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Wine (alt.food.wine) Devoted to the discussion of wine and wine-related topics. A place to read and comment about wines, wine and food matching, storage systems, wine paraphernalia, etc. In general, any topic related to wine is valid fodder for the group. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
itself? |
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Never to be drunk w/food
aesthete8 wrote:
> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by > itself? Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk? Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by itself. Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto. -- Steve Slatcher http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Mike wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:28:37 +0100:
> Steve Slatcher wrote: >> aesthete8 wrote: >>> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed >>> strictly by itself? >> >> Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk? >> >> Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would >> probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) >> by itself. >> >> Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", >> which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by >> itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto. > True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking > his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with > food was much better. He suggested oysters would be a great > match. I can't reach the Count's levels of conspicuous consumption but the idea of *any* sweet wine with oysters is abhorrent to me. You might as well drink coke or lemonade!! -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Mike Tommasi > wrote in
: > > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange. Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? s. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
On Nov 1, 8:13*am, santiago > wrote:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote : > > > > > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet > > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, > > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange. > > Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one of the old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with lobster. In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich and elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of what kind of lobster dish he had in mind. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST):
> On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago > wrote: >> Mike Tommasi > wrote >> : >> > >> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea > >> of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high > >> enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar or > >> seafood+sugar is indeed strange. >> >> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? > quoting< I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with lobster.In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich and elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of whatkind of lobster dish he had in mind. >endquote< Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as a gourmet was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was). Just like Francis Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful movies. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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Never to be drunk w/food
On Nov 1, 10:09*am, "James Silverton" >
wrote: > *cwdjrxyz *wrote *on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST): > > > On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago > wrote: > >> Mike Tommasi > wrote > >> : > > > >> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea > > >> of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high > > >> enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar or > > >> seafood+sugar is indeed strange. > > >> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? > > quoting< > > I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one > ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with > lobster.In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich > and elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of > *whatkind of lobster dish he had in mind. > > >endquote< > > Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as a gourmet > was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was). Just like Francis > Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful movies. If you go back to the late 1800s, you find sweet wines often were served with shellfish at even the most exclusive dinners.The 1893 edition of The Epicurean by Charles Ranhoffer, the then recently retired Swiss chef of Delmonico's in NYC, gives some menus with wines listed. Delmonico's then was perhaps the best and most exclusive restaurant in the US and served the very rich, US presidents, visiting nobility from Europe, etc. The often 16 or more course menus give a little insight into what wines were served with food then. There are of course a lot of Romanee-Conti, Lafite, Krug, and other now expensive wines listed. Chablis was sometimes served with oysters, but also Sauternes and Creme de Tete(but the wine name was not given!). One oyster match is oysters on the shell with Yquem. Another Yquem match is with Timbales de Sheepshead a l'Ambassadrice(does anyone know what goes in this dish?). Since much Champagne was sweet back then, one can not be certain if a Champagne served with a food is sweet or dry since the house name only for the Champagne, sometimes with a vintage, often was used. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:45:56 -0800 (PST):
> On Nov 1, 10:09 am, "James Silverton" > > wrote: >> cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST): >> > >> On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago > wrote: > >>> Mike Tommasi > wrote > >>> : >> > > >>> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the > > >>> idea of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity > > >>> is high enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar > > >>> or seafood+sugar is indeed strange. >> > >>> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? > >> quoting< >> >> I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago >> that one ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did >> like it with lobster.In the old days, lobster often was >> served with a very rich and elaborate sauce as well as rather >> plain, and I have no idea of whatkind of lobster dish he had >> in mind. >> > >> endquote< >> >> Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as >> a gourmet was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was). >> Just like Francis Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful >> movies. >If you go back to the late 1800s, you find sweet wines often were >served with shellfish at even the most exclusive dinners. We were talking about Chateau d'Yquem with oysters and I assume they would be raw. Tho' it's not to my taste, I can see sweet wines with highly sauced shellfish but it's hard to imagine eating a raw oyster without something acid like lemon or sauce mignonette. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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Never to be drunk w/food
In article
