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Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
Saturday self and Xina had our friend Bjarne who is a Benedictine monk on a
health sabbatical for a rather good dinner (do say so meself, even though I was the cook). B handed over a bottle of Dubeuf Beaujolais Noveau, while mentioning that this was not what he had had in mind but that one was not to be had in the shop. As Bojolpifs go, it was not bad at all - very fruity and marshmallowy, went down very well between the mussle soup and the game casserole. It was with the final apfelstrudel Xina decided we needed a glass of something sweet, and went down in the ccellar, came back with a Riesling GC Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and found to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and tasted it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, less of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. Anybody has any idea what was the matter? Cheers Nils Gustaf -- Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
<SNIP> >went down in the ccellar, came back with a Riesling GC
>Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and found >to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses.<snip> Secondary fermentation after the wine was bottled. I'll let one of the wine chemists here give you the technical aspects but easy explanation is that there was still active yeast cells and sugar of some type in the wine when it was bottled. At least that's my understanding. Bi!! |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message ... > Saturday self and Xina had our friend Bjarne who is a Benedictine monk on a > health sabbatical for a rather good dinner (do say so meself, even though I > was the cook). > B handed over a bottle of Dubeuf Beaujolais Noveau, while mentioning that > this was not what he had had in mind but that one was not to be had in the > shop. > As Bojolpifs go, it was not bad at all - very fruity and marshmallowy, went > down very well between the mussle soup and the game casserole. > > It was with the final apfelstrudel Xina decided we needed a glass of > something sweet, and went down in the ccellar, came back with a Riesling GC > Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and found > to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. > Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and tasted > it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, less > of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. > > Anybody has any idea what was the matter? Are you certain that something was the matter? Perhaps the wine was designed to be that way. I always bottle my Late Harvest Gewurztraminer with a slight bit of dissolved CO2 to give a refreshing petillant character to the wine, and I would think that at least some other producers would do the same. Typically, not as much spritz as real soda pop, but enough to perhaps give a slight impression of soda pop. You say that everything else seems proper, in the nose and flavor, and I would expect the same of the clarity. Now, if there were yeasts or bacteria growing in the wine, producing gas, one would expect a certain amount of turbidity, especially as the bottle got shaken up with pouring. Craig Winchell GAN EDEN Wines > > Cheers > > Nils Gustaf > -- > Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se > > |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:56:41 GMT, "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines"
> wrote: > >"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message ... >>Riesling >GC >> Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and >found >> to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. >> Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and >tasted >> it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, >less >> of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. >> >> Anybody has any idea what was the matter? > >Are you certain that something was the matter? Perhaps the wine was >designed to be that way. The fizz is CERTAINLY not intentional. This is typical CO2 from bottle refermentation, Dirler is either a low-sulphur or a no-sulphur winemaker, so these bottles do not travel well unless you can maintain the cold chain operating throughout the voyage from Alsace to Scania (something YOU can probably do with your Volvo Nils). And cellaring must be below 11 degrees. This problem can usually be fixed or reduced by rough aeration in a decanter, shake it up and let it all go. This happens to me all the time with some of Arena's delicious vermentino... Mike |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
I once bought a Tokay Aszu that was refermenting, I put it in the
freezer long enough to kill the active yeast cells- it was still and just fine after sitting a while. |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message ... Riesling GC > Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and found > to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. > Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and tasted > it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, less > of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. > Hi Nils, I don't know whether that bottle was faulty or not - it reminds me of young wines from J.J.Prüm that use to have a high level of carbon dioxide, I believe. Whatever it is, they do give me a fizzy impression and I've been told that it is the reason for the longvity of these wines. The recommendation is often to wait 10 or more years for a traditional J.J.Prüm wine, even a 'simple' Kabinett, to reach maturity. Maybe you should have kept that bottle another 5 years? Anders |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message ... > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:56:41 GMT, "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > > wrote: > > > > >"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message > ... > >>Riesling > >GC > >> Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and > >found > >> to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. > >> Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and > >tasted > >> it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, > >less > >> of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. > >> > >> Anybody has any idea what was the matter? > > > >Are you certain that something was the matter? Perhaps the wine was > >designed to be that way. > > The fizz is CERTAINLY not intentional. This is typical CO2 from bottle > refermentation, Dirler is either a low-sulphur or a no-sulphur > winemaker, so these bottles do not travel well unless you can maintain > the cold chain operating throughout the voyage from Alsace to Scania > (something YOU can probably do with your Volvo Nils). And cellaring > must be below 11 degrees. > > This problem can usually be fixed or reduced by rough aeration in a > decanter, shake it up and let it all go. This happens to me all the > time with some of Arena's delicious vermentino... He didn't say anything about turbidity or a layer of yeast at the bottom of the bottle, which gave me the idea that it might be similar to my LH Gewurz. Bottled cold under CO2, it definitely has enough dissolved CO2 to make one believe that there might have been a refermentation in the bottle, but it's there by design. A refermenting bottle would typically also have a definite yeasty aroma, but there was also no mention of that. Another reason for gas in bottles, other than refermentation is if the corker vacuum failed during corking, thereby pressurizing the headspace and forcing gases to dissolve in the wine. If you have knowledge of the producer and their wines, and what they're attempting to accomplish, I'll defer to your judgement. I just want you to understand that there are potentially other reasons for dissolved gases in a wine. And I'll say it again-- turbidity. Craig Winchell GAN EDEN Wines > > Mike |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
> Secondary fermentation after the wine was bottled. I'll let one of the
wine > chemists here give you the technical aspects but easy explanation is that there > was still active yeast cells and sugar of some type in the wine when it was > bottled. At least that's my understanding. Seems likely. It would appear that this secondary fermentation destroys some of the complexity of the one, apart from adding unwanted bubbles. Cheers! Nils Gustaf |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
Mike T wrote:
> ... Dirler is either a low-sulphur or a no-sulphur > winemaker The latter, I´d guess. This was the first year he did biodynamics, and, as far as I klnow, the biodynamicists don´t do sulphur, right? (unless buried in a cow´s horn and poured in a spiral according to the phases of the moon ....) > so these bottles do not travel well unless you can maintain > the cold chain operating throughout the voyage from Alsace to Scania > (something YOU can probably do with your Volvo Nils). And cellaring > must be below 11 degrees. Well, I can´t keep the temperature in the luggage down to 11 degrees - nor do I hav e those temperatures in my cellar! I may be in for slightly unpleasant surprises next time I open one of Dirler´s GC ... Nils Gustaf -- Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se > > This problem can usually be fixed or reduced by rough aeration in a > decanter, shake it up and let it all go. This happens to me all the > time with some of Arena's delicious vermentino... > > Mike |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > skrev i meddelandet
link.net... > > He didn't say anything about turbidity or a layer of yeast at the bottom of > the bottle, which gave me the idea that it might be similar to my LH Gewurz. > Bottled cold under CO2, it definitely has enough dissolved CO2 to make one > believe that there might have been a refermentation in the bottle, but it's > there by design. The wine was perfectly clear, if not brilliant. It had the color you´d expect of a 5 year old Riesling. > A refermenting bottle would typically also have a definite > yeasty aroma, but there was also no mention of that. No, I could not discern any yeasty aromas. Mineral, fruit, as I would expect. Perhaps a bit short in the nose, considering it´s a GC, but I have noticced that many of Dirler´s GC are less forward than the entrylevel wines of the same varietal. > Another reason for gas > in bottles, other than refermentation is if the corker vacuum failed during > corking, thereby pressurizing the headspace and forcing gases to dissolve in > the wine. If you have knowledge of the producer and their wines, and what > they're attempting to accomplish, I'll defer to your judgement. I have visited and talked to M Dirler a couple of times, but even though I get along in French, discussing the deeper intricacies of wine making is beyond me. >I just want > you to understand that there are potentially other reasons for dissolved > gases in a wine. And I'll say it again-- turbidity. Thank you for your insights, Craig! Cheers Nils Gustaf -- Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
... > > I don't know whether that bottle was faulty or not - it reminds me of young > wines from J.J.Prüm that use to have a high level of carbon dioxide, I > believe. Whatever it is, they do give me a fizzy impression and I've been > told that it is the reason for the longvity of these wines. The > recommendation is often to wait 10 or more years for a traditional J.J.Prüm > wine, even a 'simple' Kabinett, to reach maturity. > Maybe you should have kept that bottle another 5 years? You may be right. I have a few other bottles of GC, though from other vineyards, by the same producer. (Or did I give them away? No, don´t think so ...) I´ll keep them for a few years and see what comes out ... ;) Cheers Nils Gustaf -- Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message ... > It was with the final apfelstrudel Xina decided we needed a glass of > something sweet, and went down in the ccellar, came back with a Riesling GC > Saering 1998 from Dirler. We opened it, cork smelt OK. Poured it, and found > to our collective amazement fizzy bubbles starting to form in the glasses. > Smelt it - a nice mineral and fruit nose, nothing exc