Hello Everyone,
Haven't posted in a while, but was curious about other's thoughts on my
dining experience tonight. I went to "Manny's" in Minneapolis, which is
supposedly one of the top steakhouses in America. I won't dispute that fact
as the steak was very very good. It was their wine selection that I found
to be curious. I chose the 2000 Simi Landslide Cabernet, which seemed
reasonably priced (by resturaunt standards) at $70 or so. What I considered
odd was the amount of fairly nice Bordeaux (not to mention fine Italian and
Southern Rhone) wines were far far to young for drinking in my opinion.
There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older. You got
progressively more choices in 98 and 99, but the great majority of the wines
were 2000 and later. The Simi Landslide was fine and didn't taste too young
IMO, but that wouldn't be the case with the other wines (at least from my
experience). I guess the one that topped it off was the $400 half bottle of
1997 Yquem. I've got a bottle of 1997 Yquem myself that I bought en
primeuer, but for now all I do is look at it from time to time. Can't
imagine paying $400 for a '97 and drinking it now!!! I should say that I
don't spend much time eating out at "fine" resturaunts. Given where I live,
I don't have the time or ambition...besides my cooking isn't that bad!!!

Anyway, is this typical of wine lists at "fine" resturaunt's? I may have
had my hopes up too high after the Wine Spectator article talked about what
a great wine selection at Manny's. The selection was great, just too young
IMO.

Regards,
Dvorak

"Dvorak" in .. .

(By the way Dvorak, a namesake of yours, give or take a diacritical, forsook
the US, or so I hear, in the 1890s at least partly because of the beer. Had
a taste for folk music too.)

>. . .
> There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older.
> . . . I guess the one that topped it off was the $400 half bottle of
> 1997 Yquem.
> . . .
> Anyway, is this typical of wine lists at "fine" resturaunt's?

Yes in the US among younger restaurants anyway, I believe. Not to do
injustice to a complex topic but many factors oppose depth of inventory
especially when the average independent premium restaurant is itself only a
few years old and cannot be expected to support inventory of much greater
duration. Especially, if I may say so, if the market of customers
disinclines to buy the inventory anyway unless instructed by media such as
cited below. The $400 immature Yquem 375ml suggests (though doesn't
conclude) a Trophy Offering, as some diners with money, or expense accounts,
will have heard of that wine if of no others. You sometimes see lists with
mostly 2-3 year old wines (though meant to age longer) and then 10% of the
list is mature famous trophy wines at severe prices. The ideal restaurant
to my taste will have a perceptive eclectic list and will lead diners into
new and insightful and satisfying territrory rather than following the
Magazines, but this requires both a knowledgeable wine mgr, and also senior
management with the vision to support him or her. It certainly does happen
in the US.

I have been happy to find some US restaurants that benefitted not just from
insightful wine management but also from at least a few years' longevity so
as to accumulate depth and variety. Places like the Sardine Factory in
Monterey, CA (at least in its heyday; as late as 2002 I happened to find
mature Dujac Burgundies at below wine-shop prices, _mirabile dictu,_ though
this is not what I mean by new insightful territory above), and Bayona in
New Orleans where I said in appreciation to the gentleman managing F&B and
wine inventory that he should hold back some of these (again
below-current-retail, and enthusiast-appreciated) wines off the main list
and wait for people to inquire, and he replied with maybe a touch of
satisfaction "I have done that, sir: You are looking at the public list, I
have further wines for the enthusiast, here is that list too."

(There is life outside the Wine Spectator, by the way.)

> I may have
> had my hopes up too high after the Wine Spectator article talked about
what
> a great wine selection at Manny's. The selection was great, just too
young
> IMO.
>
> Regards,
> Dvorak

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:15:01 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>> There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older.
>> . . . I guess the one that topped it off was the $400 half bottle of
>> 1997 Yquem.
>> . . .
>> Anyway, is this typical of wine lists at "fine" resturaunt's?
>
>Yes in the US among younger restaurants anyway, I believe.

And it's pretty common in many restaurants in the UK and France, too.

I can't improve on your reasoning as to why this happens in the US, but in
France, much of this is due to a sad combination of factors.

