999 were the
first winery in Santa Barbara to have its estate vineyards certified
organic by the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF).

Natural springs water all four vineyards. A miniature spring house in
the fields features a wall fountain adorned with the head of Bacchus,
the god of wine.

Not content simply to farm organically, Sanford honors his land by
preserving large portions of it. Nearly 650 acres of natural habitat
at each of the winery's four ranches are pledged as a conservation
easement, and 100 acres have been set aside in a land trust as an oak
woodland preserve.

The La Riconada vineyard is a refuge for endangered wildlife; since
1998, the Bird Research Group at U.C. Santa Cruz has rescued young
falcons across the state and released more than 30 there each summer.

Their red-tile roofed, mission-style wine facility at La Riconada is
believed to be the largest handmade adobe construction since the
California missions were built, the culmination of a 20-year dream. A
natural spring runs through the sprawling stone and stucco building,
facilitating feng shui energy flow. In the courtyard, a massive Buddha
statue faces one of Saint Guadalupe, inlaid in an exterior wall to
honor the spiritual philosophy of Sanford's largely Latino workers,
most of whom have been with him for years.

"It's been very exciting," he enthused. "I had thought about [the
building] for a long, long time. But the very cool thing is to see it
all working properly. For me, it's just a big game of figuring it all
out!" He grinned and laughed with the twinkling eyes of a kid who'd
just built his first treehouse.

The Organic Challenge

We city-dwellers who honor the land from a distance do so in part by
shopping locally for items that are a testament to our beliefs about
health and the environment. For example, in planning a dinner party,
we might shop for organic salad greens and grain-fed, free-range
chicken, to be followed by an organic fruit tart with flakey whole
wheat crust.

But in choosing wine to accompany such a feast, we're likely to choose
a familiar, top-selling brand a product farmed with more chemicals
than all the other food items combined.

This is a paradox the organic and organically grown wine industry
faces daily. Consumers who are willing to pay more to shop organically
just don't believe the same quality exists in so-called "organic"
wines. Many recall with distaste the early, unfiltered versions from
the 1980s when the industry was in its infancy. Others don't realize
that some of their favorite award winning vineyards are actually
farmed organically, but remain unlabeled as such for fear of negative
reaction.

What follows next is a classic Catch-22 scenario. Some winemakers want
to see more consumer demand before they commit to the labyrinth of
governmental regulations that control organic classification.
Consumers, on the other hand, simply haven't cared with enough of
their dollars to convince them.

Organic Semantics

Richard Sanford didn't used to care either. It took 10 years of
observing the effects of conventional spraying before he made the
decision to farm organically.

"I used to drive the tractor and do everything myself when I was
starting out," he said, speaking in the winery's conference room
which, like the adjacent tasting room and other company offices, is
made from an old barn transplanted from one of Sanford's four
vineyards. "I saw that the chemicals we were spraying on the earth
must be getting into our ground water, our resources. It's foolish to
think that the tons of chemicals we produce aren't integrated back
into the environment. We're just polluting ourselves.

"My wife Thekla said to me, 'Richard, we're growing all our food
organically. Why don't you just grow the grapes organically?' It was a
big challenge. We weaned ourselves off chemical herbicides and
pesticides in a matter of three years. Now the farming costs are
comparable to traditional farming costs. It's mainly a trade-off of
chemicals for labor."

Despite his organic pedigree, however, Sanford does not technically
produce "organic" wine. Nor does he, or anyone else interviewed for
this story, particularly want to be recognized in that category as it
is currently defined. And even if they did, they'd be prevented by
law. Whether a winery can call its wines "organic" versus "made with
organically grown grapes," or label them accordingly on the front
versus the back of the bottle, is determined by the United States
government.

Why? It boils down to one infamous word: Sulfites.

Sulfites' Bad Rap

The issue of sulfur dioxide as a food preservative came to the
national consciousness in the early 1980s when a number of consumer
illnesses and deaths of sensitive (usually asthmatic) people were
attributed to sulfite usage on fresh fruits and vegetables in
restaurant salad bars. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
subsequently banned most uses of it on produce and required that all
products containing sulfites have it spelled out on the label. Since
July 9, 1987, warning labels have been required on all alcoholic
beverages with at least 10 parts per million (ppm) of sulfites.

According to the FDA, one percent of the general population and five
percent of asthmatics are affected by sulfites. Despite those low
statistics, a residual fear of them has remained. In any event, all
wine contains naturally occurring sulfites as a by-product of
fermentation. Even wines that are labeled as having "no added
sulfites," and are thus permitted to call themselves "organic," such
as organic/no sulfite pioneer Frey Vineyards in Mendocino, may still
contain between 6 and 15 ppm.

Most fine winemakers believe that adding a minimum level of sulfites
in the form of sulfur salts or sulfur dioxide solutions during
fermentation ensures shelf stability; it helps prevent both oxidation
and bacterial growth while allowing aging-and the development of fine
nuances-to occur. But because they add sulfites, they cannot call
themselves "organic," but must instead say their wine is "made with
organically grown grapes."

