The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
changes in 5 years.

#1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
something new by now.

#2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
top restaurant of Alice Waters.

#3 The French Laundry/Per Se. These two Thomas Keller restaurants
hardly need any discussion. It is interesting that in the kitchen of
each you will find a TV monitor tuned to the kitchen of the other
restaurant. I guess this helps Keller keep control of both restaurants
despite one being on the West coast and the other on the East coast.

#4 Spago in Beverly Hills. Despite being a restaurant for the stars,
this restaurant still manages to put out top food.

#5 Joel Robuchon at the Mansion in Las Vegas. Apparently this new
restaurant is turning out top food despite the location. It also is
very expensive.

There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
them.

cwdjrxyz wrote:

> #1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
> American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
> samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
> it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
> return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
> nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
> courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
> smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
> intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
> something new by now.

Hmmm... Time to add that to my list.

>
> #2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
> top restaurant of Alice Waters.

I'm amazed that it ranks this high on the list, as good as it is.

<SNIP>
> There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
> over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
> outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
> them.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by bargains. Perhaps because of
the close relationship of Alice Waters and Kermit Lynch, Chez Panisse
has usually got a fair number of reasonably priced, nontraditional wines
in addition to the high end stuff. Their wine list can be found at:
http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgwinelist.html

and on it you will find such reasonably priced gems as:
2005 Clos de Briords ($32)
2004 Closel Clos du Papillon ($44)
2004 de Villaine Aligoté ($36)
2004 Graillot Crozes-Hermitage ($46)
2003 Navarro Pinot Noir Methode l'Ancienne ($44)
2004 Foillard Morgon Cote du Py ($46)

Granted, those prices are 200-300% of retail, but they still represent
good bargains for a restaurant wine list. The half bottle selection is
also quite attractive.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton
>

I am aways surprized that Chez Panisse is not #1 of top 50.

It might not be the most pretentious restaurant...but for me and my
wife....we consider it the best restaurant we have dined at.

I have been to many of Top50 but not French Laundry. Tried and could not
get in.


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
m...
> cwdjrxyz wrote:
>
>> #1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
>> American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
>> samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
>> it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
>> return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
>> nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
>> courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
>> smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
>> intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
>> something new by now.
>
> Hmmm... Time to add that to my list.
>
>>
>> #2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
>> top restaurant of Alice Waters.
>
> I'm amazed that it ranks this high on the list, as good as it is.
>
> <SNIP>
>> There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
>> over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
>> outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
>> them.
>
> I suppose that depends on what you mean by bargains. Perhaps because of
> the close relationship of Alice Waters and Kermit Lynch, Chez Panisse
> has usually got a fair number of reasonably priced, nontraditional wines
> in addition to the high end stuff. Their wine list can be found at:
> http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgwinelist.html
>
> and on it you will find such reasonably priced gems as:
> 2005 Clos de Briords ($32)
> 2004 Closel Clos du Papillon ($44)
> 2004 de Villaine Aligoté ($36)
> 2004 Graillot Crozes-Hermitage ($46)
> 2003 Navarro Pinot Noir Methode l'Ancienne ($44)
> 2004 Foillard Morgon Cote du Py ($46)
>
> Granted, those prices are 200-300% of retail, but they still represent
> good bargains for a restaurant wine list. The half bottle selection is
> also quite attractive.
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> Mark Lipton
>>

I am always surprised that Chez Panisse is not #1 of top 50.
It might not be the most pretentious restaurant...but for me and my
wife....we consider it the best restaurant we have dined at.



Sorry for typos...I swear I am going to wear my glasses more.





"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I am aways surprized that Chez Panisse is not #1 of top 50.
>
> It might not be the most pretentious restaurant...but for me and my
> wife....we consider it the best restaurant we have dined at.
>
> I have been to many of Top50 but not French Laundry. Tried and could not
> get in.
>
>
> "Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
> m...
>> cwdjrxyz wrote:
>>
>>> #1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
>>> American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
>>> samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
>>> it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
>>> return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
>>> nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
>>> courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
>>> smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
>>> intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
>>> something new by now.
>>
>> Hmmm... Time to add that to my list.
>>
>>>
>>> #2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
>>> top restaurant of Alice Waters.
>>
>> I'm amazed that it ranks this high on the list, as good as it is.
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>> There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
>>> over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
>>> outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
>>> them.
>>
>> I suppose that depends on what you mean by bargains. Perhaps because of
>> the close relationship of Alice Waters and Kermit Lynch, Chez Panisse
>> has usually got a fair number of reasonably priced, nontraditional wines
>> in addition to the high end stuff. Their wine list can be found at:
>> http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgwinelist.html
>>
>> and on it you will find such reasonably priced gems as:
>> 2005 Clos de Briords ($32)
>> 2004 Closel Clos du Papillon ($44)
>> 2004 de Villaine Aligoté ($36)
>> 2004 Graillot Crozes-Hermitage ($46)
>> 2003 Navarro Pinot Noir Methode l'Ancienne ($44)
>> 2004 Foillard Morgon Cote du Py ($46)
>>
>> Granted, those prices are 200-300% of retail, but they still represent
>> good bargains for a restaurant wine list. The half bottle selection is
>> also quite attractive.
>>
>> Mark Lipton
>>
>> Mark Lipton
>>>
>
>

I wonder if this is survey is done the same way as the sister
publication determines "best" hotels and resorts. they stick a ballot
in the middle of the magazine with most possible choices and let the
general public vote on any and all they wish. from the results in
that survey, i am convinced that the ritz carlton company buys
thousands of copies of the magazine and stuffs the ballot box. there
is no requirement in that survey to ever have even been on the correct
continent to vote for various establishments.

I once bought a gourmet to eat in the 10 or so restaurants chosen to
be the "best" in london. Certainly 8 of the 10 should not have made
the top 50

On 22 Sep 2006 21:37:47 -0700, "cwdjrxyz" >
wrote:

>The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
>what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
>repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
>changes in 5 years.
>
>#1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
>American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
>samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
>it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
>return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
>nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
>courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
>smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
>intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
>something new by now.
>
>#2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
>top restaurant of Alice Waters.
>
>#3 The French Laundry/Per Se. These two Thomas Keller restaurants
>hardly need any discussion. It is interesting that in the kitchen of
>each you will find a TV monitor tuned to the kitchen of the other
>restaurant. I guess this helps Keller keep control of both restaurants
>despite one being on the West coast and the other on the East coast.
>
>#4 Spago in Beverly Hills. Despite being a restaurant for the stars,
>this restaurant still manages to put out top food.
>
>#5 Joel Robuchon at the Mansion in Las Vegas. Apparently this new
>restaurant is turning out top food despite the location. It also is
>very expensive.
>
>There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
>over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
>outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
>them.

Hello, gerald!
You wrote on Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:48:18 -0400:

g> I once bought a gourmet to eat in the 10 or so restaurants
g> chosen to be the "best" in london. Certainly 8 of the 10
g> should not have made the top 50

g> On 22 Sep 2006 21:37:47 -0700, "cwdjrxyz"
>
g> wrote:

??>> The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short
??>> description of what they consider to be the top 50
??>> restaurants in the US. They also repeat the top 50
??>> restaurant list for 2001. There have been many changes in
??>> 5 years.

??>> ??>> #1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be

??>> I wonder if this is survey is done the same way as the
sister
publication determines "best" hotels and resorts. they stick a
ballot
in the middle of the magazine with most possible choices and let
the
general public vote on any and all they wish. from the results
in
that survey, i am convinced that the ritz carlton company buys
thousands of copies of the magazine and stuffs the ballot box.
there
is no requirement in that survey to ever have even been on the
correct
continent to vote for various establishments.
??>>

I wonder if you could get a survey from an insert in the Journal
of the American Medical Association? An honest cardiologist
might have to downgrade most of Gourmet's choices even if they
probably could afford them!


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Did it mention the methodology of its picks? I wonder how many people
have eaten at Masa. I always find these list fascinating- the
Restaurant Magazine list had WD-50 and Spice Market among the 50 best
in the world, but this list doesn't have them in 50 best in US. Both
lists include Gramercy Tavern, which I love, but partly because of it's
predictableness- not in the same league creatively as say Manresa. I'm
not sure I knowa single food-obsessed NYer who counts Babbo as the
best place in city. I like Fore Street in Maine, but could name 10 NY
places I think are better. I know a bunch of people who've eaten at
Magnolia Grill (I haven't)- they liked, but 11th best in country? This
list looks like some folks sat around picking names they knew- "ok,
give me a Southern one...how about Tx? .....did we mention New England
yet....hey, we have lots of Northern CA but we need to throw in some
SoCal" ...I'm just a nitpicker I guess.


cwdjrxyz wrote:
> The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
> what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
> repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
> changes in 5 years.
>
> #1. Alinea in Chicago. Grant Achatz is supposed to be redefining the
> American restaurant for an entirely new generation. You get many tiny
> samples of wildly original creations. When he perfects a dish he drops
> it and replaces it with something entirely new. Thus your meal on a
> return visit may be wildly different. Matching wine must be a
> nightmare, considering the extreme difference in the many bite sized
> courses. One course is a single perfect bite of lamb served in
> smoldering eucalyptus leaves. A tiny ravioli is filled with very
> intense liquid truffle. But these dishes likely have been replaced by
> something new by now.
>
> #2 Chez Panisse in Berkeley. One hardly needs to discuss this long time
> top restaurant of Alice Waters.
>
> #3 The French Laundry/Per Se. These two Thomas Keller restaurants
> hardly need any discussion. It is interesting that in the kitchen of
> each you will find a TV monitor tuned to the kitchen of the other
> restaurant. I guess this helps Keller keep control of both restaurants
> despite one being on the West coast and the other on the East coast.
>
> #4 Spago in Beverly Hills. Despite being a restaurant for the stars,
> this restaurant still manages to put out top food.
>
> #5 Joel Robuchon at the Mansion in Las Vegas. Apparently this new
> restaurant is turning out top food despite the location. It also is
> very expensive.
>
> There now are many restaurants on the top 50 list scattered nearly all
> over the US. Most of these restaurants likely have a decent to
> outstanding wine list, but I doubt if you find any bargins in most of
> them.

"Richard Neidich" in
ink.net:

>I am aways surprized that Chez Panisse is not #1 of top 50.

Its importance is also historical. When it opened in 1971 focusing on
local, seasonal ingredients; cooking that exposes the ingredients rather
than force-fitting them into something like the _Guide Culinaire's_ standard
recipes; service in a simple, country-inn style -- i.e., emulating examples
of what Europeans had long done in modest good local restaurants Alice
Waters knew and enjoyed -- there was nothing like it in the region. (I was
a teenager two blocks away when it opened at 1517 Shattuck* Avenue, and saw
it evolve.) Despite the European roots, or because of the different
produce, journalists dubbed this "California Cuisine" and Panisse and
spin-offs put Berkeley on the map gastronomically.

1970s standard US fine dining was _Guide Culinaire_ with shortcuts, heavy
interiors, pompous headwaiters with itchy palms. Panisse may have helped
that cliché die.

However! A novel cultural side-effect developed. When people came from
afar to Panisse and spread the word, it surfaced in national restaurant
writing like the recent list. (By early 1980s** it was the Laundry / Per Se
of its day, "no one can get reservations there.") More people sought it
out, and some found the modesty and simplicity incongruous with the fame. A
middle-aged New Yorker visiting in the early 1980s told me he'd seen through
Panisse, and what a fraud it was. So low-key, and he couldn't even get his
favorite cocktail, goddammit! Call that service?

This phenomenon has become itself a cliché, especially among
restaurant-experienced visiting Northeasterners who declare that they don't
"get" what the fuss is about. Enough of a phenomenon to garner some
explicit writing.

-- Max


--
* Francis Kittredge Shattuck was a local entrepreneur and land owner who
organized a train line into the new college town of Berkeley, late 1800s, in
what became its main business street. And if you've read this far and want
REAL trivia: 10 years after Panisse opened, another food fanatic who then
lived near it started a newsgroup, net.cooks, one of the first. (Now
rec.food.cooking.) From which, by strong consensus, a wine newsgroup spun
off a month later, net.wines. Which evolved continuously into what you are
now reading. A tiny but real link connects this newsgroup to Chez Panisse
therefore.

** By that time a secondary, casual café had also opened, upstairs, with
very different cooking techniques, much less "exposed:" grilling, pizzas,
etc. Afriend who was a longtime chef at the restaurant characterized the
café to me, 20 years ago, as an almost independent business. But now a
standard shibboleth for visitors or unfamiliar journalists is to fail to
distinguish them.

"DaleW" in ps.com :
>
> ...I'm just a nitpicker I guess.

I'd say, on the contrary, those looked like pretty astute observations. For
what my opinion is worth. -- M

BTW to Mark's incidental comment on wine pricing of "200-300%," I don't know
about all regions, but a 2.5 ratio is fairly standard for Bay Area fine
dining and relates somewhat to the food-cost ratio though details differ.
Many restaurants permit or encourage bottles brought in. (We routinely
brought our own wines to Panisse when I ate there occasionally as a starving
student. 1976 Gevrey-Chambertins, 1971 Fixins -- I don't mean anything
ironic here, these were good-value wines, snapped up occasionally when the
values surfaced, carefully saved for suitable food occasions.)

DaleW wrote:
> Did it mention the methodology of its picks? I wonder how many people
> have eaten at Masa. I always find these list fascinating- the
> Restaurant Magazine list had WD-50 and Spice Market among the 50 best
> in the world, but this list doesn't have them in 50 best in US. Both
> lists include Gramercy Tavern, which I love, but partly because of it's
> predictableness- not in the same league creatively as say Manresa. I'm
> not sure I knowa single food-obsessed NYer who counts Babbo as the
> best place in city. I like Fore Street in Maine, but could name 10 NY
> places I think are better. I know a bunch of people who've eaten at
> Magnolia Grill (I haven't)- they liked, but 11th best in country? This
> list looks like some folks sat around picking names they knew- "ok,
> give me a Southern one...how about Tx? .....did we mention New England
> yet....hey, we have lots of Northern CA but we need to throw in some
> SoCal" ...I'm just a nitpicker I guess.

The article with the list says nothing about the methodology. However
the table of contents has a short paragraph that says: "And how do you
narrow a field of thousands down to a mere 50. It wasn't easy, but it
sure was fun." So I guess ratings are based on Gourmet staff
evaluations. Gourmet now reviews restaurants all over the US, so they
do have some experience with many restaurants. I would guess that Ruth
Reichl, editor in chief of Gourmet, had as much to do with the list as
anyone. She took over Gourment several years ago, and there soon were
drastic changes. I believe she was a restaurant reviewer for the NY
Times before going to Gourmet. She impresses me as a woman who usually
gets her way, although I have never met her.

Now for NYC. Besides Per Se in a tie for 3rd with The French Laundry,
other NYC entries a 7- Masa; 9- Daniel; 10- Le Bernardin; 17- Babbo;
27- Jean Gorges; 34- Gramercy Tavern. Absent from this list, but on the
2001 list a 19- Nobu; 37- Gotham Bar and Grill; 49- Peter Luger
Steak House (Brooklyn).

Chez Panisse was #1 on the 2001 list and Gene Georges was #2.

Of course any such "best of" list always causes much discussion because
individual tastes vary quite a bit.

I was surprised to find Locke-Ober in Boston to be rated as #18 on the
new list. I ate there once when I was young (quite a few years ago).It
was something out of the late 1800s in a luxary hotel dining room
style. It would not have been out of place to have seen ladies in hoop
skirts and bustles. Many of the regulars likely came over on the
Mayflower. Apparently the decor is still much in the old style. However
their present chef, Lydia Shire, has turned this restaurant upside
down. Apparently she has managed to keep many of the old regulars
despite predictions to the contrary. She has brought in many new
customers as well. Some of her dishes sound quite radical, such as
rum-and-tobacco smoked salmon.

I had a 1/2 bottle of JL Chave Hermitage last year and the price was like
$75 for a half.

Where I live in NC that would be just about the retail price. So its all
relative.

I stand by my comments that Chez Panisse is the best restaurant I have eaten
at in North America. That said I have not been to French Laundry and I have
heard it too is without doubt excellent. I am sure I would love it but
cannot get in no matter how hard I have tried.

Chez Panisse I get into every trip to SF/ Napa as I call well in advance.


"Max Hauser" > wrote in message
...
> "DaleW" in ps.com :
>>
>> ...I'm just a nitpicker I guess.
>
> I'd say, on the contrary, those looked like pretty astute observations.
> For what my opinion is worth. -- M
>
> BTW to Mark's incidental comment on wine pricing of "200-300%," I don't
> know about all regions, but a 2.5 ratio is fairly standard for Bay Area
> fine dining and relates somewhat to the food-cost ratio though details
> differ. Many restaurants permit or encourage bottles brought in. (We
> routinely brought our own wines to Panisse when I ate there occasionally
> as a starving student. 1976 Gevrey-Chambertins, 1971 Fixins -- I don't
> mean anything ironic here, these were good-value wines, snapped up
> occasionally when the values surfaced, carefully saved for suitable food
> occasions.)
>
>

On 22 Sep 2006 21:37:47 -0700, "cwdjrxyz" >
wrote:

>The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
>what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
>repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
>changes in 5 years.

I've been following this thread and being consummed with envy as one
who lives in the heartland and no longer gets much opportunity to hit
the high spots in fine dining. I'm one of those semi-senile old farts
who reminisces about the days when Boyer had one Michelin star, Bocuse
just rose to prominence, and both of the Troigros brothers were still
alive.

I recalled my short tenure in Los Angeles when I mistakenly thought
that fine dining in America was like in Europe--if I had a credit
card, I was treated like royalty. Not so, at least not in LA. If you
don't have a retinue (or now a posse), you are nobody and treated
accordingly. My efforts to get a reservation at Spago in those days
laid the groundwork for that impression. And, Las Vegas is an entirely
different matter--for the worse.

But, on the off chance that I might find something obtainable on the
Gourmet Top 50 list, I took a look and found, to my surprise at #6, La
Reve (sorry I'm too lazy to look up the key-stroke combo to put the
little hat on the first "e"), in San Antonio.

As a new (and also long-ago) Texan, I made a pilgrimage to the Alamo a
few months ago and had the opportunity to dine at La Reve. One could
call it unassuming--at least in terms of location, not quite on the
Riverwalk; of size, not more than a dozen tables; and of pretense,
black walls, exposed ceiling ducting and blacked out store-front
windows.

BUT, service is absolutely flawless. The menu is wonderful--the
concept being a prix fixe order for three, four or five courses. The
options change regularly, but nothing I tasted or saw nearby would be
a poor choice. The pricing is incredibly reasonable for what is
offered. The wine list, is exceptional with a huge range of selections
from around the world at very nice prices.

I'll wholeheartedly endorse La Reve.

Now, I notice two joints in Dallas--York Street (which I've looked up
online and haven't learned much), and Nana, which is atop one of the
downtown hotels. I also notice that the long-vaunted Mansion at Turtle
Creek, whose chef left last year is not on the list. Glad I didn't go.

Oh, and in San Antonio the Watermark Hotel is also on my emphatically
recommended list.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed, my favorite romantic lodging in San Antonio is a small place, limited
service The Havana Riverwalk Inn.

http://www.havanariverwalkinn.com/

Stayed there recently and it really is a romantic getaway. On the Riverwalk
but far enough away from crowds so it remains quiet.


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Sep 2006 21:37:47 -0700, "cwdjrxyz" >
> wrote:
>
>>The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
>>what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
>>repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
>>changes in 5 years.
>
> I've been following this thread and being consummed with envy as one
> who lives in the heartland and no longer gets much opportunity to hit
> the high spots in fine dining. I'm one of those semi-senile old farts
> who reminisces about the days when Boyer had one Michelin star, Bocuse
> just rose to prominence, and both of the Troigros brothers were still
> alive.
>
> I recalled my short tenure in Los Angeles when I mistakenly thought
> that fine dining in America was like in Europe--if I had a credit
> card, I was treated like royalty. Not so, at least not in LA. If you
> don't have a retinue (or now a posse), you are nobody and treated
> accordingly. My efforts to get a reservation at Spago in those days
> laid the groundwork for that impression. And, Las Vegas is an entirely
> different matter--for the worse.
>
> But, on the off chance that I might find something obtainable on the
> Gourmet Top 50 list, I took a look and found, to my surprise at #6, La
> Reve (sorry I'm too lazy to look up the key-stroke combo to put the
> little hat on the first "e"), in San Antonio.
>
> As a new (and also long-ago) Texan, I made a pilgrimage to the Alamo a
> few months ago and had the opportunity to dine at La Reve. One could
> call it unassuming--at least in terms of location, not quite on the
> Riverwalk; of size, not more than a dozen tables; and of pretense,
> black walls, exposed ceiling ducting and blacked out store-front
> windows.
>
> BUT, service is absolutely flawless. The menu is wonderful--the
> concept being a prix fixe order for three, four or five courses. The
> options change regularly, but nothing I tasted or saw nearby would be
> a poor choice. The pricing is incredibly reasonable for what is
> offered. The wine list, is exceptional with a huge range of selections
> from around the world at very nice prices.
>
> I'll wholeheartedly endorse La Reve.
>
> Now, I notice two joints in Dallas--York Street (which I've looked up
> online and haven't learned much), and Nana, which is atop one of the
> downtown hotels. I also notice that the long-vaunted Mansion at Turtle
> Creek, whose chef left last year is not on the list. Glad I didn't go.
>
> Oh, and in San Antonio the Watermark Hotel is also on my emphatically
> recommended list.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Max Hauser wrote:


> BTW to Mark's incidental comment on wine pricing of "200-300%," I don't know
> about all regions, but a 2.5 ratio is fairly standard for Bay Area fine
> dining and relates somewhat to the food-cost ratio though details differ.

Max,
I only added that comment to address those who might view the word
"bargain" as meaning close to retail in price rather than low in price.
I agree that Chez Panisse's pricing is completely in line (if not
better) with most of its peers'. My point was that there is a
plentitude of low priced wines on Chez Panisse's wine list, many of
which are more than just drinkable.

Mark Lipton

On 23 Sep 2006 16:43:27 -0700
"cwdjrxyz" > wrote:

> The article with the list says nothing about the methodology. However
> the table of contents has a short paragraph that says: "And how do you
> narrow a field of thousands down to a mere 50. It wasn't easy, but it
> sure was fun." So I guess ratings are based on Gourmet staff
> evaluations. Gourmet now reviews restaurants all over the US, so they
> do have some experience with many restaurants. I would guess that Ruth
> Reichl, editor in chief of Gourmet, had as much to do with the list as
> anyone. She took over Gourment several years ago, and there soon were
> drastic changes. I believe she was a restaurant reviewer for the NY
> Times before going to Gourmet. She impresses me as a woman who usually
> gets her way, although I have never met her.

An old friend of Adele's was a food editor at Gourmet for many
years. We were privy to their methods rating the Paris places. They'd ship
the entire editorial staff over for a week, and every meal would be at a
leading restaurant en mass -- though I believe they did split of the whole
group. They ate together and passed food around, so it was anything but
discreet. I believe that places towards the beginning of the week had
a substantial advantage over later ones, when palate saturation surely
set in.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Cwdjrxyz,
I guess I just get frustrated at the word "best," when there is no
clear guide to (1) who did the choosing, (2) if multiple visits were
required, and especially (3) what criteria did they use?

1) I enjoyed Ruth Reichl's reviews when she was with the Times (and
Betsy has enjoyed her books). But I would be curious as to how many
staffers were involved, and how many staffers needed to vote to place a
restaurant on the list.

2) I believe the Times requires the reviewer to visit the restaurant at
least 3 times before a review can be issued. I'm curious as to the
Gourmet policy. Masa seats 10 at bar, plus I think 2 tables. How many
staffers did Gourmet send (at $300/pop before drinks, tax, and tip)
before declaring it in top 10? Masa also made the Restaurant magazine
list, though it had been opened a few months - I had the same question.



3) this is the biggie to me. Is it based solely on food, do decor and
service count equally to the food, or is primarily on food but with
significant attention to the other two? Is excellent service in a
casual style (think Danny Meyers' places such as Eleven Mad, Union Sq,
Gramercy) considered as good as more formal French ala Jean-George,
Daniel, A. Ducasse?

Lugers may well have what many people think of as the best steak in the
US. Yet with its shortcomings of decor, service, and winelist, I can
easily see it not being on such a list (of course, some people think
the anti-decor and crusty staff make it even better). I'm surprised
Gotham would have made the list even in 2001.

I'm not criticizing this list as such, I found it interesting (and
actually probably better researched than the Restaurant "50 Best in
World" - I seriously doubt most of the writers who voted for Spice
Market had been there - it hadn't been opened long, just like Masa). I
do wish Gourmet had entitled it something such as "50 Restaurants We
Really Love" rather than such a definitive "50 Best", but I guess that
would sell less.

DaleW wrote:
> Cwdjrxyz,
> I guess I just get frustrated at the word "best," when there is no
> clear guide to (1) who did the choosing, (2) if multiple visits were
> required, and especially (3) what criteria did they use?

Most 'best' restaurant lists don't use the same criteria I would. Often
they only list so called 5 star ultra expensive posh restaurants
frequented by the rich and famous. Usually those restaurants are not
the type I enjoy and absurd prices are often not the main problem I
have. I prefer small one of a kind out of the way restaurants that are
not the trendy place to be.

cwdjrxyz wrote:
> The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
> what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
> repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
> changes in 5 years.

One of my favorite restaurants will never make any national top list.
It's too small and in a small city to get recognition. Thats something
that makes it all the more special. Lack of tourists!! It's an old
converted house in a residential neighborhood. Hard to beat! Wine
Spectator has mentioned it briefly many times. The wine list on their
website is only a small fraction of what they have.

If ever in Flagstaff on the way to the Grand Canyon make it a stop.

http://www.cottageplace.com/

miles wrote:

> One of my favorite restaurants will never make any national top list.
> It's too small and in a small city to get recognition. Thats something
> that makes it all the more special. Lack of tourists!! It's an old
> converted house in a residential neighborhood. Hard to beat! Wine
> Spectator has mentioned it briefly many times. The wine list on their
> website is only a small fraction of what they have.
>
> If ever in Flagstaff on the way to the Grand Canyon make it a stop.
>
> http://www.cottageplace.com/

Miles,
Some time when you're visiting Amador County, take Hwy 88 over the
Carson Pass to 395 and then South to Bridgeport. There, go to 1881
Restaurant (http://www.restaurant1881.com/), which is close to what
you've just described, although without nearly such an extensive wine
list. Still, it's quite a surprise to find such a nice fine dining
establishment in such a remote location.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:

>
> Miles,
> Some time when you're visiting Amador County, take Hwy 88 over the
> Carson Pass to 395 and then South to Bridgeport. There, go to 1881
> Restaurant (http://www.restaurant1881.com/), which is close to what
> you've just described, although without nearly such an extensive wine
> list. Still, it's quite a surprise to find such a nice fine dining
> establishment in such a remote location.

Thanks Mark. That looks exactly like the type of restaurant I really
enjoy. Small, quiet, not trendy, touristy etc. These types of
restaurants aren't easy to find. I'd like to visit Amador again soon.
It's been several years since I've been there. I usually go in May when
the Sacramento Jazz Festival occurs. I may also visit in Sept. during
the Reno Air Races.

miles > wrote in news:w01Sg.1558$tO5.267@fed1read10:

> cwdjrxyz wrote:
>> The October 2006 issue of Gourmet has a list and short description of
>> what they consider to be the top 50 restaurants in the US. They also
>> repeat the top 50 restaurant list for 2001. There have been many
>> changes in 5 years.
>
> One of my favorite restaurants will never make any national top list.
> It's too small and in a small city to get recognition. Thats something
> that makes it all the more special. Lack of tourists!! It's an old
> converted house in a residential neighborhood. Hard to beat! Wine
> Spectator has mentioned it briefly many times. The wine list on their
> website is only a small fraction of what they have.
>
> If ever in Flagstaff on the way to the Grand Canyon make it a stop.
>
> http://www.cottageplace.com/
>

And how much do they pay for the Wine Spectator recognition? You do know
there is a fee for that? Don't you?

"miles" wrote ...........
>
> One of my favorite restaurants will never make any national top
> list is http://www.cottageplace.com/
>
> If ever in Flagstaff on the way to the Grand Canyon make it a stop.
>
>


Now you understand why this is a very small world.

In 1985 or 86 I was working in the US (actually, I was being hosted by an
American company whose products I sold in the NZ market) and spent a week in
Arizona.

I had driven across from Bakersfield, through Barstow and Needles (at the
time I was unaware I was driving the famous Route 66!) and stayed in
Flagstaff, before heading up to the Grand Canyon.

I was hosted out to dinner - guess where?

Yes, Cottage Place Restaurant. I had forgotten the name - and recall nothing
about what I consumed - but I vividly remember the building - as soon as I
saw it on the web site.

Thanks for the link.

I also remember dining at Mancuso's at Borgata in Scottsdale, a bizarre OTT
place rather styled like a medieval castle.

Again, I was being hosted, and have no specific memory of the meal or
ines - but I was really impressed by the following.

It must have been August / maybe September (I could work it out - I ran
the Santa Monica Sports & Arts Festival Marathon a couple weeks after my
sojourn in Az!!!) - but it was very hot in Phoenix.

I arrived at Mancuso's sans jacket and tie - but, calmly and
professionally, I was ushered into a small anteroom and fitted with both
jacket and tie - and I rejoined my hosts within 30 seconds.

For a hick NZer, this was an amazing service.

Maybe it is time for a return visit.

--

st.helier

st.helier wrote:

> I also remember dining at Mancuso's at Borgata in Scottsdale, a bizarre OTT
> place rather styled like a medieval castle.
>
> Again, I was being hosted, and have no specific memory of the meal or
> ines - but I was really impressed by the following.
>
> It must have been August / maybe September (I could work it out - I ran
> the Santa Monica Sports & Arts Festival Marathon a couple weeks after my
> sojourn in Az!!!) - but it was very hot in Phoenix.
>
> I arrived at Mancuso's sans jacket and tie - but, calmly and
> professionally, I was ushered into a small anteroom and fitted with both
> jacket and tie - and I rejoined my hosts within 30 seconds.
>
> For a hick NZer, this was an amazing service.
>
> Maybe it is time for a return visit.

The Borgata is a very high priced shopping mall where one can find
$2000+ womens shoes and bikinis. I've never been to Mancuso's. That
type of place doesn't appeal to me very much but it is very well rated.
I love fine dining with a casual attitude. Most of the places I
prefer are located in small remote mountain towns.