Firstly, I am told that restaurants and wholesalers and winemakers are taxed
annually on the capital value of their wine inventory. This obviously puts a
huge financial burden on anyone in the chain of supply, who tries to store
long lived wine until it is ready to drink. I say "I am told", because
frankly, such a taxation regime is so draconian, that I find it scarcely
believable that any french government could have seriously proposed it and
passed it.

Another factor is more psychological. Winemakers, by the nature of things,
spend much of their time tasting wine young. This means they are accustomed
- and some prefer - to drinking young wines, and so when asked when their
wines can be drunk, tend to give an assessment that it is (honestly) too
short. It also should be said that they have in interest in selling their
wines as quickly as possible.

Restaurateurs, unless passionate about wine themselves, will be guided
either by wholesalers or by their reps, and again, the way in which the
trade is structured mulitates in favour of them offering wines that are very
young. All this leads to the general availability of wines on wine lists
that are too young, almost to the exclusion of older wines. So customers
think that these young wines are fully ready for drinking - unless
particularly knowledgeable - and they themselves develop a taste for young
wines too.

The only places which resist this trend towards ever younger wines, are the
very expensive 3 star michelin type restaurants which will be able to offer
fully mature wines from a stellar list going back tens and twenties of
years, at prices beyond the reach of anyone short of millionaires.

So this ever widening trend has a "vicious circle" effect. Winemakers are
increasingly requested by customers to make wine that will be ready earlier,
and, knowing that 90% or more of their wines will be drunk before they're 10
years old, don't bother to make the classic long lasted slow maturing wines
that made the reputations of the classic areas.

Sad.

I wish there was some way of reversing the trend.

>Magazines, but this requires both a knowledgeable wine mgr, and also senior
>management with the vision to support him or her. It certainly does happen
>in the US.

And in the UK too, for a while. The Tate Gallery restaurant in London was
the place I learnt most about wines. Tom Machin the wine manager had created
a fabulous cellar with wines sold at their peak and at VERY reasonable
prices. I dont know what he did to persuade the top brass, but for many
years it was an icon for wine lovers.

>(There is life outside the Wine Spectator, by the way.)

Chuckle. The question I'd ask is "Is there life _inside_ the Wine Spectator,
the Wine Advocate and other prestigious guides?"

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:36:53 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

<big snip>

>>Magazines, but this requires both a knowledgeable wine mgr, and also senior
>>management with the vision to support him or her. It certainly does happen
>>in the US.
>
>And in the UK too, for a while. The Tate Gallery restaurant in London was
>the place I learnt most about wines. Tom Machin the wine manager had created
>a fabulous cellar with wines sold at their peak and at VERY reasonable
>prices. I dont know what he did to persuade the top brass, but for many
>years it was an icon for wine lovers.

Still very good. Had lunch there a few weeks ago and drank a half
bottle of Ch de Beaucastel 97 for eighteen quid.

Food only OK though. I'd like to go with a bunch of winey friends and
drink though some of the list. Which is available on the web site -
www.tate.org.uk

Adam

In article >, "Dvorak"
> writes:

>What I considered
>odd was the amount of fairly nice Bordeaux (not to mention fine Italian and
>Southern Rhone) wines were far far to young for drinking in my opinion.
>There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older. You got
>progressively more choices in 98 and 99, but the great majority of the wines
>were 2000 and later.

I'd echo the others' statements. But might add one note- as others note, "too
young" is basically the norm in restaurants. But that bothers me less in a
steakhouse than anywhere else- if I'm going to eat red meat, I can handle some
tannins & youthful fruit.

