Hello All!

I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I think I
detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill Marlborough Riesling,
2005. It was not undrinkable but there was a most unusual over taste.
The label claims that it could be cellared until 2013, but not by me!


--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Silverton wrote:
> Hello All!
>
> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I think I
> detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill Marlborough Riesling,
> 2005. It was not undrinkable but there was a most unusual over taste.
> The label claims that it could be cellared until 2013, but not by me!

Jim,
Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just the most
common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA contamination and (most
disastrously) even entire winery facilities can. What year was your
Grove Mill Riesling? I think that I've seen some locally and might pick
one up out of curiosity.

Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Mark wrote on Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:40:43 -0400:

> James Silverton wrote:
>> Hello All!
>>
>> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday
>> I think I detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill
>> Marlborough Riesling, 2005. It was not undrinkable but there
>> was a most unusual over taste. The label claims that it could
>> be cellared until 2013, but not by me!

> Jim,
> Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just
> the most common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA
> contamination and (most disastrously) even entire winery
> facilities can. What year was your Grove Mill Riesling? I
> think that I've seen some locally and might pick one up out of
> curiosity.

> Mark Lipton

Thanks Mark. 2005 as I said.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I
>> think I detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill
>> Marlborough Riesling, 2005. It was not undrinkable but there
>> was a most unusual over taste. The label claims that it could
>> be cellared until 2013, but not by me!

> Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just the
> most common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA contamination

JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
exceptions exist, thank you.)

> and (most disastrously) even entire winery facilities can.

But then the whole batch should be tainted. One single bottle does
not tell much.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
>>> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I
>>> think I detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill
>>> Marlborough Riesling, 2005. It was not undrinkable but there
>>> was a most unusual over taste. The label claims that it could
>>> be cellared until 2013, but not by me!
>
>> Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just the
>> most common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA contamination
>
> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
> exceptions exist, thank you.)

Michael,
Are you saying that few Rieslings see cooperage of any sort? I
don't know what the practice is in Austria, but in Germany, the
traditional method of elevage involves placing the wine in 1000 L fuder,
which are indeed oak barrels. Are you saying otherwise? I'm confused.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Sep 24, 12:14�pm, Michael Pronay > wrote:
> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
> exceptions exist, thank you.)
>
Not barriques, maybe, but my impression was a LOT of German and Alsace
wines are aged in fuder or other large barrels.

excuse my similar response, Google Groups is having one of their bimonthly
"every posting is delayed" issues, I didn't see this

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>>
>>>> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I
>>>> think I detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill
>>>> Marlborough Riesling, 2005. It was not undrinkable but there
>>>> was a most unusual over taste. The label claims that it could
>>>> be cellared until 2013, but not by me!
>>
>>> Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just the
>>> most common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA contamination
>>
>> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
>> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
>> exceptions exist, thank you.)
>
> Michael,
> Are you saying that few Rieslings see cooperage of any sort? I
> don't know what the practice is in Austria, but in Germany, the
> traditional method of elevage involves placing the wine in 1000 L fuder,
> which are indeed oak barrels. Are you saying otherwise? I'm confused.
>
> Mark Lipton
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

"Michael Pronay" > skrev i melding
...
> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
> exceptions exist, thank you.)
>
Fuder is not a barrel?
Gerhard Eifel (Galerie Riesling) used Fuders in the 1990'ies (but steel
tanks now), many minor vintners in the Mosel had Fuders even to this date...
But, I agree, they are becoming exceptions :-)
Anders

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Mark Lipton > wrote:
>>
>>>> I had hoped that screw tops might eliminate TCA but yesterday I
>>>> think I detected it in a screwtop NZ wine: Grove Mill
>>>> Marlborough Riesling, 2005. It was not undrinkable but there
>>>> was a most unusual over taste. The label claims that it could
>>>> be cellared until 2013, but not by me!
>>
>>> Keep in mind that corks aren't the only source of TCA, just the
>>> most common one. Barrels can also pick up a TCA contamination
>>
>> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
>> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a few
>> exceptions exist, thank you.)
>
> Michael,
> Are you saying that few Rieslings see cooperage of any sort? I
> don't know what the practice is in Austria, but in Germany, the
> traditional method of elevage involves placing the wine in 1000 L fuder,
> which are indeed oak barrels. Are you saying otherwise? I'm confused.
>
> Mark Lipton
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Whoa! Sorry guys, this is NZ Reisling

Think Steel, Steel, Steel.
Sure, reds like PN, Cab, Merlot Malbec will see oak.
Some whites as well, especially Chard (too much quite often)
and a rare SB or two many get a little oak, mainly the richer tropical
styles from say Hawkes Bay, but most SB and as far as I know all
nz reisling will have seen nothing but stainless steel till it hits a
bottling
line.
Sorry about your dodgey wine though, hard too attribute a cause IMO.

cheers
greybeard

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote:

>> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
>> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a
>> few exceptions exist, thank you.)

> Fuder is not a barrel?

Sorry folks, my misinterpretation. I was thinking of new barrels.

Btw, has anyone heard of old barrels becoming TCA-infected?

M.

On Sep 25, 3:29�am, Michael Pronay > wrote:
> "Anders T�rneskog" > wrote:
> >> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> >> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know that a
> >> few exceptions exist, thank you.)
> > Fuder is not a barrel?
>
> Sorry folks, my misinterpretation. I was thinking of new barrels.
>
> Btw, has anyone heard of old barrels becoming TCA-infected?
>
> M.

My impression was that it is mostly old barrels that get TCA
infection. Old barrels get cleaned (to prevent brett and other
bacterial infections), and if done improperly (using something with
clorine, including just chlorinated water) that can lead to systemic
TCA.

So if a winery is Riesling only, and uses fuders, do they always buy
used barrels? My assumption was that occasionally there was a new
fuder, but the size (and probably lack of heavy charring) meant
minimal oak transfer.

"DaleW" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Btw, has anyone heard of old barrels becoming TCA-infected?
>
> M.

-My impression was that it is mostly old barrels that get TCA
-infection. Old barrels get cleaned (to prevent brett and other
-bacterial infections), and if done improperly (using something with
-clorine, including just chlorinated water) that can lead to systemic
-TCA.

The use of Fuders has diminished rapidly in the Mosel - but I had the
impression that they seldom bought new ones. I don't know how they were
cleaned (if ever...:-) but I can't recall many bad bottles throughout 30
years... I'll be going to Mosel next Wednesday - will try to ask older
vintners about that!
Anders

So if a winery is Riesling only, and uses fuders, do they always buy
used barrels? My assumption was that occasionally there was a new
fuder, but the size (and probably lack of heavy charring) meant
minimal oak transfer.

DaleW wrote on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 04:45:54 -0700 (PDT):

> On Sep 25, 3:29�am, Michael Pronay > wrote:
>> "Anders T�rneskog" > wrote:
> >>> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> >>> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know
> >>> that a few exceptions exist, thank you.)
> >> Fuder is not a barrel?
>>
>> Sorry folks, my misinterpretation. I was thinking of new
>> barrels.
>>
>> Btw, has anyone heard of old barrels becoming TCA-infected?
>>
>> M.

> So if a winery is Riesling only, and uses fuders, do they always
> buyused barrels? My assumption was that occasionally there was a
> newfuder, but the size (and probably lack of heavy charring)
> meant minimal oak transfer.

Just for interest, what is the definition of a fuder? I noticed its use
here for the first time a few days ago and forgot to ask but, from the
context and Googling on

fuder wine

I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has cartload
or large wine measure.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Sep 25, 9:41�am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> �DaleW �wrote �on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 04:45:54 -0700 (PDT):
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 25, 3:29 am, Michael Pronay > wrote:
> >> "Anders T rneskog" > wrote:
> > >>> JFTMOR: a riesling -- from wherever it might come -- probably
> > >>> never ever has seen a barrel even by distance. (I know
> > >>> that a few exceptions exist, thank you.)
> > >> Fuder is not a barrel?
>
> >> Sorry folks, my misinterpretation. I was thinking of new
> >> barrels.
>
> >> Btw, has anyone heard of old barrels becoming TCA-infected?
>
> >> M.
> > So if a winery is Riesling only, and uses fuders, do they always
> > buyused barrels? My assumption was that occasionally there was a
> > newfuder, but the size (and probably lack of heavy charring)
> > meant minimal oak transfer.
>
> Just for interest, what is the definition of a fuder? I noticed its use
> here for the first time a few days ago and forgot to ask but, from the
> context and Googling on
>
> �fuder wine
>
> �I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has cartload
> or large wine measure.
>
> --
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've always heard kilolitre, but unsure if that is an exact
definition, or a rough approximation (like with botti, where they're
all big, but how big varies).

"James Silverton" > skrev i melding
...
>
> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has cartload or
> large wine measure.
>
> --
Yes, that is correct.
The size of wine barrels varied between districts, from 800 to 1800 litres -
now it is 900 in Franken, 960 in Mosel, 1000 in Pfalz and 1500 in Baden
according to my sources.
The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).
The biggest wine barrel actually used for wine is to be seen in the castle
of Heidelberg - 221.726 litres !!!
Anders

Anders wrote on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:24:12 +0200:


> "James Silverton" > skrev i
> melding ...
>>
>> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has
>> cartload or large wine measure.
>>
>> --
> Yes, that is correct.
> The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).

Same word, I guess, especially since German speaking Alsace is mentioned
but the usual meaning of "foudre" in French is lightning, as in "coupe
de foudre"

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Anders wrote on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:24:12 +0200:


> "James Silverton" > skrev i
> melding ...
>>
>> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has
>> cartload or large wine measure.
>>
>> --
> Yes, that is correct.
> The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).

Same word, I guess, especially since German speaking Alsace is mentioned
but the usual meaning of "foudre" in French is lightning, as in "coupe
de foudre"

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Anders wrote on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:24:12 +0200:


> "James Silverton" > skrev i
> melding ...
>>
>> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has
>> cartload or large wine measure.
>>
>> --
> Yes, that is correct.
> The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).

Same word, I guess, especially since German speaking Alsace is mentioned
but the usual meaning of "foudre" in French is lightning, as in "coupe
de foudre"

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Anders wrote on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:24:12 +0200:


> "James Silverton" > skrev i
> melding ...
>>
>> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary has
>> cartload or large wine measure.
>>
>> --
> Yes, that is correct.
> The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).

Same word, I guess, especially since German speaking Alsace is mentioned
but the usual meaning of "foudre" in French is lightning, as in "coupe
de foudre"

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James wrote to Anders Tørneskog on Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:42:22 -0400:

>> "James Silverton" > skrev i
>> melding ...
>>>
>>> I guess it is a barrel but my German technical dictionary
>>> has cartload or large wine measure.
>>>
>>> --
>> Yes, that is correct.
>> The French name btw is 'foudre' (Alsace).

> Same word, I guess, especially since German speaking Alsace is
> mentioned but the usual meaning of "foudre" in French is
> lightning, as in "coupe de foudre"


Sorry about the quadruple posts but the ISP hung up and weird things
happened as I tried to close it.
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in news:48db93f9$0
:
>
> So if a winery is Riesling only, and uses fuders, do they always buy
> used barrels? My assumption was that occasionally there was a new
> fuder, but the size (and probably lack of heavy charring) meant
> minimal oak transfer.

Many wineries in the Mosel only purchased fuders when there was such an
event as a marriage or a birth in the family. Most of them are old and they
get cleaned. But I do not know how.

ms