I have been slowly becoming a red wine fan over the last few years and now I
love it.
We went to France in August (Dordogne - Bergerac area) and picked up several
bottles of local red wine from wine fairs. The wines I picked up were
lovely - full of flavour and very smooth.

On the label they all specify "Methode Traditionnelle". When I look for
French wines here in the UK non of them specify this. Exactly what does
"Methode Traditionnelle" entail ?
Is it the same as being aged for 12 Months in Oak Barrels ?

Any info greatly appreciated, and any tips on what to look out for on the
labels to get a good quality bottle.

Cheers

DJ

"DJ" > wrote in message
...
> I have been slowly becoming a red wine fan over the last few years and now
I
> love it.
> We went to France in August (Dordogne - Bergerac area) and picked up
several
> bottles of local red wine from wine fairs. The wines I picked up were
> lovely - full of flavour and very smooth.
>
> On the label they all specify "Methode Traditionnelle". When I look for
> French wines here in the UK non of them specify this. Exactly what does
> "Methode Traditionnelle" entail ?
> Is it the same as being aged for 12 Months in Oak Barrels ?
>
> Any info greatly appreciated, and any tips on what to look out for on the
> labels to get a good quality bottle.
>
> Cheers
>
> DJ
>
I've only ever seen "Methode Traditionelle" on the labels of sparkling wine.
Of course in France all sparkling wine is white or rose, yet you say its on
red wine labels, and not even sparkling! Odd. I've never seen that.
For sparkling wine it means that the wine is made to sparkle by the
traditional method of a second fermentation in the bottle, (like Champagne)
as opposed to the non-traditional method of carbonation, as soft drinks are
made to "sparkle".
French wine aged in barrels will say "en barrique" somewhere on the label.

By the way how did your wine travel? I went to France in July, the Vendee
region. Its not a wine producing area but I brought back 20 -30 bottles of
various wines, some in half cases, some single bottles.
Trouble is, at least half of them were corked! I've been to France and
brought back wine several times before (I live in England) and never had any
thing like as many spoilt bottles.

I wonder if there's any way I could avoid this problem? Or was it just bad
luck?

Steve

Salut/Hi DJ,

le/on Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:58:20 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

>I have been slowly becoming a red wine fan over the last few years and now I
>love it.
>We went to France in August (Dordogne - Bergerac area) and picked up several
>bottles of local red wine from wine fairs. The wines I picked up were
>lovely - full of flavour and very smooth.

One of my favourite areas!

>On the label they all specify "Methode Traditionnelle". When I look for
>French wines here in the UK non of them specify this. Exactly what does
>"Methode Traditionnelle" entail ?

Don't have a clue - seriously. I know this sounds truly ludicrous, because
Bergerac is in fact a specialist area of mine, and I really ought to know!

My _guess_ is that this implies harvesting as early as legally possible,
fairly rapid fermentation without prolonged skin contact, and moderate
aging in stainless steel or concrete vats, no oak. I emphasize that this is
a complete guess on my part. I know a few growers who make what they call a
"cuvée traditionnelle" or similar and that's more or less what they do.
(Luc de Conti for his "Cuvée Classique", Laurent de Bosredon for his Ch
Bélingard. In honesty, these are the wines from Bergerac I like least, bu
that is NOT meant to imply I think my taste in this is right and yours
wrong.

The more expensive cuvées use prolonged skin contact for maximum extract of
ultra ripe grapes, they may use micro-oxygenation and will almost certainly
follow up with aging in some proportion of new oak. This tends to make
wines that are less attractive when young, but with more aging potential.

Would one of them have been "Casanova de Conti", by any chance? I know that
was being sold in the wine fairs by Carrefour.

>Any info greatly appreciated, and any tips on what to look out for on the
>labels to get a good quality bottle.