eptional - and tasted > it. Yep, definitely fizzy, giving an odd impression of soda pop. Also, less > of structure and complexity than expected from a wine with a GC status. > > Anybody has any idea what was the matter? Nothing at all was the matter, assuming that would mean that something was bad. What you had was a bottle of wine that had restarted fermenting "in vitro". This can only happen if the wine is bottled non-sterile filtered with either residual sugar (not dry, IOW) or with unresolved malic acid. It's an uncommon occurrence in commercial wines, but it can happen. Didn't it _taste_ interesting? Maybe it wasn't what you were expecting, but it might have been pretty nice wine anyway. Tom S |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message ... > I have visited and talked to M Dirler a couple of times, but even though I > get along in French, discussing the deeper intricacies of wine making is > beyond me. Heh, heh! I've noticed that some winemakers regard their techniques as proprietary, so you might not get too far with a more probitive line of enquiry anyway. > >I just want > > you to understand that there are potentially other reasons for dissolved > > gases in a wine. And I'll say it again-- turbidity. > > > Thank you for your insights, Craig! I'll second that. Craig raised a couple of issues I hadn't considered - particularly the possibly _intentional_ slight carbonation of the wine. The defective vacuum corker was the other, but I tend to discount that. Although I've corked thousands of bottles over the years, I've _never_ bottled with a vacuum corker and I can't recall a gassy bottle that wasn't attributed to in vitro refermentation. Which brings me to turbidity. Refermenters _always_ have turbidity; after all, the yeast is multiplying during the fermentation. The yeast settles out when the wine finally stops fermenting. Tom S |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Tom S" > skrev i meddelandet
. com... > Didn't it _taste_ interesting? Maybe it wasn't what you were expecting, but > it might have been pretty nice wine anyway. Well, to be quite honest, it was not _particularly_ interesting. Think Moscato d´Asti with less Muscat and a whiff of gas station. Nils Gustaf -- Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:42:24 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > said:
][] ] Anybody has any idea what was the matter? ] Interesting discussion. Nobody has mentioned carbonic (I think that's what it is) gas? I recall tasting some Font de Michelle Blanc from the barrell that had a real rotten egg smell. M Gonnet said it was some sort of carbonic (carbolic?) gas that would blow off before the wine was bottled. -E --- Emery Davis You can reply to by removing the well known companies |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
"Emery Davis" > wrote in message . .. > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:42:24 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > said: > > ][] > ] Anybody has any idea what was the matter? > ] > > Interesting discussion. Nobody has mentioned carbonic (I think that's what it is) > gas? I recall tasting some Font de Michelle Blanc from the barrell that had a real > rotten egg smell. M Gonnet said it was some sort of carbonic (carbolic?) gas that > would blow off before the wine was bottled. What you are speaking of is hydrogen sulfide gas, which can also be dissolved in wine, and which can react with various components in wine, creating mercaptans and the like. However, that obviously has nothing to do with the original post, since the wine smelled and tasted just fine to the poster, except that the mouth feel was different than his expectation due to the spritz. Craig Winchell GAN EDEN Wines > > -E > --- > Emery Davis > You can reply to > by removing the well known companies |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:08:21 GMT, "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > said:
] ] "Emery Davis" > wrote in message ] . .. ] > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:42:24 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" ] > said: ] > ] > ][] ] > ] Anybody has any idea what was the matter? ] > ] ] > ] > Interesting discussion. Nobody has mentioned carbonic (I think that's ] what it is) ] > gas? I recall tasting some Font de Michelle Blanc from the barrell that ] had a real ] > rotten egg smell. M Gonnet said it was some sort of carbonic (carbolic?) ] gas that ] > would blow off before the wine was bottled. ] ] What you are speaking of is hydrogen sulfide gas, which can also be ] dissolved in wine, and which can react with various components in wine, ] creating mercaptans and the like. However, that obviously has nothing to do ] with the original post, since the wine smelled and tasted just fine to the ] poster, except that the mouth feel was different than his expectation due to ] the spritz. ] ] Thanks Craig. Apparently I responded to the wrong thread! A combination of trying to catch up and a new news reader, my only excuse. There was another thread hereabouts where the wine smelled like rotten eggs... -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to by removing the well known companies |
Faulty bottle - what´s wrong?
Emery Davis > wrote in message >...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:42:24 GMT, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > said: > > ][] > ] Anybody has any idea what was the matter? > ] > > Interesting discussion. Nobody has mentioned carbonic (I think that's what it is) > gas? I recall tasting some Font de Michelle Blanc from the barrell that had a real > rotten egg smell. M Gonnet said it was some sort of carbonic (carbolic?) gas that > would blow off before the wine was bottled. > Emery, I'm guessing you're talking about carbonic acid - that's the acid you get when you dissolve carbon dioxide (CO2) in water. I think it's a given that there was CO2 in this wine, the question that's been under discussion in this thread is how it got there. Rotten egg smells are the signature of a different chemical, hydrogen sulfide. - Mark W. |
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