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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Default Wines from te Sea

Topi Kuusinen > wrote:

> Too bad I can't remember the name of the salvors or the wreck.


The ship was the Jonköping, torpedoed in 1916, the champagne was
Heidsieck 1907 - and it has been mentioned in this thread. A
google search should help immediately.

M.
  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> I agree with Michael that the sooner we get rid of cork, the
> better.


There is a very interesing article in the Wine Spectator:

<http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Ma..._Template/0,11
97,2067,00.html>

or

<http://shorl.com/fabunokepresta>

M.
  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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Default Domjelac ( Closures)


"Cwdjrx _" > wrote in message
...
>
> I put shipwreck and wines into Google and came up with:
>
> ______________________________________
>
> http://rms-republic.com/in_the_news/ws10_31_87.html
>
> ______________________________________
>
> This should add some more complexity to this discussion. I have followed
> this thread with interest, but I decided I had little to add other than
> speculation. I will say that long ago cork was high tech for the time
> compared to oil seals, wooden pegs, and such. However there must surely
> be a better way today. But this is a consumer issue, except for corked
> wines that show up early, so as usual it will be difficult to find
> anyone willing to pay for detailed research.


I'm sure that's true if you're including shipwrecked wines, but I can assure
you that both the cork producers and the manufacturers of "alternative
closures" are spending a lot of time and $$/?? investigating this issue. My
money is on the alternatives. BTW, have you seen the glass stoppered wines
from Germany?

Tom S


  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote:

> I DO accept that there's already a lot of evidence that shows
> that wines age under Stelvin, but from what I can see, this
> evidence is not so unequivocal over _how_ it ages.


I'd say it is.

> Is it the same?


No.

> Better?


Yes.

> Worse?


No.

> In what way?


They retain freshness longer, but gain more in complexity.

M.
  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Topi Kuusinen
 
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Default Wines from te Sea

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Topi Kuusinen > wrote:
>
>
>>Too bad I can't remember the name of the salvors or the wreck.

>
>
> The ship was the Jonköping, torpedoed in 1916, the champagne was
> Heidsieck 1907 - and it has been mentioned in this thread. A
> google search should help immediately.
>
> M.

Michael,

That's the one, thanks. Or rather the "Jönköping" after the Swedish town.

I should read the whole thread more closely before replying <blushes>.

BTW, as far as I know, that salvage started quite a few more hopefuls on
their search in the archives here for similar cargoes.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland



  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"Tom S" > wrote:

> BTW, have you seen the glass stoppered wines from Germany?


I have a bottle (Austrian sauvignon blanc 2003 from Sattlerhof) at
home.

But I have a twofold reservation about the glass stopper. First,
will the cap provide enough pressure over a long period of time to
ensure tightness? Second, the PVDC layer is quite thin. This means
that glas and stopper must be more or less perfectly round to give
a tight fit. If one or the other has an oval eccentricity, then
they might not prove tight. Anyhow, the screw cap technology is
much more advanced and has proven fine for over three decades, so
there is not the slightest doubt an which to chose - IF I was
asked. I still can't understand why Bordeaux chateaux can't offer
futures with a choice of closure (they could even command a small
premium), just about the same way you have the choice of bottle
size. After all, it's my decision to take the risk, and they
could easily make everybody happy.

M.
  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Default Wines from te Sea

Topi Kuusinen > wrote:

> That's the one, thanks. Or rather the "Jönköping" after the
> Swedish town.


Your English is much better than my Swedish! ;-)

M.
  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
dick
 
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Did you find that in a book or do you simply remember that from your days of
hanging around with Sir Thomas Newton?

Shit, All I can remember is H2O is Water and not to ever get in the
Hindenburg.