As usual, "location location location". Ie, who grows it. Just as some
awful muck can be found in even the most prestigious parish in Bordeaux, so
it can in neighbouring Bergerac. Equally, some of the most sublime wine can
be found in relatively unlikely villages. I remember the La Croix de
Gravelongue that Michael Pronay introduced me to at Vinexpo. Gorgeous wine,
from a village called Valayrac (who?). So in Bergerac, there are some
wonderful growers making excellent wines. I would be happy to email you a
list of "names" that I particularly like. (I have no financial interest in
anybody in the wine world and no axe to grind).

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

> I've only ever seen "Methode Traditionelle" on the labels of sparkling
wine.

Agreed.

> For sparkling wine it means that the wine is made to sparkle by the
> traditional method of a second fermentation in the bottle, (like
Champagne)
> as opposed to the non-traditional method of carbonation, as soft drinks
are
> made to "sparkle".

Not exactly. I don´t htink I have come across a wine made sparkling by
carbonation for a long time. The procedure used in some fizzy wines is the
cuvée close, or cremat, which means you do the second fermentation in a
steel tank. Example Moscato d´Asti.

HTH

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> The procedure used in some fizzy wines is the cuvée close, or
> cremat,
^^^^^^

Sorry Nils, no. "Cremat" is a rum & coffee drink. In your case
it's probably a concoction of "crémant" (= sparkling wines in
France outside champagne made by methode champenoise; formerly
also a half-sparkler in champagne) and "Charmat" which is the
correct term for tank fermented sparklers.

M.

You are right. Too little sleep, too much coffe. Thank you for correcting
me.

Cheers

Nisl Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message
...
> > For sparkling wine it means that the wine is made to sparkle by the
> > traditional method of a second fermentation in the bottle, (like
> Champagne)
> > as opposed to the non-traditional method of carbonation, as soft drinks
> are
> > made to "sparkle".
>
> Not exactly. I don´t htink I have come across a wine made sparkling by
> carbonation for a long time. The procedure used in some fizzy wines is the
> cuvée close, or cremat, which means you do the second fermentation in a
> steel tank. Example Moscato d´Asti.

Nils, I didn't know that a tank would be used to do a second fermentation,
thanks for the info. Makes me wonder how the wine doesn't go "flat" during
bottling. Guess they must do it quickly.

Regards
Steve

"Steve" > wrote:

> Nils, I didn't know that a tank would be used to do a second
> fermentation, thanks for the info.

More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
fermented, I would guess.

> Makes me wonder how the wine doesn't go "flat" during bottling.
> Guess they must do it quickly.

No, the have a couter pressure bottling line (don't know whether
that's the exact term, in German it's Gegendruck-Füllanlage")
where the wine the sediment is filtered off in the same time.

M.

"Steve" > wrote:

> Nils, I didn't know that a tank would be used to do a second
> fermentation, thanks for the info.

More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
fermented, I would guess.

> Makes me wonder how the wine doesn't go "flat" during bottling.
> Guess they must do it quickly.

No, they have a couter pressure bottling line (don't know whether
that's the exact term, in German it's "Gegendruck-Füllanlage")
where the sediment is filtered off in the same time.

M.

"Steve" > wrote:

> Nils, I didn't know that a tank would be used to do a second
> fermentation, thanks for the info.

More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
fermented, I would guess.

> Makes me wonder how the wine doesn't go "flat" during bottling.
> Guess they must do it quickly.

No, they have a counter pressure bottling line (don't know whether
that's the exact term, in German it's "Gegendruck-Füllanlage")
where the sediment is filtered off in the same time.

M.

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...

> More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
> fermented, I would guess.
>

I am obviously not qualified to provide my own opinion, because I've only
just found this out, but which method produces the better wine?

I remember visiting the Ackerman cellars in Saumur, France and being amazed
at the labour-intensity of the bottle turning process. Thousands and
thousands of bottles were standing in old wooden racks, and the guide was
obviously proud that here was the genuine "Methode Traditionelle". I also
remember the smell in the cellars, any time I drink an Ackerman Saumur
sparkling wine. It's there in the wine. Delicious!

