Please express your view on what you think is a fair price to pay for
a bottle of wine at a restaurant.

Vote your opinion at the RESTAURANT WINE MARKUP POLL,
http://vote.sparklit.com/web_poll.spark/834355

It will take only two clicks to cast your answer to this question:
What is the *maximum* restaurant price that you consider reasonable or
fair for a bottle of wine that sells at retail for $30?

You will then see the results to date.

You can also get to the poll at
http://miamiwine.com/

Thank you for taking your valuable time to participate in the poll.

Leo.

On Aug 15, 10:21 am, Leo Bueno >
wrote:
> Please express your view on what you think is a fair price to pay for
> a bottle of wine at a restaurant.
>
> Vote your opinion at the RESTAURANT WINE MARKUP POLL,http://vote.sparklit.com/web_poll.spark/834355
>
> It will take only two clicks to cast your answer to this question:
> What is the *maximum* restaurant price that you consider reasonable or
> fair for a bottle of wine that sells at retail for $30?
>
> You will then see the results to date.
>
> You can also get to the poll athttp://miamiwine.com/
>
> Thank you for taking your valuable time to participate in the poll.
>
> Leo.

There are too many variables in the word "restaurant" to make one
answer. It completely depends on what kind of restaurant it is being
discussed. $30 at retail means $20 cost at wholesale. A very casual
restaurant with few employees and modest overhead and ordinary
amenities (paper napkins, cheap glassware, ceramic plates) could sell
the wine for $30-40. A fine dining restaurant with many employees,
high overhead and luxury amenities (tableclothes, bone china, crystal
glasses etc.) may have to sell it for $55-70.

On Aug 15, 10:49 am, Mark Slater > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 10:21 am, Leo Bueno >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Please express your view on what you think is a fair price to pay for
> > a bottle of wine at a restaurant.
>
> > Vote your opinion at the RESTAURANT WINE MARKUP POLL,http://vote.sparklit.com/web_poll.spark/834355
>
> > It will take only two clicks to cast your answer to this question:
> > What is the *maximum* restaurant price that you consider reasonable or
> > fair for a bottle of wine that sells at retail for $30?
>
> > You will then see the results to date.
>
> > You can also get to the poll athttp://miamiwine.com/
>
> > Thank you for taking your valuable time to participate in the poll.
>
> > Leo.
>
> There are too many variables in the word "restaurant" to make one
> answer. It completely depends on what kind of restaurant it is being
> discussed. $30 at retail means $20 cost at wholesale. A very casual
> restaurant with few employees and modest overhead and ordinary
> amenities (paper napkins, cheap glassware, ceramic plates) could sell
> the wine for $30-40. A fine dining restaurant with many employees,
> high overhead and luxury amenities (tableclothes, bone china, crystal
> glasses etc.) may have to sell it for $55-70.

This article http://online.wsj.com/public/article...=2_1354_topbox
from today's Wall Street Journal explains wine pricing in a fair and
clear way.

On Aug 15, 10:21�am, Leo Bueno >
wrote:
> Please express your view on what you think is a fair price to pay for
> a bottle of wine at a restaurant.
>
> Vote your opinion at the RESTAURANT WINE MARKUP POLL,http://vote.sparklit..com/web_poll.spark/834355
>
> It will take only two clicks to cast your answer to this question:
> What is the *maximum* restaurant price that you consider reasonable or
> fair for a bottle of wine that sells at retail for $30?
>
> You will then see the results to date.
>
> You can also get to the poll athttp://miamiwine.com/
>
> Thank you for taking your valuable time to participate in the poll.
>
> Leo.

I agree with Mark Slater that "it depends". What I think is a fair
markup at a local restaurant with Libby glasses is different from a
top-notch place with Reidel and perfect service. But as 20% of your
voters think that $40 is the MAXIMUM fair price, I'll just say I'm
glad I'm not a Miami restauranteur who aims for decent food/wine/
service.

Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:
>
> Situation in (southern) Europe is different. A $30 wine is a 20€ wine,
> it probably goes for 10€ wholesale. The restaurants in France and
> Italy mark it up x3 or even x4, so you end up paying 30-40€ at the
> restaurant; for restaurants, wine is where they make most of their
> margin. As a result, when stricter laws come in and people start
> drinking mineral water at lunch, their economic model goes down the
> tube, and they wish they had charged more for the food...
>

Mike,

in Spain, a 29,50 eur retail (16% VAT included, so actually 25,43 eur net)
wholesails at 25,50 eur (VAT included) so there is no such a big difference
between wholesale and retail.

At a restaurant it would be typically 44 eur (25,50/1,16)*200% +7% VAT. It
will depend, of course, on the kind of restaurant as some wine-friendly
restaurants will reduce the markup for higher wines while mantaining a
minimum fee of 10 euros for everybottle. Upscale restaurant may add a markup
of 150% instead of 100 eur, but that would be for a minority.

There is not typical of our country to have very deep wine lists with several
vintages and, surprisingly for the rather small mark-ups, the wine stems are
amongst the best you can find in Europe. 90% of the good restaurants have
pretty good stems.

Best,

Santiago

Several years back we spent a full summer in Mallorica. In fact we stayed
at our self owned small townhome (700 year old) in Yoseta.

We loved the fact that the menu del dia (lunch) was so inespensive. Also
the wine list was most reasonable at mostly all places we dined.

We also stayed at a yachting community in Ponte Negro and it was an upscale
place. I remember having a burger and Dom Perignon at a place called
Wellies and the Dom was CHEAP. They serve by the Glass there.

I see no reason why wine here could not be sold at the same price as retail
because they would already be making a nice profit. Guess its just GREED!


"santiago" > wrote in message
. 96.78...
> Mike Tommasi > wrote in
> :
>>
>> Situation in (southern) Europe is different. A $30 wine is a 20? wine,
>> it probably goes for 10? wholesale. The restaurants in France and
>> Italy mark it up x3 or even x4, so you end up paying 30-40? at the
>> restaurant; for restaurants, wine is where they make most of their
>> margin. As a result, when stricter laws come in and people start
>> drinking mineral water at lunch, their economic model goes down the
>> tube, and they wish they had charged more for the food...
>>
>
> Mike,
>
> in Spain, a 29,50 eur retail (16% VAT included, so actually 25,43 eur net)
> wholesails at 25,50 eur (VAT included) so there is no such a big
> difference
> between wholesale and retail.
>
> At a restaurant it would be typically 44 eur (25,50/1,16)*200% +7% VAT. It
> will depend, of course, on the kind of restaurant as some wine-friendly
> restaurants will reduce the markup for higher wines while mantaining a
> minimum fee of 10 euros for everybottle. Upscale restaurant may add a
> markup
> of 150% instead of 100 eur, but that would be for a minority.
>
> There is not typical of our country to have very deep wine lists with
> several
> vintages and, surprisingly for the rather small mark-ups, the wine stems
> are
> amongst the best you can find in Europe. 90% of the good restaurants have
> pretty good stems.
>
> Best,
>
> Santiago

Mike wrote on Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:36:13 +0200:

> santiago wrote:
>> There is not typical of our country to have very deep wine
>> lists with several vintages and, surprisingly for the rather small
>> mark-ups, the wine stems are amongst the best you can
>> find in Europe. 90% of the good restaurants have pretty good stems.

> Santiago

> I noticed that even in the top restaurants in Spain wine
> prices are reasonable. At El Bulli I was surprised to find
> Grange des Pères white at 70€! Still, the wine deals are not a
> good enough reason to go back there... At Can Roca recently
> (now you are talking, far out technique totally focused on
> making sublime incredibly good tasting food) wines were also a
> good deal.