"It doesn't work to have fine 'organic' wine at the present time,"
said Sanford. "Under the current rules, it would have no sulfites and
be very fragile. You'd look at it and it would oxidize.

"All our wines are grown organically. The only addition we have is
sulfur dioxide to protect against oxidation. Even though it's at very
low levels, we're unable to call it organic wine. But it is wine from
organically produced grapes."

Sante Losio and Bruno Allaire, wine consultants and creators of last
year's EcoWineFest 2003, the first international "organically grown"
wine festival, concur that it's difficult to make a quality wine
without some added sulfites. As importers of fine organically grown
wines from all over the world, they've seen what happens when you
don't.

"Organic wine that is truly alive can't be agitated," observed Allaire
and Losio. "It's more sensitive to light, change of temperature and
has a short shelf life. Wines that are "organically grown" are
permitted to add sulfur up to 100 ppm, which is less than 1%. Most add
less than a third of that, and are still way below the maximum 350 ppm
allowed in conventional wine growing."

Bion Rice, president of the award winning, organically farmed Sunstone
Vineyards and Winery in Santa Ynez, uses sulfur in the winemaking
process because, "We believe you have to do that in order to make
wines that have integrity and will ship well across the country."

"It's a commitment to quality and to our customers," Rice noted. " I
believe when they buy one of our reserve wines, they want to sit on it
for a while. They want to see it get to its optimum drinking. You
don't want to drink a wine when it's too young, so you have to use
sulfites. The day someone comes up with an alternative, they'll be a
billionaire overnight."

Rice found out the hard way in the late 1990s that "nobody really
cared" that they grew Rhone and Bordeaux varietals organically and
were completely biosustainable.

"We lost a lot of ground trying to communicate the difference between
environmental preservationism, which is what we're doing, versus being
an 'organic' winery," he said. "We are totally devoted to the land.
There's no Round-up (pesticide) anywhere. We weed everything by hand,
even around the tasting room facilities. It's a commitment we made
long ago that comes down to a personal philosophy."

What's On the Label

Since certification affects what a winery can put on the front or back
label of a bottle-making an organic bottle easier to spot on the
shelf-consumers who want more labeled organic wines in their stores
need to show wineries that getting certified is worth it economically.

"Until consumers become educated enough to demand to see organic
certification on wine labels," said Allaire, "you're not going to see
an increase in organically produced wines."

Winemakers who want to label their wines in any organic category face
a gauntlet of certification requirements and fluctuating governmental
regulations. Beginning in October 2002, the federal Organic Food
Production Act required that California wineries could only use the
terms "organic" or "organically grown" if their wine growing practices
could pass its organic certification standards as outlined in the new
regulations. The National Organic Program (NOP), under the USDA, is
responsible for implementing the "Rule," as it is now called, and
accredits a mix of private and public certifying agents in each state
to carry out certification procedures.

Under NOP standards, in order to label your wine "organic," it must
contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, and no added
sulfites. To label "made with organically grown grapes," it must
contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients, and only up to 100ppm
of added sulfites. To be able to put either phrase on the back of the
bottle, you must be an "organically certified grower." To put it in
prime position on the front label, you must be an "organically
certified processor" as well.

In California, the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF) is
considered one of the most revered and respected in the United States.
All the wineries mentioned in this article were already CCOF certified
before the Rule went into effect. Fetzer's Bonterra Vineyards is among
the very few that have both types of certification. Sanford Winery
mentions that its vineyards are certified organic on the back of its
new premium label. Sunstone Vineyards, though CCOF certified, notes it
on only a third of their offerings.

"Some people say they're organic, but don't have certification,"
Richard Sanford stated. "I think it's a cop-out. Certification takes
three years of abstention from using any chemicals. People talk about
sustainability as not necessarily being organic, but organic makes
consumers pay a lot more attention."

Histamine Hangovers?

Some winemakers contend that naturally occurring histamines (which
dilate the blood vessels in the brain), chemical residuals and other
additives used in conventional winemaking to enhance flavor and
bouquet are the real culprits for consumer headaches and illness, not
sulfites. Many conventional wines contain more than 50 ingredients,
including flavorings, forbidden by law in wines grown organically.

Flavorful grapes don't need them. A wine that boasts a strong French
Oak nose may actually be trying to cover up poor quality fruit,
explained Rice. "That's a dead giveaway for me. If a wine tastes like
wood chips, you'd have to ask, 'Why would they do that to a really
good Chardonnay?'"

Sanford, who believes winemaking is a "nice metaphor for life,"
concurred. "What we're trying to do is achieve balance," he observed,
gently swirling a garnet glassful of his acclaimed 2000 La Riconada
Pinot Noir. "Intensity of fruit, plus just enough acid to balance the
amount of fruit. Regrettably, many winemakers use the same formula for
different fruit characteristics [and] end up having oak-y water."

