Hey there,

I live in England, UK. There're very few native English wines, mostly
because the climate is so poor for the grapes. We had a pop at making our
own with the fruit from the vine that's strangling half our garden - failed
miserably, but was... interesting.

I'm a red wine person, myself. No particular reason; I expect whites could
grow on me equally if I gave them enough time...

Recently remembered an incident about a year ago where I went over to the
states to stay with a family of American friends. They put on a gorgeous
dinner one night, with one problem..

They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.

Ick...

I can't remember what it was now, but I do recall it was a decent enough
wine that should not have tasted like that. :-S It wasn't corked, because I
tried it again the next day (after it had been sat at room temperature
overnight) and it was absolutely fine.

Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it - or
they just didn't know any better.

But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
difference?

Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
on this board - how do you treat a red?

I'd really appreciate any feedback on this,

Thank y'all
Raven

Silent Raven wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> I live in England, UK. There're very few native English wines, mostly
> because the climate is so poor for the grapes. We had a pop at making our
> own with the fruit from the vine that's strangling half our garden - failed
> miserably, but was... interesting.
>
> I'm a red wine person, myself. No particular reason; I expect whites could
> grow on me equally if I gave them enough time...
>
> Recently remembered an incident about a year ago where I went over to the
> states to stay with a family of American friends. They put on a gorgeous
> dinner one night, with one problem..
>
> They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.
>
> Ick...
>
> I can't remember what it was now, but I do recall it was a decent enough
> wine that should not have tasted like that. :-S It wasn't corked, because I
> tried it again the next day (after it had been sat at room temperature
> overnight) and it was absolutely fine.
>
> Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
> didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it - or
> they just didn't know any better.
>
> But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
> difference?
>
> Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
> wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
> on this board - how do you treat a red?
>
> I'd really appreciate any feedback on this,
>
> Thank y'all
> Raven
>
>

No, this is not a cultural difference. One of your earlier conclusions
is more likely correct.

Red wine is stored in my cellar at 51-55F. I remove and let stand for about
30 min to hour. Serving temp about 65-70 F

Hope that answers your question.
"Silent Raven" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hey there,
>
> I live in England, UK. There're very few native English wines, mostly
> because the climate is so poor for the grapes. We had a pop at making our
> own with the fruit from the vine that's strangling half our garden -
failed
> miserably, but was... interesting.
>
> I'm a red wine person, myself. No particular reason; I expect whites could
> grow on me equally if I gave them enough time...
>
> Recently remembered an incident about a year ago where I went over to the
> states to stay with a family of American friends. They put on a gorgeous
> dinner one night, with one problem..
>
> They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.
>
> Ick...
>
> I can't remember what it was now, but I do recall it was a decent enough
> wine that should not have tasted like that. :-S It wasn't corked, because
I
> tried it again the next day (after it had been sat at room temperature
> overnight) and it was absolutely fine.
>
> Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
> didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it -
or
> they just didn't know any better.
>
> But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
> difference?
>
> Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
> wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
> on this board - how do you treat a red?
>
> I'd really appreciate any feedback on this,
>
> Thank y'all
> Raven
>
>

"Silent Raven" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
> didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it -
or
> they just didn't know any better.
>

Both of these are the correct conclusions.

pavane

FYI, I've noticed a big difference in what is considered "room temperature"
between the U.S. and the U.K.

Here in the states, we think of "room temp" as about 68-72 (depending on where
you live); if the bottle of red is actually at 72 degrees at serving time, then
a short stop in the fridge isn't necessarily a bad idea; I tend to prefer my
reds at about 65 degrees or so ... which, coincidentally, I find to be the
average room temp in my limited experience in the U.K.

Just my opinion, tho.

Marc
Marc Goldstone
Paramedic and Attorney Extraordinaire (Both. Really. Just ask my mom!)
"I don't have to chase ambulances ... I get to ride in them!"
"Sure, I may be in the service of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial."

