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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

Hello,

New to wines, but trying to learn.

I've read that wine bottles should always be stored horizontally.
I guess that this is to keep the cork (if a natural cork) always wet.
a. Are there other reasons also ?

b. What about if the bottle came with a plastic cork substitute ? Horiz.
still desireable ?

And,

c. Once opened, and the natural cork is replaced by one of those plastic
cam-expansion caps, is it still necessary or desireable to store the bottle
horizontally ?

Why ?

Thanks,
Bob


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On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:01:35 -0400, "Robert11" >
wrote:

>I've read that wine bottles should always be stored horizontally.
>I guess that this is to keep the cork (if a natural cork) always wet.
>a. Are there other reasons also ?


No.

The reason to keep the cork wet is so it doesn't shrink and let in
oxygen. For a few years or less it would not make much difference.

>b. What about if the bottle came with a plastic cork substitute ? Horiz.
>still desireable ?


Doesn't really matter. Bottles with plastic corks shouldn't be kept
long anyway. With time they lose their elasticity and let ari in, and
usually bottles with plastic corks would not improve with age much
anyway.

Doesn't matter with screwcaps either, but some screwcapped wine will
keep for several/many years. Depends on the screwcap lining. And the
wine of course.

>c. Once opened, and the natural cork is replaced by one of those plastic
>cam-expansion caps, is it still necessary or desireable to store the bottle
>horizontally ?


I don't know what those caps are like, but I usually store wine
upright in the fridge once opened if possible.. Probably doesn;t make
much diference - usually you shoudl not keep wine very long (more than
a couple of days) once opened anyway.

--
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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

Steve Slatcher wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:01:35 -0400, "Robert11" >
> wrote:
>> c. Once opened, and the natural cork is replaced by one of those plastic
>> cam-expansion caps, is it still necessary or desireable to store the bottle
>> horizontally ?

>
> I don't know what those caps are like, but I usually store wine
> upright in the fridge once opened if possible.. Probably doesn;t make
> much diference - usually you shoudl not keep wine very long (more than
> a couple of days) once opened anyway.
>


Actually, if you do it right, wine can be stored in the fridge for
weeks, maybe even months, with little or no adverse effect. The key is
to make sure there is no oxygen, and none gets in.

What I do (with very good success) is rebottle the remainder in smaller
bottles, so that there is almost no ullage (filled almost to the brim).
I stick a paper clip in the neck and put the cork back (the paper clip
forces a passage for air to escape). Then I pull the paper clip out and
push the cork in a little more (past the nick). There should only be
half an inch or less of air space ("ullage").

I've stored wine for up to two months that way in the fridge with little
or no adverse effect.

Another technique I use is to completely fill a mini-screwcap bottle
(the kind you get in a sixpack of cheap wine) with the leftover, and
screw the cap back on. There's no air except what the wine absorbed
during the pour. This also works very well.

There's a FAQ entry on this, btw, but the FAQ is temporarily down. (you
could google the archives of the newsgroup - skip the "miniFAQ as that's
just a table of contents).

(I'd be interested in other people's success with these, and other,
methods).

Jose
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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?


"Jose" > wrote
> Another technique I use is to completely fill a mini-screwcap bottle (the
> kind you get in a sixpack of cheap wine) with the leftover, and screw the
> cap back on. There's no air except what the wine absorbed during the
> pour. This also works very well.


Thanks for sharing this; I'd never considered re-using these smaller
bottles, I usually just toss them in recycling. I might have assumed those
screwcaps weren't terrible good at sealing the bottle.I would presume
there's no particular reason to store these in a particular orientation,
upright or sideways?

Colin


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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

Colin wrote:
> "Jose" > wrote
>> Another technique I use is to completely fill a mini-screwcap bottle
>> (the kind you get in a sixpack of cheap wine) with the leftover, and
>> screw the cap back on. There's no air except what the wine absorbed
>> during the pour. This also works very well.