>, cwdjrxyz > wrote: > On Nov 1, 8:13*am, santiago > wrote: > > Mike Tommasi > wrote > > : > > > > > > > > > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet > > > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, > > > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange. > > > > Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster? > > I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one of > the old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with lobster. > In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich and > elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of what > kind of lobster dish he had in mind. It could not have been the simple boiled lobster with drawn butter we eat here as I don't find that any sweet wines go well with that and my palate. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message ... > aesthete8 wrote: >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by >> itself? > > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk? > > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would probably prefer > to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by itself. > > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", which I believe > is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by itself, usually a sweet wine - > a passito or recioto. > > -- > Steve Slatcher > http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher Years ago we used to, in a sense, have our cake and eat it. About every eighteen months four families would get together for a Grange Sunday lunch. Each family would bring an older bottle of Grange - no duplicates allowed. The host woul decant them while we sipped champagne. Those who were into it would spend about an hour savouring, tasting and talking about the four wines. Then we'd all sit down and drink them with lunch as we would any everyday red. Workd for us. Cheers! Martin PS One year one piker brought an non-Grange "This (australian red) is every bit as good as Grange - you'll love it!" It wasn't, we didn't. That was the last lunch... |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Lawrence Leichtman > wrote in
: > > It could not have been the simple boiled lobster with drawn butter we > eat here as I don't find that any sweet wines go well with that and my > palate. I would not mind drinking d'Yquem, or a good Sauternes (more on botrytis than in passerillage style) with grilled wild lobster. Specially if the wine has some age on it. In fact, I do not think a Kabinett or even Spatlese with a few years would be a bad match for many grilled shelfish. s. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Steve wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:41:02 +0000:
> aesthete8 wrote: >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed >> strictly by itself? > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk? > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would > probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by > itself. > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", > which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by > itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto. I know a number of people who say they don't like white wine but who will drink a good bottle of red wine *before* a dinner where red is inappropriate. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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Never to be drunk w/food
In article >,
"James Silverton" > wrote: > Steve wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:41:02 +0000: > > > aesthete8 wrote: > >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed > >> strictly by itself? > > > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk? > > > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would > > probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by > > itself. > > > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", > > which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by > > itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto. > > I know a number of people who say they don't like white wine but who > will drink a good bottle of red wine *before* a dinner where red is > inappropriate. I drink almost all wines (even Retsina but not often). I just have never been a fan of sweet wines with shellfish. A small amount of residual sugar is one thing but not very sweet such as a sauterne. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
On Nov 1, 1:45*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> Another Yquem > match is with Timbales de Sheepshead a l'Ambassadrice(does anyone know > what goes in this dish?). Sheepshead is a fish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) . I could not find the dish made from this fish, but I did find a dish called Timbale of Fillets of Sole from the late 1800s that may indicate how such dishes are made. A timbale paste is made from 1 pound of flour, 3/4 pound butter, 5 egg yolks and some salt and water. This is used to bake a large timbale shell using a special timbale pan. The inside of the baked timbale is glazed( I would guess that a fish or chicken glaze would be used). The sole fillets are poached in butter with salt and lemon juice. Then allemande sauce with minced truffles and mushrooms is added to the sole and this mixture is used to fill the timbale shell. Crayfish are used to garnish the top. There also is another garnish in the form of little pasta cakes with yet more truffles. Such a dish would be extremely rich and would require a wine of great intensity not to be over powered by it. Yquem perhaps has the needed intensity, but I am not sure the match would please some modern tastes. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
On Nov 2, 11:04*am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
what goes in this dish?). > Sheepshead is a fishhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) . Use this url instead of the above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) .. |
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Never to be drunk w/food
Hi Mike,
coming in a bit late (some might say better never than late) On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:05:09 +0100, Mike Tommasi > wrote: >>> True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking >>> his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with >>> food was much better. He suggested oysters would be a great >>> match. >> >> I can't reach the Count's levels of conspicuous consumption but the idea >> of *any* sweet wine with oysters is abhorrent to me. You might as well >> drink coke or lemonade!! > >I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet wine >with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, but >the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange. Do you remember a meal you otganised in Turin on the occasion of the Slow Food jamboree to showcase sweet wines? The one with the pre-eminent local chef who was so far up himself that his idea of a food/wine match was to use some utterly unsuitable sweet wine in the sauce and then claim it made a match? Well... unless I'm greatly mistaken he served a sweet wine with oysters as nibbles before the meal. Maybe you refused to have anything to do with it, but I did try a couple. I think I'll stick to Amphibolite from Jo Landron. Coming to the original question. I have to admit that while in general I adore drinking sweet wines with desserts (on Thursday it will be Jacquie's Tarte Tatin, probably with the Cuvée de l'Abbeye Monbazillac '95) I don't feel that top German sweet wines are at their best when served with food. Actually, it's hard for me to think of any food that would taste better when accompanied by a Beerenauslese of great power and complecity either. Finally, to come to your comment about sweet wine and foie gras. It can work, I feel - think of that Sapros meal with Vinexpo where Henri Gagneux did so well. But where I have my reservations is over serving this combination as an entree (to USAians, I use this word correctly - as an entry into the meal - starter) . There's no way the meal can unfold with harmony after that. However I have, and do serve foie gras wih a sweet wine VERY successfully before the cheese and dessert. -- All the best Fatty from Forges |
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