Hello,
I am still sleuthing the hows and the why's of Schwendi and the old-time
grapes in the Tokaj region. Apparently, one list was made in the 17th
century, another in the 18th - I have seen them quoted, or rather, mentioned
(in particular, the fact that Furmint appears in neither) but if they do
exist on the Net, it must be in Hngarian, a language of which I know next to
nothing except 'nem tudom' and 'eljen' neither of which will carry a load
for a long road ... please, friendly nerds, geeks, hungarophones, otakus ...
help me - do they exist? Whom do you ask if not you?
The Truth is out there ...

Cheers

Nils

On Dec 26, 5:30 am, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote:
> Hello,
> I am still sleuthing the hows and the why's of Schwendi and the old-time
> grapes in the Tokaj region. Apparently, one list was made in the 17th
> century, another in the 18th - I have seen them quoted, or rather, mentioned
> (in particular, the fact that Furmint appears in neither) but if they do
> exist on the Net, it must be in Hngarian, a language of which I know next to
> nothing except 'nem tudom' and 'eljen' neither of which will carry a load
> for a long road ... please, friendly nerds, geeks, hungarophones, otakus ....
> help me - do they exist? Whom do you ask if not you?
> The Truth is out there ...


Someone, perhaps it was you, had some questions about this subject
some time ago, and I think I replied with what little I know about it.
I can not supply you with copies of the mentioned classifications or
the grapes being used back then. I can give a few references with
brief quotes from them. If you have not seen some of these before,
perhaps they will give you some more leads. I suspect someone would
have better luck if they read Hungarian and limited a Google or other
search to that language. If you find the actual classifications or
more detailed information about them, please post here.

__________________________________________________ ___________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaji

1730 1765 1772 classification

1757 Royal decree established production area

__________________________________________________ __________


http://www.andrewjefford.com/downloa...rbyJefford.pdf

Much has been made of the fact that Tokaj's vineyards were
classified early and repeatedly, though no thoroughly researched
account of these classifications has yet been written, and their use
in marketing materials has generally been made without precise
historical references. The Royal Tokaji Wine Company claims
that an early classification was ordered in or around 1700 by
Ferenc Rákóczy II, Prince of Transylvania (1704-11) and 'Prince
Commander' of Hungary (1705-11), according to references
published in Notitia topographica, politica, inclyti Comitatus
Zempleniensis (1806) by Antal Szirmay. László Alkonyi refers to a
1730 classification by Mátyás Bél; this classification gained legal
status with the national censuses of 1765 and 1772.

__________________________________________________ __________


http://www.masters-of-wine.org/Resou...ePDF/Atkin.pdf
dissertation

The varieties planted in Tokaj have changed over the centuries.
According to
Howkins, there were as many as 12 different grape varieties planted in
the region in
the sixteenth century, some, none or all of which may have yielded
aszú berries.22
Neither Furmint nor Hárslevelü featured on a list in an account
written by Balázs
Szikszai Fabricius and quoted by Howkins, despite the fact that it had
supposedly
been brought from Italy in the thirteenth century. Howkins says that
the main grape
in those days was Porcins, of which nothing is known today.23 Yellow
Muscat, one of
four permitted grape varieties in modern Tokaj, was not planted until
the midnineteenth
century at the earliest, by which time there were as many as 85
varieties in
the region.

Hello,
Sincere tanks for your help. The Atkin document I have read previously. I
did try to contact the man in question via his employer but got no reply.
Bummer.
I have located a society for historical winemaking, in Germany, and will try
to contact them using my highly idiosyncratic school German.

As for Hungarophones in my immediate vicintiy, they are few and far
between - none, to be more exact.

The quest continues!

Cheers

Nils

On Dec 27, 6:59 am, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote:
> Hello,
> Sincere tanks for your help. The Atkin document I have read previously. I
> did try to contact the man in question via his employer but got no reply.
> Bummer.
> I have located a society for historical winemaking, in Germany, and will try
> to contact them using my highly idiosyncratic school German.
>
> As for Hungarophones in my immediate vicintiy, they are few and far
> between - none, to be more exact.

I have found a few other references given below. Since there seem to
be some conflicts in reports about various old writings concerning
Tokaji, it may take extensive research of the old literature by
someone who has access to libraries and government records in Hungary
and Austria at the least. A reading knowledge of Hungarian, German,
and Latin likely would be required.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________

http://www.leveltaros.hu/Szemle/LSZ2006-4-3.pdf
The above is in very long pdf format and may take a long time to
download. Some references point to here. In a brief scan of the
document I did not find any tables or graphics of interest, but I can
not read the text.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________


Magyarorszag nepenek elete 1730 tajan (Tortenetirok tara) (Unknown
Binding)
by Matyas Bel (Author)
The above appears to be a copy of a copy written in Hungarian and only
one copy appears to remain at Amazon at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...bestbookbuys00
Matyas Bel wrote a lot, and I do not know for sure that this book will
discuss Tokaji.

__________________________________________________ __________________________

http://www.andeswines.cl/raiz/englan...from=&ucat=31&
The above is closely related to a reference I gave in my first post.

Hi all,

This thread is a decade old - so I am throwing this out there in case anyone is still around!

I am writing my dissertation on Tokaji wines and have some of the resources you mention above, including the 1730 Bél Mátyás text. It was originally Latin, I have a Hungarian version, and am currently translating the Tokaji chapter into English. I am wondering if any others have leads or access to original sources Tokaj classifcation, and/or if they'd like to swap materials.

Cheers,
June