Hello
One of the daughters from this currently matrilinear vigneron in Alsace (in
Kayserberg) visited one of Helsingborg's best restaurants (and, in fact,
deemed among the ten best in Sweden, FWIW). Dinner was suitably divided
between slightly molecular and traditionally spring related (pike perch,
chicken, morells, asparagus, and a sort of blob that you could push around
with the spon and when you bit into it it was filled with something slightly
goey tasting of marshmallows).
1 Muscat Reserve 2006
While this had a fabulous Alsace Muscat nose, on palate it had a, to me, not
pleasant bitterness, and lacked structure.
2 Riesling GC Schlossberg Cuv Se Catherine 2005
[c] Strawcolored
[n] Marked TND, beeswax, honoung, very fresh
[p] Aciditity in attack, slight fizz, good structure, a certain bitterness
in the aftyertaste

3 Riesling GC Sclossberg Cuv Ste Catherine "L'Inédit" 2004
[c] Pale gold
[n] TND, florality - honeysuckle?, candied lemon zest
[p] Also with an acid attack, somewhat lighter in structure, resdiual sugar
(26 g/l), and with the same bitter finish.

Apparently, the second Riesling is only made in exceptional years when the
grapes attain a very high maturity. My own reflection is that they should
both profit from some serious cellar time - what they will be like in ten
years I know not, but as they are, they appear young and undeveloped.

4 PG Cuv Ste Catherine 2006
[c] Straw with green highlights
[n] oatmeal, apricots, orange zest
[p] Acid attack, slight fizz, some RS with (paradoxically) a dry, rather
elegant finish.

5 Pinot noir W 2005
[n] oak, red berries, vegetal notes, red flowers - dried roses?
[p] spicy, cherries, oak, dry finish

The cuvée W (W for Weinbach and "wood") is matured on barriques, one and two
years old, obtained form a producer in Nuit-St-George.
The nose of dried roses will induce me to forgive the oak, but I still
consider Alsace PN as unsuited to oak, even in the comparartively small
dosage this wine has received.

6 PG Altenbourgh VT 2005
[n] Honey, apples, saffron
[p] Sweetness in the attack, fat and acidity, lots of fruit and generous
length
Easily the best wine of this dinner. Very good balance for a PG VT, an
integration of acidity and sweetness.
Altenbough is not a GC, it is a lieu-dite.

7 Gwz GC Furstentum VT 2005
[n] Touch of wormwood? Bitter orange, grape fruit and english roses.
[p] A certain oilyness, sweet, little acidity, some bitterness on the
finish, and a certain fieryness.

During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for each wine,
on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price list at home -
however, they do not have one. I searched their web site
(www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any mention of anything as
gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps slightly too refined in my never very
humble opinion.
OK, so some producers do not have a web site at all.
These were our thoughts:
1 EU 0 (we wouldn't buy it)
2 EU 15 (no way is this going at under EU 20, but never mind)
3 As #1
4 EU 14
5 As #1
6 EU 22
7 EU 18

If this gives the impression of being slightly underwhelmed, weeeeeeell ...

Cheers

Nils

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for
> each wine, on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price
> list at home - however, they do not have one. I searched their
> web site (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any
> mention of anything as gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps
> slightly too refined in my never very humble opinion.

To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the
homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne
house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect
something else from a top Alsace producer?

M.

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>> To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the
>> homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne
>> house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect
>> something else from a top Alsace producer?
>>
>
> Well, yes. Why do I?
> AAMF, I looked into it, out of curiosity - Chapoutier has a a clear list of
> prices, while Guigal has not. Hugel has a price list, Trimbach has not. Zind
> Humbrecht apparently do not have a web site at all. Nor does Ostertag.
> Marcel Deiss' web site is beautiful and extremely informative, including
> where the grapes of each wine has been harvested - but does not contain a
> price list.
> Smith Haut Lafitte has a price list that you download.
> Chave has no web site, while Delas has a hugely informative site that will
> place the wine into a sensorial matrix, tell me about the terroir, the
> yield, the respect of the terroir and so on - but not what price the wines
> are.
> I could go on.
> My point being, if you feel that, as a producer, you want to inform
> concerning your production, your philosophy, your lineage, your vineyards,
> and show lots of pictures of the, admittedly often breathtaking,
> surroundings of the vineyards (at least that is the case in Alsace,
> Burgundy, and the Northern Rhone), then - why not a list of prices if you
> sell off the cellar door? Provided, of course, that you do sell off the
> cellar door. Drouhin and Jadot in Bourgogne do not and have no price list,
> Coche-Bizouard (admittedly not in the top rank) do and have.
> Perhaps Weinbach do not sell directly, on the domaine, I don't know.
> What's your opinion?
>

Hi Nils,

I think the French have a thing when it comes to talking about money
generally, even more so when it comes to discussing the costs of "luxury
goods."

Perhaps this dates to the revolution. In the US or UK having a nice
house or
car is a sign of success; here it moves you up in the queue for the
guillotine!
So many beautiful properties are hidden behind rather high, insalubrious
looking walls.

When you have workmen over to discuss a potential project, they will
never talk
money at all, instead preferring to send a written estimate. Difficult
to iterate when
you're trying to see what will be possible in a fixed budget.

Real estate is often listed without price, even when not particularly
expensive. Even
apartment rentals are frequently listed without price. If you have to
ask... I think the
assumption is that we all know the market, after all.

I too find the lack of "transparency" in pricing annoying, but I think
it's cultural and
extends to any number of areas.

-E

On Apr 14, 5:06�am, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote:
> Hello
> One of the daughters from this currently matrilinear vigneron in Alsace (in
> Kayserberg) visited one of Helsingborg's best restaurants (and, in fact,
> deemed among the ten best in Sweden, FWIW). Dinner was suitably divided
> between slightly molecular and traditionally spring related (pike perch,
> chicken, morells, asparagus, and a sort of blob that you could push around
> with the spon and when you bit into it it was filled with something slightly
> goey tasting of marshmallows).
> 1 Muscat Reserve 2006
> While this had a fabulous Alsace Muscat nose, on palate it had a, to me, not
> pleasant bitterness, and lacked structure.
> 2 Riesling GC Schlossberg Cuv Se Catherine 2005
> [c] Strawcolored
> [n] Marked TND, beeswax, honoung, very fresh
> [p] Aciditity in attack, slight fizz, good structure, a certain bitterness
> in the aftyertaste
>
> 3 Riesling GC Sclossberg Cuv Ste Catherine "L'In�dit" 2004
> [c] Pale gold
> [n] TND, florality - honeysuckle?, candied lemon zest
> [p] Also with an acid attack, somewhat lighter in structure, resdiual sugar
> (26 g/l), and with the same bitter finish.
>
> Apparently, the second Riesling is only made in exceptional years when the
> grapes attain a very high maturity. My own reflection is that they should
> both profit from some serious cellar time - what they will be like in ten
> years I know not, but as they are, they appear young and undeveloped.
>
> 4 PG Cuv Ste Catherine 2006
> [c] Straw with green highlights
> [n] oatmeal, apricots, orange zest
> [p] Acid attack, slight fizz, some RS with (paradoxically) a dry, rather
> elegant finish.
>
> 5 Pinot noir W 2005
> [n] oak, red berries, vegetal notes, red flowers - dried roses?
> [p] spicy, cherries, oak, dry finish
>
> The cuv�e W (W for Weinbach and "wood") is matured on barriques, one and two
> years old, obtained form a producer in Nuit-St-George.
> The nose of dried roses will induce me to forgive the oak, but I still
> consider Alsace PN as unsuited to oak, even in the comparartively small
> dosage this wine has received.
>
> 6 PG Altenbourgh VT 2005
> [n] Honey, apples, saffron
> [p] Sweetness in the attack, fat and acidity, lots of fruit and generous
> length
> Easily the best wine of this dinner. Very good balance for a PG VT, an
> integration of acidity and sweetness.
> Altenbough is not a GC, it is a lieu-dite.
>
> 7 Gwz GC Furstentum VT 2005
> [n] Touch of wormwood? Bitter orange, grape fruit and english roses.
> [p] A certain oilyness, sweet, little acidity, some bitterness on the
> finish, �and a certain fieryness.
>
> During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for each wine,
> on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price list at home -
> however, they do not have one. I searched their web site
> (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any mention of anything as
> gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps slightly too refined in my never very
> humble opinion.
> OK, so some producers do not have a web site at all.
> These were our thoughts:
> 1 EU 0 (we wouldn't buy it)
> 2 EU 15 (no way is this going at under EU 20, but never mind)
> 3 As #1
> 4 EU 14
> 5 As #1
> 6 EU 22
> 7 EU 18
>
> If this gives the impression of being slightly underwhelmed, weeeeeeell ....
>
> Cheers
>
> Nils

I like Weinbach more than you seem to, but pricing keeps it out of my
cellar. But they sell enough I doubt they need to sell ex-cellar, very
popular.

>
> To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the
> homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne
> house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect
> something else from a top Alsace producer?
>

Well, yes. Why do I?
AAMF, I looked into it, out of curiosity - Chapoutier has a a clear list of
prices, while Guigal has not. Hugel has a price list, Trimbach has not. Zind
Humbrecht apparently do not have a web site at all. Nor does Ostertag.
Marcel Deiss' web site is beautiful and extremely informative, including
where the grapes of each wine has been harvested - but does not contain a
price list.
Smith Haut Lafitte has a price list that you download.
Chave has no web site, while Delas has a hugely informative site that will
place the wine into a sensorial matrix, tell me about the terroir, the
yield, the respect of the terroir and so on - but not what price the wines
are.
I could go on.
My point being, if you feel that, as a producer, you want to inform
concerning your production, your philosophy, your lineage, your vineyards,
and show lots of pictures of the, admittedly often breathtaking,
surroundings of the vineyards (at least that is the case in Alsace,
Burgundy, and the Northern Rhone), then - why not a list of prices if you
sell off the cellar door? Provided, of course, that you do sell off the
cellar door. Drouhin and Jadot in Bourgogne do not and have no price list,
Coche-Bizouard (admittedly not in the top rank) do and have.
Perhaps Weinbach do not sell directly, on the domaine, I don't know.
What's your opinion?
Cheers
Nils

Hello Dale
I think the wines presented at this dinner were too young. Particularly the
Rieslings.
And no doubt you, and Michael, are right - this is one of the greatest
producers in Alsace, lots of people agree to that. I have the same problem
with Trimbach, if a problem it is. Saves me money, of course.
Cheers
Nils

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> What's your opinion?

That I never encountered price list on top producers' homepages.

But thank you for pointing out that Chapoutier, Hugel, Deiss and
SHL do have price lists. Didn't know that. Also don't know whether
Faller sells ex-cellars to private customers.

M.

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> And no doubt you, and Michael, are right - this is one of the
> greatest producers in Alsace, lots of people agree to that. I
> have the same problem with Trimbach, if a problem it is. Saves
> me money, of course.

Right you are.

Then, otoh, I live in a country where many producers, especially
from 2nd or 3rd rank, do deliver wine free of charge to Vienna.

Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or two?

M.

"Michael Pronay" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:
>
>> What's your opinion?
>
> That I never encountered price list on top producers' homepages.
>
> But thank you for pointing out that Chapoutier, Hugel, Deiss and
> SHL do have price lists. Didn't know that. Also don't know whether
> Faller sells ex-cellars to private customers.

Sorry, I was unclear - Deiss did not have a price list, but their web site
is very beautiful.

Cheers

Nils

> Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or two?

<big grin> Love to, but, not in the foreseeable future! The idea is tempting
though ... you are not, perchance, heading in the direction of Sweden?

Cheers

Nils

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:02:29 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote:

>"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:
>
>> During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for
>> each wine, on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price
>> list at home - however, they do not have one. I searched their
>> web site (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any
>> mention of anything as gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps
>> slightly too refined in my never very humble opinion.

>To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the
>homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne
>house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect
>something else from a top Alsace producer?

Well I think - with respect - you are being a little disengenuous
here. The aforementioned 1er cru classé don't sell direct to the
public, so it would be silly to publish prices. I would be surprised
if a Grande Marque Champagne did either. However, when I went to taste
at the Fallers, I was able to buy from the domaine without any
difficulty - other than the overweaning arrogance of the members of
the family. So that's one à priori reason to publish a price list.

The reason I say you're being disengenuous is that - in my opinion you
know perfectly well that the REAL reason they don't publish their
prices is for the same reason it's hard to find ANY prices online on
manufacturers websites in France. The absence of recommended retail
price is there to allow retailers to sell at any price they like, in
my view. I've never been to a country where the dictum 'caveat emptor'
was as true as it is in France.

And what is REALLY sad is that many winemakers don't seem to see how
much more they'd sell if they were open and upfront about their
prices.

--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

IanH wrote:

> Well I think - with respect - you are being a little disengenuous
> here. The aforementioned 1er cru classé don't sell direct to the
> public, so it would be silly to publish prices. I would be surprised
> if a Grande Marque Champagne did either. However, when I went to taste
> at the Fallers, I was able to buy from the domaine without any
> difficulty - other than the overweaning arrogance of the members of
> the family. So that's one à priori reason to publish a price list.

Good point, Ian. Few regions are as insulated from their customer base
as are the Bordelais.

[...]
> And what is REALLY sad is that many winemakers don't seem to see how
> much more they'd sell if they were open and upfront about their
> prices.

Well, perhaps the situation is a bit like that faced by the wine
importer Kermit Lynch in the US: his retail store carries the _highest_
prices for his own imports. Why? Because, if he sold them for less,
he'd never be able to sell his wines to the distributors who are his
major customer as they'd view him as undercutting their sales. Since I
know that vignerons in France sell their wines for less than they can be
found at retail (a commendable and logical practice, by the by) they
might feel constrained to not advertise that fact and thereby alienate
the major outlet for their wines.

Just a thought,
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>> Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or
>>> two?

>> <big grin> Love to, but, not in the foreseeable future! The
>> idea is tempting though ... you are not, perchance, heading in
>> the direction of Sweden?

Not for the moment either ... :-(

> Maybe for the grape harvest... :-)

Nonono.

I've done grape harvesting only once, maybe ine minutes during
a press trip to Pape Clément, then recently acquired by Bernard
Magrez. Must have been in September ... was it 1988? Can't recall
exactly.

I harvested one grape of sauvignon and immediately decided never
ever even thinking about making my own wine, not even as a hobby,
period.

M.

IanH > wrote:

> However, when I went to taste at the Fallers, I was able to buy
> from the domaine without any difficulty - other than the
> overweaning arrogance of the members of the family.

Very well put, Ian, especially the second part of the sentence.

M.