"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Joe,
>
> le/on Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:04:42 -0500, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >Wat do you mean by the so2 is consumed? What happens to the SO2 after
> >bottling/

>
> Well first it's dissolved and combines with water
>
> H20+SO2=H2(SO3), this dissociates to form H+ and (So3)- ions.
>
> Then these combine with oxygen
>
> 2(SO3-)+02=2(SO4-)
> and the sulphurous ions becomes sulphuric ones.
>
> That's easy!! The point at issue is that SO2 (sulphurous ions, actually)
> have a very powerful attraction for oxygen - much more so than most of the
> other components in wine. So if there IS any oxygen present in wine
> containing sulphites (sulphurous ions), it will rapidly be combined with

the
> sulphites _before_ any other (slower) oxidation can take place. Actually
> this isn't _exactly_ what happens, because all these chemical reactions

are
> a matter of equilibria rather than one way processes, but these equilibria
> are reached with differing speeds and with different priorities. The
> relatively energetyic oxidation of SO2 takes priority. And the SO3 formed

is
> so stable that to all intents and purposed, it takes little part in any
> redox reactions.
>
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website



  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi dick,

le/on Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:00:31 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Did you find that in a book or do you simply remember that from your days of
>hanging around with Sir Thomas Newton?
>
>Shit, All I can remember is H2O is Water and not to ever get in the
>Hindenburg.


Ernie Rutherford, actually. I did chemistry for 10 years or so, and it is
still a thing that fascinates me. One reason I became a chef. To paraphrase
Heinlein "Think of it as chemistry in action"

In any case - not to put you down - redox (reduction<>oxidation) reactions
are part of elementary chemistry, in my 2nd year at school iirc.

The Hindenburg was alright. It was the sparks that were the problem!!
Chuckle.



--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 2 Mar 2004 13:53:09 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> BTW, have you seen the glass stoppered wines from Germany?

>
>I have a bottle (Austrian sauvignon blanc 2003 from Sattlerhof) at
>home.
>
>But I have a twofold reservation about the glass stopper. First,
>will the cap provide enough pressure over a long period of time to
>ensure tightness? Second, the PVDC layer is quite thin. This means
>that glass and stopper must be more or less perfectly round to give
>a tight fit. If one or the other has an oval eccentricity, then
>they might not prove tight.


Exactly. I share that reservation. Also, it's an expensive solution,
involving special bottles with highly dimensionally accurate necks, AND
special (dimensionally precise) stoppers. Anyone who has dealt with dround
glass stoppers, will know just how precise one needs to be, and what a pig
it is to ge them dead right. Given that screwtop bottles are special, asnd
more expensive, at least the screwcaps are cheap and of proven technology.


>asked. I still can't understand why Bordeaux chateaux can't offer
>futures with a choice of closure (they could even command a small
>premium),


Yes, I completely agree with you here.

If I were 20 years younger, and had the bucks, I'd set up a bottling line
using Stelvin, and tour round the chteaux, offering my services, so that
they could avoid the additional investment of having TWO different bottling
lines. I am SURE whoever does so could make a _mint_ over the next few
years. It is completely beyond my understanding why no one has thought of
such a thing. As it is, at my age, I've no interest in setting up a new
business.

>size. After all, it's my decision to take the risk, and they
>could easily make everybody happy.


Agreed.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
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On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:01:23 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi dick,
>
> le/on Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:00:31 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>Did you find that in a book or do you simply remember that from your days of
>>hanging around with Sir Thomas Newton?
>>
>>Shit, All I can remember is H2O is Water and not to ever get in the
>>Hindenburg.

>
>Ernie Rutherford, actually. I did chemistry for 10 years or so, and it is
>still a thing that fascinates me. One reason I became a chef. To paraphrase
>Heinlein "Think of it as chemistry in action"


You should meet Herve This.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> ... Second, the PVDC layer is quite thin. This means that glass
>> and stopper must be more or less perfectly round to give a
>> tight fit. If one or the other has an oval eccentricity, then
>> they might not prove tight.


> Exactly. I share that reservation. Also, it's an expensive
> solution, involving special bottles with highly dimensionally
> accurate necks, AND special (dimensionally precise) stoppers.


In fact ...

> Anyone who has dealt with dround glass stoppers, will know just
> how precise one needs to be, and what a pig it is to ge them
> dead right.


.... they do not look at all look like being very expensive and
precision-made. But it might also be that the PVDC sealing film is
thicker than with screw caps. But I am quite sure the chaps from
Alcoa Germany conceiving the idea have thought anout the problem.

> Given that screwtop bottles are special, asnd more expensive, at
> least the screwcaps are cheap and of proven technology.


Indeed.

>>I still can't understand why Bordeaux chateaux can't offer
>>futures with a choice of closure (they could even command a
>>small premium),


> Yes, I completely agree with you here.
>
> If I were 20 years younger, and had the bucks, I'd set up a
> bottling line using Stelvin, and tour round the chteaux,
> offering my services, so that they could avoid the additional
> investment of having TWO different bottling lines.