It would seem to me that, if people were willing to pay food prices
sufficient to allow a respectable profit, wine prices could be lower in
the US. The food prices at some of the best restaurants in the US seem
obscene to me given the prices they charge for wine. Sometimes the
popularity of "tasting menus" makes me think that patrons would be
better at an AYCE buffet.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> Mike wrote on Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:36:13 +0200:
>
> > santiago wrote:
> >> There is not typical of our country to have very deep wine
> >> lists with several vintages and, surprisingly for the rather small
> >> mark-ups, the wine stems are amongst the best you can
> >> find in Europe. 90% of the good restaurants have pretty good stems.
> > Santiago
> > I noticed that even in the top restaurants in Spain wine
> > prices are reasonable. At El Bulli I was surprised to find
> > Grange des Pères white at 70€! Still, the wine deals are not a
> > good enough reason to go back there... At Can Roca recently
> > (now you are talking, far out technique totally focused on
> > making sublime incredibly good tasting food) wines were also a
> > good deal.
>
> It would seem to me that, if people were willing to pay food prices
> sufficient to allow a respectable profit, wine prices could be lower in
> the US. The food prices at some of the best restaurants in the US seem
> obscene to me given the prices they charge for wine. Sometimes the
> popularity of "tasting menus" makes me think that patrons would be
> better at an AYCE buffet.
>
> --
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.

On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:

> On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> wrote:
>>
>> --
>>
>> James Silverton
>> Potomac, Maryland
>>
>> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>
> My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.

To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
opener..." :-)

On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
> On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:
>
> > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> > wrote:
>
> >> --
>
> >> James Silverton
> >> Potomac, Maryland
>
> >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>
> > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
>
> To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> opener..." :-)

Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
see.

On Aug 21, 12:52�am, Mark Slater > wrote:
> On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > >> --
>
> > >> James Silverton
> > >> Potomac, Maryland
>
> > >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>
> > > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> > > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
>
> > To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> > paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> > opener..." � �:-)
>
> Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
> restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
> prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
> utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
> see.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm a cheap person. I hate to overspend. But I was astounded that on
the poll that this was linked to 20% of the people voting said $40 was
the MAXIMUM they would ever pay for a bottle that retailed for $30,
and 36% were voting for $50. I'm assuming these people don't view
Outback or Applebees as the pinnacle of fine dining. When I am dining
at a true fine dining establishment, I am generally delighted to find
a good bottle that retails for $30 for $60. I don't think I wasted $30
there. I think for that I get the Riedels, I know I can reject a
corked bottle (and not have to take back to store), I get service.
Sure, I'd rather pay $40, but that's not going to happen.

BTW, Mark, your place is at top of my list if my wife and I go to DC.
She has enjoyed making several of the recipes from your chef. I just
looked at your excellent list. I could be very happy with a $45 bottle
of de Moor Chablis and a glass of Fonbel or the Gevrey, and not spend
much at all. Or I could splurge for a Gaunoux Pommard. You're to be
commended for having such interesting stuff as Bugey-Cerdon and a
whole section of CdN blanc.
"Vignes Franches" 1er Cru, Domaine Chateau du Chorey

On Aug 21, 9:03 am, DaleW > wrote:
> On Aug 21, 12:52 am, Mark Slater > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
>
> > > On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:
>
> > > > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >> --
>
> > > >> James Silverton
> > > >> Potomac, Maryland
>
> > > >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>
> > > > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> > > > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > > > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > > > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
>
> > > To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> > > paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> > > opener..." :-)
>
> > Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
> > restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
> > prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
> > utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
> > see.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm a cheap person. I hate to overspend. But I was astounded that on
> the poll that this was linked to 20% of the people voting said $40 was
> the MAXIMUM they would ever pay for a bottle that retailed for $30,
> and 36% were voting for $50. I'm assuming these people don't view
> Outback or Applebees as the pinnacle of fine dining. When I am dining
> at a true fine dining establishment, I am generally delighted to find
> a good bottle that retails for $30 for $60. I don't think I wasted $30
> there. I think for that I get the Riedels, I know I can reject a
> corked bottle (and not have to take back to store), I get service.
> Sure, I'd rather pay $40, but that's not going to happen.
>
> BTW, Mark, your place is at top of my list if my wife and I go to DC.
> She has enjoyed making several of the recipes from your chef. I just
> looked at your excellent list. I could be very happy with a $45 bottle
> of de Moor Chablis and a glass of Fonbel or the Gevrey, and not spend
> much at all. Or I could splurge for a Gaunoux Pommard. You're to be
> commended for having such interesting stuff as Bugey-Cerdon and a
> whole section of CdN blanc.
> "Vignes Franches" 1er Cru, Domaine Chateau du Chorey