Since mature wines are rare (and usually VERY expensive) in US restaurants, I
usually try to find "off vintages". The guys with their pocket vintages guides
can decide '97 Brunello is better than '96, '00 Bordeaux is better than
'99,etc. , but I'll take the early-maturing vintages.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Hi Ian, Max,

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:36:53 +0100, Ian Hoare > said:

] Salut/Hi Max Hauser,=20
]=20
] le/on Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:15:01 -0800, tu disais/you said:-
]=20
] >> There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older.
] >> . . . I guess the one that topped it off was the $400 half bottle of
] >> 1997 Yquem.
] >> . . .
] >> Anyway, is this typical of wine lists at "fine" resturaunt's?
] >
] >Yes in the US among younger restaurants anyway, I believe.=20
]=20
] And it's pretty common in many restaurants in the UK and France, too.
]=20
] I can't improve on your reasoning as to why this happens in the US, but in
] France, much of this is due to a sad combination of factors.
]=20
] Firstly, I am told that restaurants and wholesalers and winemakers are ta=
xed
] annually on the capital value of their wine inventory. This obviously put=
s a
] huge financial burden on anyone in the chain of supply, who tries to store
] long lived wine until it is ready to drink. I say "I am told", because
] frankly, such a taxation regime is so draconian, that I find it scarcely
] believable that any french government could have seriously proposed it and
] passed it.
]=20

Wow, I've never heard of that!! Anyone else got any info? It does seem fa=
r fetched,
how would value be established, other than sales price? Doesn't sound like=
the=20
tax man to be using wine-searcher.com!

[snip]
] The only places which resist this trend towards ever younger wines, are t=
he
] very expensive 3 star michelin type restaurants which will be able to off=
er
] fully mature wines from a stellar list going back tens and twenties of
] years, at prices beyond the reach of anyone short of millionaires.=20
]=20

What you say is true, I'd just add another type of restaurant that sometimes
has older wines: the small family run sort of place in the country. Perha=
ps
rarely, but it does happen. There are a few places in normandy I can think
of, notably a little dive where the food is pretty bad, but copious and _ve=
ry_
cheap; it's the sunday lunch rdv for a lot of the farming set. Last time I=
went
the 4 course menu was around 50 FF, (8 =A4) and you could get a modest but
decent Bordeaux from the 80s for under 100 FF (15 =A4).

] So this ever widening trend has a "vicious circle" effect. Winemakers are
] increasingly requested by customers to make wine that will be ready earli=
er,
] and, knowing that 90% or more of their wines will be drunk before they're=
10
] years old, don't bother to make the classic long lasted slow maturing win=
es
] that made the reputations of the classic areas.=20
]=20
] Sad.
]=20
] I wish there was some way of reversing the trend.=20
]=20

Agree 100% with these previous lines. The "disneyfication" effect.

[]

-E

--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:36:53 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Max Hauser,
>>> Anyway, is this typical of wine lists at "fine" resturaunt's?
>>
>>Yes in the US among younger restaurants anyway, I believe.
>
>And it's pretty common in many restaurants in the UK and France, too.
>
>I can't improve on your reasoning as to why this happens in the US, but in
>France, much of this is due to a sad combination of factors.
>
>Firstly, I am told that restaurants and wholesalers and winemakers are taxed
>annually on the capital value of their wine inventory. This obviously puts a
>huge financial burden on anyone in the chain of supply, who tries to store
>long lived wine until it is ready to drink. I say "I am told", because
>frankly, such a taxation regime is so draconian, that I find it scarcely
>believable that any french government could have seriously proposed it and
>passed it.
>
>Another factor is more psychological. Winemakers, by the nature of things,
>spend much of their time tasting wine young. This means they are accustomed
>- and some prefer - to drinking young wines, and so when asked when their
>wines can be drunk, tend to give an assessment that it is (honestly) too
>short. It also should be said that they have in interest in selling their
>wines as quickly as possible.
>
>Restaurateurs, unless passionate about wine themselves, will be guided
>either by wholesalers or by their reps, and again, the way in which the
>trade is structured mulitates in favour of them offering wines that are very
>young. All this leads to the general availability of wines on wine lists
>that are too young, almost to the exclusion of older wines. So customers
>think that these young wines are fully ready for drinking - unless
>particularly knowledgeable - and they themselves develop a taste for young
>wines too.
>
>The only places which resist this trend towards ever younger wines, are the
>very expensive 3 star michelin type restaurants which will be able to offer
>fully mature wines from a stellar list going back tens and twenties of
>years, at prices beyond the reach of anyone short of millionaires.
>
>So this ever widening trend has a "vicious circle" effect. Winemakers are
>increasingly requested by customers to make wine that will be ready earlier,
>and, knowing that 90% or more of their wines will be drunk before they're 10
>years old, don't bother to make the classic long lasted slow maturing wines
>that made the reputations of the classic areas.
>
>Sad.
>
>I wish there was some way of reversing the trend.
>
>>Magazines, but this requires both a knowledgeable wine mgr, and also senior
>>management with the vision to support him or her. It certainly does happen
>>in the US.
>
>And in the UK too, for a while. The Tate Gallery restaurant in London was
>the place I learnt most about wines. Tom Machin the wine manager had created
>a fabulous cellar with wines sold at their peak and at VERY reasonable
>prices. I dont know what he did to persuade the top brass, but for many
>years it was an icon for wine lovers.