I'd suggest that the reason most winemakers use tank fermentation is
cost-saving, and a compromise is made on quality.

Regards

Steve

Hi All

Interesting discussion. I can add my two cents (South African) worth:
In SA, most of the high selling sparkling wines are made by carbonation.
These are mostly from the House of JC le Roux, in Stellenbosch. They also
make excellent MCC (Methode Cap Classique) wines. These are bottle
fermented, using the Champagne method, but made in a different style. As far
as I know, we only have one or two Charmat-method wines in our country. One
is quite an unusual wine, in that it's a Method Charmat Noble Late Harvest.
Delicious !

Just as an explanation: due to EEU objections, we are not allowed to call
our Method Campenoise wines "Champagne", therefore the name "Method Cap
Classique" was devised. Try some if you get the chance, it's worthwhile. I'm
also convinced you'll vind it quite good value for money. As far as I know,
Simonsig Estate export quite prolifically, certainly to the UK. Look out for
"Kaapse Vonkel", which means "Cape Sparkle".

Vinous greetings
H-J
"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > For sparkling wine it means that the wine is made to sparkle by the
> > > traditional method of a second fermentation in the bottle, (like
> > Champagne)
> > > as opposed to the non-traditional method of carbonation, as soft
drinks
> > are
> > > made to "sparkle".
> >
> > Not exactly. I don´t htink I have come across a wine made sparkling by
> > carbonation for a long time. The procedure used in some fizzy wines is
the
> > cuvée close, or cremat, which means you do the second fermentation in a
> > steel tank. Example Moscato d´Asti.
>
> Nils, I didn't know that a tank would be used to do a second fermentation,
> thanks for the info. Makes me wonder how the wine doesn't go "flat" during
> bottling. Guess they must do it quickly.
>
> Regards
> Steve
>
>

"Steve" > wrote:

>> More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
>> fermented, I would guess.

> I am obviously not qualified to provide my own opinion, because
> I've only just found this out, but which method produces the
> better wine?

Well, judgment is pending. Riddlers of course state that the small
vessel intensifies the contact of the lees with the wine and that
this will result in better quality.

Tank fermenter otoh - especially some sitting in German viticulral
schools - insist on the fact that both methods are absolutely
identical, that finally a tank is nothing else than a very, very
large bottle.

There is a kind of "pragmatic" truth: Tank fermented sparklers
with reduced costs supply the lower end of the market, while
bottle fermenters, being able to command higher prices (by law/
tradition/marketing/whatsoever reason), can afford better quality
base wines, longer lee contact etc. resulting in a finer finished
product.

So, unless someone takes the same base wine from champagne that
goes into a regular cuvée and makes a test putting this wine into
a tank for the same rather long time - up to half a decade and
more for the very best -, nobody will know the outcome. Anyhow,
this happens legally to be a strict no-no in Champagne.

As to medium quality base wines (viticultural schools don't
normally have access to the very best) with rather short time on
the lees - less than half a year in any case I've heard of -, the
Germans say there's no discernible difference.

HTH to clarify a little,

M.

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "Steve" > wrote:
>
> >> More than 90 percent of all sparklers worldwide are tank
> >> fermented, I would guess.
>
> > I am obviously not qualified to provide my own opinion, because
> > I've only just found this out, but which method produces the
> > better wine?
>
> Well, judgment is pending. Riddlers of course state that the small
> vessel intensifies the contact of the lees with the wine and that
> this will result in better quality.
>
> Tank fermenter otoh - especially some sitting in German viticulral
> schools - insist on the fact that both methods are absolutely
> identical, that finally a tank is nothing else than a very, very
> large bottle.

I agree with the Germans to a point on this matter, but if I'm not mistaken
the Charmat process practitioners do not run the tank pressures anywhere
near the 6 atmospheres that is attainable in Methode Traditionnelle bottles.
The higher pressure, plus the longer lees contact, results in a finer mousse
in the finished wine.