Wine Lovers Unite

For now, consumers who purchase an organic head of lettuce for two to
three times the price of one grown conventionally do not yet see the
same price/value equivalency for organically grown wines. And unless
consumer demand for certified organically grown and labeled wine
increases dramatically, it will remain an expanding, but boutique
category.

"People don't see wine as a living product," said Rice. "You buy the
head of lettuce because it's alive. A bottle of wine is hidden behind
dark glass. But I also think the category is going to become more
popular because the big players are behind it now."

Sanford remains committed but skeptical regarding public demand.

"There hasn't been any premium on even saying 'organic.' The reality
is, that as a fine wine producer, it used to be a death knell to have
organic on the label. People perceived it as being not very good. But
I'm very proud of it and think people deserve to know how their food
has been treated.

"People aren't willing to pay a premium for organic at the present
time," he concluded. "I don't know that they are as compelled to drink
organic wine as buy organic produce, because in doing so, they would
greatly limit their choices. I think the category has to grow a lot
before consumers take it seriously."

End of article.

L.A. writer, filmmaker and playwright Deborah Behrens' recent cover
stories include WLT's Mariel Hemingway and Sir Ben Kingsley for LA
Stage.

(St. Matthew) wrote in
om:

> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> >...
>> You are kidding right? The whole organic wine industry is a sham.
>
> Huh? Those sulfites are horrible for people!

Once again, ALL WINES CONTAIN SULFITES. There is no such thing as wine
without sulfites. Wines can have no sulfites added, but sulfites are
produced when grapes are fermented. You get more sulfites from a glass of
orange juice than a bottle of wine. There are many reasons to buy organic
wine. Sulfites are not one of them. Anyone selling "sulfite-free wine" is
selling more than just wine.

Fred.

Nearly everyting you eat or drink has sulfites, either naturally
occurring, added, or both (most wine has both). Besides, sulfites are
not nearly as bad as what may get into the wine if SO2 is not used.

(St. Matthew) wrote in message . com>...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message >...
> > You are kidding right? The whole organic wine industry is a sham.
>
> Huh? Those sulfites are horrible for people!

"AyTee" > wrote in message
om...
> Nearly everyting you eat or drink has sulfites, either naturally
> occurring, added, or both (most wine has both). Besides, sulfites are
> not nearly as bad as what may get into the wine if SO2 is not used.

Finally! A voice of reason.

On 5 Apr 2004 15:20:59 -0700, (St.
Matthew) wrote:

>"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message >...
>> You are kidding right? The whole organic wine industry is a sham.
>
>Huh? Those sulfites are horrible for people!

Decide where you want to post, no crossposting please...

There is a confusion here, organic wines are just wines made from
organically grown grapes. Once those grapes are harvested, you can do
anything you want, within the area regulations, including acidify,
chaptalise, add sulphites, use reverse osmosis, add yeast cultures.
And yes, most organically grown wines contain added sulphites.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

>The reasons are plentiful, Charles:

Well, if you actually read that article, it shows that even Sanford disdains
"organic" wines, with no added sulfites. Coturri Zin, anyone?

Personally, if pesticides are your concern, I'd pay less attention to wines
labeled "organic" and take a look at the fine makers who using biodynamie.
Which I think is part crazy, but lots of good makers make good wine.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 06 Apr 2004 15:36:07 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>The reasons are plentiful, Charles:
>
>Well, if you actually read that article, it shows that even Sanford disdains
>"organic" wines, with no added sulfites. Coturri Zin, anyone?
>
>Personally, if pesticides are your concern, I'd pay less attention to wines
>labeled "organic" and take a look at the fine makers who using biodynamie.
>Which I think is part crazy, but lots of good makers make good wine.

Agreed Dale.

But much of what these winemakers practice boils down to using common
sense. The mystical mumbojumbo gives it all a colourful folky feeling,
but in the end it all amounts to : does the winemaker really care
about the wine he is making and the people who will drink it?

The organic label alone is no guarantee of quality, I have tested
organic wines that range from the atrociously undrinkable to sublime.
The only guarantee is that the winemaker is following some rules;
these may have nothing to do with making good wine... some of these
pesticide-free wines may kill you...

In the biodynamic crowd, like I said, I dislike the weird
pseudo-science about it, but almost all biodynamic growers seem driven
by a desire to make truly great wine.

Our occasional AFW contributor Francis Boulard has some of his
Champagne vineyards undergoing conversion to biodynamics. Not
surprisingly, ALL his vineyards make good wine... ;-)

In Champagne, which as we all know always has bubbles, the same goes
for Selosse, De Sousa and I think even Jerome Prevost.

Alsace seems to also be a fertile ground for biodynamics (Ostertag,
Kreydenweiss, Frick, Deiss, Ostertag, Ginglinger, Weinbach, Meyer,
Baur).