All too true, but while this aspect may indicate a "half-empty" glass,
I'm an optimist who finds a degree of "half-fullness" to restaurant
wine lists, and I'm happy to reward those who fit this model with
regular patronage.

While youth in wines is almost a foregone conclusion, particularly in
the US where restaurants (other than chains) come and go with pathetic
frequency and wines are produced for early accessibility, there is a
positive side.

Restaurants that hope to attract a wine-savvy crowd (and who recognize
that selling good wine with their food will both make the food more
attractive and virtually double the final tab of the customer), will
build a quality wine list of producers of better than average QPR.
While I could trust (but don't) Wine Spectator, Advocate, Producer or
Flogger magazine for opinions, I would rather taste for myself. That
leaves me with a wall full of attractive labels and tiny 3x5
shelf-talkers in the local wine emporium. I look, read, admire and
come away confused. I could purchase a dozen assorted bottles and take
them home for comparison, but that would take weeks to evaluate and
when I decide to purchase quantity, nothing would be remaining on the
dealer shelves. I would strike out more often than homer. (That's
baseball talk which I will be happy to explain to my European and Oz
friends over a glass of something red.)

Conversely, I can visit several restaurants in my local area that
offer carefully selected lists of currently available wines. They have
been tasted, culled for quality and then properly described in the
wine list. The staff has had tastings and discussions so as to be
trained to discuss and recommend to the customer. The filtering of
plonk with pretty labels has already been done for me.

I've found that it is remarkably easy for me to visit these places and
find quality wines of whatever type I may have recently discussed on
alt.food.wine. I can taste representative quality bottlings and
usually wind up purchasing case lots thereafter. I've also found a
couple of places with extensive lists that have given me the
opportunity to taste wines from producers or regions that I could
never find in a wine shop or direct, such as Siduri PNs, Rochioli PNs,
Turley Zins, etc.

Sure, a lot of these wines are young, but they also display well even
in their youth and my shopping is greatly simplified.

As for Michelin ***, ahhhh, what memories I have from the '70s &
'80s--Boyer, Troigros, Lameloise, Tour d'Argent, Taillevent,
Bocuse....Even Cipriani who was only **, because no one but the French
could merit three...and Girardet who being in Switzerland couldn't get
any at that time.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

One other thing about restaurant lists that bugs me is how the mark-up
is different for different wines. The best example was at Bernardus
Lodge in Carmel CA, the lowest mark-up was double retail for one wine
while the highest was about six times retail. $1200 for a 1995 Lafite
(this was 1999) was the highest I've ever seen. Who would drink a four
year old Lafite?

>
>>(There is life outside the Wine Spectator, by the way.)
>
> Chuckle. The question I'd ask is "Is there life _inside_ the Wine Spectator,
> the Wine Advocate and other prestigious guides?"
>

The answer is....

Sell your wines via Wine Spectator, but don't buy your wines via them.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> As for Michelin ***, ahhhh, what memories I have from the '70s &
> '80s--Boyer, Troigros, Lameloise, Tour d'Argent, Taillevent,
> Bocuse....Even Cipriani who was only **, because no one but the French
> could merit three...and Girardet who being in Switzerland couldn't get
> any at that time.

I was in Paris last week, and decided to treat myself - so, lunch
(no space at dinner) at Taillevent, one of the few 'great'
restaurants I knew by name/reputation.