Thanks, Dale. I have some pretty solid connections in Bordeaux and
Burgundy after all these years. Monsieur Germain at Chateau de Chorey
has been very generous to us with his older wines. They have been
stored at the Chateau and are in impeccable condition. Same for
Madame Gaunoux. The 1978's she released to me were out of this world.
The prices I thought were very reasonable considering what the current
vintages are going for. The by-the-glass selections change frequently
and are a great way to introduce people to wines they wouldn't
normally have because of price considerations. I don't use half
bottles, so the glass selections are always at a very high level:
Premier Cru white Burgundy, 2nd label Classified Bordeaux ( I'm using
Les Tourelles de Longueville, Pauillac 2000 now - great bottle!), top
end California chardonnay and Grand Cru RM Champagnes - all by the
glass. It keeps things interesting. Hope you can make it to DC soon!
Cheers,
Mark

In article
>,
DaleW > wrote:

> On Aug 21, 12:52?am, Mark Slater > wrote:
> > On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:
> >
> > > > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > >> --
> >
> > > >> James Silverton
> > > >> Potomac, Maryland
> >
> > > >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
> >
> > > > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> > > > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > > > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > > > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
> >
> > > To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> > > paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> > > opener..." ? ?:-)
> >
> > Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
> > restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
> > prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
> > utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
> > see.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm a cheap person. I hate to overspend. But I was astounded that on
> the poll that this was linked to 20% of the people voting said $40 was
> the MAXIMUM they would ever pay for a bottle that retailed for $30,
> and 36% were voting for $50. I'm assuming these people don't view
> Outback or Applebees as the pinnacle of fine dining. When I am dining
> at a true fine dining establishment, I am generally delighted to find
> a good bottle that retails for $30 for $60. I don't think I wasted $30
> there. I think for that I get the Riedels, I know I can reject a
> corked bottle (and not have to take back to store), I get service.
> Sure, I'd rather pay $40, but that's not going to happen.
>
> BTW, Mark, your place is at top of my list if my wife and I go to DC.
> She has enjoyed making several of the recipes from your chef. I just
> looked at your excellent list. I could be very happy with a $45 bottle
> of de Moor Chablis and a glass of Fonbel or the Gevrey, and not spend
> much at all. Or I could splurge for a Gaunoux Pommard. You're to be
> commended for having such interesting stuff as Bugey-Cerdon and a
> whole section of CdN blanc.
> "Vignes Franches" 1er Cru, Domaine Chateau du Chorey

With you here Dale. I expect to pay in the $40-75 range for a decent
bottle. It is usually cheaper than buying by the glass where many
restaurants get $12-18 for a single glass from a bottle they purchase
for $30 wholesale. That is $50-72 for a $30 bottle. I too have worked in
the restaurant business in the distant past and know that alcohol sales
are a major, sometimes the major, profit center for a restaurant. With
high overhead costs, this may be the only thing keeping some restaurants
in business. I don't mind a 100% markup but when it gets more than that
I balk.