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:24:17 +0100, "Silent Raven" =
vens.com> said:

[]
] They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.
]=20
] Ick...
]=20
] I can't remember what it was now, but I do recall it was a decent enough
] wine that should not have tasted like that. :-S It wasn't corked, because=
I
] tried it again the next day (after it had been sat at room temperature
] overnight) and it was absolutely fine.
]=20
] Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
] didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it -=
or
] they just didn't know any better.
]=20
] But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
] difference?
]=20
] Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
] wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
] on this board - how do you treat a red?
]=20
[]

Raven (or is it "Kim?")

I'll swim against the stream, since I already did in the other thread. I t=
hink
you're simply misinformed. Others may disagree, but it is certainly not "w=
rong" IMHO
to serve some red wines at cellar temperatures. Too cold is not so nice, b=
ut
without knowing what the wine in question was it's impossible to say whether
it was a wrong choice or not. Although your reaction indicates perhaps it =
was!

The french have a word for this: vin frapp=E9. I was served an excellent R=
egni=E9 in
an excellent Paris bistrot not a week ago, frapp=E9. Some wines react very=
badly
to this treatment, (truly "ick" as you say), others like many cabernet fran=
c based=20
from the Loire valley (but not all) do nicely. Don't try it with claret, =
though.

As an american who has lived in the US for various long periods, I must say=
that
the practice of serving red wine cold is not widespread domestically.

-E


--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

The US is made up of such a wide variety of people from different
backgrounds, that you usually can find people who follow the traditions
of nearly any other country. Most people who are interested in fine
wines here would serve a full red such as a Bordeaux or Burgundy
somewhat under 70 F, but not chilled to below about 60 F. Many people
keep room temperature at 72 to 76 F, so that may be a bit high for some
reds. If the red is properly stored in a cool place, the best thing to
do is to bring it into the dining room and allow it to warm up a few
minutes before serving - experience will guide you as to how long to
wait. Some very light reds, such as the lesser Beaujolais ones, may
benefit from a bit of chilling in the eyes of some. If a wine is young
and loaded with tannin, chilling can make it seem especially astringent.

"Silent Raven" > wrote in message
.. .

>
> But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
> difference?
>
> Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
> wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
> on this board - how do you treat a red?

Not a cultural thing here in Canada. I do know a few folk who think 'room
temp' for reds was a concept developed before centeal heating. The people
in question tend to chill their reds slightly before serving ( not my
prefference). At the risk of starting another great debate, I tend to feel
that most whites are served far too cold. Modern refrigeration does nothing
for the apreciation of a good Sancerre or Chablis... just my opinion.

Mathew

"Silent Raven" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hey there,
>
> ... other countries)
> on this board - how do you treat a red?
>
> I'd really appreciate any feedback on this,
>
Around here in Norway there is a tendency to serve reds too warm, even in
some restaurants, up to 70-72F. I use to go for about 61-62F which in
winter means transferring bottles from cellar to window sill, in summer at
the country house some times cooling them in a bucket of water from the
well.
Anders

2 hours in the fridge is probably more than any red should face, but frankly as
you said in previous thread this was Blossom Hill Merlot it probably didn't
make it any worse.

I certainly don't think improper overchilling of reds is a major American
problem. If anything (as others noted) the problem is too many folks with
72-74°F houses serving at room temp. And serving whites straight from the
38-40° fridge. My personal tendency is to serve sparkling wines at close to
fridge temps, lighter whites a bit warmer, bigger whites and light-bodied red
in mid-upper 50s, medium reds in low 60s, and big reds in 65-68° range. That
being said, those are guesses, I gave away the silly wine thermometer I was
given by a well-meaning friend.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Silent Raven wrote:

> Recently remembered an incident about a year ago where I went over to the
> states to stay with a family of American friends. They put on a gorgeous
> dinner one night, with one problem..
>
> They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.