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

In article >, Mike Tommasi
> writes:

>In the biodynamic crowd, like I said, I dislike the weird
>pseudo-science about it, but almost all biodynamic growers seem driven
>by a desire to make truly great wine.
>

Yes - my theory is that while some of the more bizarre parts might not really
help, they don't hurt, and the immense amount of effort required to do things
biodynamically means that you mostly get only growers who really care about
their products.

Thanks for the Alsace list, here's list I posted last year:

A lot of top European growers
practice some of these methods. While certification ( Demeter & Biodivin are
the big groups, though not every biodynamic producer goes for certification)is
not exactly the same as organic certification, it's pretty close. While I find
some of these practices bizarre, there's no arguing that these producers turn
out a lot of quality wine. I think this list is mostly accurate, though very
incomplete:

Austria:
Nikolaihof

France
Burgundy: Leroy, Lafon, Brocard
Alsace: Deiss, Zind Humbrecht ,Frick , Ostertag, Weinbach
Loi Coulée de Serrant, Huet, Breton (both?), Clos Roche Blanche,
Rhône: Chapoutier
Provence : Sainte-Anne

USA : Frey

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 06 Apr 2004 16:33:54 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

> I think this list is mostly accurate, though very
>incomplete:

Mine is bigger ;-)))
My list includes winemakers that practice biodynamics on at least part
of their wines. Some are not certified (yet). Some I have not had time
to check yet.

Australia Robinvale
Chile Antiyal
Alsace Domaine Marcel Deiss
Alsace Domaine Ostertag
Alsace Ginglinger
Alsace Francois Baur
Alsace Domaine Weinbach
Alsace Eugene Meyer
Alsace Kreydenweiss
Alsace Pierre Frick
Alsace Zind Humbrecht
Bordeaux Côte de Bourg Chteau Falfas
Bordeaux Saint Emilion Chateau la Tour Figeac
Bourgogne Chablis Jm Brocard
Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine de la Romanee Conti
Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Dominique et Catherine Derain
Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Thierry Guyot
Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Jean-Claude Rateau
Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Domaine Leflaive
Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine Leroy
Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Trapet
Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine des Comtes Lafon
Bourgogne Macon Pierre Morey
Champagne Champagne Raymond Boulard
Champagne Jean-Pierre Fleury
Champagne Alain Reaut
Champagne Erick de Sousa
Champagne Erik Schrieber
Champagne Francoise Bedel
Champagne Domaine David Leclapart
Champagne Champagne Jacques Selosse
Loire Bonnezeaux Domaine de la Sansonniere
Loire Bourgueil Chinon Domaine Breton
Loire Fiefs Vendeens Domaine Saint Nicholas
Loire Savennieres Coulée de Serrant
Loire Touraine Clos Roche Blanche
Loire Touraine Clos de Chateau Gaillard
Loire Touraine Domaine de la Garreliere
Loire Vouvray Domaine Huet
Loire Vouvray Domaine la Saboterie
Provence Corse Baux de Provence Chateau Romanin
Rhône Chateauneuf du Pape Domaine de Marcoux
Rhône Chateauneuf du Pape Domaine Pierre André
Rhône Gigondas Vacqueyras Montirius
Rhône Hermitage St Joseph Chapoutier
Alto Adige Nusserhof
Alto Adige Kuenhof
Friuli Josko Gravner
Friuli La Castellada
Friuli Radikon
Friuli Ronchi di Cialla
Friuli Vadopivec
Friuli Zidarich
Piemonte Cascina degli Ulivi
Piemonte Nuova Cappelletta
Piemonte Trinchero
Sicilia Do Zenner
Sicilia Gulfi Ramada
Toscana Massavecchia
Toscana Brunello Case Basse
Veneto Castello di Lispida
New Zealand Gisborne Millton
Slovenia Andrej in Valter Mlecnik
USA Bonterra
USA Ceago
USA Frey


Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Size does Matter!!! :-)
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On 06 Apr 2004 16:33:54 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
> > I think this list is mostly accurate, though very
> >incomplete:
>
> Mine is bigger ;-)))
> My list includes winemakers that practice biodynamics on at least part
> of their wines. Some are not certified (yet). Some I have not had time
> to check yet.
>
> Australia Robinvale
> Chile Antiyal
> Alsace Domaine Marcel Deiss
> Alsace Domaine Ostertag
> Alsace Ginglinger
> Alsace Francois Baur
> Alsace Domaine Weinbach
> Alsace Eugene Meyer
> Alsace Kreydenweiss
> Alsace Pierre Frick
> Alsace Zind Humbrecht
> Bordeaux Côte de Bourg Chteau Falfas
> Bordeaux Saint Emilion Chateau la Tour Figeac
> Bourgogne Chablis Jm Brocard
> Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine de la Romanee Conti
> Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Dominique et Catherine Derain
> Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Thierry Guyot
> Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Jean-Claude Rateau
> Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Domaine Leflaive
> Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine Leroy
> Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Trapet
> Bourgogne Côte de Nuits Domaine des Comtes Lafon
> Bourgogne Macon Pierre Morey
> Champagne Champagne Raymond Boulard
> Champagne Jean-Pierre Fleury
> Champagne Alain Reaut
> Champagne Erick de Sousa
> Champagne Erik Schrieber
> Champagne Francoise Bedel
> Champagne Domaine David Leclapart
> Champagne Champagne Jacques Selosse
> Loire Bonnezeaux Domaine de la Sansonniere
> Loire Bourgueil Chinon Domaine Breton
> Loire Fiefs Vendeens Domaine Saint Nicholas
> Loire Savennieres Coulée de Serrant
> Loire Touraine Clos Roche Blanche
> Loire Touraine Clos de Chateau Gaillard
> Loire Touraine Domaine de la Garreliere
> Loire Vouvray Domaine Huet
> Loire Vouvray Domaine la Saboterie
> Provence Corse Baux de Provence Chateau Romanin
> Rhône Chateauneuf du Pape Domaine de Marcoux
> Rhône Chateauneuf du Pape Domaine Pierre André
> Rhône Gigondas Vacqueyras Montirius
> Rhône Hermitage St Joseph Chapoutier
> Alto Adige Nusserhof
> Alto Adige Kuenhof
> Friuli Josko Gravner
> Friuli La Castellada
> Friuli Radikon
> Friuli Ronchi di Cialla
> Friuli Vadopivec
> Friuli Zidarich
> Piemonte Cascina degli Ulivi
> Piemonte Nuova Cappelletta
> Piemonte Trinchero
> Sicilia Do Zenner
> Sicilia Gulfi Ramada
> Toscana Massavecchia
> Toscana Brunello Case Basse
> Veneto Castello di Lispida
> New Zealand Gisborne Millton
> Slovenia Andrej in Valter Mlecnik
> USA Bonterra
> USA Ceago
> USA Frey
>
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

In article >, Mike Tommasi
> writes:

>
>Mine is bigger ;-)))

thanks for the great list, I've saved!

Pretty impressive list. Almost every producer that I know on the list I'd
consider near the top of the hierarchy for their region (DRC,Weinbach,Zind
Humbrecht, Leroy,Domaine Leflaive, Lafon, Huet, Coulée de Serrant, Chapoutier)
or a real "up & comer" (Frick, Brocard, Boulard, Leclapart, Selosse, Clos Roche
Blanche). In fact, though there are some I don't know, Francois Baur
is the only one on whole list who I have a negative impression of.



Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
>
> There is a confusion here, organic wines are just wines made from
> organically grown grapes. Once those grapes are harvested, you can do
> anything you want, within the area regulations, including acidify,
> chaptalise, add sulphites, use reverse osmosis, add yeast cultures.
> And yes, most organically grown wines contain added sulphites.
>
> Mike
>
Mike, you should know that the rules on this vary from continent to
continent; further, the common useage of the term "organic wine" does
not necessarily match regulations and also varies with location. It's
my understanding of EU regulations that there is officially no such
thing as "organic wine" because only unprocessed produce can be
"organic". So grapes can be organic but wine can't under the law.
Wine made from organically grown grapes can state that fact on the
label and label may also carry a certification from one of several
organic organizations. As you say, in Europe these wines are often
referred to as "organic" by the buying public.

The rules in the US are always shifting so I may be giving outdated
information but at least in the past, the rules (as they often are)
are different. Here, there *is* (or has been, at least) such a thing
as officially "organic wine". This demands not only that the grapes
be grown organically but that no chemicals (sulfites being the most
prominent of these) are allowed in the winemaking process. I'd say
it's clear from the original poster's comments about sulfites that it
is in this sense that he means "organic". As in Europe, wines that
are made conventionally (i.e., with sulfites) but use organically
grown grapes are allowed to note that fact on the label but cannot
call themselves "organic wine".

- Mark W.

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Mike Tommasi
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Mine is bigger ;-)))
>
> thanks for the great list, I've saved!
>
> Pretty impressive list. Almost every producer that I know on the list I'd
> consider near the top of the hierarchy for their region (DRC,Weinbach,Zind
> Humbrecht, Leroy,Domaine Leflaive, Lafon, Huet, Coulée de Serrant,
Chapoutier)
> or a real "up & comer" (Frick, Brocard, Boulard, Leclapart, Selosse, Clos
Roche
> Blanche). In fact, though there are some I don't know, Francois Baur
> is the only one on whole list who I have a negative impression of.
>
One to add to the list.... Benziger is producing a biodynamic Cab Sauv.
I tried a barrel sample last year & it was pretty impressive. Mike Benziger
came to the class I was attending... He definitely qualifies as one who
cares about his product, He's a little 'oh wow man'.... But if he cares
about the enviornment & producing good vino....Power to him.

