Hi All,
For some folks oak can be a real turn-off when it's too prominent
in certain wines. I don't have a very refined palate, and I don't
recognize oak unless it slaps me in the face. However, I do remember
some wines that, upon first sip, transported me to a woodworker's
shop. The Black Opal 1997 Shiraz and the Rosemount Estate 1998 Shiraz
had very strong oak flavors. Since then I haven't really noticed.
Maybe I'm just getting used to oak as a normal component in the
wines I drink?
Comments?

Dick

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:40:36 -0500, "Dick R." > wrote:

>Hi All,
>For some folks oak can be a real turn-off when it's too prominent
>in certain wines. I don't have a very refined palate, and I don't
>recognize oak unless it slaps me in the face. However, I do remember
>some wines that, upon first sip, transported me to a woodworker's
>shop. The Black Opal 1997 Shiraz and the Rosemount Estate 1998 Shiraz
>had very strong oak flavors. Since then I haven't really noticed.
>Maybe I'm just getting used to oak as a normal component in the
>wines I drink?
>Comments?
>
>Dick

Hi Dick,

When I make my own Cab. S and Shiraz, I load up on maximum oak (150g/
batch) But like you, I have not noticed any wines during my mission
to find the 'big' red that are overly oaky. I think the producers are
working hard to integrate their oaks so that their clientele(classy
guys like us) don't think and dream we are in aisle one of Home Depot.

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

Larry sez....

>I think the producers are working hard to integrate their oaks so that their
clientele (classy guys like us) don't think and dream we are in aisle one of
Home Depot.<

8^)........

I don't know why that makes sense to me tonight, but it does and I second that
emotion.

Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

In article >, "Dick R." > writes:

>For some folks oak can be a real turn-off when it's too prominent
>in certain wines. I don't have a very refined palate, and I don't
>recognize oak unless it slaps me in the face. However, I do remember
>some wines that, upon first sip, transported me to a woodworker's
>shop. The Black Opal 1997 Shiraz and the Rosemount Estate 1998 Shiraz
>had very strong oak flavors. Since then I haven't really noticed.
>Maybe I'm just getting used to oak as a normal component in the
>wines I drink?
>Comments?

Well, if you normally drink wines that see a lot of new oak, it could certainly
become part of your "normal" taste profile. Different types of oak, different
toasts, length in barrel, new barrique vs. 1 yr old vs. 3 vs. 30 yr old
foudre/botti, the original profile of the juice can all change one's perception
of oak. We have a poster here sometimes (I think Robertson Chai, though not
positive) who is a salesperson for a cooperage, maybe he'll chime in.

If it doesn't bother you, no reason to worry whether you can detect it. You
probably do detect it, just don't isolate it as oak. If you're getting flavors
like vanilla, dill, chocolate, toasty, etc that's as much the oak as the juice.


I'm one of the primary complainers about "over-oaking" here, but that's just my
tastes. Part of my concern isn't neccesarily distaste for oak flavors- my
cellar includes some new-wave St. Emilions & Baroli, Rioja GRs,CalCabs,Girardin
white Burgs - all of these wines have hefty doses. I tend to object when the
oak is obscuring the characteristics (often regional) I'm looking for in a
wine, or where it seems heavy-handed. Mostly I like variety in my wine, and I
don't need every wine to seem to be looking for a Robert Parker " thick
luscious blackberry and vanilla flavors- 93!".

If I were you, and it didn't bother me, I wouldn't worry about it. Or, if
curiosity drives you, try to find a couple of wines to taste side by side. If
you find you prefer a barrel-aged Chablis to a stainless one, or a barrique
Barolo to a Botti one, then you might find notes re "over-oaking" valuable as a
tool for selecting a wine.

Best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 17 Oct 2003 13:25:04 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>of oak. We have a poster here sometimes (I think Robertson Chai, though not
>positive) who is a salesperson for a cooperage, maybe he'll chime in.

Yup, that's the guy.

>white Burgs - all of these wines have hefty doses. I tend to object when the
>oak is obscuring the characteristics (often regional) I'm looking for in a
>wine, or where it seems heavy-handed.

Exactly. In fact I suspect that we often _notice_ oak more when it's used
on wines which don't have the fruit to take it.

>curiosity drives you, try to find a couple of wines to taste side by side.

Good suggestion. I did that once years ago in the States, bought two
bottles of chardonnay same year, same producer, one which claimed to be
oaked the other unoaked. I've no idea of course whether the grapes chosen
were the same or not. I though both were caricatures. (But I don't think
the producer was that hot - bought it a stupormarket at <$15).


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On 17 Oct 2003 03:41:33 GMT, rosit (Jim) wrote:

>Larry sez....
>
>>I think the producers are working hard to integrate their oaks so that their
>clientele (classy guys like us) don't think and dream we are in aisle one of
>Home Depot.<
>
>8^)........
>
>I don't know why that makes sense to me tonight, but it does and I second that
>emotion.
>

Thanks Jim<

I just reread what I posted yesterday and I think maybe I had too much
oak in my barrel. (Still obscure with no point) ;-)


Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

Larry wrote:
>>>I think the producers are working hard to integrate their oaks so that their
>>clientele (classy guys like us) don't think and dream we are in aisle one of
>>Home Depot.<
>>
>>I don't know why that makes sense to me tonight, but it does and I second that
>>emotion.
>
> Thanks Jim<
>
> I just reread what I posted yesterday and I think maybe I had too much
> oak in my barrel. (Still obscure with no point) ;-)
>
> Larry Stumpf,
> S. Ontario,
> Canada
Hey Jim and Larry,
Made sense to me. So you have a little oak coursing through your
veins. No problem. :-)

Dick

Dale writes

(snipping his excellent post for brevity)
>Well, if you normally drink wines that see a lot of new oak, it could
>certainly
>become part of your "normal" taste profile. Different types of oak, different
>toasts, length in barrel, new barrique vs. 1 yr old vs. 3 vs. 30 yr old
>foudre/botti, the original profile of the juice can all change one's
>perception
>of oak. We have a poster here sometimes (I think Robertson Chai, though not
>positive) who is a salesperson for a cooperage, maybe he'll chime in.
>

And here I am! I'm glad I caught this thread, because I have not been a
regular reader since about July.

I am indeed in the wine barrel business, and we have been very busy making the
deliveries to wineries for the harvest. [For a few weeks in August and
September, there are over 100,000 new barrels being delivered to wineries in
California---you can imagine the logistical nightmare, and finding available
trucks!]

I work for a small company which represents but a fraction of that number in
sales. I have also been a winemaker in Napa and Sonoma---which means that
while it's my job to sell oak, I don't particularly like too much oak in wine.

I could write a book someday about how many of the "quality factors" we
recognize in wine are the result of historical accident.

The barrel was invented as a shipping container. Most Bordeaux wines were
commonly shipped to London merchants in barrels, from early medieval times down
to the 1920s, when chateau bottling became prevalent.

Why oak? Because it's one of the few wood species which makes a liquid-tight
barrel.

The Romans discovered this 2000 years ago when they needed to replace their
ceramic, fragile amphorae, which were OK for transport on the calm waters of
the Mediterranean, with something more durable for ocean and river transport.

There's nothing wrong with, say, maple wood---it might be an excellent
"flavoring" for some types of wines, but you can't make effective barrels with
it.

So, we're using oak. European species have a milder taste than American oak,
which tends to be more pronounced.

A taste for American oak also happened by historical accident: when wineries in
California started to use small barrels instead of giant casks, they couldn't
get barrels from France during the second world war. They adopted American oak
as their standard for cabernet, a practice which continued on into the 1970s.

Australian wine was until very recently exclusively American oak, because of
the high shipping costs of barrels from France.

Australia trained a number of cooperage professionals who bought the wood
staves from America and fashioned barrels locally.

Dale's remarks about the nuances of forest, toast, etc. are right on the mark
and I have little to add, except to say it's suitable for another thread
someday.

How much oak? My personal preference is for the oak to be in the background,
helping to push the fruit forward in the nose, and helping to add structure and
texture to the palate. New, toasted oak also lengthens the finish of a wine.

Oak should be like an actor's costume: it should be appropriate, at times
flamboyant (as in action films), but it should enhance and not be a substitute
for the actor's performance.

Thanks, Dale, for remembering me! I'm not that frequent a poster.

---Bob

Addenda to the previous post:

1. Ian Hoare, it's nice to see your name here again! The few times I've
logged in over the past six months, I didn't find you here. For the benefit of
other readers, Ian is a wealth of information on European wines, and of
regional, small French producers particularly. As I recall, you run a B&B in
Perigord, right?

2. As to woods suitable for barrel-making: chestnut wood has been used
traditionally in some Italian wines, but the wood is scarce, with an open grain
structure (meaning: leaks), and I am not impressed with the flavor profiles.

In Hungary and other parts of eastern Europe, coopers traditionally used
(spelling phonetically from the Hungarian) "Akahsh", a soft, white wood which
closely resembles poplar.

At first I couldn't believe it was acacia, because that's a tree of African
origin. Turns out that it is locust. Small, cottage cooperages still make
barrels of this wood, usually small kegs for storing and ageing their backyard
eau-de-vie; namely, "palinka", a potent distillate of pear juice from the
family orchards. True homemade palinka is an absolutely gorgeous spirit, a
joyful experience, with amazing pear aromas, but at 100 proof it'll knock your
socks off.

---Bob

(RobertsonChai) wrote:

> 1. Ian Hoare ... you run a B&B in Perigord, right?

In the Corrèze.

> 2. As to woods suitable for barrel-making: chestnut wood has
> been used traditionally in some Italian wines, but the wood is
> scarce, with an open grain structure (meaning: leaks), and I am
> not impressed with the flavor profiles.
>
> In Hungary and other parts of eastern Europe, coopers
> traditionally used (spelling phonetically from the Hungarian)
> "Akahsh", a soft, white wood which closely resembles poplar.
>
> At first I couldn't believe it was acacia, because that's a tree
> of African origin. Turns out that it is locust.

Acacia barrels are not uncommon here in Austria. In Hungarian,
it's "akác", pronounced roughly like "ohkaahts" (maybe Ian can
help).

> Small, cottage cooperages still make barrels of this wood,
> usually small kegs for storing and ageing their backyard
> eau-de-vie; namely, "palinka", a potent distillate of pear juice
> from the family orchards. True homemade palinka is an
> absolutely gorgeous spirit, a joyful experience, with amazing
> pear aromas, but at 100 proof it'll knock your socks off.

Caoution: "palinka" tout court means schnaps (destillate). It
quite probable that in this region palinka is always made of pear,
and that the correct designation (körte palinka) is shortened to
palinka. The best known Hungarian palinka, however, is not made
from pears, but from abricots: barack palinka.

M.

(RobertsonChai) wrote:

> Most Bordeaux wines were commonly shipped to London merchants in
> barrels, from early medieval times down to the 1920s, when
> chateau bottling became prevalent.

Caution. Chateau bottling on a commercial scale only started in
the 1920s - Baron Philippe from Mouton did it - and was no way
prevalent for the next decades. Only as late as 1972 it became
compulsory for the Médoc crus classés. And, for the first half of
the 20th century, most Bordeaux wines were shipped in Barrels to
the quai des Chartrons from where they departed to the four
corners of the world, partly in barrels, partly in bottles.

M.

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