Sounds like they didn't quite know better, but I often give
red a short stay in the refrigerator if the wine has been
sitting at a 'warmer' room temperature; I aim to serve most
reds around 63F-65F myself with the expectation that the wine
will warm slightly after pouring into the glass to something
a couple of degrees warmer.

I went to a dinner where the host opened a bottle of red wine,
they're not really wine-savvy and I noticed that the wine was
kept in a small rack on *top* of their refrigerator in home that's
not air-conditioned in the (warm California) summer. It was
not a surprise when it was strongly cooked.

Dana

"CigarLawyer" > wrote in message
...
> FYI, I've noticed a big difference in what is considered "room
temperature"
> between the U.S. and the U.K.
>
> Here in the states, we think of "room temp" as about 68-72 (depending on
where
> you live); if the bottle of red is actually at 72 degrees at serving time,
then
> a short stop in the fridge isn't necessarily a bad idea; I tend to prefer
my
> reds at about 65 degrees or so ... which, coincidentally, I find to be the
> average room temp in my limited experience in the U.K.

I think 65 degrees F is just right for reds, especially those with a goodly
alcohol concentration. 72 is definitely high, way to high for, for
instance, my Syrah, with 16.7% alc. Even my Cabs, which are under 14%, are
maxed out at 72 degrees F. IT's not unusual for me to stick reds in the
fridge during the summer just to get the bottles to between 60 and 70
degrees, since the wines spend time at ambient when they come up from the
winery.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

>
> Just my opinion, tho.
>
> Marc
> Marc Goldstone
> Paramedic and Attorney Extraordinaire (Both. Really. Just ask my mom!)
> "I don't have to chase ambulances ... I get to ride in them!"
> "Sure, I may be in the service of Satan, but my duties are largely
ceremonial."

Emery Davis hit on something perhaps by mentioning a Beaujolais, Regnié.
It's long been appreciated internationally that some light reds take well to
a slight chill. (Not hours in a refrigerator, but cooler possibly than
cellar or recently-cellared temperature, certainly cooler than room
temperature.)

This was a topic of some exasperation for people in the US who knew wines in
the 1970s because they would find a good Beaujolais on a restaurant list,
find that it was at room temperature, ask for it to be cooled down, and
sometimes get a shocked dogmatic response from the (wine-illiterate) waiter
who, if he was pompous, would usually ask the gentleman diner "Chill a red
wine, sir? The lady will not be impressed!" and knowledgeable wine drinkers
had to work past this obstacle. Matt Kramer in Portland recorded glorious
anecdotes of his encounters with wine-pretentious servers in those days.

Those particular diners in the "Silent Raven" account were doing something
eccentric and probably were just inexperienced, as once were we all, let us
not forget.

Max



"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:24:17 +0100, "Silent Raven"
> said:

[]
] They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.
]
] Ick...
....
] But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
] difference?
]
] Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
] wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
] on this board - how do you treat a red?
]
[]

....
The french have a word for this: vin frappé. I was served an excellent
Regnié in
an excellent Paris bistrot not a week ago, frappé. Some wines react very
badly
to this treatment, (truly "ick" as you say), others like many cabernet franc
based
from the Loire valley (but not all) do nicely. Don't try it with claret,
though.

As an american who has lived in the US for various long periods, I must say
that
the practice of serving red wine cold is not widespread domestically.

-E

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:MKF9c.27474$Ct5.309@edtnps89...
>
> At the risk of starting another great debate, I tend to feel
> that most whites are served far too cold. Modern refrigeration does
nothing
> for the apreciation of a good Sancerre or Chablis... just my opinion.
>
> Mathew
>
Start of debate (just my opinion):

10% of white wine is served too cold, 20% served too warm.
4% of red wine is served too cold, 40% of red wine served too warm.

Whereas low temp can easily be corrected by waiting a few minutes and
warming the glass by hand, the reverse process is much more time-consuming.