Mathew

On 6 Apr 2004 10:42:25 -0700, (Mark Willstatter)
wrote:

>Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
>>
>> There is a confusion here, organic wines are just wines made from
>> organically grown grapes. Once those grapes are harvested, you can do
>> anything you want, within the area regulations, including acidify,
>> chaptalise, add sulphites, use reverse osmosis, add yeast cultures.
>> And yes, most organically grown wines contain added sulphites.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>Mike, you should know that the rules on this vary from continent to
>continent; further, the common useage of the term "organic wine" does
>not necessarily match regulations and also varies with location.

Point noted Mark, thanks.

Precisely due to these differences, it is hard to compare organically
griwn wine or any produce that claims to be organically grown. Even
here in Europe, different countries have very different standards, yet
all may bear the AB label. This is, to say the least, confusing to the
consumer.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On 06 Apr 2004 17:32:17 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>In article >, Mike Tommasi
> writes:
>
>>
>>Mine is bigger ;-)))
>
>thanks for the great list, I've saved!
>
>Pretty impressive list. Almost every producer that I know on the list I'd
>consider near the top of the hierarchy for their region (DRC,Weinbach,Zind
>Humbrecht, Leroy,Domaine Leflaive, Lafon, Huet, Coulée de Serrant, Chapoutier)
>or a real "up & comer" (Frick, Brocard, Boulard, Leclapart, Selosse, Clos Roche
>Blanche). In fact, though there are some I don't know, Francois Baur
>is the only one on whole list who I have a negative impression of.

I might add that there are many other biodynamic producers, but I only
refer to those that are also making interesting wines...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message >...
> "AyTee" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Nearly everyting you eat or drink has sulfites, either naturally
> > occurring, added, or both (most wine has both). Besides, sulfites are
> > not nearly as bad as what may get into the wine if SO2 is not used.
>
> Finally! A voice of reason.

This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
life of the product!
http://wine.about.com/library/encyc/bl_sulfite.htm

I guess what I'm looking for is chemical free food:
http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com/sulfites.html

On 06 Apr 2004 16:33:54 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

] In article >, Mike Tommasi
] > writes:
]
] >In the biodynamic crowd, like I said, I dislike the weird
] >pseudo-science about it, but almost all biodynamic growers seem driven
] >by a desire to make truly great wine.
] >
]
] Yes - my theory is that while some of the more bizarre parts might not really
] help, they don't hurt, and the immense amount of effort required to do things
] biodynamically means that you mostly get only growers who really care about
] their products.
]
[snip]

Hi Dale,

Actually just had dinner with a organic (bio not biodynamic) farmer -- although
veg not grapes. We had a conversation about biodynamics, his opinion was
that some of the more constraining practices _can_ hurt: his example was
having to prune when the weather is optimal, not the phase of the moon.

There are certainly some biodynamic farmers making some great wine, though
as has been pointed out it is the grapes and not the wine that is biodynamic.

Ah, anthroposophy... reminds me of my wasted youth!

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:43:15 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
took the time to tell us :

>On 06 Apr 2004 16:33:54 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
>wrote:
>
>> I think this list is mostly accurate, though very
>>incomplete:
>
>Mine is bigger ;-)))
>My list includes winemakers that practice biodynamics on at least part
>of their wines. Some are not certified (yet). Some I have not had time
>to check yet.
>
>Australia Robinvale
<snip>

Mike, their are many certified organic wine makers in Oz now. Did a
recent in store promo with 7 different organic wines. As I had
previously discovered at various wine shows, whilst there were many
'drinkable' wines, none I found 'sang' to me. Until the night of the
tasting. Found a luscious drop from Bendigo (Victoria) by a winery
named "Avonmore"...... plums and strawberry.... and was by far the hit
of the night.

There seems to be 2 branches to the trend. One that retain some form
of the dreaded 220.... and the NO Preservative types. The latter I am
still unimpressed by, and worry about stocking them from a retail
perspective due to questionable longevity. However, simple organic
wines are coming along well.

Regards
Swooper

>
> This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
> impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
> life of the product!

that would be the correct impression that you are under.



> http://wine.about.com/library/encyc/bl_sulfite.htm
>
> I guess what I'm looking for is chemical free food:
> http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com/sulfites.html

Salut/Hi Matthew,

le/on 6 Apr 2004 14:44:35 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
>impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
>life of the product!

You can't REALLY think about wine as if it were jello, you know. And no.
that's not exactly the reason they add sulphites, but go on.

>I guess what I'm looking for is chemical free food:

In this context, what are chemicals?

Salt? Sugar? Yeast? Lemon juice? Vitamin C? Citric or Tartaric acids? I'm
not being silly, but it seems to me that you may be making a set of entirely
false assumptions.

Sulphites occur naturally in the fermentation process. We've a whole thread
devoted to that at the moment. Almost since wine making began, wine makers
have either burnt sulphur "candles" in their barrels, or injected them with
SO" or washed them with potassium metabisulphite AKA camden tablets, to kill
off unwanted yeasts and bacteria and to prevent the wine from oxidising. Of
course you have every right to seek to find wines where winemakers _don't_
use sulphites in one form or another, but you won't find a truly sulphite
free wine. Furthermore, a wine made without any addition of sulphites is
likely to be very unstable and could well become very unpleasant.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
> > impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
> > life of the product!
>
> that would be the correct impression that you are under.
There are many producers that do NSA wines (No sulphites added). I don't
know who fits that bill outside my local area.... but here in BC Summerhill
is NSA.

I'm a little bit confused here with this discussion on sulfites. Sulfites
have little to do with Organic Wine?

Sulfites are a natural substance and have been used for ages. Sure there
are negative side effects from over (and under) use and this is why there
are regulations for their use.

Shouldn't the real discussion over Organic Wines focus on the residual
chemicals in the wines left by the deadly pesticides generously used during
the growing season, cleaning agents and other chemicals used during wine
making?

- It is common knowledge that certain pesticides used near the time of
harvest impede fermentation
- I suspect that headaches brought on by drinking wine are caused by several
factros: sulfites, histamines and by other residual chemicals in the wine

Joe

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:NUIcc.5149$mn3.2622@clgrps13...
>
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >
> > > This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
> > > impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
> > > life of the product!
> >
> > that would be the correct impression that you are under.
> There are many producers that do NSA wines (No sulphites added). I
don't
> know who fits that bill outside my local area.... but here in BC
Summerhill
> is NSA.
>
>

Joe Ae wrote:

> - I suspect that headaches brought on by drinking wine are caused by several
> factros: sulfites, histamines and by other residual chemicals in the wine

Don't forget over-consumption on that list!

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

In article >, Ian Hoare
> writes:

> Furthermore, a wine made without any addition of sulphites is
>likely to be very unstable and could well become very unpleasant.

Indeed. A couple observations from a non-scientist:

Don't want sulphur added? Be prepared for some very unpleasant surprises.
Anyone here ever had a Coturri zin (or other wine, though the zins are what
I've seen) say more than a year after release?

With the possible exception of possibly a few very heavily sulfured wines (JJ
Prüm comes to mind), there's probably more sulfites in a handful of dried fruit
than a glass of wine.

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 07 Apr 2004 14:10:28 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>In article >, Ian Hoare
> writes:
>
>> Furthermore, a wine made without any addition of sulphites is
>>likely to be very unstable and could well become very unpleasant.
>
>Indeed. A couple observations from a non-scientist:
>
>Don't want sulphur added? Be prepared for some very unpleasant surprises.
>Anyone here ever had a Coturri zin (or other wine, though the zins are what
>I've seen) say more than a year after release?
>
>With the possible exception of possibly a few very heavily sulfured wines (JJ
>Prüm comes to mind), there's probably more sulfites in a handful of dried fruit
>than a glass of wine.

Yes, true.

However at a recent visit to Chateau Ste Anne, I was made to taste
(blind) two glasses of the same wine, one with normal sulphur added,
and one with none. The difference was quite remarkable, the sulphur
seemed to close the wine.

If you are willing to treat these wines the way you would treat a
boittle of milk, and this is possible either if you live close to the
winery or if the whole distribution chain takes the special
precautions needed, then it is worth trying. Lavinia in Paris has a
special stock of non-sulphur wines that are guaranteed to have been
handled properly. Stuff like Dard et Ribo. Of course, you also need a
proper cellar...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"St. Matthew" > wrote in message
om...
> "Vincent Vega" > wrote in message
>...
> > "AyTee" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Nearly everyting you eat or drink has sulfites, either naturally
> > > occurring, added, or both (most wine has both). Besides, sulfites are
> > > not nearly as bad as what may get into the wine if SO2 is not used.
> >
> > Finally! A voice of reason.
>
> This is all very interesting (thanks, guys!), but I am under the
> impression the manufacturers add sulfites in order to extend the shelf
> life of the product!
> http://wine.about.com/library/encyc/bl_sulfite.htm
>
> I guess what I'm looking for is chemical free food:
> http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com/sulfites.html

It is not a mater of extending the shelf life like putting preservatives in
milk. It is a matter of protecting it so it can age. If all you want is
young wine, then you can get by without sulfites. But if you want to let
the wine reach the glory of real maturity of over 3 years old, then you are
not going to do it without sulfites. That is, unless you don't mind flat
tasting, oxidized wine.

Ray

> However at a recent visit to Chateau Ste Anne, I was made to taste
> (blind) two glasses of the same wine, one with normal sulphur added,
> and one with none. The difference was quite remarkable, the sulphur
> seemed to close the wine.

What level or ppm of sulfites was in the wine? What was the PH? How long
was the sulfite added prior to tasting? How long was the sulfite added
prior to botteling? What was the level of FREE SO2?

If you dont know the answer to these questions than your little
experimentation was nothing more tha a meanlingless utterance.