It was *bad*.

Not just not good value - I knew going in that I was about to
blow $100 on lunch - but the courses consisted of:

stale choux-cheese 'profiterole' amuse-bouche

over-salted and bitter consomme

the exception - an excellent risotto with a prosciutto-like
garnish and intense, wood-meat flavour

salmon: served very rare (fair enough) but farm-raised and with
nothing at all to impart flavour/accentuate; accompanied by lima
beans (a little bitter and strong a pairing for me) and tepid,
innocuous potatoes

'molten' chocolate pudding that was overbaked, hence unmolten,
accompanied by mediocre-at-best coffee icecream

[ObOnTopic: the house champagne also didn't get above mediocre -
no complexity, little texture; I confess I forgot to check what
it was; the glass of Graves I drank at the sommelier's
recommendation was also disappointing - some of this I suppose
may be carryover from the shock of such poor food]

The best thing about the meal in all honesty was the butter,
which was great! The petits fours were reasonable, too, actually.

So: did I somehow hit a series of uncharacteristic flaws, or was
this simply representative of the current state?

[Yes, I mentioned my experience to M. Vrinat when asked; he seems
a charming fellow, but offered only a gallic shrug.]

Anyway, </rant>. I guess I should have requested guidance here!
[And the trip was rescued culinarily by some excellent meals -
one at L'A.O.C., next to the university, was tremendous and very
cheap (especially by comparison!), and the following week skiing
(on the pretense of a neuroscience convention) had some pretty
good buffets and one outstanding whole roasted lamb]. But I'd
still like to try some of the world's outstanding places...

Ewan

Emery Davis wrote:

>] Firstly, I am told that restaurants and wholesalers and winemakers are taxed
>] annually on the capital value of their wine inventory. This obviously puts a
>] huge financial burden on anyone in the chain of supply, who tries to store
>] long lived wine until it is ready to drink. I say "I am told", because
>] frankly, such a taxation regime is so draconian, that I find it scarcely
>] believable that any french government could have seriously proposed it and
>] passed it.
>
>Wow, I've never heard of that!! Anyone else got any info? It does seem far fetched,
>how would value be established, other than sales price? Doesn't sound like the
>tax man to be using wine-searcher.com!
>
>
>
Five or six years back we had a member of this group that claimed to
manage the largest wine cellar in the UK
at some country in in the southern part of England. He regaled us with
numerous problems of maintaining
a large cellar and the yearly tax was a big part of his worries. The
wine in his cellar all belonged to the bank
so the cost of money was a part of the equation. He had a lot of factors
other than just tax and loan costs
such as spoilage, theft, breakage and insurance. He joined the group
looking for a better management program
than he was using but I don't think he found anything.

Dvorak wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
> Haven't posted in a while, but was curious about other's thoughts on my
>dining experience tonight. I went to "Manny's" in Minneapolis, which is
>supposedly one of the top steakhouses in America. I won't dispute that fact
>as the steak was very very good. It was their wine selection that I found
>to be curious. I chose the 2000 Simi Landslide Cabernet, which seemed
>reasonably priced (by resturaunt standards) at $70 or so. What I considered
>odd was the amount of fairly nice Bordeaux (not to mention fine Italian and
>Southern Rhone) wines were far far to young for drinking in my opinion.
>There was hardly anything on the winelist from 1997 or older.
>

I like the steaks at Manny's but I was never happy with their wine list
either. Make a pilgrimage to
Bern's Steak House in Tampa, FL. At last count they had over 600,000
bottles in their cellar. They
have every vintage ever bottled on a lot of the California Cabs.
Just think of the inventory tax that they must have to pay.

"Bill" > in ...
>
> I like the steaks at Manny's but I was never happy with their wine list
> either. Make a pilgrimage to
> Bern's Steak House in Tampa, FL. At last count they had over 600,000
> bottles in their cellar.

That's a vast quantity. It would represent capital (even just wholesale
purchase prices and assuming modestly that it's not all $400 bottles by any
means) of at _least_ $10-20 million US. Much more than the total value of
buildings, land, and equipment for many substantial restaurants (to say
nothing of their wine inventories which tend to be a minority of assets). I
hope it offers a range of choices to leave our Minnesota correspondent
satisfied!

To sustain a large wine inventory like that, I believe that a large and
wine-interested clientele of regulars is necessary. (And good credit with
one's wine merchants.)

(One of the more impressive wine lists I've seen was at the Tour d'Argent, a
place where one may surely eat a decent meal but the food is, in my own
opinion, almost incidental, or a fringe benefit, to the historical impact of
the place. Anyway the wine list resembles a US metropolitan telephone
directory with its thin paper and fine print -- a wine enthusiast could
spend days in it. Trophies that US nouveaux-riches could commit (and have
in fact committed) felonies for, but much more importantly for most people,
breadth and depth at every price. I found the wine service, as often in
high-end places in France, dedicated and professional -- enthusiastic
inquiries about general areas elicited spirited, resourceful response and
when I wanted to note down a particular bottle that we much enjoyed, M. le
sommelier actually went and separated the label from the bottle, returning
it in an envelope. Service with a smile!)

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> I could purchase a dozen assorted bottles and
> take them home for comparison, but that would take weeks
> to evaluate and when I decide to purchase quantity,
> nothing would be remaining on the dealer shelves. I would
> strike out more often than homer. (That's baseball talk
> which I will be happy to explain to my European and Oz
> friends over a glass of something red.)

DOn't worry, also someone here in europe plays baseball
too.
Could this be the reason for my frequent hit & run at
the local wineshops?

Vilco

"kenneth mccoy" > wrote in message
...
> .....Who would drink a four year old Lafite?
>

overpaid city merchant bankers!! (I'm sure you know the Cockney Rhyming
Slang...)

In the USA, wine is purchased with after tax dollars.

Most states tax inventory annually. Historic value(purchase price) is
usually acceptable, unless the restaurant is using the wine as a
collateral asset, in which case, if the tax man gets wind of
it........

It is difficult to buy wine in less than a 6 pack. Half a dozen 1990
2nd growths at $100-200 a bottle create a real investment problem. as
they don't move very fast.

I see on winesearcher that H/bottles of 97 Yquem are around $150,
which puts wholesale at areond $100. Should show at $300+ in a
restaurant.

I continously clear out the nooks and crannies of my cellar by selling
one or two bottles at a time to area high end restaurants who want to
spice up their wine list.e.g. those 1980's CA cabs and grand cru
burgandies. They sell, but very slowly. The people buying them buy
labels, not wine. Opus 1, Dominus, and the like bring huge dollars.

Many CA and OZ high end wines are "highly allocated" Winemakers think
the best place to show the wine, and with the highest price is in a
restaurant. It is not unusual for the allocation to a given
restaurant to be 3 or 6 bottles, and is seldom more than 12 bottles.
This may well be the only place the wine is ever seen, other than a
charity event.

Max Hauser wrote:

>(One of the more impressive wine lists I've seen was at the Tour d'Argent, a
>place where one may surely eat a decent meal but the food is, in my own
>opinion, almost incidental, or a fringe benefit, to the historical impact of
>the place. Anyway the wine list resembles a US metropolitan telephone
>directory with its thin paper and fine print -- a wine enthusiast could
>spend days in it. Trophies that US nouveaux-riches could commit (and have
>in fact committed) felonies for, but much more importantly for most people,
>breadth and depth at every price. I found the wine service, as often in
>high-end places in France, dedicated and professional -- enthusiastic
>inquiries about general areas elicited spirited, resourceful response and
>when I wanted to note down a particular bottle that we much enjoyed, M. le
>sommelier actually went and separated the label from the bottle, returning
>it in an envelope. Service with a smile!)
>

You take me to Tour d'Argent and I will take you to Bern's. To me the
food at Bern's is certainly not
up to their wonderful cellar but after dinner you are escorted to the
upper chamber or desert room.
They have a 35 page desert menu, 150 cognacs and 150 ports by the glass
to choose from. I would
order a hamburger if they had it just to get upstairs.

http://www.bernssteakhouse.com/bs_frame.htm

>Go take a look at their list.
>