>
> Thanks for sharing this; I'd never considered re-using these smaller
> bottles, I usually just toss them in recycling. I might have assumed
> those screwcaps weren't terrible good at sealing the bottle.I would
> presume there's no particular reason to store these in a particular
> orientation, upright or sideways?
>
> Colin


The reason to store wine bottles sideways does not exist with screwcaps.
I store them upright, filled to the brim. I only have one of these which
I keep reusing; it's been a over year and still seals fine. (The other
quarter bottles and half bottles I have are corked; I store these upright
too because for the short amount of time they remain in the fridge, the
cork won't dry out (so far two months has been the longest I've kept a
split, a week is more typical).

Jose


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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

> Jose wrote:
>> The reason to store wine bottles sideways
>> does not exist with screwcaps.
>> I store them upright, filled to the brim.

>
> OK for vertical storage, same here, but you cannot have them filled to
> the brim, the expansion with heat will cause the closure to leak much as
> the corks would have been pushed out. You still need an expansion space.


Never thought of that. But haven't had a problem, perhaps because I keep
them in the fridge, where temperature is pretty constant (and so far,
I've only used screwcaps for whites, which are rebottled at fridge
temperature).

Anybody know the coefficient of expansion for wine?

Jose
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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:49:51 +0200, Mike Tommasi wrote:

> With a standard neck diameter of 1.85cm, this means the liquid will push
> up the neck by 2.67 cm, just over an inch. Much more if it is a high
> octane zin :-)


Really? I know expansion occurs (that's what they taught me in science
school) but that much? So I did an experiment. I took a regular 750,
filled it to the brim with industrial grade hydrogen hydroxide, at 103
degrees F (more or less), and corked it up tight (using my usual split
method of using a wire to let the air out). Then I stuck in the fridge
overnight. The level had dropped a good half to three quarters of an
inch. Wow!

Well, maybe that's just trapped gasses making its way slowly to the
surface, so I put the bottle in the sun and summer air for a few hours,
and the level rose halfway or more to the original level.

Making allowances for the fact that I was using a degenerate form of
alcohol, rather than a carbonated one, and for the imprecision in my
work, I'm convinced.

Funny how the real world works.

I still maintain however that if you start with cool wine, and keep it in
the cooler, that the expansion due to temperature changes will not be
much, since the temperature change will not be much.

And... if you leave no ullage when you cork up a room temperature wine in
a smaller bottle and put it in the fridge, all that will happen is that
as the wine contracts, air may be drawn in which would have otherwise
been trapped by the ullage. So no loss there either.

Jose
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:12:23 +0200, Mike Tommasi wrote:

> If your use room temperature and then store in fridge, but the fridge
> breals down in august, you have a mess...


A small mess. A reasonable risk for short term storage of half and
quarter bottles intended to be drunk within the month or so. Somewhat
less than ideal for long term storage... but then I'm not refilling
bottles for long term storage!

Jose
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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:16:30 +0200
Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> Jose wrote:
> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:12:23 +0200, Mike Tommasi wrote:
> >
> >> If your use room temperature and then store in fridge, but the fridge
> >> breals down in august, you have a mess...

> >
> > A small mess. A reasonable risk for short term storage of half and
> > quarter bottles intended to be drunk within the month or so. Somewhat
> > less than ideal for long term storage... but then I'm not refilling
> > bottles for long term storage!

>
> I understand, you were talking about filling bottles from wine you buy
> in bulk. Honestly, for such short term wine, I find boxes to be the
> best solution. 5 litres and no oxygen all the way down to the last drop.
>


I agree of course. Although there's lots of good wine (most domaines
provide a BiB option now) available in box here in France, in the US
its largely restricted to plonk, or at best very low end quaffers.

-E

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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

Emery Davis > wrote:

>> I understand, you were talking about filling bottles from wine
>> you buy in bulk. Honestly, for such short term wine, I find
>> boxes to be the best solution. 5 litres and no oxygen all the
>> way down to the last drop.