Most people can detect SO2 around 50-100ppm,, far more than is needed in
most wines. Some can detect the wine in lower levels. SO2 has been known
to bind the nose of wine after addition, with time,, the wine opens up
again. The wine with no sulfites may taste better now,, but most likely
that would change.

Yet another route, but points back to the same place:

______________________________________

From: "Vincent Vega" >
Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
References: >
>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<143870pvppnnmidmts2p4cfe6 >
Subject: Organic Wine Now
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However at a recent visit to Chateau Ste Anne, I was made to taste
(blind) two glasses of the same wine, one with normal sulphur added, and
one with none. The difference was quite remarkable, the sulphur seemed
to close the wine.
What level or ppm of sulfites was in the wine? What was the PH? How long
was the sulfite added prior to tasting? How long was the sulfite added
prior to botteling? What was the level of FREE SO2?
If you dont know the answer to these questions than your little
experimentation was nothing more tha a meanlingless utterance.
Most people can detect SO2 around 50-100ppm,, far more than is needed in
most wines. Some can detect the wine in lower levels. SO2 has been known
to bind the nose of wine after addition, with time,, the wine opens up
again. The wine with no sulfites may taste better now,, but most likely
that would change.

______________________________________

<big snip>Of
>course you have every right to seek to find wines where winemakers _don't_
>use sulphites in one form or another, but you won't find a truly sulphite
>free wine. Furthermore, a wine made without any addition of sulphites is
>likely to be very unstable and could well become very unpleasant.
>--

FWIW, Tony Coturri of Coturri Wines makes his wines without adding sulphites
and labels it as "no added sulphites". I recently asked him ablut the
stability issue and he produced four bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon from his
library from various vintages in the 80's and all were quite tasty. Certainly
aging as one would expect but not unpleasant.
Bi!!

>Don't want sulphur added? Be prepared for some very unpleasant surprises.
>Anyone here ever had a Coturri zin (or other wine, though the zins are what
>I've seen) say more than a year after release?

See previous post regarding Coturri Cabs but I have had the Zins and to be
honest, I'm not a big fan of their Zins even when they're new! But I have had
them at 5-6 years old and they were still stable if not big rustic and sweet.
I have a bottle of 1994 Zin that I would be happy to send you if you promise to
post one of your reviews. If the wine is objectionable, I'll send you a
replacement from my cellar of something that you're sure to enjoy. I have no
affiliation with Coturri (or any other wine maker or retailer for that matter).

Bi!!

right on Charles!

I have often wondered if strong alcohol level (>13%) may also be a factor?

Joe

"Charles H" > wrote in message
...
> Joe Ae wrote:
>
> > - I suspect that headaches brought on by drinking wine are caused by
several
> > factros: sulfites, histamines and by other residual chemicals in the
wine
>
> Don't forget over-consumption on that list!
>
> --
> charles
>
> "Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
> forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
> - W.C. Fields

"Joe Ae" > wrote in message m>...
> I'm a little bit confused here with this discussion on sulfites. Sulfites
> have little to do with Organic Wine? <snip>

> Shouldn't the real discussion over Organic Wines focus on the residual
> chemicals in the wines left by the deadly pesticides generously used during
> the growing season, cleaning agents and other chemicals used during wine
> making?

Yes, yes, I'm learning this is correct.

In article >, (RV
WRLee) writes:

>See previous post regarding Coturri Cabs but I have had the Zins and to be
>honest, I'm not a big fan of their Zins even when they're new! But I have
>had
>them at 5-6 years old and they were still stable if not big rustic and sweet.
>
>I have a bottle of 1994 Zin that I would be happy to send you if you promise
>to
>post one of your reviews. If the wine is objectionable, I'll send you a
>replacement from my cellar of something that you're sure to enjoy

Here's my experience with Coturri (all from others' cellars, those sweet
raisiny almost-portish Zins were never my fave, never bought):
1 bottle of Zin ('95?)that was totally undrinkable, something horribly funky
about it.
2 or 3 bottles of Zin (all from '90s)that ranged from having a bit of VA to
being liable to send a sniffer to a VA hospital.

2 bottles of Coturri cab ('85 Alexander Valley Miller Vineyard and '90 Coturri
Sonoma County Remich Ridge Vineyard ) that each showed minor VA, and came in
dead last in their respective flights at a '85/'90 showdown (against modest
opponents like Sequoia Ridge and Simi Reserve).

That being said, bring it on! Send me an email (just drop the damnspam) , I'll
send you my address along with a list of potential trade wines (I'll pick
something with some equivalent controversy). We have to be fair re this. I
promise to give it a fair shot. Deal is you have to promise to post on wine I
send, too.

I started to say we should taste wines blind, but I don't think I own a wine
that could be mistaken for a Coturri Zin under any circumstances. But I will
try to separate my stylistic preferences from any comments on actual technical
flaws.

Thanks!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply