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Old 02-03-2007, 02:41 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default 'Chianti' Riserva?

I did not know that plain 'Chianti' (not Classico, Rufina, etc.) was
made as 'Riserva'. I picked up a bottle of "Via Firenze" (dal 1826)
Riserva for $10. Have not opened yet, so no opinion on its quality.
"C. Campagna Gello" is listed as 'bottler'. Have never heard of them.
12.5% alcohol.


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Old 03-03-2007, 01:57 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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UC wrote:

I did not know that plain 'Chianti' (not Classico, Rufina, etc.) was
made as 'Riserva'. I picked up a bottle of "Via Firenze" (dal 1826)
Riserva for $10. Have not opened yet, so no opinion on its quality.
"C. Campagna Gello" is listed as 'bottler'. Have never heard of them.
12.5% alcohol.



I have never heard of them. If you wish to have a good, although not
typical, Chianti Riserva (just Chianti, not CC) you might consider this
one:

http://www.corzanoepaterno.it/vino_d...20Borri%202001

That winery is almost on the border of the Chianti Classico production area.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:01 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default 'Chianti' Riserva?

der-pizzameister wrote:

I have never heard of them. If you wish to have a good, although
not typical, Chianti Riserva (just Chianti, not CC) you might
consider this one:

http://www.corzanoepaterno.it/vino_d...no=I%20Tre%20B
orri%202001


They make phantastic cheese too, btw. Been there a year ago,
Aljosha Goldschmidt (Swiss of Dutch descendance, iirc) and his
wife (British brought up in Venice) are some of the most charming
hosts I ever met. And their wine is pretty damn good, too!

M.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:24 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Michael Pronay wrote:

They make phantastic cheese too, btw.


True. Those visiting there during springtime should try their "Ricotta"
cheese.

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Old 05-03-2007, 05:04 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default 'Chianti' Riserva?

On Mar 3, 8:57 am, der-pizzameister
wrote:
UC wrote:
I did not know that plain 'Chianti' (not Classico, Rufina, etc.) was
made as 'Riserva'. I picked up a bottle of "Via Firenze" (dal 1826)
Riserva for $10. Have not opened yet, so no opinion on its quality.
"C. Campagna Gello" is listed as 'bottler'. Have never heard of them.
12.5% alcohol.


I have never heard of them. If you wish to have a good, although not
typical, Chianti Riserva (just Chianti, not CC) you might consider this
one:

http://www.corzanoepaterno.it/vino_d...%20Tre%20Borri...

That winery is almost on the border of the Chianti Classico production area.




So far, I'm unimpressed with this wine. I had it cold, though (it was
in my car overnight), so I'll see tonight.



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Old 05-03-2007, 06:43 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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UC wrote:

So far, I'm unimpressed with this wine. I had it cold, though (it was
in my car overnight), so I'll see tonight.


If you refer to "Via Firenze" I would not have much expectations. I have
never heard about them (I live in Tuscany) and - frankly speaking - $10 in
the US market seems a low price for a good Chianti Riserva.
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Old 05-03-2007, 07:40 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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On Mar 5, 1:43 pm, der-pizzameister
wrote:
UC wrote:
So far, I'm unimpressed with this wine. I had it cold, though (it was
in my car overnight), so I'll see tonight.


If you refer to "Via Firenze" I would not have much expectations. I have
never heard about them (I live in Tuscany) and - frankly speaking - $10 in
the US market seems a low price for a good Chianti Riserva.




Yes, I've had much better $10-13 wines from south, Sardinia, and
Sicily.

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Old 07-03-2007, 06:18 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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On Mar 5, 2:40 pm, "UC" wrote:
On Mar 5, 1:43 pm, der-pizzameister
wrote:

UC wrote:
So far, I'm unimpressed with this wine. I had it cold, though (it was
in my car overnight), so I'll see tonight.


If you refer to "Via Firenze" I would not have much expectations. I have
never heard about them (I live in Tuscany) and - frankly speaking - $10 in
the US market seems a low price for a good Chianti Riserva.


Yes, I've had much better $10-13 wines from south, Sardinia, and
Sicily.



The wine is simply not very good. I told the clerk not to order any
more of it. He said someone really liked it and ordered a case. What
can I say? I'm sure I didn't get a 'bad' bottle, because I have had
bad bottles before. This wine simply didn't have much flavor, despite
its intense color. Bad bottles taste 'off', and this wine didn't tatse
off.

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Old 10-03-2007, 05:21 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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der-pizzameister wrote:

... If you wish to have a good, although not
typical, Chianti Riserva (just Chianti, not CC) you might consider this
one:

http://www.corzanoepaterno.it/vino_d...20Borri%202001

That winery is almost on the border of the Chianti Classico production area.


By the way of this remark about production areas of wines branded as
Chianti, or Chianti Classico, ecc., and since there has been some
discussion a few weeks ago about the meaning of "Chianti" (i.e. as a
geographical in the first place, rather than just a wine denomination),
I think it might be found interesting, at least by some of you, the
following link to a Wikipedia page displaying a very handy map
which compares all the different "Chianti-something" areas:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagin...chianti_it.jpg

The blue-striped area is what corresponds to the actual Chianti
_district_, i.e. to the _geographical_ area known as Chianti,
administratively known as "Lega del Chianti" from the end of 13th
century to the end of 18th century and whose icon was a black rooster,
the so called "gallo nero". Most notably at the beginning of the 90s
Chianti Classico people were stopped by the Gallo bros from displaying
on their bottles sold on the American market such collective brand name,
and they also changed the name of the Consorzio, til that time named
Consorzio del Gallo Nero.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:45 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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filippo wrote:

I think it might be found interesting, at least by some of you, the
following link to a Wikipedia page displaying a very handy map
which compares all the different "Chianti-something" areas:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagin...chianti_it.jpg


Thanks for the interesting contribution.
This map must be pretty unique in the world collection of "Chianti wine"
maps: honestly I do not see the point of showing the territory of
Castellina, Radda and Gaiole in blue, while the rest of the Chianti Classico
area is depicted in red.
This map is about Chianti subzones (I beg pardon for my poor English),
so actually I find at least superfluous to make a distinction between the
named three municipalities and the rest of the Chianti Classico area.
A map illustrating the different production areas of Chianti wines should in
first place provide a clear indication of the *current* boundaries of the
different subzones. Using the "blue" pencil for Castellina, Radda, and
Gaiole at most might serve an aspect of historical relevance.
At any rate consumers and wine lovers have to understand that the Chianti
Classico production area is -for what concernes wine- *one* without any
formal distinction between its internal territories. I would find
preferable not to mix all in a map strict regulations about wine producing
areas with other things which matters to history.


The blue-striped area is what corresponds to the actual Chianti
_district_, i.e. to the _geographical_ area known as Chianti,
administratively known as "Lega del Chianti" from the end of 13th
century to the end of 18th century


As for what concerns the expression "Chianti district" I guess that sooner
or later the only acceptable definition will refer to the "Distretto Rurale
del Chianti" which is an economic and territorial system and -guess what-
once again is not limited to Castellina, Radda and Gaiole.





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Old 11-03-2007, 02:04 AM posted to alt.food.wine
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der-pizzameister wrote:
filippo wrote:

I think it might be found interesting, at least by some of you, the
following link to a Wikipedia page displaying a very handy map
which compares all the different "Chianti-something" areas:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagin...chianti_it.jpg


Thanks for the interesting contribution.
This map must be pretty unique in the world collection of "Chianti wine"
maps: honestly I do not see the point of showing the territory of
Castellina, Radda and Gaiole in blue, while the rest of the Chianti Classico
area is depicted in red.


You know... when talking about a wine named after a geographical area,
it is always worth, I believe, showing which is the actual area and
which is the extended area where ONE product is allowed to be branded,
that was done in recent years. ;-)

This map is about Chianti subzones (I beg pardon for my poor English),


Chianti as a wine does not mean anything but this tautology: wine named
Chianti is the wine named Chianti according to regulations. Period.
There is little to do with the Chianti area, and there is no such thing
as a typical style of winemaking with that name. Grape varieties also
seem to be pretty variable over the years. It is just an arbitrary
container to market red wine from the central part of Tuscany. Could you
give any explanations about the whys of those borders displayed in the
above mentioned map? Why such places are within the production areas and
such other places are not? Why are several sangiovese wines branded as
IGT Toscana considered to be way more representative of the Chianti
terroir than many DOCG Chianti Classico ones?

so actually I find at least superfluous to make a distinction between the
named three municipalities and the rest of the Chianti Classico area.


The distinction is just the one I made here above: the three
municipalities are the Chianti area. The rest is the production area (by
law) of a wine which is allowed to be branded as Chianti-something.
You may find it superflous...;-) I find it a pretty substancial distinction.

A map illustrating the different production areas of Chianti wines should in
first place provide a clear indication of the *current* boundaries of the
different subzones.


And so does that map, as you can see.

Using the "blue" pencil for Castellina, Radda, and
Gaiole at most might serve an aspect of historical relevance.


History will never be wiped out. A territory IS eminently history.
Particularly more than five centuries of political, military, social
history, with respect to what else? The commercial ups and downs of a
mere one single product in the last few decades?

At any rate consumers and wine lovers have to understand that the Chianti
Classico production area is -for what concernes wine- *one* without any
formal distinction between its internal territories.


As far as pedology (soil) and climate is concerned, quite the opposite
is true: the "Chianti Classico" production area is a rather
etherogeneous collection of different terroirs. If you look at the
geologic map, by the way, you can easily spot a glob of substancially
homogeneous character, corresponding to the historical Chianti area.
If you look at the landscape (which is a tell tale sign, when it comes
to agricultural products), nobody with a sufficient actual knowledge of
the area would deny that the Chianti area is quite different from the
Castelnuovo Berardenga area, and from the San Casciano val di Pesa or
Barberino and Tavarnelle val di Pesa surroundings.
Who cares about the lack of "formal" distinction, resulting from a
crazy regulation whose purpose is exactly that: expanding the scope of
"Chianti" in order to exploit this name and market more wine from a
larger area?

I would find
preferable not to mix all in a map strict regulations about wine producing
areas with other things which matters to history.


The blue etched area in that map still refers to wine, although with an
historical approach in mind: it purports to be the area subject to the
earliest known wine regulation dealing with a wine marketed as
"Chianti", the edict of 1716.

The blue-striped area is what corresponds to the actual Chianti
_district_, i.e. to the _geographical_ area known as Chianti,
administratively known as "Lega del Chianti" from the end of 13th
century to the end of 18th century


As for what concerns the expression "Chianti district" I guess that sooner
or later the only acceptable definition will refer to the "Distretto Rurale
del Chianti" which is an economic and territorial system and -guess what-
once again is not limited to Castellina, Radda and Gaiole.


That "distretto rurale" is far from being set and ruled, at the moment.
They did not find any agreement, and I am not surprised.
What is more, if you read the "piano di indirizzo territoriale" of
Regione Toscana, you would easily realise that an agreement on that is
not in sight yet. Not surprisingly again, if you consider the recent EU
regulation concerning the use of geographical designations in branding
typical products (Reg CE n.510/2006 of 20 March 2006), which although
not dealing with wine products, yet is setting general principles that
are pretty strict and conflicting with this slacky misuse of the name
Chianti in branding wines :-/
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:25 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Dear Filippo,
I am not going to discuss most of the points from your post simply because I
think that an extensive discussion about the Chianti region has already
appeared on afw and probably went much beyond the scope of this group.
I only find that the whole thing would have been a bit more amusing if there
was an adequate counterpart to oppose your thesis.
Anyway if you wished to discuss those points my email address is
(replace "3" with "e"): dani3l3martini (at) gmx (d0t) n3t

Here I only wish to point out that:

In my reply to UC I clearly spoke of Chianti Classico production area.

The map which url you have posted is not clear for several reasons.

Due to the unhappy choice of colours some part of the generic Chianti area
in the province of Arezzo can easily be confused with the subzone
named "Chianti Colli Senesi" (both are depicted in yellow).

This map is a unique artwork most likely from a castellinese, raddese or
gaiolese (*) folk (or at least by someone whose primary intent was to
publish a content suggesting a supposed preeminence of one part over the
rest of the Chianti Classico production area).

(*) italian names for citizens from three municipalities within the Chianti
Classico production area.

I have never seen a map of that kind in books, magazines, fliers, etc.
Make a google image search and you will find:

-maps of the Chianti production area with the *whole* Chianti Classico zone
in the same colour. Like this one (the tiny Montespertoli area has not been
taken into account, probably that one is an old map):
http://www.italyandwine.net/mappe/chianti.gif

-maps of the Chianti Classico subzone with each municipality territory
displayed in its own colour. A sample he
http://tinyurl.com/39ln4s

That artwork submitted to wikipedia is really innovative because it clearly
put a focus on a subset of the territory of the Chianti Classico production
area. By the way, it is worth to recall that according to the Chianti
Classico wine regulations such subset simply does not exist as a separate
entity. And since 1932 -that is almost eighty years ago- wine from San Polo
in Chianti (yes I know that pronunciating that toponym might have
urticating effects on some people's ears ;-) ) can be bottled as Chianti
Classico just like wine from the grapes growing under the Brolio Castle
walls.

Take the name of the file: "Sottozone chianti it.jpg"
That means that the purpose of the image should be to illustrate the
boundaries of the Chianti and Chianti Classico denominations as well as the
Chianti denomination subzones. That is not exactly what such a map does.
Indeed if you talk about Chianti subzones you would just have to stick to
the different production zones as they were defined in the disciplinary
regulations published a few decades ago (let's not mix a matter subject to
present time regulations and laws with historical documents from the
eighteenth century)

Wine made in the eighteenth century has nothing to share with the present
time Chianti and Chianti Classico denominations (beside of course the
word "Chianti"). So, once again, why putting such stuff from the ancient
times when talking about "XX-th century" Chianti subzones? Chianti subzones
are a matter of strict wine regulations - or call it bureaucracy if you
hate those Chianti wine fellows and the way the two denominations were
created - but, please, make things less puzzling than they actually are and
avoid the use of a superfluous blue etching when illustrating Chianti
subzones.

I am not saying that the map is presenting false information. The blue area
inside the red one has an historical meaning. The map is just presenting a
mix of true things. Which not always lead to a good outcome.

Kind regards.

Daniele


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Old 11-03-2007, 06:19 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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der-pizzameister wrote:

I only find that the whole thing would have been a bit more amusing if
there was an adequate counterpart to oppose your thesis.


Forgot to say that I am not going to serve in the role because I am not a
fierce supporter of thesis which conflict with yours. Beside from that I do
not live within the Chianti area (the Chianti area according to your
personal definition), nor within the extended one, nor even within the
hyper-extended one and I think that it is better to leave to people born
there the whole controversy about the geography of Chianti. It's more fun.
It is so amusing when I visit Radda or Gaiole and happen to listen to
retired old men who blame San Casciano Val di Pesa while they are sitting
at a table and playing cards.
Localism! woooh :-D what would be Italy without that?

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Old 11-03-2007, 07:37 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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der-pizzameister wrote:

but, please, make things less puzzling than they actually


I meant to write this: "please do not make things more puzzling than they
actually are"
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:47 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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der-pizzameister wrote:

Localism! woooh :-D what would be Italy without that?


Liebe Pizzameister,

thanks for your interesting remarks (in the other post) about that
artwork (which is not a meisterwerk of mine, I have to say).
Just an objection he this point about Chianti is not (or it does not
need to be just) a point of localism. It is a point of truthfulness.
Of stolen identity. I believe it is much more general issue than just
a localistic tantrum.
Thanks again,
F


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