Tom S

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Tank fermenter otoh - especially some sitting in German viticulral
> schools - insist on the fact that both methods are absolutely
> identical, that finally a tank is nothing else than a very, very
> large bottle.

One thing that I've noticed, Michael (on a very tangential point) is
that larger format bottles of sparkling wine are often superior to the
same wine in smaller bottles. These of course are "Methode
Champenoise" or whatever it's now called, but I wonder if you've noticed
the same thing and have any explanation for the phenomenon.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton > wrote:

> One thing that I've noticed, Michael (on a very tangential
> point) is that larger format bottles of sparkling wine are often
> superior to the same wine in smaller bottles. These of course
> are "Methode Champenoise" or whatever it's now called, but I
> wonder if you've noticed the same thing and have any explanation
> for the phenomenon.

My experience of having the same sparkler side by side from
different bottle sizes *and* sharing the same provenance from
production date to the tasting (this latter point is absolutely
critical) tends toward zero, I'm afraid.

All I can say is to repeat what the champenois tell us: That they
consider the magnum the ideal format for their brew. This does not
explain, of course, why the magnum should be better than a
standard or a half bottle - I just trust their experience.

Otoh, the magnum used to the largest bottle where fermentation in
the bottle was compulsory; larger formats were "transvasés", i.e.
filled from standard bottles. This latter procedure inevitably
results in a loss of bubbles, so this might explain why they never
mentioned larger formats. Since shortly (two years or something),
also larger bottles have to be fermented in the bottle, up to
méthusalem (6 liter, 8 bottles), but I might err on the exact
limit size. Pommery, btw, has been the only of the larger houses
fermenting in and riddling larger formats (and disgorging them on
demand).

My best champagne in recent times was a jéroboam (3 liter, 4
bottles) of Pommery 1985 that showed absolutely stunning and
sublime in both freshness and depth of flavor.

M.

"Tom S" > wrote:

> I agree with the Germans to a point on this matter, but if I'm
> not mistaken the Charmat process practitioners do not run the
> tank pressures anywhere near the 6 atmospheres that is
> attainable in Methode Traditionnelle bottles. The higher
> pressure, plus the longer lees contact, results in a finer
> mousse in the finished wine.

Sorry, but I don't quite see the logic of this argument: Higher
pressure in any case will result in *more* bubbles, a higher
intensity of the mousseux. Common wisdom has it that less pressure
- e.g. the former Crémant of Champagne or Satèn from Franciacorta
- produces finer bubbles.

M.

"Michael Pronay" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom S" > wrote:
>
> > I agree with the Germans to a point on this matter, but if I'm
> > not mistaken the Charmat process practitioners do not run the
> > tank pressures anywhere near the 6 atmospheres that is
> > attainable in Methode Traditionnelle bottles. The higher
> > pressure, plus the longer lees contact, results in a finer
> > mousse in the finished wine.
>
> Sorry, but I don't quite see the logic of this argument: Higher
> pressure in any case will result in *more* bubbles, a higher
> intensity of the mousseux. Common wisdom has it that less pressure
> - e.g. the former Crémant of Champagne or Satèn from Franciacorta
> - produces finer bubbles.

I'm going on the theory that the combination of higher pressure _plus_ long
term concentration of the gas in solution in the presence of yeast and
autolysis products tends to bind the CO2 in solution, resulting in both more
effervescence and a slower release of the gas from solution - resulting in a
more persistent and finer mousse.

Sound reasonable?

I can still remember a methode Champenoise from 30 years ago that seemingly
*exploded* into bubbles in my mouth with each sip. It was a truly memorable
experience, and a wonderful wine. 1981 Mirrasou "Natural".

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote:

> I'm going on the theory that the combination of higher pressure
> _plus_ long term concentration of the gas in solution in the
> presence of yeast and autolysis products tends to bind the CO2
> in solution, resulting in both more effervescence and a slower
> release of the gas from solution - resulting in a more
> persistent and finer mousse.
>
> Sound reasonable?

Perfectly, thank you.

M.