Martin

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> 2 hours in the fridge is probably more than any red should face, but
frankly as
> you said in previous thread this was Blossom Hill Merlot it probably
didn't
> make it any worse.
>
> I certainly don't think improper overchilling of reds is a major American
> problem. If anything (as others noted) the problem is too many folks with
> 72-74°F houses serving at room temp. And serving whites straight from the
> 38-40° fridge. My personal tendency is to serve sparkling wines at close
to
> fridge temps, lighter whites a bit warmer, bigger whites and light-bodied
red
> in mid-upper 50s, medium reds in low 60s, and big reds in 65-68° range.
That
> being said, those are guesses, I gave away the silly wine thermometer I
was
> given by a well-meaning friend.
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

My biggest gripe about restaraunts is that they, like many, take the term
"room temperature" literally and yank a bottle of red wine right off a
shelf,
even if it's near or in the kitchen and thus maybe over 80 deg F, and serve
it to the patron. Whites seem to be served correctly, or maybe too cold
but they warm up as they sit at the table. I figure if I have to wait for
coffee to cool before I drink it, I can wait for white wine to warm up.

Much to the surprise of many waiters, servers and table-hops, I actually
request my bottles of red wine immersed in ice water when they are
delivered to the table. 15-20 minutes that way and the entire bottle is
about right.

Clint

In article >,
says...
>
>Hey there,
>
>I live in England, UK. There're very few native English wines, mostly
>because the climate is so poor for the grapes. We had a pop at making our
>own with the fruit from the vine that's strangling half our garden - failed
>miserably, but was... interesting.
>
>I'm a red wine person, myself. No particular reason; I expect whites could
>grow on me equally if I gave them enough time...
>
>Recently remembered an incident about a year ago where I went over to the
>states to stay with a family of American friends. They put on a gorgeous
>dinner one night, with one problem..
>
>They chilled the red, in the fridge, for two hours before serving.
>
>Ick...
>
>I can't remember what it was now, but I do recall it was a decent enough
>wine that should not have tasted like that. :-S It wasn't corked, because I
>tried it again the next day (after it had been sat at room temperature
>overnight) and it was absolutely fine.
>
>Natch, I didn't say anything at the time; I just assumed that they either
>didn't drink red much - and put it on for me cause they knew I liked it - or
>they just didn't know any better.
>
>But the more I think about it, the more I wonder... Is this a cultural
>difference?
>
>Any brit who can pronounce Sauvignon (sp?) properly won't ever chill red
>wine... But what about ye Americans (or, for that matter, other countries)
>on this board - how do you treat a red?
>
>I'd really appreciate any feedback on this,
>
>Thank y'all
>Raven

Raven, you must be from South England <G>. Actually, in the US it is customary
to serve and drink most reds too warm. Here they assume "room temp" means
about 85 F. Your host may have tried too hard, or just forgotten the wine in
the fridge. OR, he may have assumed that, because it is cooler in the UK,
indoors, that you'd like it that way. Cooling any wine is a precarious
proposition. Too cool, and the bouquet is absent, the taste flacid, and any
character missing. This is true for whites and reds. The temp for each is a
bit different, however. Warming the bowl of a too-cool wine in your hands is
usually better than drinking it too cool. Some wine snobs will argue that you
leave fingerprints, etc. on the glass, but your pleasue is what counts. You
found a situation that is atypical in the US, where whites are usually served
too cool, and reds too warm.

Hunt
>

In article >,
says...
>
>The US is made up of such a wide variety of people from different
>backgrounds, that you usually can find people who follow the traditions
>of nearly any other country. Most people who are interested in fine
>wines here would serve a full red such as a Bordeaux or Burgundy
>somewhat under 70 F, but not chilled to below about 60 F. Many people
>keep room temperature at 72 to 76 F, so that may be a bit high for some
>reds. If the red is properly stored in a cool place, the best thing to
>do is to bring it into the dining room and allow it to warm up a few
>minutes before serving - experience will guide you as to how long to
>wait. Some very light reds, such as the lesser Beaujolais ones, may
>benefit from a bit of chilling in the eyes of some. If a wine is young
>and loaded with tannin, chilling can make it seem especially astringent.
>

Good advice, though I find that serving it too warm has a much greater effect
regarding perceived astringendy.

Hunt

In article >, says...
>
>Emery Davis hit on something perhaps by mentioning a Beaujolais, Regnié.
>It's long been appreciated internationally that some light reds take well to
>a slight chill. (Not hours in a refrigerator, but cooler possibly than
>cellar or recently-cellared temperature, certainly cooler than room
>temperature.)
>
>This was a topic of some exasperation for people in the US who knew wines in
>the 1970s because they would find a good Beaujolais on a restaurant list,
>find that it was at room temperature, ask for it to be cooled down, and
>sometimes get a shocked dogmatic response from the (wine-illiterate) waiter
>who, if he was pompous, would usually ask the gentleman diner "Chill a red
>wine, sir? The lady will not be impressed!" and knowledgeable wine drinkers
>had to work past this obstacle. Matt Kramer in Portland recorded glorious
>anecdotes of his encounters with wine-pretentious servers in those days.
>
>Those particular diners in the "Silent Raven" account were doing something
>eccentric and probably were just inexperienced, as once were we all, let us
>not forget.
>
>Max

[SNIP original from brevity]

Max,

Unfortunately, the 70's still live in many parts of the US. I have had to
ignore the platitudes of the servers on many occasions and direct them to
either leave the white out of the ice, or bring a bucket of it for the red. It
is, after all, my wine now, and my choice. Too bad that they didn't read
Kramer!

Hunt

Hunt wrote:


>
> Raven, you must be from South England <G>. Actually, in the US it is customary
> to serve and drink most reds too warm. Here they assume "room temp" means
> about 85 F. Your host may have tried too hard, or just forgotten the wine in
> the fridge. OR, he may have assumed that, because it is cooler in the UK,
> indoors, that you'd like it that way. Cooling any wine is a precarious
> proposition. Too cool, and the bouquet is absent, the taste flacid, and any
> character missing. This is true for whites and reds. The temp for each is a
> bit different, however. Warming the bowl of a too-cool wine in your hands is
> usually better than drinking it too cool. Some wine snobs will argue that you
> leave fingerprints, etc. on the glass, but your pleasue is what counts. You
> found a situation that is atypical in the US, where whites are usually served
> too cool, and reds too warm.
>
> Hunt
>>
>
Wow, you hit the nail on the head. We are in South Florida and room
temperature is an oxymoron. Virtually every restaurant keeps their red
wines in the open, many in the proximity of the kitchen. Couple this
with the fact that when the restaurant is closed, the air conditioning
is off. When I do order a red wine, I must always insist, to their
consternation, that it be submerged in an ice bucket for 10 minutes.
This upsets most servers and most wine stewards.

We take our red wines to every restaurant that allows this, most do, and
bring them in a wine bag that actually preserves the 62-65 that we prefer.
There are some really good restaurants that we would frequent, but
because they don't allow BYOB and because their wine lists are so-so and
their prices are usurious, we tend to stay away from them.
You can't believe for how many years we have heard from the same
restaurants over and over, that they have the proper refrigeration on
order....Hah!

Oh yes, how many places actually have a proper glass? Some down here
only provide a proper glass with wines costing over a fixed dollar amount.

Yes, we are wine snobs. Life is too short to drink bad wine and listen
to bad music. <g>

burris

burris wrote:

> We take our red wines to every restaurant that allows this, most do, and
> bring them in a wine bag that actually preserves the 62-65 that we prefer.
> ...

When I've taken wine "on the road" in one of those insulated wine bags in really hot
weather, I've found that sticking one of those "wine chiller" sleeves in the bag can
help if the trip's not a quick one. Don't slip it around the bottle unless you want
things _really_ cool, but just having it in the bag seems to help. (It's all a
matter of balance.)

--
Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde