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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

I'd come across several of them.
Example:
1) Andre Pink Champagne California
2) Cook's Brut Champagne
3) Korbel Brut
4) Piper Sonoma Brut
What's the latest wine law or agreement?
Thanks
Ray


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On Mar 18, 11:19*am, "Raymond" > wrote:
> I'd come across several of them.
> Example:
> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
> 3) Korbel Brut
> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
> What's the latest wine law or agreement?
> Thanks
> Ray


No, it's my understanding that champagne comes only from France. It's
known by other names in other regions (i.e., "cava" in Spain).
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On Mar 18, 12:19�pm, "Raymond" > wrote:
> I'd come across several of them.
> Example:
> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
> 3) Korbel Brut
> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
> What's the latest wine law or agreement?
> Thanks
> Ray


I believe the ATF's successor (can't remember their designation)
allows grandfathered use of "semi-generic" terms such as Champagne,
Chablis, Chianti, etc domestically. They are not supposed to be
exported, and I believe a load of Andre was dramatically destroyed in
the EU last year.

Does Piper Sonoma really say Champagne? I'd be very surprised. I
thought the only holdouts were industrial crap like Korbel, Cooks,
Andre.

Brut of course is a non-geographic designation, and I have never heard
of complaints about that usage.
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

"Kamakazee" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 18, 11:19 am, "Raymond" > wrote:
> I'd come across several of them.
> Example:
> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
> 3) Korbel Brut
> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
> What's the latest wine law or agreement?
> Thanks
> Ray


No, it's my understanding that champagne comes only from France. It's
known by other names in other regions (i.e., "cava" in Spain).


>>>>


More specifically, only from the Champagne region of france, other ferench
sparkling wines include;

a.. Crémant d'Alsace
a.. Crémant de Bordeaux
a.. Crémant de Bourgogne
a.. Crémant de Die
a.. Crémant du Jura
a.. Crémant de Limoux
a.. Crémant de Loire
a..
a.. pk


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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:19:59 +0800, "Raymond" >
wrote:

>What's the latest wine law or agreement?


Certain US brands are allowed to use protected names under the
so-called grandfather clause in the agreement with the EU. More detals
are he
http://www.practicalwinery.com/MayJu...ayJune07p5.htm
I believe that is the latest state of agreement, but am not 100% sure.

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

DaleW > wrote in news:478a7712-b981-486f-a3a3-e67a79ebacb0
@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 18, 12:19�pm, "Raymond" > wrote:
>> I'd come across several of them.
>> Example:
>> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
>> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
>> 3) Korbel Brut
>> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
>> What's the latest wine law or agreement?
>> Thanks
>> Ray

>
> I believe the ATF's successor (can't remember their designation)
> allows grandfathered use of "semi-generic" terms such as Champagne,
> Chablis, Chianti, etc domestically. They are not supposed to be
> exported, and I believe a load of Andre was dramatically destroyed in
> the EU last year.
>
> Does Piper Sonoma really say Champagne? I'd be very surprised. I
> thought the only holdouts were industrial crap like Korbel, Cooks,
> Andre.
>
> Brut of course is a non-geographic designation, and I have never heard
> of complaints about that usage.


As far as I can tell, it's still the ATF:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/alctob_pub/be...l/chapter5.pdf

Regarding the term CHAMPAGNE, it is in the SPARKLING WINE class, defined as
- Wine containing more than 0.392 grams per 100 ml carbon dioxide
resulting solely from secondary fermentation in a closed container
- "Sparkling Wine" is sparkling grape wine. Sparkling citrus,
fruit and agricultural wines must be further identified, e.g., "Sparkling
Peach Wine";

the Type being CHAMPAGNE, defined thus:
- "Grape wine refermented in glass containers of one gallon or less
capacity"
(I reckon they capitalize to avoid the Champagne/champagne disagreement)

And the Class CHAMPAGNE is footnoted as
- "Sufficient as class and type designation. Also, classified as a
SEMI-GENERIC name. (For information on semi-generic names, see 27 CFR
4.24.)
- A semi-generic named wine not from the origin indicated by the name,
e.g., "Champagne" not from France, must also be labeled with an appellation
of origin. (For appellation of origin requirements see 27 CFR 4.25a)"

I note that the Class ASTI SPUMANTE must be "made in Italy" so there are
some regional distinctions, and the Class IMITATION WINE gives me *the
fear*! O_o

d.

Oh, and Piper Sonoma's label says "Méthode Champenoise"; it looks like
*most* of the Champagne houses with California branches label their wines
as "California Sparkling Wine".

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

DaleW wrote on Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:55:05 -0700 (PDT):

D> On Mar 18, 12:19�pm, "Raymond" > wrote:
??>> I'd come across several of them.
??>> Example:
??>> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
??>> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
??>> 3) Korbel Brut
??>> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
??>> What's the latest wine law or agreement?
??>> Thanks
??>> Ray

D> I believe the ATF's successor (can't remember their
D> designation) allows grandfathered use of "semi-generic"
D> terms such as Champagne, Chablis, Chianti, etc domestically.
D> They are not supposed to be exported, and I believe a load
D> of Andre was dramatically destroyed in the EU last year.

D> Does Piper Sonoma really say Champagne? I'd be very
D> surprised. I thought the only holdouts were industrial crap
D> like Korbel, Cooks, Andre.

Cooks and Andre are Charmat (tank) process wines and indicate
that on the label but Korbel is fermented in the bottle and is
not bad at all, IMHO. It is a pity that no-one will risk a
public blind tasting like the "Judgment of Paris." The next best
thing was Consumer Reports tasting of California products where
the wines produced by French-owned companies came out at the
top.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Raymond wrote:
> I'd come across several of them.
> Example:
> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
> 3) Korbel Brut
> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
> What's the latest wine law or agreement?


There is no US law (yet) that prevents such labeling, but EU law forbids
it so such wine can't be imported to the EU. Recently, a shipment of
Andre "Champagne" was confiscated and destroyed in Belgium. Here's a
link to an article about it:

http://www.wein-plus.com/magazine/in...llnews&nr=4312

and here's the footage of the destruction, for those voyeurs among us:

http://www.flow-films.com/materials/champagne.wmv

Mark Lipton

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:58:09 +0000, Steve Slatcher
> wrote:

>Certain US brands are allowed to use protected names under the
>so-called grandfather clause in the agreement with the EU. More detals
>are he
>http://www.practicalwinery.com/MayJu...ayJune07p5.htm
>I believe that is the latest state of agreement, but am not 100% sure.


Or for the actual agreement, and official explanation:
http://www.ttb.gov/agreements/us_ec_...greement.shtml

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:13:40 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Raymond wrote:
>> I'd come across several of them.
>> Example:
>> 1) Andre Pink Champagne California
>> 2) Cook's Brut Champagne
>> 3) Korbel Brut
>> 4) Piper Sonoma Brut
>> What's the latest wine law or agreement?

>
>There is no US law (yet) that prevents such labeling,


But it's forbidden for new brands, isn't it? Or did the US never
actually get around to passing the legislation they agreed to?

>but EU law forbids it so such wine can't be imported to the EU.


Hmm, apparently so. I thought that if a label was legal in the US it
could be exported to the EU, but I forgot about all that "Champagne".

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

PK wrote:

> More specifically, only from the Champagne region of france, other
> ferench sparkling wines include;


It's absurd to me. French wine producers want to use the name Zinfandel
because of the huge success it's had in California and elsewhere in the
USA. Yet, they don't want the USA to use any names associated with
French wines.
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Miles wrote:
> PK wrote:
>
>> More specifically, only from the Champagne region of france, other
>> ferench sparkling wines include;

>
>
> It's absurd to me. French wine producers want to use the name Zinfandel
> because of the huge success it's had in California and elsewhere in the
> USA. Yet, they don't want the USA to use any names associated with
> French wines.


Untrue for several reasons, Miles. Firstly, I've yet to hear of a
French producer wanting to use the Zinfandel name: it's mostly been
Italians who work with Primitivo AFAICT. Secondly, it's a question of
apples and oranges: Chamapagne is a _place_ name, like Napa or Sonoma;
Zinfandel is a varietal name. Have the French ever complained about our
calling wine Pinot Noir or Syrah? No, they haven't. Have we ever
complained about wine from elsewhere labeled "Napa"? Just ask Fred
Franzia (then duck). It all boils down to deceptive labeling: wine
that's not from Champagne (or Napa) is deceptively labeled if it bears
that name. Zinfandel from wherever isn't deceptively labeled if what's
in the bottle is indeed Zinfandel. Get it?

Mark Lipton

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Mike Tommasi wrote:

> However, it is true that Italians using the name Zinfandel or
> Californians using the name Primitivo could be accused of using
> tactics that may be legal but are certainly not very "nice", let's
> say it is not very sportsmanlike, I would go so far as to say it is
> berlusconian...


LOL

> The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
> recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a
> place, to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an
> Italian I would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.


Same for me.
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
news:w2VDj.6604$%Y2.4505@trnddc08...
>
> Cooks and Andre are Charmat (tank) process wines and indicate that on the
> label but Korbel is fermented in the bottle and is not bad at all, IMHO.
> It is a pity that no-one will risk a public blind tasting like the
> "Judgment of Paris." The next best thing was Consumer Reports tasting of
> California products where the wines produced by French-owned companies
> came out at the top.



some time ago (sorry I have not got a reference, but my source was a senior
WSET tutor) a "champagne" tasting in Paris was carried out in two stages:

1. all wines blind - a particular wine came top


2. all wines "open" - the same wine came bottom

the wine in question:

Nyetimber, produced in West Sussex, England
http://www.nyetimber.com/


more info on Nyetimber:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...28/nwine28.xml
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/tasting...lingwine.shtml

pk

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> PK wrote:
>> some time ago (sorry I have not got a reference, but my source was a
>> senior WSET tutor) a "champagne" tasting in Paris was carried out in two
>> stages:
>>
>> 1. all wines blind - a particular wine came top
>>
>>
>> 2. all wines "open" - the same wine came bottom
>>
>> the wine in question:
>>
>> Nyetimber, produced in West Sussex, England
>> http://www.nyetimber.com/

>
> If it's from England, it's probably terrible.



most are but Nyetimber is up there with the best champagnes -

pk



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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Vilco wrote:

>> The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
>> recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a
>> place, to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an
>> Italian I would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.


As far as I see, all the Italian Zinfandel is being sold in the US.
Is it time for Gallo and Bronco to market US made Primitivo (out of
Zinfandel grapes) in Italy?
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Bill Loftin wrote:

> As far as I see, all the Italian Zinfandel is being sold in the US.
> Is it time for Gallo and Bronco to market US made Primitivo (out of
> Zinfandel grapes) in Italy?


They may already be doing that, for all that I know. For my part, I'd
like to see some *quality* Zinfandels from Ridge or Seghesio marketed to
Puglia and Manduria so that they can see the heights that "Primitivo"
can achieve in different terroir ;-)

Mark Lipton

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"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Loftin wrote:
>
> can achieve in different terroir ;-



Semantic mode on/

Surely, given that terroir is a mix of climate, soil and topography, it
should be "with a different terroir" not "in"



pk

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PK wrote:

>> can achieve in different terroir ;-

>
>
> Semantic mode on/
>
> Surely, given that terroir is a mix of climate, soil and topography, it
> should be "with a different terroir" not "in"


Good call. I'm enough of a pedant to appreciate the distinction.

Mark Lipton

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On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:23:07 +0100, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
>recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a place,
>to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an Italian I
>would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.


They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot Noir, Gris
and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same clones of that
variety, and may be totally different clonally. Irrespective of the
legalities, I'd prefer it if the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

--
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On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:18:06 -0000, "PK" >
wrote:

> Nyetimber is up there with the best champagnes -


I think that is overstating the case, but certainly the better
vintages of Nyetimber compare well with Champagnes of a similar price.
And stylistically it is very similar.

--
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:34:23 +0000:

??>> The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and
??>> officially recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is
??>> definitely tied to a place, to the rich history and
??>> culture of wine in America. As an Italian I would never
??>> buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.

SS> They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot
SS> Noir, Gris and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same
SS> clones of that variety, and may be totally different
SS> clonally. Irrespective of the legalities, I'd prefer it if
SS> the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? It has
no obvious meaning to me.


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:01:16 GMT, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

>Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? It has
>no obvious meaning to me.


I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar to each
other, but not closely related to the clones of Pimitivo in Italy.

Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal selection in
California and Italy could have effectively produced two very
different grapes for practical purposes. In the same way that Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris are practically different for example, despite
the fact that they technically belong to the same variety.

It's pure speculation that the clones are very different, but I bet
they are not the same clones both sides of the Atlantic. As far as I
know no one has done the research.

But it could be that the differences between California Zin and
Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

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BTW - this is a good thread on Zinfandel and Primitivo
http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/...t=9733&p=77424

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On Mar 19, 5:52�pm, Steve Slatcher > wrote:
> BTW - this is a good thread on Zinfandel and Primitivohttp://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9733&...
>
> --
> Steve Slatcherhttp://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher


This is too.

http://www.zinfandel.org/about_zin/zindev.htm


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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> Methode Champenoise is also prohibited by European law.


True.

> The correct term is Methode Classique.


Don't think I've ever seen that.

What I do encounter is "Méthode Traditionelle".

M.
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Steve Slatcher > wrote:

>> There is no US law (yet) that prevents such labeling,


> But it's forbidden for new brands, isn't it?


AFAIK: yes.

M.
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Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

??>> Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ?
??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.

SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar
SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
SS> Pimitivo in Italy.

SS> Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
SS> selection in California and Italy could have effectively
SS> produced two very different grapes for practical purposes.
SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
SS> practically different for example, despite the fact that
SS> they technically belong to the same variety.

SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
SS> Atlantic. As far as I know no one has done the research.

SS> But it could be that the differences between California Zin
SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
organism whose genetic information is identical to that from
which it was created.

I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how you
can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
describe a process of selection that might produce different
varieties.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> �Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:
>
> �??>> Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ?
> �??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.
>
> �SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar
> �SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
> �SS> Pimitivo in Italy.
>
> �SS> �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
> �SS> selection in California and Italy could have effectively
> �SS> produced two very different grapes for practical purposes.
> �SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
> �SS> practically different for example, despite the fact that
> �SS> they technically belong to the same variety.
>
> �SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
> �SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
> �SS> Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the research.
>
> �SS> But it could be that the differences between California Zin
> �SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.
>
> I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
> replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
> organism whose genetic information is identical to that �from
> which it was created.
>
> I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
> Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
> sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
> to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how you
> can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
> beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
> form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
> describe a process of selection that might produce different
> varieties.
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole Meredith's
explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a
result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that
occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new
vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to
the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations
accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other."

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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

"DaleW" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"
>
wrote:
> �Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:
>
> �??>> Would you please expand on "totally different clonally"
> ?
> �??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.
>
> �SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be
> similar
> �SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
> �SS> Pimitivo in Italy.
>
> �SS> �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
> �SS> selection in California and Italy could have effectively
> �SS> produced two very different grapes for practical
> purposes.
> �SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
> �SS> practically different for example, despite the fact that
> �SS> they technically belong to the same variety.
>
> �SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
> �SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
> �SS> Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the research.
>
> �SS> But it could be that the differences between California
> Zin
> �SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to
> terroir.
>
> I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
> replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
> organism whose genetic information is identical to that �from
> which it was created.
>
> I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
> Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
> sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
> to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how
> you
> can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
> beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
> form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
> describe a process of selection that might produce different
> varieties.
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole
Meredith's
explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises
as a
result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual)
that
occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for
new
vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation
survives to
the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The
mutations
accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each
other."

"Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a
clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might
differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to
scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U.
Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.



--
Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland



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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Mar 20, 10:58Â*am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> "DaleW" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"
> >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > �Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

>
> > �??>> Would you please expand on "totally different clonally"
> > ?
> > �??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.

>
> > �SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be
> > similar
> > �SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
> > �SS> Pimitivo in Italy.

>
> > �SS> �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
> > �SS> selection in California and Italy could have effectively
> > �SS> produced two very different grapes for practical
> > purposes.
> > �SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
> > �SS> practically different for example, despite the fact that
> > �SS> they technically belong to the same variety.

>
> > �SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
> > �SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
> > �SS> Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the research.

>
> > �SS> But it could be that the differences between California
> > Zin
> > �SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to
> > terroir.

>
> > I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
> > replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
> > organism whose genetic information is identical to that �from
> > which it was created.

>
> > I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
> > Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
> > sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
> > to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how
> > you
> > can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
> > beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
> > form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
> > describe a process of selection that might produce different
> > varieties.

>
> > James Silverton
> > Potomac, Maryland

>
> > E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> > not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

>
> Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole
> Meredith's
> explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises
> as a
> result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual)
> that
> occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
> otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
> carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for
> new
> vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation
> survives to
> the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The
> mutations
> accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each
> other."
>
> "Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a
> clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might
> differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to
> scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U.
> Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I think Carole has retired in last couple years from UC-Davis, but she
is probably considered the top expert on grape genetics in the world.
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

"DaleW" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 20, 10:58 am, "James Silverton"
>
wrote:
> "DaleW" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"
> >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > �Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

>
> > �??>> Would you please expand on "totally different
> > clonally"
> > ?
> > �??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.

>
> > �SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be
> > similar
> > �SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
> > �SS> Pimitivo in Italy.

>
> > �SS> �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
> > �SS> selection in California and Italy could have
> > effectively
> > �SS> produced two very different grapes for practical
> > purposes.
> > �SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
> > �SS> practically different for example, despite the fact
> > that
> > �SS> they technically belong to the same variety.

>
> > �SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very
> > different,
> > �SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of
> > the
> > �SS> Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the
> > research.

>
> > �SS> But it could be that the differences between California
> > Zin
> > �SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to
> > terroir.

>
> > I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
> > replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
> > organism whose genetic information is identical to that
> > �from
> > which it was created.

>
> > I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
> > Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the
> > DNA
> > sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may
> > try
> > to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how
> > you
> > can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
> > beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
> > form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
> > describe a process of selection that might produce different
> > varieties.

>
> > James Silverton
> > Potomac, Maryland

>
> > E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> > not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

>
> Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole
> Meredith's
> explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises
> as a
> result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual)
> that
> occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
> otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
> carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood
> for
> new
> vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation
> survives to
> the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The
> mutations
> accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each
> other."
>
> "Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a
> clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might
> differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to
> scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U.
> Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


DaleW> I think Carole has retired in last couple years from
UC-Davis,
DaleW> but she is probably considered the top expert on grape
genetics
DaleW> in the world.

I will have to search libraries for her books since of the two
relevant ones available on Amazon, one is out of my range at
$202 and the other is unavailable. Thanks.


--
Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

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Default Clonal variation, semantics and epigenetics ( was Can SparklingWine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?)

James Silverton wrote:

> Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole Meredith's
> explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a
> result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that
> occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
> otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
> carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new
> vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to
> the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations
> accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other."
>
> "Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a clone
> (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might differ. Perhaps
> to enlighten me, you know some references to scientific papers or
> published books by authors from, say, U. Cal, Davis, explaining these
> terms.


Somatic or germline mutation refers to the random mutagenesis events
that arise from chemical modification of DNA such as alkylation, gamma
irradiation or enzymatic crossover events. The semantic difficulty here
is that, as you note, cloning refers to asexual reproduction and so
implies no change in genetic identity. What Prof. Meredith (Emeritus
from UC Davis) means by this usage is "clonal variation," the
explanation for how two clones, both of which arise from asexual
reproduction of the same germline, can differ genetically. Somewhat off
the topic, there is a growing field of epigenetics, the study of how
gene regulation can alter genetic expression without altering the DNA
itself. Most recently, epigenetic differences have been used to explain
the differences encountered between "identical" twins (as described in a
recent Science publication).

Mark Lipton

--
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Mar 20, 11:32Â*am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> "DaleW" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Mar 20, 10:58 am, "James Silverton"
> >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "DaleW" > wrote in message

>
> ...
> > On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"
> > >
> > wrote:

>
> > > �Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

>
> > > �??>> Would you please expand on "totally different
> > > clonally"
> > > ?
> > > �??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.

>
> > > �SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be
> > > similar
> > > �SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
> > > �SS> Pimitivo in Italy.

>
> > > �SS> �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
> > > �SS> selection in California and Italy could have
> > > effectively
> > > �SS> produced two very different grapes for practical
> > > purposes.
> > > �SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
> > > �SS> practically different for example, despite the fact
> > > that
> > > �SS> they technically belong to the same variety.

>
> > > �SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very
> > > different,
> > > �SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of
> > > the
> > > �SS> Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the
> > > research.

>
> > > �SS> But it could be that the differences between California
> > > Zin
> > > �SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to
> > > terroir.

>
> > > I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
> > > replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
> > > organism whose genetic information is identical to that
> > > �from
> > > which it was created.

>
> > > I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
> > > Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the
> > > DNA
> > > sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may
> > > try
> > > to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how
> > > you
> > > can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
> > > beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
> > > form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
> > > describe a process of selection that might produce different
> > > varieties.

>
> > > James Silverton
> > > Potomac, Maryland

>
> > > E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> > > not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

>
> > Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole
> > Meredith's
> > explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises
> > as a
> > result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual)
> > that
> > occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
> > otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
> > carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood
> > for
> > new
> > vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation
> > survives to
> > the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The
> > mutations
> > accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each
> > other."

>
> > "Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a
> > clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might
> > differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to
> > scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U.
> > Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.

>
> > --
> > Jim Silverton
> > Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> DaleW> Â*I think Carole has retired in last couple years from
> UC-Davis,
> DaleW> but she is probably considered the top expert on grape
> genetics
> DaleW> in the world.
>
> I will have to search libraries for her books since of the two
> relevant ones available on Amazon, one is out of my range at
> $202 and the other is unavailable. Thanks.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


This is a little more in depth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinfandel

Genetically duplicates or not.....the wines smell and taste different
to me. Why? The vines themselves? The terroir? The vineyard
techniques or cellar techniques?
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Bi!! wrote on Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:37:44 -0700 (PDT):

??>> I will have to search libraries for her books since of the
??>> two relevant ones available on Amazon, one is out of my
??>> range at $202 and the other is unavailable. Thanks.
??>>
??>> --
??>> Jim Silverton
??>> Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text -
??>>
??>> - Show quoted text -

B> This is a little more in depth.

B> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinfandel

A Google Scholar search on Carole Meredith produced some
interesting summaries and I will have to see if I can look at
the full papers at a local university library when I have time.
I will have to refresh my memory as to things like allele etc.
Even my copy of Stryer's Biochemistry seems a bit sketchy there
as to mechanisms.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not



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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:32:17 GMT, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

>I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
>replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
>organism whose genetic information is identical to that from
>which it was created.


You are right. Clones are genetically identical.

But I think in everyday usage, if you take a number of cutting from
the same vine, they would be called clones - even if small mutations
caused the cuttings to have slightly different DNA. Frankly no one
would really know whether they are true clones or not - it was only
recently, wasn't it, that the complete DNA sequence of a grape (a
Pinot Noir) was published.

The different clones sold by nurseries would be more distinct, and
would have documented properties.

Presumably vines also sometimes mutate into something totally
different, at which point they would be destroyed - isn't that one of
the possible consequences of viral infection?

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Mark Lipton wrote:


> apples and oranges: Chamapagne is a _place_ name, like Napa or Sonoma;


Thats true but I do not feel a place defines a wine in the way the
French perceive. Can a great Burgundy blend be produced from grapes not
grown in the Burgundy region? Can Burgundy grown grapes not blended
into a true Burgundy be a great wine? I have no trouble with labeling an
appellation as its important but naming the wine by region doesn't make
sense to me. California, Oregon, Washington all produce great wines and
do it without such policies.

A Napa wine doesn't tell me much at all nor does Burgundy. Too broad
for anything meaningful due to the numerous micro climates of the region.

Do you really feel that particular blends common in a particular
California region should be named after that region and regulated as such?
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Mark Lipton wrote:

> Zinfandel from wherever isn't deceptively labeled if what's
> in the bottle is indeed Zinfandel. Get it?


Thats only because of historical naming. Burgundy wines are a blend of
3 or 4 grapes which are also grown worldwide quite successfully. So the
term Burgundy only refers to the appellation and nothing more. Why not
just say that as USA wines are labeled?

My point was asking whether California should have 'trademarked' the
term Zinfandel for it's exclusive use before others started using it?
For me the answer would be no. If I want a particular blend from a
particular appellation I'll look for it.
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Default Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Mike Tommasi wrote:

> The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
> recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a place,
> to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an Italian I
> would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.


Just as I don't buy California wines labeled Primitivo. A Zin is a Zin
and a Primitivo is what it is.
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Miles wrote:

>
> Thats true but I do not feel a place defines a wine in the way the
> French perceive. Can a great Burgundy blend be produced from grapes not
> grown in the Burgundy region?


Great Pinot Noir and Chardonnay can be grown in several different
places, but great Burgundy by definition comes from Burgundy. And it's
not just a French idea: Italian and Spanish wines are also frequently
labeled by place.

> Can Burgundy grown grapes not blended
> into a true Burgundy be a great wine? I have no trouble with labeling an
> appellation as its important but naming the wine by region doesn't make
> sense to me. California, Oregon, Washington all produce great wines and
> do it without such policies.


That's true, but that's a straw man argument. I'm not arguing that
names like Chablis, Champagne and Burgundy should be protected because
they produce great wine (although they do) but because those names are,
in essence, brand names for regions. I can't make tissue paper and
legally call it Kleenex; why should I be able to make a red wine and
call it Burgundy?

>
> A Napa wine doesn't tell me much at all nor does Burgundy. Too broad
> for anything meaningful due to the numerous micro climates of the region.


That's why there are sub-appelation and vineyard names. Do you not
subscribe to the notion of "Rutherford Dust" or "Santa Lucia Highlands
Pinot Noir"? Likewise, Musigny has a certain flavor profile, as does
Richebourg. Those names were arrived at from many centuries of experience.

>
> Do you really feel that particular blends common in a particular
> California region should be named after that region and regulated as such?


No, and where in my statement do you get that mistaken impression? My
point is that certain place names are protected as equivalent to
trademarks. Do you think that crabs from Florida should be able to be
sold as Dungeness crabs? Should farmed salmon from Canada be sold as
Copper River? Should California be able to sell its produce as Florida
oranges?

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com
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