Ian, the truth is: The vast majority of the top chteaux (and the
totality of the minor ones) do not even have bottling lines, they
rely on highly experienced mobile bottlers! And, yes, these
bottlers *do* already offer screw cap bottling! An example from a
mobile bottler from Beziers:

<http://www.emvi.net/matieres_seches.html>

> I am SURE whoever does so could make a _mint_ over the next few
> years. It is completely beyond my understanding why no one has
> thought of such a thing. As it is, at my age, I've no interest
> in setting up a new business.


I fear the idea is there already - but no one follows.

>> After all, it's my decision to take the risk, and they could
>> easily make everybody happy.


> Agreed.


If they only did ... <sigh>

M.
  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Ae
 
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Ian Thanks for taking time to explain!

I guess the so4- level is a non event from there on? I gather it is not
noticeable to the palate, doesn't precipitate out ...

Joe

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Joe,
>
> le/on Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:04:42 -0500, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >Wat do you mean by the so2 is consumed? What happens to the SO2 after
> >bottling/

>
> Well first it's dissolved and combines with water
>
> H20+SO2=H2(SO3), this dissociates to form H+ and (So3)- ions.
>
> Then these combine with oxygen
>
> 2(SO3-)+02=2(SO4-)
> and the sulphurous ions becomes sulphuric ones.
>
> That's easy!! The point at issue is that SO2 (sulphurous ions, actually)
> have a very powerful attraction for oxygen - much more so than most of the
> other components in wine. So if there IS any oxygen present in wine
> containing sulphites (sulphurous ions), it will rapidly be combined with

the
> sulphites _before_ any other (slower) oxidation can take place. Actually
> this isn't _exactly_ what happens, because all these chemical reactions

are
> a matter of equilibria rather than one way processes, but these equilibria
> are reached with differing speeds and with different priorities. The
> relatively energetyic oxidation of SO2 takes priority. And the SO3 formed

is
> so stable that to all intents and purposed, it takes little part in any
> redox reactions.
>
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website



  #94 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,

le/on Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:25:46 +0100, tu disais/you said:-


>>Ernie Rutherford, actually. I did chemistry for 10 years or so, and it is
>>still a thing that fascinates me. One reason I became a chef. To paraphrase
>>Heinlein "Think of it as chemistry in action"

>
>You should meet Herve This.


You know, Mike, I also subscribe to the (much troubled) frc, and from time
to time people keep talking about Hervé This. I am afraid that from what
I've seen of their quotations, he gives me the impression of wanting to sell
his books by being an iconoclast. Most of the time he seems to be saying
that what everyone knows perfectly well from long experience in the kitchen
to be true, in fact isn't. Salting aubergines, for example, according to
This, doesn't reduce bitterness. Well I've cooked and eaten enough of them
to know perfectly well that it does.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #95 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi Joe Ae,

le/on Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:02:51 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Thanks for taking time to explain!
>
>I guess the so4- level is a non event from there on? I gather it is not
>noticeable to the palate, doesn't precipitate out ...


You're welcome.

Absolutely true. Firstly there may well be sulphates already present.
Secondly, remember we're talking in parts per million, milligrams of the
stuff. Sulphates aren't particularly recommended, though two - glauber's
salt and Epsom salt have both been taken medicinally. Certainly harmless and
without any effect in the quantites present in wine.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #96 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
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On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:16:02 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>You know, Mike, I also subscribe to the (much troubled) frc, and from time
>to time people keep talking about Hervé This. I am afraid that from what
>I've seen of their quotations, he gives me the impression of wanting to sell
>his books by being an iconoclast.


Ian, I do not follow frc, but I have met Herve and he is a perfectly
decent fellow.

I think that one must distinguish between his books, scholarly works
about what goes on in cooking at the molecular level, and his public
speaking, where he barely gets into the subject of his books and
reveals himself as a remarkable showman. I suspect that during these
entertaining sessions he might get carried away with provocations of
all sorts, but I think they are done in jest.

>Most of the time he seems to be saying
>that what everyone knows perfectly well from long experience in the kitchen
>to be true, in fact isn't. Salting aubergines, for example, according to
>This, doesn't reduce bitterness. Well I've cooked and eaten enough of them
>to know perfectly well that it does.


I also salt them, though you can obtain the same result by compressing
the slices between paper towels or cloths. If they are small and very
fresh, you dont' need to do naything...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
JEP
 
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I was away for a lot of the TCA taint discussions over the last week
(still trying to get caught up), but incase this hasn't been posted
yet, there may be another source of what we consider "cork" taint.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/040216/040216-21.html

Will it never end?

Andy
  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
 
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"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines wrote:
>
> >
> > Incorrect. There are 2 types of polymerization-- oxidative and
> > non-oxidative. It is the non-oxidative which is normally associated

with
> > the polymerization of tannins in quality table wines.

>
> Craig,
> I've done some looking, and perhaps I now understand this statement.

There is
> one type of polymerization that results from the cross-linking of

proanthocyanidins
> with acetaldehyde. If that is what you mean by non-oxidative, then I

feel that it
> simply begs the question since acetaldehyde is the product of alcohol

oxidation. I
> realize that there might be various "storage forms" of acetaldehyde, but

their
> ultimate source is almost certainly an oxidation event. Am I missing

something
> here?
>
> Mark Lipton
>
>



  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> I still can't understand why Bordeaux chateaux can't offer
> futures with a choice of closure (they could even command a small
> premium), just about the same way you have the choice of bottle
> size. After all, it's my decision to take the risk, and they
> could easily make everybody happy.


The problem is that the Bordelais aren't exactly young Turks; they're a
bunch of stodgy old farts who are happy to do what they've been doing for
hundreds of years and see no reason to risk changing things as long as they
can sell everything they make at ridiculous prices.

Mind you, I'm speaking of the _top_ producers. They're the ones everyone
else follows. When Lafite or Latour switch to (or at least offer the option
of) Stelvin capped bottles, there'll be a _stampede_ away from cork in all
the other chteaus. Within a few years of that, the French will be touting
the advantages of screwcaps as though _they_ invented them!

From my fingertips to God's ears - right Michael? ;^D

Tom S


  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Ovchain
 
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Default Analog and digital, saints and sinners

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message >...
> "Mark Lipton" in ...
> >
> > Please
> > note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
> > it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
> > digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
> > which they prefer (the music analogy isn't perfect, since there is a
> > quantifiable measure of quality -- THD -- that is totally lacking in
> > wine appreciation).


Goodness, Gracious! THD, as the JJ referred to below once told me, is
"mostly useless" in the same sense that the HHGTTG refers to the earth
as "mostly harmless". It's just another one of those things that he's
been attacked roundly over and over again for, I guess. I won't speak
further for him, if he would prefer to offer his opinion, you'll
certainly notice it at the time.

I must say I haven't heard from him in a while, I dare say that
perhaps he's just shut of it at this point.

> For more than 20 years, with more or less patience (saints
> are, after all, human), Jim argued the ancient and unpopular position that
> useful discussion of a subject demands knowledge of the subject. He was
> lucky not to be killed (though the latter might admittedly -- no offense,
> Jim -- have accelerated the sainthood process, notoriously gradual. :-)


If my connections are accurate, " is in fact dead,
although the person who the initials refer to remains animate, having
fled to the far end of the country to work for a solvent firm instead
of one that appears to be soon filing for intellectual bankruptcy, at
least, if not going File 13.

I can't imagine how his name came up here, though. That seems most
wondrous wierd indeed. He's not even making delta-sigma convertors
any more!

I do wonder though. JJ and sainthood? It seems an odd match, indeed,
if his other sentiments haven't change in the nonce, but perhaps he'd
appreciate the nomination, none the less, in the spirit it was
offered. Patience, though, was never something I thought he regarded
as a virtue. Perhaps I was wrong.


  #101 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
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Default Analog and digital, saints and sinners


"Mark Ovchain" in om...


"Mark Ovchain" indeed. -- Max


The humor in this thread is becoming slightly specialized. I shall try
atone for it with this memorable quotation on chemistry, and taste tests, by
a well-known experimenter in 1799.

--
"Pure Hydrogen has been often respired by different philosophers,
particularly by Scheele, Fontana, and the adventurous and unfortunate
Rosier." -- Humphry Davy, _Researches Chemical and Philosophical,_ Division
1, 1799.