> I agree of course. Although there's lots of good wine (most
> domaines provide a BiB option now) available in box here in
> France, in the US its largely restricted to plonk, or at best
> very low end quaffers.


Not only in the US. Can't speak for the rest of Europe, but for
Austria and Germany that's exactly the case.

M.


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Default Newbie Questions On Corks, etc. ?

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>>> I understand, you were talking about filling bottles from
>>>> wine you buy in bulk. Honestly, for such short term wine, I
>>>> find boxes to be the best solution. 5 litres and no oxygen
>>>> all the way down to the last drop.


>>> I agree of course. Although there's lots of good wine (most
>>> domaines provide a BiB option now) available in box here in
>>> France, in the US its largely restricted to plonk, or at best
>>> very low end quaffers.


>> Not only in the US. Can't speak for the rest of Europe, but for
>> Austria and Germany that's exactly the case.


> I assume you both agree that it is a good way to sell everyday
> wines of really good quality.


Of course.

Back at Vinexpo 2005, Jean Guyon (owner of Tour Haut Caussan &
Ch. Rollan de By, iirc) presented one of these wines (can't
remember which), vintage 2003, iirc, in Prada-designed pink 3 (5?)
liter BiBs. His stand at Vinexpo was entirely made up from these.
Quite colourful, btw!

I asked him about the shelf life span. "The producer of the
BiBs guarantee 15 months after production, and 6 months after
opening."

M., now heading to a 2002 Grüner Veltliner Kabinett (12%) from a
minor producer, Anton & Elfriede Waldschütz (Kamptal, Austria).
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:16:30 +0200, Mike Tommasi wrote:

> I understand, you were talking about filling bottles from wine you buy
> in bulk.


Feh! Phtooey! Ick!

(Pass me a Bud please - I need to rinse my mouth!)

No, I was talking about opening a 750ml bottle of a nice wine, and as I'm
the only one that drinks, finding a way to preserve the rest of the
bottle from the ravages of oxygen while it awaits its next turn at my
palate.

I open a 750, pour half into a 375, half of the remainder into a 185, pop
the rebottles in the fridge and drink the rest. Minimum ullage means
minimum oxygen, and if it's an already-chilled white I'm doing this to,
there should be no problem (and in fact, I have had no problems). If
it's a room temperature red that I am preserving this way, the wine
shrinks and the air that gets in is still less than what I might trap
leaving ullage. So far the only messes I've had have been drips due to
bad pouring technique.

As for box wines... how good is the box (and the plastic inside) at
housing wine over the long term? (Would you cellar a box of nice wine,
if such a thing existed?) I imagine the plastic bag is not as unreactive
as glass.

Jose
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Michael Pronay > wrote:

> M., now heading to a 2002 Grüner Veltliner Kabinett (12%) from a
> minor producer, Anton & Elfriede Waldschütz (Kamptal, Austria).


Strange enough, aftwer removing the capsule: a plastic stopper ...

<grrrr>

But, in contrary to a plastic stoppered 2003 sauvignon from Julius
Steiner (Podersdorf, Neusiedlersee, Burgenland, Austria) which was
DOA, this GV is still quite lively.

M.
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Jose > wrote:

> As for box wines... how good is the box (and the plastic inside)
> at housing wine over the long term? (Would you cellar a box of
> nice wine, if such a thing existed?) I imagine the plastic bag
> is not as unreactive as glass.


See my other posting.

M.
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:52:18 +0200, Michael Pronay wrote:

> I asked him about the shelf life span. "The producer of the BiBs
> guarantee 15 months after production, and 6 months after opening."


That's fine for a wine I'm buying for now, but not for something I may
lay down. I'd be interested in side by side tastings of fifteen month
old wine stored in glass vs box.

"Has this wine been aged?"
"I don't know... what time is it?"

Jose
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