On Aug 21, 10:59 am, Lawrence Leichtman > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> DaleW > wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 12:52?am, Mark Slater > wrote:
> > > On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
>
> > > > On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater > said:
>
> > > > > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton" >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >> --
>
> > > > >> James Silverton
> > > > >> Potomac, Maryland
>
> > > > >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>
> > > > > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous" rant
> > > > > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > > > > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > > > > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
>
> > > > To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> > > > paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> > > > opener..." ? ?:-)
>
> > > Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
> > > restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
> > > prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
> > > utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
> > > see.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'm a cheap person. I hate to overspend. But I was astounded that on
> > the poll that this was linked to 20% of the people voting said $40 was
> > the MAXIMUM they would ever pay for a bottle that retailed for $30,
> > and 36% were voting for $50. I'm assuming these people don't view
> > Outback or Applebees as the pinnacle of fine dining. When I am dining
> > at a true fine dining establishment, I am generally delighted to find
> > a good bottle that retails for $30 for $60. I don't think I wasted $30
> > there. I think for that I get the Riedels, I know I can reject a
> > corked bottle (and not have to take back to store), I get service.
> > Sure, I'd rather pay $40, but that's not going to happen.
>
> > BTW, Mark, your place is at top of my list if my wife and I go to DC.
> > She has enjoyed making several of the recipes from your chef. I just
> > looked at your excellent list. I could be very happy with a $45 bottle
> > of de Moor Chablis and a glass of Fonbel or the Gevrey, and not spend
> > much at all. Or I could splurge for a Gaunoux Pommard. You're to be
> > commended for having such interesting stuff as Bugey-Cerdon and a
> > whole section of CdN blanc.
> > "Vignes Franches" 1er Cru, Domaine Chateau du Chorey
>
> With you here Dale. I expect to pay in the $40-75 range for a decent
> bottle. It is usually cheaper than buying by the glass where many
> restaurants get $12-18 for a single glass from a bottle they purchase
> for $30 wholesale. That is $50-72 for a $30 bottle. I too have worked in
> the restaurant business in the distant past and know that alcohol sales
> are a major, sometimes the major, profit center for a restaurant. With
> high overhead costs, this may be the only thing keeping some restaurants
> in business. I don't mind a 100% markup but when it gets more than that
> I balk.

I serve fine wines by the glass. The glass costs 1/4 of the bottle
price, we serve a 6 oz. pour, which is 1/4 or a bottle, so no
upcharge. I choose not to sell half bottles, so this is the
alternative. Half bottles and wine-by-the-glass compete. Again, the
mark-up has to do with what kind of restaurant you are in.

In article
>,
Mark Slater > wrote:

> On Aug 21, 10:59 am, Lawrence Leichtman > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> > DaleW > wrote:
> > > On Aug 21, 12:52?am, Mark Slater > wrote:
> > > > On Aug 20, 5:55 pm, Ronin > wrote:
> >
> > > > > On 2008-08-19 20:14:31 -0700, Mark Slater >
> > > > > said:
> >
> > > > > > On Aug 18, 4:52 pm, "James Silverton"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> --
> >
> > > > > >> James Silverton
> > > > > >> Potomac, Maryland
> >
> > > > > >> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
> >
> > > > > > My favorite response to the "these wines prices are outrageous"
> > > > > > rant
> > > > > > was spoken by a friend of mine many years ago: "If I take the
> > > > > > tablecloth away, give you a plastic glass and a wine opener to open
> > > > > > the wine, I can sell it to you for half price". Think about it.
> >
> > > > > To which I would probably reply: "the outrageous food prices already
> > > > > paid for the tablecloth, but I'll take the plastic glass and wine
> > > > > opener..." ? ?:-)
> >
> > > > Everything has a cost, including food. Are we talking about fancy
> > > > restaurants or crappy restaurants? The flip side of outrageous food
> > > > prices is outrageous labor costs, food costs, insurance costs, rent,
> > > > utilities etc. etc. Try owning a "nice" restaurant and you'll quickly
> > > > see.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > I'm a cheap person. I hate to overspend. But I was astounded that on
> > > the poll that this was linked to 20% of the people voting said $40 was
> > > the MAXIMUM they would ever pay for a bottle that retailed for $30,
> > > and 36% were voting for $50. I'm assuming these people don't view
> > > Outback or Applebees as the pinnacle of fine dining. When I am dining
> > > at a true fine dining establishment, I am generally delighted to find
> > > a good bottle that retails for $30 for $60. I don't think I wasted $30
> > > there. I think for that I get the Riedels, I know I can reject a
> > > corked bottle (and not have to take back to store), I get service.
> > > Sure, I'd rather pay $40, but that's not going to happen.
> >
> > > BTW, Mark, your place is at top of my list if my wife and I go to DC.
> > > She has enjoyed making several of the recipes from your chef. I just
> > > looked at your excellent list. I could be very happy with a $45 bottle
> > > of de Moor Chablis and a glass of Fonbel or the Gevrey, and not spend
> > > much at all. Or I could splurge for a Gaunoux Pommard. You're to be
> > > commended for having such interesting stuff as Bugey-Cerdon and a
> > > whole section of CdN blanc.
> > > "Vignes Franches" 1er Cru, Domaine Chateau du Chorey
> >
> > With you here Dale. I expect to pay in the $40-75 range for a decent
> > bottle. It is usually cheaper than buying by the glass where many
> > restaurants get $12-18 for a single glass from a bottle they purchase
> > for $30 wholesale. That is $50-72 for a $30 bottle. I too have worked in
> > the restaurant business in the distant past and know that alcohol sales
> > are a major, sometimes the major, profit center for a restaurant. With
> > high overhead costs, this may be the only thing keeping some restaurants
> > in business. I don't mind a 100% markup but when it gets more than that
> > I balk.
>
> I serve fine wines by the glass. The glass costs 1/4 of the bottle
> price, we serve a 6 oz. pour, which is 1/4 or a bottle, so no
> upcharge. I choose not to sell half bottles, so this is the
> alternative. Half bottles and wine-by-the-glass compete. Again, the
> mark-up has to do with what kind of restaurant you are in.