  #102 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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Default Analog and digital, saints and sinners

>> "Mark Lipton" in ...
>> >
>> > Please
>> > note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
>> > it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
>> > digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
>> > which they prefer


Mark - analogue by a mile!
Next time you are up here I'll let you listen to the stylus of my Koetsu
caressing the grooves....;-)
  #103 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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(JEP) wrote:

> I was away for a lot of the TCA taint discussions over the last
> week (still trying to get caught up), but incase this hasn't
> been posted yet,


It has been posted (although not this particular page).

> there may be another source of what we consider "cork" taint.
>
>
http://www.nature.com/nsu/040216/040216-21.html

As I have said befo This is a totally harmless issue - not for
the winery involved, of course -, compared to the totality of the
industry, where 5 to 10 percent of cork taints is a *much* bigger
issue.

M.
  #104 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"Tom S" > wrote:

>> I still can't understand why Bordeaux chateaux can't offer
>> futures with a choice of closure (they could even command a
>> small premium), just about the same way you have the choice of
>> bottle size. After all, it's my decision to take the risk, and
>> they could easily make everybody happy.


> The problem is that the Bordelais aren't exactly young Turks;
> they're a bunch of stodgy old farts who are happy to do what
> they've been doing for hundreds of years and see no reason to
> risk changing things as long as they can sell everything they
> make at ridiculous prices.


Hmmm. What about "concentrateurs" and all that stuff? Improved
wine-making etc.?

> Mind you, I'm speaking of the _top_ producers. They're the ones
> everyone else follows. When Lafite or Latour switch to (or at
> least offer the option of) Stelvin capped bottles, there'll be a
> _stampede_ away from cork in all the other chteaus. Within a
> few years of that, the French will be touting the advantages of
> screwcaps as though _they_ invented them!
>
> From my fingertips to God's ears - right Michael?


Right you are.

M.
  #105 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
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Default Analog and digital, saints and sinners



Bill Spohn wrote:

> >> "Mark Lipton" in ...
> >> >
> >> > Please
> >> > note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact,
> >> > it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs.
> >> > digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on
> >> > which they prefer

>
> Mark - analogue by a mile!
> Next time you are up here I'll let you listen to the stylus of my Koetsu
> caressing the grooves....;-)


Careful, Bill, or we might ignite a real firestorm (and an OT one to boot!) in
here. I'll take you up on your invitation, however. ;-) For myself, I follow
my catholic tastes and maintain both analog and digital sources (it's also
laziness, as I have no intention of replacing all of my 300+ albums -- even *if*
I could find a CD version of some of more obscure stuff in my collection). For
the record, where do you purchase you styli at? I'm afraid that I may soon be
in the market once more...

Mark Lipton



  #106 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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Default Analog and digital, saints and sinners

>For myself, I follow
>my catholic tastes and maintain both analog and digital sources (it's

also>laziness, as I have no intention of replacing all of my 300+ albums --
even>*if*>I could find a CD version of some of more obscure stuff in my
collection).>For>the record, where do you purchase you styli at? I'm afraid
that I may soon>be>in the market once more...

I too have both sources - its just that I rarely find myself listening to
digital - whenever I have time to do some serious listening, it seems to be
always an LP - I have around 4000 of them.

As for cartridges, I hope never to have to replace mine - it would cost the
equivalent of a 49 Petrus....but you can have many of the moving coils retipped
for much less.

If you want a new cartridge, you can get something very nice between $200 and
$1K

  #107 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
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"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "dick" > wrote:
>
> > Slam Dunk!

>
> Sorry, my bad command of English doesn't give me any clue as to
> what this means. Could you help me?


Gee, I can't believe nobody explained that term to you, Michael.

"Slam dunk" is a basketball term, describing a play where the player holding
the ball leaps into the air next to his team's basket and, while at the
apogee of his trajectory, slams the ball _down_ through the hoop for a goal.
This play is virtually impossible to defend against once the conditions have
been met for its execution. (Needless to say, it takes a rather tall player
who can jump quite high to make this play.)

Tom S


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>Needless to say, it takes a rather tall player
>who can jump quite high to make this play.)


Actually a tall person doesn't have to jump much to dunk....a short person
does. Mugsy Bogues and Spud Webb could both dunk with ease yet weren't much
more than 5' 6" tall and the basket is set at 10'.
Bi!!
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