I prefer your charges to what I see ordinarily. Thanks for being a
reasonable restauranteur. Where is your restaurant located and pardon me
if you have already posted that?

Hi
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:08:23 -0700 (PDT), Mark Slater
> wrote:

>I serve fine wines by the glass. The glass costs 1/4 of the bottle
>price, we serve a 6 oz. pour, which is 1/4 of a bottle,

Goodness gracious me!!! That's an enormous quantity. Whatever size of
glass do you use so that the wine can be properly aired? Actually, if
I were to have a different glass of fine wine with each of 4 or 5
courses, which is a perfect dinner for me, then I'd want a FAR smaller
portion. I don't want to down a bottle and a quarter a head over
dinner. And I especially don't want to drink nearly 200 mls of a
dessert wine.

For a multi-course dinner such as I serve, my ideal pour would be
about 100 ml for dry wines and 75ml for sweet. (for the metrically
challenged, divide by 30 to give ounces). These half fill a decent
sized wine glass.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

On Aug 24, 3:51 am, IanH > wrote:
> Hi
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:08:23 -0700 (PDT), Mark Slater
>
> > wrote:
> >I serve fine wines by the glass. The glass costs 1/4 of the bottle
> >price, we serve a 6 oz. pour, which is 1/4 of a bottle,
>
> Goodness gracious me!!! That's an enormous quantity. Whatever size of
> glass do you use so that the wine can be properly aired? Actually, if
> I were to have a different glass of fine wine with each of 4 or 5
> courses, which is a perfect dinner for me, then I'd want a FAR smaller
> portion. I don't want to down a bottle and a quarter a head over
> dinner. And I especially don't want to drink nearly 200 mls of a
> dessert wine.
>
> For a multi-course dinner such as I serve, my ideal pour would be
> about 100 ml for dry wines and 75ml for sweet. (for the metrically
> challenged, divide by 30 to give ounces). These half fill a decent
> sized wine glass.
> --
> All the best
> Fatty from Forges

You're right. If someone orders a glass, they get 6 oz. If someone
orders a tasting menu with wines, I serve 3 oz. Sweet wine is always
served 2 1/2 - 3 oz. The 6 oz. pours are served in a 23 oz. glass for
maximun swirling room. Here's a pictu http://www.replacements.com/webquote/images.htm

Mark

Mark Slater > wrote:

> Here's a pictu http://www.replacements.com/webquote/images.htm

Sorry, can't see nothing except "CLOSE WINDOW".

M.

On Aug 24, 12:13 pm, Michael Pronay > wrote:
> Mark Slater > wrote:
> > Here's a pictuhttp://www.replacements.com/webquote/images.htm
>
> Sorry, can't see nothing except "CLOSE WINDOW".
>
> M.

Sorry, look he http://www.bestwineglass.com/product...php?page_id=41

Hi again Mark,

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 06:21:49 -0700 (PDT), Mark Slater
>> >I serve fine wines by the glass. The glass costs 1/4 of the bottle
>> >price, we serve a 6 oz. pour, which is 1/4 of a bottle,
>>
>> Goodness gracious me!!! That's an enormous quantity. Whatever size of
>> glass do you use so that the wine can be properly aired?

>You're right. If someone orders a glass, they get 6 oz. If someone
>orders a tasting menu with wines, I serve 3 oz. Sweet wine is always
>served 2 1/2 - 3 oz. The 6 oz. pours are served in a 23 oz. glass for
>maximum swirling room.

Thanks for the explanation! I've read a lot that in recent years
serving quantities had increased substantially, and I wondered if this
wasn't an example of it. To be honest, if I were ordering just one
wine, I'd still prefer to have less, but I'm probably in a minority.

Glad we are in pretty close agreement about the ideal serving sizes
for tasting menus and sweet wines.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

Mark Slater > wrote:

>>> Here's a
>>> pictuhttp://www.replacements.com/webquote/images.htm

>> Sorry, can't see nothing except "CLOSE WINDOW".

> Sorry, look he
> http://www.bestwineglass.com/product...ed_wine___set_
> of_6/170.php?page_id=41

Thank you. That's an enourmous glass, holding 702ml filled to the
rim.

Quite interesting. Although I own 6 Riedel Sommelier Grand Cru
Burgundy goblets (a wedding gift from my first marriage 26 years
ago), I have to confess that I have never used them. But then I
drink top class Burgundy extremely rarely (and that would be an
exaggeration, in fact).

M.

Hi Michael,
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:32:34 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote:

>Quite interesting. Although I own 6 Riedel Sommelier Grand Cru
>Burgundy goblets (a wedding gift from my first marriage 26 years
>ago), I have to confess that I have never used them.

I bought a couple of seconds when we were staying in the area on our
way back from Tokaji in (I think) 2000. Jacquie and I went back to a
hotel where I'd stayed when skiiing about 45 years ago, and met the
owner - who I'd dandled on my knee the last time I saw her!

Anyway, she suggested we visit the Riedel factory which was nearby, so
taking a bottle of Austrian Cabernet Sauvignon from the hotel, we went
to ask for a glass tasting. We were sufficiently impressed wth the
increased efficiency of the sommelier glasses as analytical tools to
buy two of each of the Grand Cru Burgundy and Bordeaux glasses as well
as 4 of the Sauternes glasses.

> But then I >drink top class Burgundy extremely rarely (and that would be an
>exaggeration, in fact).

Well, we can do something about that!! Next time you're on your way to
Bordeaux, (especially now the A89 is complete from Brive to Bordeaux)
stop off here overnight and we'll open a decent bottle of Burgundy
(would Henri Gouges Les St Georges '89 or '90 tempt you?) and you can
see for yourself the difference that the glasses can make.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

IanH > wrote:

> Well, we can do something about that!! Next time you're on your
> way to Bordeaux, (especially now the A89 is complete from Brive
> to Bordeaux) stop off here overnight and we'll open a decent
> bottle of Burgundy (would Henri Gouges Les St Georges '89 or '90
> tempt you?) and you can see for yourself the difference that the
> glasses can make.

Excellent idea, Ian, but normally, when travelling to Bordeaux,
I take the plane and hire a car at Mérignac ... thus said, why
not drive to your place and spend a night over there ...? How
about next April, after the "rodéo des primeurs" week organized
by the union des Grands Crus de Bordeaux?

M.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:21:24 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote:

>IanH > wrote:
>> way to Bordeaux, (especially now the A89 is complete from Brive
>> to Bordeaux) stop off here overnight

>Excellent idea, Ian, but normally, when travelling to Bordeaux,
>I take the plane and hire a car at Mérignac ... thus said, why
>not drive to your place and spend a night over there ...? How
>about next April, after the "rodéo des primeurs" week organized
>by the union des Grands Crus de Bordeaux?

Sounds like a plan. You're always welcome here, you know that.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

Perhaps I can come to. I am planing to be in Barcelona and then using train
to France after a few days. Followed by Car to Nice...

I am sure I would be welcom for target practice :-)


"IanH" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:21:24 +0200, Michael Pronay >
> wrote:
>
>>IanH > wrote:
>>> way to Bordeaux, (especially now the A89 is complete from Brive
>>> to Bordeaux) stop off here overnight
>
>>Excellent idea, Ian, but normally, when travelling to Bordeaux,
>>I take the plane and hire a car at Mérignac ... thus said, why
>>not drive to your place and spend a night over there ...? How
>>about next April, after the "rodéo des primeurs" week organized
>>by the union des Grands Crus de Bordeaux?
>
> Sounds like a plan. You're always welcome here, you know that.
> --
> All the best
> Fatty from Forges

Mike Tommasi wrote:

> I'm 1.5 hours before Nice on the coast.

Don't sell yourself short, Mike. You're very Nice.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Mike, about 3.5 years back you assisted me in planing my trip giving me some
ideas on areas in South France.

We had already purchased all the flight and reservations at the place in
Barcelona, few good meals in advance..

Then we cancelled as my Father in law was neurotic over the terror in the
Basque region and trains were involved.

Next Spring is my 30 year wedding aniversary and a milestone birthday for my
wife. So, I am revisiting my old notes and plan for that.

I think you mentioned someone in Banyuls M. Parce? Still got those
connections :-)
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> Perhaps I can come to. I am planing to be in Barcelona and then using
>> train to France after a few days. Followed by Car to Nice...
>
> I'm 1.5 hours before Nice on the coast.
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Thanks Mike,

And if I can remember, you suggested skipping Avignon?
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> Next Spring is my 30 year wedding aniversary and a milestone birthday for
>> my wife. So, I am revisiting my old notes and plan for that.
>
> It's my 25th W A right now, and my 20th year in France...
>
>> I think you mentioned someone in Banyuls M. Parce? Still got those
>> connections :-)
>
> In Barcelona try to dine at La Pantxa del Bisbe, very creative catalan
> cuisine with a japanese bend from a young talented chef, and the price
> will leave you aghast, a very full meal will cost you no more than 20€.
> Never had such good QPR.
>
> If you go by the coast highway you pass Sant Pol de Mar, if you reserve
> well in time you could get a table at what is, despite media hype on a
> place in Rosas, probably the truly most exciting restaurant in Europe, The
> Sant Pau of Carme Ruscalleda. I tried to get in last week but left
> reservations too late.
>
> Also on your route is Girona, a very pretty town and home to the Celler de
> Can Roca, probably the OTHER most exciting place in Europe to eat, I was
> there a few months ago and it was amazing, especially the attention to
> wine and the open mind (did not expect the catalan sommelier to start
> raving about german rieslings).
>
> Both these places use very advanced techniques but unlike the Rosas place
> they don't serve experiments, they serve very finely crafted food that
> tastes truly great, where you can still tell that it is made from peas or
> carrots or meat... :-) It is where creative cuisine should be going.
>
> If you happen by Rosas instead of going to the in place outside of town go
> to a small fish restaurant called Rafa's right in town, a little hole of a
> place but the fish is absolutely fantastic and they have a good wine
> cellar but no list, so ask for your favourite Rias Baixas by name...
>
> Parcé (not the doctor) in Banyuls just started the harvest so they are
> busy now but by the time you come by should be ok...:-) he runs
> Preceptorie de Centernach and Domaine de la Rectorie, both are top in the
> area; Maury and Banyuls of course, but also lots of excellent whites and
> reds. If Marc is busy ask for Silvio, he also knows me.
>
> I would suggest in the same area Clos des Fées of Hervé Bizeul, probably
> makes the very best red in Southern France, on a par with GdP, he is in
> Vingrau ( closdesfees.com ). I have never met him in person but
> corresponded with him, he is an avid blogger.
>
> There is absolutely nothing on the southern French coast even remotely as
> exciting as the eateries in Catalunya.
> OTOH if you stop by Bandol here, we can go taste some really good reds,
> but the obvious place to stop is Chateauneuf du Pape...
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail