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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:21:49 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On 29 Aug 2006 06:11:43 -0700, "Florida" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hey, Kent Lundberg, how are you? We buy your rice. Organic is
> >> >> >good. Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
> >> >> >commercial rice production.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's a lie. Obviously pearl wants to promote the lie,
> >> >
> >> >You're the one who obviously wants to promote the lie, liar.
> >>
> >> As I said, OBVIOUSLY you want to promote the lie. Anyone
> >> who thinks there are no cds in rice production would have to
> >> be even stupider than you, meaning that you know there are,
> >> meaning that you're the deliberate liar. Duh.

> >
> >I have not said that there are "no cds in rice production", as you imply.
> >
> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
> >the road kill on a mile of highway.

>
> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.


Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.

> >Harvesters move slowly,

>
> So did the bush hog I got to run a few times. But there were a lot
> of grass hoppers bouncing around on it and getting killed by it the
> whole time anyway. If they had been frogs and anoles etc like in
> rice fields it would have been them in that position instead, but
> rice harvesters would provide less chance of survival because of
> the difference in design. I'm sure you won't be able to see why
> or how, but I believe most omnivorous people could:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/goeyk
>
> http://tinyurl.com/gkpmo
> http://tinyurl.com/pk3ut
>
> >and they are
> >not the high speed machines described in this article." - Kent Lundberg

>
> He told you what he knows very well that you want to believe,


You can go see for yourself. diderot told you what you want to
believe.

> >That is from someone *known* to be a GENUINE organic rice farmer.
> >
> >As I said, you are a liar, and you OBVIOUSLY want to promote the lie.

>
> "Florida" wrote:
>
> "Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
> commercial rice production."
>
> YOU, who bitch and carry on claiming diderot was wrong, said
> nothing at all to correct that absurd, dishonest idea. That means
> YOU want people to believe it.


I was focussing on letting Florida know that I'm not Kent Lundberg.
I assumed that Florida had read the email, and just worded it wrong.

"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison
to
the road kill on a mile of highway. Harvesters move slowly, and they
are
not the high speed machines described in this article." - Kent Lundberg

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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:56 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ __________
> >> >> >> >> From: diderot >
> >> >> >> >> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
> >> >> >> >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
> >> >> >> >> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
> >> >> >> >> Message-ID: >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
> >> >> >thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
> >> >> >harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
> >> >> >elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
> >> >> >writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
> >> >> >proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
> >> >> >farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
> >> >> >are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
> >> >> >left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
> >> >> >sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.
> >> >>
> >> >> Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
> >> >> be dead,
> >> >
> >> >Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
> >> >as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?
> >>
> >> I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
> >> get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
> >> Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
> >> when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
> >> should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
> >> the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
> >> draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
> >> afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
> >> water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
> >> what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
> >> mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
> >> are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.

> >
> >That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
> >next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.

>
> How would they know what was happening? How would they
> know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
> in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
> by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
> would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
> to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?


Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.

> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> along.
> >> >
> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >>
> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,

> >
> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,

>
> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> damn funny.


I've plenty of reason to believe that. You dis-believe without reason.

> >and an unabashed propagandist.
> >
> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
> >> upstream.

> >
> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
> >Why don't you do a little research?

>
> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
> where do you think they come from?


I don't think that 'they' are there!

> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> and sulk away from it.


You haven't answered the question.

> >And if his claims were true, a
> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.

>
> Who would document it? Why?


Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..

> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
> >> >
> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
> >>
> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!

> >
> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.

>
> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
> people to believe otherwise.


You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.

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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 31 Aug 2006 22:51:28 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> On 30 Aug 2006 16:09:53 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>>> __________________________________________________ __________
>> >> >> >> >>>> From: diderot >
>> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
>> >> >> >> >>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
>> >> >> >> >>>> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
>> >> >> >> >>>> Message-ID: >
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>> This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
>> >> >> >> >met at a bar.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
>> >> >> >> >yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
>> >> >> >> >could be referring to the population of Texas.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
>> >> >> >> on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
>> >> >> >> rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
>> >> >> >> farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
>> >> >> >> incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
>> >> >> >> none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
>> >> >> >> dishonest about that stupid suggestion.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
>> >> >> >> >square FOOT of rice?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
>> >> >> >> and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
>> >> >> >> and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
>> >> >> >> the big picture.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
>> >> >> >problem with destroying an egg.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
>> >> >> not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
>> >> >> frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
>> >> >> but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!
>> >> >
>> >> >This is an evasion of the point.
>> >>
>> >> That IS my point!
>> >
>> >???

>>
>> Dishonest veg*ns, claiming dishonestly to be "ethical", lie in public forums
>> about the many deaths associated with rice production in a desperate attempt
>> to maintain the deception of being ''ethical".
>>

>
>That doesn't address the fact that you were evading my point. Who has
>lied? Point out an example of someone lying.


"No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out." - you

>> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
>> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
>> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
>> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >>
>> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
>> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >>
>> >
>> >What reason?

>>
>> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
>> Duh.
>>

>
>No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>accordingly.


They don't correct him. The only one who even pretended to provide
another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same
area.
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


dh@. wrote:
> On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

-snip-
> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >accordingly.

>
> They don't correct him. The only one who even pretended to provide
> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same area.


..sigh... Grievous work, attempting to make smart remarks to folks
who don't appear to use their 'smart' setting.

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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


dh@. wrote:
> On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> On 31 Aug 2006 22:51:28 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 16:09:53 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>>> __________________________________________________ __________
> >> >> >> >> >>>> From: diderot >
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
> >> >> >> >> >>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Message-ID: >
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
> >> >> >> >> >met at a bar.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
> >> >> >> >> >yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
> >> >> >> >> >could be referring to the population of Texas.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
> >> >> >> >> on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
> >> >> >> >> rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
> >> >> >> >> farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
> >> >> >> >> incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
> >> >> >> >> none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
> >> >> >> >> dishonest about that stupid suggestion.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
> >> >> >> >> >square FOOT of rice?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
> >> >> >> >> and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
> >> >> >> >> and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
> >> >> >> >> the big picture.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
> >> >> >> >problem with destroying an egg.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
> >> >> >> not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
> >> >> >> frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
> >> >> >> but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This is an evasion of the point.
> >> >>
> >> >> That IS my point!
> >> >
> >> >???
> >>
> >> Dishonest veg*ns, claiming dishonestly to be "ethical", lie in public forums
> >> about the many deaths associated with rice production in a desperate attempt
> >> to maintain the deception of being ''ethical".
> >>

> >
> >That doesn't address the fact that you were evading my point. Who has
> >lied? Point out an example of someone lying.

>
> "No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out." - you
>


This is a change of subject - you were talking about lying about deaths
associated with rice production - and I'm not lying when I say that. It
happens to be my sincerely held opinion. I'm not lying if I express my
opinion. If you think I'm mistaken, then argue the point.

> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >>
> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >What reason?
> >>
> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
> >> Duh.
> >>

> >
> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >accordingly.

>
> They don't correct him.


They have taken issue with certain things he said.

> The only one who even pretended to provide
> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same
> area.


If you disagree with pearl, then argue with her. I see no reason to
think that pearl is opposed to any point of view being expressed, it
just that she has her own point of view which she also wants to express.



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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:21:49 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> On 29 Aug 2006 06:11:43 -0700, "Florida" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Hey, Kent Lundberg, how are you? We buy your rice. Organic is
>> >> >> >good. Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
>> >> >> >commercial rice production.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's a lie. Obviously pearl wants to promote the lie,
>> >> >
>> >> >You're the one who obviously wants to promote the lie, liar.
>> >>
>> >> As I said, OBVIOUSLY you want to promote the lie. Anyone
>> >> who thinks there are no cds in rice production would have to
>> >> be even stupider than you, meaning that you know there are,
>> >> meaning that you're the deliberate liar. Duh.
>> >
>> >I have not said that there are "no cds in rice production", as you imply.
>> >
>> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
>> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
>> >the road kill on a mile of highway.

>>
>> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
>> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.

>
>Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
>vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
>move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.


Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:

http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk

the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
to hide.

"a good, reasonable, annualised (but still conservative)
number of amphibian and anole deaths through the combine is 35,000 of
all species harvested per acre, combined average for two cuttings. in
spite of these seemingly large numbers, far, far more frogs & lizards
escape than are combined. i would guess that the 35,000 amphibian
deaths represents less than 20% of the total population, and probably
far less, but that is just a guess - plenty, plenty, plenty are not killed." - diderot

"one can tell the difference after harvest, also. on the organic field,
as the combine passes, the wall of birdlife: hawks of several varieties,
crows, kites, buzzards, egrets, herons, ... descends to glean both
escapees and paté. on the 1340, there are still quite a number of
birds, but nowhere near the solid covering of the organic side." - diderot

>> >Harvesters move slowly,

>>
>> So did the bush hog I got to run a few times. But there were a lot
>> of grass hoppers bouncing around on it and getting killed by it the
>> whole time anyway. If they had been frogs and anoles etc like in
>> rice fields it would have been them in that position instead, but
>> rice harvesters would provide less chance of survival because of
>> the difference in design. I'm sure you won't be able to see why
>> or how, but I believe most omnivorous people could:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/goeyk
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/gkpmo
>> http://tinyurl.com/pk3ut
>>
>> >and they are
>> >not the high speed machines described in this article." - Kent Lundberg

>>
>> He told you what he knows very well that you want to believe,

>
>You can go see for yourself. diderot told you what you want to
>believe.


Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
rice production. There's reason why I would not want as you so
obviously don't want to, but why would I?

>> >That is from someone *known* to be a GENUINE organic rice farmer.
>> >
>> >As I said, you are a liar, and you OBVIOUSLY want to promote the lie.

>>
>> "Florida" wrote:
>>
>> "Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
>> commercial rice production."
>>
>> YOU, who bitch and carry on claiming diderot was wrong, said
>> nothing at all to correct that absurd, dishonest idea. That means
>> YOU want people to believe it.

>
>I was focussing on letting Florida know that I'm not Kent Lundberg.
>I assumed that Florida had read the email, and just worded it wrong.


You don't mind people believing there are no cds involved with
rice production, but you object to them understanding that there
are a lot of them.

>"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
>the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison
>to
>the road kill on a mile of highway. Harvesters move slowly, and they
>are
>not the high speed machines described in this article." - Kent Lundberg


"- rodents and insectivores get hammered pretty much year-round,
with all the dirt work, cultivation and harvesting activities and, for rice
specifically, the near-continuious cycle of flooding and drying the
fields. i have seen responsible estimates of rodent/insectivore
population of 9-35 square meter, and i think the 35/meter is probably
more accurate (in this area, anyhow) judging from the 500 yard-long,
foot-wide windrows of drowned grey and brown on the lee-side levee
whenever the rice is flooded." - diderot
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 2 Sep 2006 11:54:16 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:56 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ __________
>> >> >> >> >> From: diderot >
>> >> >> >> >> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
>> >> >> >> >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
>> >> >> >> >> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
>> >> >> >> >> Message-ID: >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
>> >> >> >thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
>> >> >> >harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
>> >> >> >elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
>> >> >> >writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
>> >> >> >proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
>> >> >> >farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
>> >> >> >are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
>> >> >> >left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
>> >> >> >sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
>> >> >> be dead,
>> >> >
>> >> >Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
>> >> >as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?
>> >>
>> >> I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
>> >> get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
>> >> Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
>> >> when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
>> >> should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
>> >> the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
>> >> draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
>> >> afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
>> >> water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
>> >> what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
>> >> mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
>> >> are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.
>> >
>> >That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
>> >next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.

>>
>> How would they know what was happening? How would they
>> know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
>> in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
>> by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
>> would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
>> to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?

>
>Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.


Not long ago you acted like you understood there are
frogs in rice fields, even commenting on them trying to get
people to believe that: "Any there could easily move on as the
fields dry." Back when you understood that there are frogs in
rice fields, can you remember how you thought they got there?

>> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
>> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
>> >> >> along.
>> >> >
>> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
>> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
>> >>
>> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
>> >
>> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,

>>
>> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
>> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
>> damn funny.

>
>I've plenty of reason to believe that.


Like what?

>You dis-believe without reason.


I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
people in general would have learned about it because research
teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
public like they do with other things of interest.

>> >and an unabashed propagandist.
>> >
>> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
>> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
>> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
>> >> upstream.
>> >
>> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
>> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
>> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
>> >Why don't you do a little research?

>>
>> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
>> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
>> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
>> where do you think they come from?

>
>I don't think that 'they' are there!


But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
this week, have you any idea?

>> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
>> and sulk away from it.

>
>You haven't answered the question.


Which one?

>> >And if his claims were true, a
>> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.

>>
>> Who would document it? Why?

>
>Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..


So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?

>> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
>> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
>> >> >
>> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
>> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
>> >>
>> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
>> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
>> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!
>> >
>> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.

>>
>> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
>> people to believe otherwise.

>
>You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
>outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.


As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:

http://tinyurl.com/z5fky
http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo
http://tinyurl.com/zxf82
http://tinyurl.com/goh3f

This animal is even called a Rice Frog:

http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v

so is this one:

http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v

and this one:

http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn

This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:

http://tinyurl.com/h49cy

yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
now claim that there are no frogs in rice production. How
could I possibly believe your insane sounding claim that there
are no cds in rice production or it would be well-documented
and presented on web sites, when ALL evidence shows that
you have amazingly somehow recently become totally ignorant
about the existence of frogs in rice fields, or more likely you
are being deliberately and contemptibly dishonest about this
whole thing?
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On 31 Aug 2006 11:18:07 -0700, wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>(snip)
>
>> There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,

>
>Are you worried about a "decent life" for these unborn, future animals?


No. Is anyone?
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On 2 Sep 2006 16:32:07 -0700, "Florida" > wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>-snip-
>> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>> >accordingly.

>>
>> They don't correct him. The only one who even pretended to provide
>> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
>> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
>> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same area.

>
> ..sigh... Grievous work, attempting to make smart remarks to folks
>who don't appear to use their 'smart' setting.


There's nothing smart about denying cds in crop production, and
especially in rice production. Instead there's only stupidity, ignorance,
and extreme dishonesty.
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 2 Sep 2006 16:58:32 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> On 31 Aug 2006 22:51:28 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 16:09:53 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> __________________________________________________ __________
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> From: diderot >
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Message-ID: >
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>> This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
>> >> >> >> >> >met at a bar.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
>> >> >> >> >> >yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
>> >> >> >> >> >could be referring to the population of Texas.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> "the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
>> >> >> >> >> on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
>> >> >> >> >> rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
>> >> >> >> >> farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
>> >> >> >> >> incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
>> >> >> >> >> none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
>> >> >> >> >> dishonest about that stupid suggestion.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
>> >> >> >> >> >square FOOT of rice?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
>> >> >> >> >> and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
>> >> >> >> >> and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
>> >> >> >> >> the big picture.


Here is what made me think he was making reference to eggs, though
maybe not in the context we were discussing it's still a significant aspect
of the difference between organic and conventional methods:

"the difference is that the billions of amphibian eggs that were laid when
the 1340 was flooded at the same time and in the same fashion as the 900
didn't make many tadpoles and fewer frogs due to applications of
pesticides, insecticides, herbicides and fungicides." - diderot

>> >> >> >> >It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
>> >> >> >> >problem with destroying an egg.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
>> >> >> >> not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
>> >> >> >> frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
>> >> >> >> but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >This is an evasion of the point.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That IS my point!
>> >> >
>> >> >???
>> >>
>> >> Dishonest veg*ns, claiming dishonestly to be "ethical", lie in public forums
>> >> about the many deaths associated with rice production in a desperate attempt
>> >> to maintain the deception of being ''ethical".
>> >>
>> >
>> >That doesn't address the fact that you were evading my point. Who has
>> >lied? Point out an example of someone lying.

>>
>> "No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out." - you
>>

>
>This is a change of subject - you were talking about lying about deaths
>associated with rice production - and I'm not lying when I say that. It
>happens to be my sincerely held opinion. I'm not lying if I express my
>opinion. If you think I'm mistaken, then argue the point.


"pearl" doesn't mind people believing there are no cds involved with
rice production, but is maniacally opposed to people understanding
that there are a lot of them. Aren't you?

>> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
>> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
>> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
>> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
>> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >What reason?
>> >>
>> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
>> >> Duh.
>> >>
>> >
>> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>> >accordingly.

>>
>> They don't correct him.

>
>They have taken issue with certain things he said.


No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
are actually killed in rice production, though recently "pearl" is suggesting
that there aren't even any frogs in rice fields.

>> The only one who even pretended to provide
>> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
>> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
>> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same
>> area.

>
>If you disagree with pearl, then argue with her. I see no reason to
>think that pearl is opposed to any point of view being expressed, it
>just that she has her own point of view which she also wants to express.


You pretend to as well, yet you won't tell us how many deaths you
think are involved in rice production. diderot's view if from first hand
experience and certainly seems more than reasonable to me. You
who have never been around it disagree with what he told us from
his own observations, yet you can provide nothing better or even
different for us to take into consideration. What "pearl" wants us
to believe seems completely insane and dishonest, and doesn't
even agree with itself:

"Frogs are as mobile as the next creature. Any there could easily
move on as the fields dry." - "pearl"

"I don't think that 'they' are there!" - "pearl"


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


dh@. wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 16:58:32 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> On 1 Sep 2006 21:18:40 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> On 31 Aug 2006 22:51:28 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 16:09:53 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> __________________________________________________ __________
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> From: diderot >
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Message-ID: >
> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>> This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
> >> >> >> >> >> >met at a bar.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
> >> >> >> >> >> >yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
> >> >> >> >> >> >could be referring to the population of Texas.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> "the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
> >> >> >> >> >> on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
> >> >> >> >> >> rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
> >> >> >> >> >> farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
> >> >> >> >> >> incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
> >> >> >> >> >> none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
> >> >> >> >> >> dishonest about that stupid suggestion.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
> >> >> >> >> >> >square FOOT of rice?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
> >> >> >> >> >> and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
> >> >> >> >> >> and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
> >> >> >> >> >> the big picture.

>
> Here is what made me think he was making reference to eggs, though
> maybe not in the context we were discussing it's still a significant aspect
> of the difference between organic and conventional methods:
>
> "the difference is that the billions of amphibian eggs that were laid when
> the 1340 was flooded at the same time and in the same fashion as the 900
> didn't make many tadpoles and fewer frogs due to applications of
> pesticides, insecticides, herbicides and fungicides." - diderot
>
> >> >> >> >> >It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
> >> >> >> >> >problem with destroying an egg.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
> >> >> >> >> not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
> >> >> >> >> frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
> >> >> >> >> but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >This is an evasion of the point.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That IS my point!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >???
> >> >>
> >> >> Dishonest veg*ns, claiming dishonestly to be "ethical", lie in public forums
> >> >> about the many deaths associated with rice production in a desperate attempt
> >> >> to maintain the deception of being ''ethical".
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >That doesn't address the fact that you were evading my point. Who has
> >> >lied? Point out an example of someone lying.
> >>
> >> "No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out." - you
> >>

> >
> >This is a change of subject - you were talking about lying about deaths
> >associated with rice production - and I'm not lying when I say that. It
> >happens to be my sincerely held opinion. I'm not lying if I express my
> >opinion. If you think I'm mistaken, then argue the point.

>
> "pearl" doesn't mind people believing there are no cds involved with
> rice production, but is maniacally opposed to people understanding
> that there are a lot of them.


pearl thinks that Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth,
so she responds accordingly.

> Aren't you?
>


I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.

> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >What reason?
> >> >>
> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
> >> >> Duh.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >> >accordingly.
> >>
> >> They don't correct him.

> >
> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.

>
> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
> are actually killed in rice production,


That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
coming up with estimates of your own.

> though recently "pearl" is suggesting
> that there aren't even any frogs in rice fields.
>
> >> The only one who even pretended to provide
> >> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
> >> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
> >> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same
> >> area.

> >
> >If you disagree with pearl, then argue with her. I see no reason to
> >think that pearl is opposed to any point of view being expressed, it
> >just that she has her own point of view which she also wants to express.

>
> You pretend to as well, yet you won't tell us how many deaths you
> think are involved in rice production.


I told you that I don't know.

> diderot's view if from first hand
> experience and certainly seems more than reasonable to me. You
> who have never been around it disagree with what he told us


I don't disagree with him. I don't know whether he's right or not. I
have taken issue with you implying that it would be acceptable for him
to include eggs in his calculations, and with you accusing people of
lying.

> from
> his own observations, yet you can provide nothing better or even
> different for us to take into consideration. What "pearl" wants us
> to believe seems completely insane and dishonest, and doesn't
> even agree with itself:
>
> "Frogs are as mobile as the next creature. Any there could easily
> move on as the fields dry." - "pearl"
>
> "I don't think that 'they' are there!" - "pearl"


She means they're not there after the fields have dried. It's not
inconsistent. I don't see what's so insane and dishonest about it.

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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

<..>
> >> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
> >> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
> >> >the road kill on a mile of highway.
> >>
> >> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
> >> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.

> >
> >Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
> >vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
> >move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.

>
> Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk
>
> the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
> removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
> to hide.


Where are all 'these' frogs coming from, dh@?

Show us some other documentation of this alleged mass slaughter.

<diderot fiction snipped.>
...
> Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
> rice production.


To feel better about the billions of deaths caused by the livestock industry.

<..>


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<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On 2 Sep 2006 11:54:16 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:56 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ __________
> >> >> >> >> >> From: diderot >
> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
> >> >> >> >> >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
> >> >> >> >> >> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
> >> >> >> >> >> Message-ID: >
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
> >> >> >> >thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
> >> >> >> >harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
> >> >> >> >elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
> >> >> >> >writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
> >> >> >> >proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
> >> >> >> >farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
> >> >> >> >are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
> >> >> >> >left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
> >> >> >> >sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
> >> >> >> be dead,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
> >> >> >as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?
> >> >>
> >> >> I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
> >> >> get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
> >> >> Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
> >> >> when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
> >> >> should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
> >> >> the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
> >> >> draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
> >> >> afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
> >> >> water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
> >> >> what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
> >> >> mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
> >> >> are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.
> >> >
> >> >That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
> >> >next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.
> >>
> >> How would they know what was happening? How would they
> >> know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
> >> in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
> >> by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
> >> would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
> >> to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?

> >
> >Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.

>
> Not long ago you acted like you understood there are
> frogs in rice fields, even commenting on them trying to get
> people to believe that: "Any there could easily move on as the
> fields dry." Back when you understood that there are frogs in
> rice fields, can you remember how you thought they got there?


A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.

> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> >> along.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >> >>
> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
> >> >
> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
> >>
> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> >> damn funny.

> >
> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.

>
> Like what?


I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.

> >You dis-believe without reason.

>
> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
> people in general would have learned about it because research
> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
> public like they do with other things of interest.


That has happened. You and others like you ridicule everything.

> >> >and an unabashed propagandist.
> >> >
> >> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
> >> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
> >> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
> >> >> upstream.
> >> >
> >> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
> >> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
> >> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
> >> >Why don't you do a little research?
> >>
> >> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
> >> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
> >> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
> >> where do you think they come from?

> >
> >I don't think that 'they' are there!

>
> But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
> this week, have you any idea?


I said that some might be there. Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.

> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> >> and sulk away from it.

> >
> >You haven't answered the question.

>
> Which one?


How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.

> >> >And if his claims were true, a
> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
> >>
> >> Who would document it? Why?

> >
> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..

>
> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?


Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.

> >> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
> >> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
> >> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
> >> >>
> >> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
> >> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
> >> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!
> >> >
> >> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.
> >>
> >> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
> >> people to believe otherwise.

> >
> >You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
> >outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.

>
> As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
> bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
> be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
> would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
> going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/z5fky


"rice visitor" - one frog.

> http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo


one frog. looks like the field's been cropped..

> http://tinyurl.com/zxf82


two frogs - could be anywhere.

> http://tinyurl.com/goh3f


"Frog in the Rice". - one frog.

> This animal is even called a Rice Frog:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a low branch.

> so is this one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field.

> and this one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a massive rock.

> This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/h49cy


I don't see where it's called a "rice paddy frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field either.

> yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
> now claim that there are no frogs in rice production.


No. You absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
post pictures of individual frogs- most of which are clearly not
in rice fields, in attempted support of # hundreds of thousands.

> How
> could I possibly believe your insane sounding claim that there
> are no cds in rice production or it would be well-documented
> and presented on web sites, when ALL evidence shows that
> you have amazingly somehow recently become totally ignorant
> about the existence of frogs in rice fields, or more likely you
> are being deliberately and contemptibly dishonest about this
> whole thing?


Post some proper documentation of mass slaughter of frogs
in rice production, or shut the hell up already, you stupid troll.




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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:19:29 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><..>
>> >> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
>> >> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
>> >> >the road kill on a mile of highway.
>> >>
>> >> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
>> >> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.
>> >
>> >Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
>> >vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
>> >move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.

>>
>> Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk
>>
>> the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
>> removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
>> to hide.

>
>Where are all 'these' frogs coming from, dh@?


Upstream.

>Show us some other documentation of this alleged mass slaughter.
>
><diderot fiction snipped.>
>..
>> Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
>> rice production.

>
>To feel better about the billions of deaths caused by the livestock industry.


Since you don't believe there are a significant number of cds involved
with crop production, which deaths do you think you're referring to, have
you any idea?


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On 2 Sep 2006 11:54:16 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:56 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ __________
>> >> >> >> >> >> From: diderot >
>> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
>> >> >> >> >> >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
>> >> >> >> >> >> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
>> >> >> >> >> >> Message-ID: >
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
>> >> >> >> >thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
>> >> >> >> >harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
>> >> >> >> >elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
>> >> >> >> >writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
>> >> >> >> >proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
>> >> >> >> >farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
>> >> >> >> >are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
>> >> >> >> >left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
>> >> >> >> >sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
>> >> >> >> be dead,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
>> >> >> >as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
>> >> >> get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
>> >> >> Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
>> >> >> when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
>> >> >> should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
>> >> >> the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
>> >> >> draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
>> >> >> afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
>> >> >> water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
>> >> >> what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
>> >> >> mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
>> >> >> are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.
>> >> >
>> >> >That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
>> >> >next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.
>> >>
>> >> How would they know what was happening? How would they
>> >> know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
>> >> in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
>> >> by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
>> >> would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
>> >> to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?
>> >
>> >Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.

>>
>> Not long ago you acted like you understood there are
>> frogs in rice fields, even commenting on them trying to get
>> people to believe that: "Any there could easily move on as the
>> fields dry." Back when you understood that there are frogs in
>> rice fields, can you remember how you thought they got there?

>
>A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.


LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
would they get there?

>> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
>> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
>> >> >> >> along.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
>> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
>> >> >
>> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
>> >>
>> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
>> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
>> >> damn funny.
>> >
>> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.

>>
>> Like what?

>
>I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.


I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.

>> >You dis-believe without reason.

>>
>> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
>> people in general would have learned about it because research
>> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
>> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
>> public like they do with other things of interest.

>
>That has happened.


You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?

>You and others like you ridicule everything.


Not everything, but that's more than you can comprehend
obviously or you wouldn't have made the claim.

>> >> >and an unabashed propagandist.
>> >> >
>> >> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
>> >> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
>> >> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
>> >> >> upstream.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
>> >> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
>> >> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
>> >> >Why don't you do a little research?
>> >>
>> >> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
>> >> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
>> >> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
>> >> where do you think they come from?
>> >
>> >I don't think that 'they' are there!

>>
>> But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
>> this week, have you any idea?

>
>I said that some might be there.


You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.

>Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.


How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.

>> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
>> >> and sulk away from it.
>> >
>> >You haven't answered the question.

>>
>> Which one?

>
>How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.


The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.

>> >> >And if his claims were true, a
>> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
>> >>
>> >> Who would document it? Why?
>> >
>> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..

>>
>> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
>> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
>> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
>> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?

>
>Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
>And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
>crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.


So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
electricity?

>> >> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
>> >> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
>> >> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
>> >> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
>> >> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!
>> >> >
>> >> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.
>> >>
>> >> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
>> >> people to believe otherwise.
>> >
>> >You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
>> >outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.

>>
>> As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
>> bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
>> be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
>> would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
>> going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/z5fky

>
>"rice visitor" - one frog.
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo

>
>one frog. looks like the field's been cropped..
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/zxf82

>
>two frogs - could be anywhere.
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/goh3f

>
>"Frog in the Rice". - one frog.
>
>> This animal is even called a Rice Frog:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v

>
>I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
>and he's sitting on a low branch.
>
>> so is this one:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v

>
>I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
>and that's certainly not a rice field.
>
>> and this one:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn

>
>I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
>and he's sitting on a massive rock.
>
>> This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/h49cy

>
>I don't see where it's called a "rice paddy frog",
>and that's certainly not a rice field either.


You probably won't be able to see it here either since
you only see and believe what you want to, but it's here
none the less in case more honest people have any
interest in the subject:

http://images.google.com/images?q=ri...=Search+Images

>> yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
>> now claim that there are no frogs in rice production.

>
>No. You absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
>post pictures of individual frogs- most of which are clearly not
>in rice fields, in attempted support of # hundreds of thousands.

__________________________________________________ _______
Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
conjunction with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
paddy fields

http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
rice field right next to my home

http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
their spring song from the rice fields nearby.

http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
mess due to frog guts from their boots.

http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
>matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.


"- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot

>> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
>> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
>> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
>> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
>> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >What reason?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
>> >> >> Duh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>> >> >accordingly.
>> >>
>> >> They don't correct him.
>> >
>> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.

>>
>> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
>> are actually killed in rice production,

>
>That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
>coming up with estimates of your own.


You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
experience, so you just say it isn't true. What reason would a
man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
would diderot lie and say there are more?

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dh@. wrote:
> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.

>
> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot
>
> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >What reason?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
> >> >> >> Duh.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >> >> >accordingly.
> >> >>
> >> >> They don't correct him.
> >> >
> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
> >>
> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
> >> are actually killed in rice production,

> >
> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
> >coming up with estimates of your own.

>
> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
> experience, so you just say it isn't true.


No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not. Others
who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
position.

> What reason would a
> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
> would diderot lie and say there are more?


Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming. Or Diderot
might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
sorts of reasons.

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On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
>> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.

>>
>> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
>> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
>> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
>> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
>> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
>> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
>> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
>> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
>> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
>> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >What reason?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
>> >> >> >> Duh.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>> >> >> >accordingly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They don't correct him.
>> >> >
>> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
>> >>
>> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
>> >> are actually killed in rice production,
>> >
>> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
>> >coming up with estimates of your own.

>>
>> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
>> experience, so you just say it isn't true.

>
>No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not. Others
>who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
>position.
>
>> What reason would a
>> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
>> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
>> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
>> would diderot lie and say there are more?

>
>Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
>deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.


People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
but they remain facts none the less. It really says a lot about them
that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.

>Or Diderot
>might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>sorts of reasons.


There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is. It's most
likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.
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<dh@.> wrote

[..]
> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
> but they remain facts none the less.


Some people (i.e. you) point out "facts" that have no relevance.

> It really says a lot about them
> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.


It says a lot about you that you persist in "pointing out" that meat
consumption leads to animals "getting to experience life" when that fact has
no place whatever in the discussion.

>>Or Diderot
>>might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>>deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>>rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>>be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>>object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>>account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>>is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>>sorts of reasons.

>
> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is. It's most
> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.


Those billions of animals that live and die in rice paddies also "get to
experience life", do you "consider" that to be a "positive aspect" of rice
consumption, eh ****wit?





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<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:19:29 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

> ><..>
> >> >> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
> >> >> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
> >> >> >the road kill on a mile of highway.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
> >> >> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.
> >> >
> >> >Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
> >> >vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
> >> >move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.
> >>
> >> Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk
> >>
> >> the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
> >> removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
> >> to hide.

> >
> >Where are all 'these' frogs coming from, dh@?

>
> Upstream.


Yeah... like in Texas flowing streams are swarming with frogs .. Rotfl!

> >Show us some other documentation of this alleged mass slaughter.
> >
> ><diderot fiction snipped.>
> >..
> >> Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
> >> rice production.

> >
> >To feel better about the billions of deaths caused by the livestock industry.

>
> Since you don't believe there are a significant number of cds involved
> with crop production, which deaths do you think you're referring to, have
> you any idea?


Of course. You haven't? Is there anything at all between your ears?




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<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

<..>
> >A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.

>
> LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
> would they get there?


Why wouldn't they? They like humid areas with still shallow pools.
Margins left untouched would provide permanent habitat for frogs.

> >> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> >> >> along.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
> >> >>
> >> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> >> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> >> >> damn funny.
> >> >
> >> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.
> >>
> >> Like what?

> >
> >I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.

>
> I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.


I'm not giving it to you again.

> >> >You dis-believe without reason.
> >>
> >> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
> >> people in general would have learned about it because research
> >> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
> >> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
> >> public like they do with other things of interest.

> >
> >That has happened.

>
> You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
> always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
> exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?


You mean, like you believe in a biblical plague of frogs in rice fields.

There are many written accounts by explorers, researchers and others.

No video that I'm aware of, sorry, but I did link to an unusual photo.

> >You and others like you ridicule everything.

>
> Not everything, but that's more than you can comprehend
> obviously or you wouldn't have made the claim.


I know it from your previous abusive non-response.

> >> >> >and an unabashed propagandist.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
> >> >> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
> >> >> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
> >> >> >> upstream.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
> >> >> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
> >> >> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
> >> >> >Why don't you do a little research?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
> >> >> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
> >> >> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
> >> >> where do you think they come from?
> >> >
> >> >I don't think that 'they' are there!
> >>
> >> But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
> >> this week, have you any idea?

> >
> >I said that some might be there.

>
> You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
> Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.


'they', as in the hundreds of thousands alleged - "the green waterfall".

> >Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.

>
> How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
> info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.


I have backed up logical common sense with an email from a bona fide
organic rice-farmer. -You- have yet to support your fantastical claim.

> >> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> >> >> and sulk away from it.
> >> >
> >> >You haven't answered the question.
> >>
> >> Which one?

> >
> >How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.

>
> The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
> YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
> fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.


I have explained. Rivers and creeks - deep moving bodies of water - aren't
teeming with frogs! Not even in Texas. Frogs live in still, shallow pools.

> >> >> >And if his claims were true, a
> >> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
> >> >>
> >> >> Who would document it? Why?
> >> >
> >> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..
> >>
> >> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
> >> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
> >> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
> >> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?

> >
> >Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
> >And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
> >crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.

>
> So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
> with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
> Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
> electricity?


Yes, it is documented, where or when it occurs. If such a major thing
as you are claiming happens, it would most certainly be documented.

> >> >> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
> >> >> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
> >> >> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
> >> >> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
> >> >> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.
> >> >>
> >> >> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
> >> >> people to believe otherwise.
> >> >
> >> >You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
> >> >outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.
> >>
> >> As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
> >> bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
> >> be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
> >> would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
> >> going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/z5fky

> >
> >"rice visitor" - one frog.
> >
> >> http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo

> >
> >one frog. looks like the field's been cropped..
> >
> >> http://tinyurl.com/zxf82

> >
> >two frogs - could be anywhere.
> >
> >> http://tinyurl.com/goh3f

> >
> >"Frog in the Rice". - one frog.
> >
> >> This animal is even called a Rice Frog:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v

> >
> >I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
> >and he's sitting on a low branch.
> >
> >> so is this one:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v

> >
> >I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
> >and that's certainly not a rice field.
> >
> >> and this one:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn

> >
> >I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
> >and he's sitting on a massive rock.
> >
> >> This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/h49cy

> >
> >I don't see where it's called a "rice paddy frog",
> >and that's certainly not a rice field either.

>
> You probably won't be able to see it here either since
> you only see and believe what you want to, but it's here
> none the less in case more honest people have any
> interest in the subject:
>
> http://images.google.com/images?q=ri...=Search+Images


I still don't see these alleged hundreds of thousands. Do you?

> >> yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
> >> now claim that there are no frogs in rice production.

> >
> >No. You absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
> >post pictures of individual frogs- most of which are clearly not
> >in rice fields, in attempted support of # hundreds of thousands.

> __________________________________________________ _______
> Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
> conjunction


"in conjuction" means 'joined to'. In the areas described below,
harvesting is manual, and therefore the wildlife can thrive as the
fields and surrounding areas will serve as an established habitat.

If you went in there with a mechanic harvester, yes, you'd likely
get your "green waterfall" - once. > That's an ecosystem gone.

> with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
> acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
> systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
> within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
> rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.
>
> http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
> paddy fields
>
> http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
> rice field right next to my home
>
> http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
> paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
> was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
> their spring song from the rice fields nearby.
>
> http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
> of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
> the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
> sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
> mess due to frog guts from their boots.
>
> http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯



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dh@. wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
> >> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.
> >>
> >> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
> >> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
> >> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
> >> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
> >> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
> >> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> >> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> >> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> >> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
> >> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >What reason?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
> >> >> >> >> Duh.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >> >> >> >accordingly.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> They don't correct him.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
> >> >>
> >> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
> >> >> are actually killed in rice production,
> >> >
> >> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
> >> >coming up with estimates of your own.
> >>
> >> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
> >> experience, so you just say it isn't true.

> >
> >No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not. Others
> >who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
> >position.
> >
> >> What reason would a
> >> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
> >> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
> >> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
> >> would diderot lie and say there are more?

> >
> >Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
> >deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.

>
> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
> but they remain facts none the less.


People make claims, which some ethical vegetarians dispute.

> It really says a lot about them
> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.
>


What does it say about them that they are not convinced?

> >Or Diderot
> >might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
> >deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
> >rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
> >be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
> >object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
> >account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
> >is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
> >sorts of reasons.

>
> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is.


Nonsense. It's the anecdotal testimony of one person who claims to be a
rice farmer. What we need is some sort of scientific investigation of
the issue. Only then will it be possible to have well-founded beliefs
about the matter.

Diderot clearly has an agenda to push. It's totally irrational to say
that there is some reason to think Pearl would lie to make her position
more plausible, but there is no reason to think Diderot would.

> It's most
> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.


How would you know whether it's the case or not? There are some people
posting here who are not yet convinced that what Diderot says is
entirely true. That doesn't mean they don't care about human influence
on animals. You have no reason for thinking anyone here lacks concern
about human influence on animals.

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On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:08:17 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote
>
>[..]
>> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
>> but they remain facts none the less.

>
>Some people (i.e. you) point out "facts" that have no relevance.
>
>> It really says a lot about them
>> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
>> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
>> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.

>
>It says a lot about you that you persist in "pointing out" that meat
>consumption leads to animals "getting to experience life" when that fact has
>no place whatever in the discussion.


It has no place in promoting "ar", but is certainly a very significant
aspect of human influence on animals none the less.

>>>Or Diderot
>>>might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>>>deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>>>rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>>>be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>>>object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>>>account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>>>is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>>>sorts of reasons.

>>
>> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
>> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
>> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is. It's most
>> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
>> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
>> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
>> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.

>
>Those billions of animals that live and die in rice paddies also "get to
>experience life", do you "consider" that to be a "positive aspect" of rice
>consumption, eh ****wit?


In some cases, douche. In others not. Since it never is iyo, you
necessarily are incapable of comprehending any distinction between
when it would be and when it wouldn't.
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On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:59:00 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:19:29 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>>
>> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> >> On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message
>> >> .. .
>> >> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>> ><..>
>> >> >> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
>> >> >> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
>> >> >> >the road kill on a mile of highway.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
>> >> >> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.
>> >> >
>> >> >Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
>> >> >vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
>> >> >move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.
>> >>
>> >> Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:
>> >>
>> >> http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk
>> >>
>> >> the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
>> >> removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
>> >> to hide.
>> >
>> >Where are all 'these' frogs coming from, dh@?

>>
>> Upstream.

>
>Yeah... like in Texas flowing streams are swarming with frogs .. Rotfl!


Some are. Here's something else you can't comprehend: there are
sometimes tadpoles too. Something else you won't be able to grasp:
there is often still water behind the flood gates where eggs are laid
and tadpoles hatch and live, and when the gate is opened the eggs
and tadpoles are swept along with the water.

>> >Show us some other documentation of this alleged mass slaughter.
>> >
>> ><diderot fiction snipped.>
>> >..
>> >> Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
>> >> rice production.
>> >
>> >To feel better about the billions of deaths caused by the livestock industry.

>>
>> Since you don't believe there are a significant number of cds involved
>> with crop production, which deaths do you think you're referring to, have
>> you any idea?

>
>Of course.


Which ones?


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On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:37:52 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

><..>
>> >A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.

>>
>> LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
>> would they get there?

>
>Why wouldn't they? They like humid areas with still shallow pools.
>Margins left untouched would provide permanent habitat for frogs.
>
>> >> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
>> >> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
>> >> >> >> >> along.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
>> >> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
>> >> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
>> >> >> damn funny.
>> >> >
>> >> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.
>> >>
>> >> Like what?
>> >
>> >I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.

>>
>> I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.

>
>I'm not giving it to you again.


You lied to begin with, and are now desperately though pathetically
trying to support your lying.

>> >> >You dis-believe without reason.
>> >>
>> >> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
>> >> people in general would have learned about it because research
>> >> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
>> >> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
>> >> public like they do with other things of interest.
>> >
>> >That has happened.

>>
>> You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
>> always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
>> exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?

>
>You mean, like you believe in a biblical plague of frogs in rice fields.


That's because of a number of people who have reported them,
plus having seen many frogs in different environments similar to
rice fields. The only thing I've seen trying to oppose the occurrence
is you who have no clue wtf you're trying to talk about, and one or
two other "aras".

>There are many written accounts by explorers, researchers and others.


No there are not.

>No video that I'm aware of, sorry, but I did link to an unusual photo.


Nope.

.. . .
>> You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
>> Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.

>
>'they', as in the hundreds of thousands alleged - "the green waterfall".
>
>> >Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.

>>
>> How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
>> info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.

>
>I have backed up logical common sense


Maybe, but not about this topic.

>with an email from a bona fide
>organic rice-farmer. -You- have yet to support your fantastical claim.


The email you presented turned out to back up diderot's claim.

>> >> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
>> >> >> and sulk away from it.
>> >> >
>> >> >You haven't answered the question.
>> >>
>> >> Which one?
>> >
>> >How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.

>>
>> The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
>> YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
>> fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.

>
>I have explained. Rivers and creeks - deep moving bodies of water - aren't
>teeming with frogs! Not even in Texas. Frogs live in still, shallow pools.


You just can't comprehend the fact that there are still pools in rivers and
creeks, and that they exist behind closed flood gates.

>> >> >> >And if his claims were true, a
>> >> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who would document it? Why?
>> >> >
>> >> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..
>> >>
>> >> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
>> >> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
>> >> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
>> >> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?
>> >
>> >Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
>> >And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
>> >crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.

>>
>> So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
>> with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
>> Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
>> electricity?

>
>Yes, it is documented, where or when it occurs.


Let's see some evidence of that.

>If such a major thing
>as you are claiming happens, it would most certainly be documented.


Let's see some evidence of that too.

>I still don't see


You see nothing, and care even less.

>these alleged hundreds of thousands. Do you?

__________________________________________________ _______
Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
conjunction with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
paddy fields

http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
rice field right next to my home

http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
their spring song from the rice fields nearby.

http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
mess due to frog guts from their boots.

http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:08:17 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>><dh@.> wrote
>>
>>[..]
>>> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
>>> but they remain facts none the less.

>>
>>Some people (i.e. you) point out "facts" that have no relevance.
>>
>>> It really says a lot about them
>>> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
>>> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
>>> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.

>>
>>It says a lot about you that you persist in "pointing out" that meat
>>consumption leads to animals "getting to experience life" when that fact
>>has
>>no place whatever in the discussion.

>
> It has no place in promoting "ar"


It has no place in promoting the ethical use of animals in agriculture
either. It has no place in the discussion PERIOD.

> but is certainly a very significant
> aspect of human influence on animals none the less.


It certainly is NOT significant. It is important for AW to realize that
animals are sentient living beings, it of no importance whatsoever that
farming them means they "get to experience life", none.

>>>>Or Diderot
>>>>might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>>>>deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>>>>rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>>>>be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>>>>object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>>>>account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>>>>is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>>>>sorts of reasons.
>>>
>>> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
>>> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
>>> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is. It's most
>>> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
>>> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
>>> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
>>> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.

>>
>>Those billions of animals that live and die in rice paddies also "get to
>>experience life", do you "consider" that to be a "positive aspect" of rice
>>consumption, eh ****wit?

>
> In some cases, douche. In others not. Since it never is iyo, you
> necessarily are incapable of comprehending any distinction between
> when it would be and when it wouldn't.


LOL! I enjoy frying you on the spit of your own barbeque.


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dh@. wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 16:32:07 -0700, "Florida" > wrote:
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> They don't correct him. The only one who even pretended to provide
> >> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
> >> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
> >> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same area.

> >
> > ..sigh... Grievous work, attempting to make smart remarks to folks
> >who don't appear to use their 'smart' setting.

>
> There's nothing smart about denying cds in crop production, and
> especially in rice production. Instead there's only stupidity, ignorance,
> and extreme dishonesty.


Yes, that is true. I'm not making light of your concern over the
deaths of other species, but thought, wrongly, it seems, that you would
realize that I was making an ironic remark at the illogicality of
admitting that amphibians die in organic rice fields, while pretending
they don't die in the much larger commercial fields.
Ok, there it is. That's my third try at a comment on this subject.
If this one doesn't work, I give up. The frogs are on their own.
Well, except for the frogs on our property, where they are treated
as worthy fellow critters who have as much right to be there as we do.

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On 7 Sep 2006 13:42:44 -0700, wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 2 Sep 2006 16:32:07 -0700, "Florida" > wrote:
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> They don't correct him. The only one who even pretended to provide
>> >> another impression was pearl who didn't object to "Florida's" insane
>> >> suggestion that there ae no cds, but pasted the Lindburg garbage
>> >> about the number of cds being no worse than road kill in the same area.
>> >
>> > ..sigh... Grievous work, attempting to make smart remarks to folks
>> >who don't appear to use their 'smart' setting.

>>
>> There's nothing smart about denying cds in crop production, and
>> especially in rice production. Instead there's only stupidity, ignorance,
>> and extreme dishonesty.

>
> Yes, that is true. I'm not making light of your concern over the
>deaths of other species, but thought, wrongly, it seems, that you would
>realize that I was making an ironic remark at the illogicality of
>admitting that amphibians die in organic rice fields, while pretending
>they don't die in the much larger commercial fields.


I've been dealing with the ignorance, absurdity and dishonesty of
"animal rights" idiots for years. So what could very well be a witty
sarcastic remark could also very well be taken as just another example
of "ar" idiocy, if one person doesn't really know where the other
person is coming from. Since most of the people participating in the
ngs I deal with are "ar" freaks, I tend to expect idiocy to be the case
more often then sarcasm. The idiot "pearl" for example has claimed
that the frogs don't exist, explained how she "thinks" the frogs she
doesn't think exist manage to survive when the fields are drained,
riduculed the fact that frogs, eggs and tadpoles can be washed
into rice fields when they are flooded using river or creek water,
and suggested that the frogs she claims don't exist live and
reproduce in the field margines returning to them when the fields
are dried. With ding bats like that around, and others supporting
the idiocy, I tend to expect the worst because that's the norm
when dealing with "aras".

> Ok, there it is. That's my third try at a comment on this subject.
>If this one doesn't work, I give up. The frogs are on their own.
> Well, except for the frogs on our property, where they are treated
>as worthy fellow critters who have as much right to be there as we do.


So far I don't really know where you're coming from or what
your position is on this. If you farm rice, I'd be interested in what
you have to say regarding details about the whole thing. Also if
you're a farmer, would you agree that some livestock have lives
of positive value and some don't, and that their lives should be
given as much consideration as their deaths?
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On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:28:00 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:

>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:08:17 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>>><dh@.> wrote
>>>
>>>[..]
>>>> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
>>>> but they remain facts none the less.
>>>
>>>Some people (i.e. you) point out "facts" that have no relevance.
>>>
>>>> It really says a lot about them
>>>> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
>>>> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
>>>> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.
>>>
>>>It says a lot about you that you persist in "pointing out" that meat
>>>consumption leads to animals "getting to experience life" when that fact
>>>has
>>>no place whatever in the discussion.

>>
>> It has no place in promoting "ar"

>
>It has no place in promoting the ethical use of animals in agriculture
>either.


Yes it does.

>It has no place in the discussion PERIOD.


You've had about five years to think of a good reason why we
should not give the animals' lives as much consideration as their
deaths, and so far the only reasons you've been able to provide
have been shit. They a

1. "aras" don't want us to.
2. YOU don't want us to (but you're an "ara").
3. you claim we should think of it in the same way we think
of child prostition.

>> but is certainly a very significant
>> aspect of human influence on animals none the less.

>
>It certainly is NOT significant.


It is for billions of animals.

>It is important for AW to realize that
>animals are sentient living beings, it of no importance whatsoever that
>farming them means they "get to experience life", none.


It is for billions of animals.

> >>>>Or Diderot
>>>>>might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>>>>>deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>>>>>rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>>>>>be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>>>>>object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>>>>>account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>>>>>is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>>>>>sorts of reasons.
>>>>
>>>> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
>>>> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
>>>> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is. It's most
>>>> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
>>>> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
>>>> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
>>>> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.
>>>
>>>Those billions of animals that live and die in rice paddies also "get to
>>>experience life", do you "consider" that to be a "positive aspect" of rice
>>>consumption, eh ****wit?

>>
>> In some cases, douche. In others not. Since it never is iyo, you
>> necessarily are incapable of comprehending any distinction between
>> when it would be and when it wouldn't.

>
>LOL! I enjoy frying you on the spit of your own barbeque.


You could have no clue since you could never come close to
doing anything like that, you poor moron.


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<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:37:52 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

> ><..>
> >> >A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.
> >>
> >> LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
> >> would they get there?

> >
> >Why wouldn't they? They like humid areas with still shallow pools.
> >Margins left untouched would provide permanent habitat for frogs.
> >
> >> >> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> >> >> >> along.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> >> >> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> >> >> >> damn funny.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like what?
> >> >
> >> >I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.
> >>
> >> I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.

> >
> >I'm not giving it to you again.

>
> You lied to begin with, and are now desperately though pathetically
> trying to support your lying.


Unlike you, I don't lie.

> >> >> >You dis-believe without reason.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
> >> >> people in general would have learned about it because research
> >> >> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
> >> >> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
> >> >> public like they do with other things of interest.
> >> >
> >> >That has happened.
> >>
> >> You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
> >> always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
> >> exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?

> >
> >You mean, like you believe in a biblical plague of frogs in rice fields.

>
> That's because of a number of people who have reported them,


In Texas? Show us.

> plus having seen many frogs in different environments similar to
> rice fields.


Areas that are allowed to dry, and harvested twice a year?

> The only thing I've seen trying to oppose the occurrence
> is you who have no clue wtf you're trying to talk about, and one or
> two other "aras".


Let's see your documentation of hundreds of thousands in Texas rice fields.

> >There are many written accounts by explorers, researchers and others.

>
> No there are not.


Yes, there are.

> >No video that I'm aware of, sorry, but I did link to an unusual photo.

>
> Nope.


More than once.

> . . .
> >> You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
> >> Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.

> >
> >'they', as in the hundreds of thousands alleged - "the green waterfall".
> >
> >> >Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.
> >>
> >> How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
> >> info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.

> >
> >I have backed up logical common sense

>
> Maybe, but not about this topic.


About this topic.

> >with an email from a bona fide
> >organic rice-farmer. -You- have yet to support your fantastical claim.

>
> The email you presented turned out to back up diderot's claim.


Quote?

> >> >> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> >> >> >> and sulk away from it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You haven't answered the question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Which one?
> >> >
> >> >How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.
> >>
> >> The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
> >> YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
> >> fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.

> >
> >I have explained. Rivers and creeks - deep moving bodies of water - aren't
> >teeming with frogs! Not even in Texas. Frogs live in still, shallow pools.

>
> You just can't comprehend the fact that there are still pools in rivers and
> creeks, and that they exist behind closed flood gates.


And just there, there are hundreds of thousands of frogs, spawn and tadpoles?
Ridiculous. What happened to your claim that they come from "upstream"?

> >> >> >> >And if his claims were true, a
> >> >> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who would document it? Why?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..
> >> >>
> >> >> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
> >> >> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
> >> >> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
> >> >> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?
> >> >
> >> >Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
> >> >And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
> >> >crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
> >> with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
> >> Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
> >> electricity?

> >
> >Yes, it is documented, where or when it occurs.

>
> Let's see some evidence of that.


Results 1 - 10 of about 819,000 for pesticides bird kill.

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,590,000 for pesticides fish kill.

> >If such a major thing
> >as you are claiming happens, it would most certainly be documented.

>
> Let's see some evidence of that too.


See above.

> >I still don't see

>
> You see nothing, and care even less.


Baseless insults and lies will get you nowhere.

> >these alleged hundreds of thousands. Do you?

> __________________________________________________ _______
> Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
> conjunction


"in conjuction" means 'joined to'. In the areas described below,
harvesting is manual, and therefore the wildlife can thrive as the
fields and surrounding areas will serve as an established habitat.

If you went in there with a mechanic harvester, yes, you'd likely
get your "green waterfall" - once. > That's an ecosystem gone.

> with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
> acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
> systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
> within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
> rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.
>
> http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
> paddy fields
>
> http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
> rice field right next to my home
>
> http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
> paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
> was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
> their spring song from the rice fields nearby.
>
> http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
> of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
> the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
> sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
> mess due to frog guts from their boots.
>
> http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯



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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 6 Sep 2006 17:21:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>
>dh@. wrote:
>> On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
>> >> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.
>> >>
>> >> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
>> >> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
>> >> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
>> >> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
>> >> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
>> >> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
>> >> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
>> >> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
>> >> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
>> >> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >What reason?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
>> >> >> >> >> Duh.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
>> >> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
>> >> >> >> >accordingly.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> They don't correct him.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
>> >> >> are actually killed in rice production,
>> >> >
>> >> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
>> >> >coming up with estimates of your own.
>> >>
>> >> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
>> >> experience, so you just say it isn't true.
>> >
>> >No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not. Others
>> >who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
>> >position.
>> >
>> >> What reason would a
>> >> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
>> >> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
>> >> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
>> >> would diderot lie and say there are more?
>> >
>> >Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
>> >deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.

>>
>> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
>> but they remain facts none the less.

>
>People make claims, which some ethical vegetarians dispute.


Here's another fact that "ethical" veg*ns hate: Some livestock
have lives of positive value. Here's another: The lives of animals
raised for food should be given as much or more consideration
than their deaths.

>> It really says a lot about them
>> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
>> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
>> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.
>>

>
>What does it say about them that they are not convinced?


That they will eat rice regardless of the deaths involved with it,
and that they will deny the deaths in order to cling to their belief
that they are the ethical champions of the world.

>> >Or Diderot
>> >might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
>> >deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
>> >rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
>> >be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
>> >object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
>> >account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
>> >is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
>> >sorts of reasons.

>>
>> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
>> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
>> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is.

>
>Nonsense.


Then why would anyone selling organic rice lie and say it's worse
than it is?

>It's the anecdotal testimony of one person who claims to be a
>rice farmer. What we need is some sort of scientific investigation of
>the issue. Only then will it be possible to have well-founded beliefs
>about the matter.
>
>Diderot clearly has an agenda to push.


What is it then, and why would he push it?

>It's totally irrational to say
>that there is some reason to think Pearl would lie to make her position
>more plausible,


LOL!!! There are ONLY reasons to think that "pearl" would lie,
and absolutely NO reasons not to.

>but there is no reason to think Diderot would.


There's no reason to think that diderot would lie...at least no good
reason why that any of us have been able to come up with so far.

>> It's most
>> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
>> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
>> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
>> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.

>
>How would you know whether it's the case or not?


Because of the absurd reactions by veg*ns--and ONLY by veg*ns--to
wildlife deaths associated with rice production.

>There are some people
>posting here who are not yet convinced that what Diderot says is
>entirely true. That doesn't mean they don't care about human influence
>on animals. You have no reason for thinking anyone here lacks concern
>about human influence on animals.


I have ONLY reason to believe that no veg*n I've ever encountered
online cares anywhere near as much about human influence on animals
as they do about promoting veg*nism. Even when animal products
contribute to fewer deaths than vegetable products AND provide decent
lives for livestock veg*ns still promote the vegetable products over the
animal products....and usually if not always they do it dishonestly....in fact
I can't recall a veg*n EVER being honest about doing so.
  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 692
Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:59:00 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:19:29 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On 2 Sep 2006 11:47:30 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message
> >> >> .. .
> >> >> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:33 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> ><..>
> >> >> >> >"Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
> >> >> >> >the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
> >> >> >> >the road kill on a mile of highway.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That's an obvious lie, and anyone who's aware that animals don't
> >> >> >> live on asphalt should be able to understand why.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Where's the obvious lie? Animals traverse highways, and numerous
> >> >> >vehicles are constantly speeding along them.., but animals can easily
> >> >> >move out of the way of slow machinery making one pass in the field.
> >> >>
> >> >> Even if somehow, incredibly, no animals were killed by harvesters:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://tinyurl.com/gcpzk
> >> >>
> >> >> the environment they had depended on for shelter from predators is
> >> >> removed and predators kill them because they have nowhere left
> >> >> to hide.
> >> >
> >> >Where are all 'these' frogs coming from, dh@?
> >>
> >> Upstream.

> >
> >Yeah... like in Texas flowing streams are swarming with frogs .. Rotfl!

>
> Some are.


There may be quite a few along the banks, and in stiller, shallow water..

> Here's something else you can't comprehend: there are
> sometimes tadpoles too. Something else you won't be able to grasp:
> there is often still water behind the flood gates where eggs are laid
> and tadpoles hatch and live, and when the gate is opened the eggs
> and tadpoles are swept along with the water.


Sure.. there are hundreds of thousands of eggs and tadpoles -right there-.

(Describe these 'flood gates', dh@. How do they operate exactly?)

And, sadly for you, frogspawn and young tadpoles cling to plants:

'.. the spawn was floating in the middle of the pond, attached to a
marginal plant whose top leaves were just breaking the surface of
the water. ' [image of frogspawn attached to plant]
http://www.turning-earth.co.uk/frogspawn.php

'A female spawns the frogspawn in small portions, in the form of
small clusters attached to shoots of water plants. There are
approximately from 20 to 150 eggs in such a cluster. An egg is light
- brown on side and light - yellow on the other side.

The development cycle for the larva lasts for approximately 3 months.
At first, tadpoles attach themselves to water plants with the use of the
pad while more mature forms of these swim freely. Before transformation,
they usually reach the length ranging from 46 to 49 millimetres. After the
transformation, young tree frogs leave their water reservoir.
...'
http://www.wigry.win.pl/plazy2/rzet_en.htm

> >> >Show us some other documentation of this alleged mass slaughter.


Waiting....

> >> ><diderot fiction snipped.>
> >> >..
> >> >> Why would I "want to believe" that so many animals are killed in
> >> >> rice production.
> >> >
> >> >To feel better about the billions of deaths caused by the livestock industry.
> >>
> >> Since you don't believe there are a significant number of cds involved
> >> with crop production, which deaths do you think you're referring to, have
> >> you any idea?

> >
> >Of course.

>
> Which ones?


The billions of livestock killed; the wildlife directly slaughtered as 'predators',
'competitors', and 'pests'; the collateral deaths in 30 million hectares of feed..


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:37:52 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:22 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

> ><..>
> >> >A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.
> >>
> >> LOL. I mean: Why would they be in "the field margins", and how
> >> would they get there?

> >
> >Why wouldn't they? They like humid areas with still shallow pools.
> >Margins left untouched would provide permanent habitat for frogs.
> >
> >> >> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> >> >> >> along.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> >> >> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> >> >> >> damn funny.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like what?
> >> >
> >> >I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.
> >>
> >> I don't believe you, but would like to see you try.

> >
> >I'm not giving it to you again.

>
> You lied to begin with, and are now desperately though pathetically
> trying to support your lying.


Unlike you, I don't lie.

> >> >> >You dis-believe without reason.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
> >> >> people in general would have learned about it because research
> >> >> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
> >> >> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
> >> >> public like they do with other things of interest.
> >> >
> >> >That has happened.
> >>
> >> You're the only person I've ever known of to think so. Do you
> >> always believe that btw, or do you sometimes think they don't
> >> exist like you sometimes think there are no frogs in rice fields?

> >
> >You mean, like you believe in a biblical plague of frogs in rice fields.

>
> That's because of a number of people who have reported them,


In Texas? Show us.

> plus having seen many frogs in different environments similar to
> rice fields.


Areas that are allowed to dry and then harvested twice a year?

> The only thing I've seen trying to oppose the occurrence
> is you who have no clue wtf you're trying to talk about, and one or
> two other "aras".


Let's see your documentation of hundreds of thousands in Texas rice fields.

> >There are many written accounts by explorers, researchers and others.

>
> No there are not.


Yes, there are.

> >No video that I'm aware of, sorry, but I did link to an unusual photo.

>
> Nope.


More than once.

> . . .
> >> You emphatically stated that you "don't think that 'they' are there!"
> >> Now you're amusingly trying to pretend differently.

> >
> >'they', as in the hundreds of thousands alleged - "the green waterfall".
> >
> >> >Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.
> >>
> >> How many? How could you possibly have any clue? Present some
> >> info from a reliable source to back up your absurd sounding claim.

> >
> >I have backed up logical common sense

>
> Maybe, but not about this topic.


About this topic.

> >with an email from a bona fide
> >organic rice-farmer. -You- have yet to support your fantastical claim.

>
> The email you presented turned out to back up diderot's claim.


Quote?

> >> >> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> >> >> >> and sulk away from it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You haven't answered the question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Which one?
> >> >
> >> >How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.
> >>
> >> The only thing to suggest that diderot lied is YOU, and you're insane.
> >> YOU need to explain why frogs and tadpoles could not get into rice
> >> fields when they are flooded with water from rives and/or creeks.

> >
> >I have explained. Rivers and creeks - deep moving bodies of water - aren't
> >teeming with frogs! Not even in Texas. Frogs live in still, shallow pools.

>
> You just can't comprehend the fact that there are still pools in rivers and
> creeks, and that they exist behind closed flood gates.


And right there, there are hundreds of thousands of frogs, spawn and tadpoles?

> >> >> >> >And if his claims were true, a
> >> >> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who would document it? Why?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..
> >> >>
> >> >> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
> >> >> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
> >> >> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
> >> >> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?
> >> >
> >> >Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
> >> >And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
> >> >crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that people should give no thought to cds involved
> >> with any type of crop production? How about wood and paper production?
> >> Construction of roads and building? Mining operations? Production of
> >> electricity?

> >
> >Yes, it is documented, where or when it occurs.

>
> Let's see some evidence of that.


Results 1 - 10 of about 819,000 for pesticides bird kill.

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,590,000 for pesticides fish kill.

> >If such a major thing
> >as you are claiming happens, it would most certainly be documented.

>
> Let's see some evidence of that too.


See above.

> >I still don't see

>
> You see nothing, and care even less.


Baseless insults and lies will get you nowhere.

> >these alleged hundreds of thousands. Do you?

> __________________________________________________ _______
> Fish, frogs, snails, insects, and other aquatic organisms that thrive in
> conjunction


--restore--

"in conjuction" means 'joined to'. In the areas described below,
harvesting is manual, and therefore the wildlife can thrive as the
fields and surrounding areas will serve as an established habitat.

If you went in there with a mechanic harvester, yes, you'd likely
get your "green waterfall" - once. > That's an ecosystem gone.

--end restore--

Why did you snip that, dh@? I think you need to address it.

> with rice are a source of animal protein and essential fatty
> acids. In addition, various kinds of livestock are supported by rice-based
> systems. Ducks feed on small fish, other aquatic organisms, and weeds
> within the paddy fields, while buffaloes, cattle, sheep and goats graze on
> rice straw as their main food source in rice-producing areas.
>
> http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/67607.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> Thousands of frogs which keep BPH under check were caught from
> paddy fields
>
> http://www.indianspices.com/html/prodev_ipm.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> As I type, I am listening to the din of the thousands of frogs that inhabit the
> rice field right next to my home
>
> http://www.cosmicbuddha.com/adam/archives/000559.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> at night we were eaten alive by the millions of mosquitoes that bred in the
> paddy fields directly opposite and all around the camp. At night too there
> was a deafening orchestra of thousands upon thousands of frogs
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4221226.shtml
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> when we opened the window at night, we heard thousands of frogs croaking
> their spring song from the rice fields nearby.
>
> http://www.webscapades.com/cust-feedback.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> __________________________________________________ _______
> During the late summer, you had to be careful where you stepped. Thousands
> of frogs hopped around on the ground, a product of the monsoon season, and
> the rice paddies that were everywhere. Patty hated to step on them, but
> sometimes it just happened. The corridor and ready room floors were always a
> mess due to frog guts from their boots.
>
> http://ed-thelen.org/gatto_40-44.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯





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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


dh@. wrote:
> On 6 Sep 2006 17:21:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dh@. wrote:
> >> On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of the
> >> >> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.
> >> >>
> >> >> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
> >> >> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
> >> >> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will have
> >> >> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the numbers i
> >> >> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for machine-farmed
> >> >> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." - diderot
> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are opposed to seeing
> >> >> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >What reason?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it pointed out.
> >> >> >> >> >> Duh.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people believe
> >> >> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they respond
> >> >> >> >> >accordingly.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> They don't correct him.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many animals
> >> >> >> are actually killed in rice production,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says without
> >> >> >coming up with estimates of your own.
> >> >>
> >> >> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
> >> >> experience, so you just say it isn't true.
> >> >
> >> >No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not. Others
> >> >who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
> >> >position.
> >> >
> >> >> What reason would a
> >> >> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
> >> >> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
> >> >> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
> >> >> would diderot lie and say there are more?
> >> >
> >> >Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
> >> >deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.
> >>
> >> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
> >> but they remain facts none the less.

> >
> >People make claims, which some ethical vegetarians dispute.

>
> Here's another fact that "ethical" veg*ns hate: Some livestock
> have lives of positive value. Here's another: The lives of animals
> raised for food should be given as much or more consideration
> than their deaths.
>


Yes, well we've discussed this before. The argument that if livestock
have sufficiently good lives, this justifies bringing them into
existence, inflicting painful mutilations on them without anaesthetic,
and killing them for food, is not a "fact" that ethical vegans hate, it
is a highly contentious and disputed argument. An important point to
address is: would it be permissible to do the same thing to humans, and
if not, what's the morally relevant difference? I really had a tough
time getting an answer out of you on this one, but at one point you
seemed to say it would be permissible to do the same thing to humans. I
think most people would find this pretty difficult to swallow. You're
entitled to your opinion, but you should be upfront about what your
claims are.

> >> It really says a lot about them
> >> that "ethical" vegetarians appear to be the only people who are
> >> opposed to seeing such aspects of human influence on animals
> >> being pointed out, even though everyone is involved with them.
> >>

> >
> >What does it say about them that they are not convinced?

>
> That they will eat rice regardless of the deaths involved with it,


The fact that they are not convinced of Diderot's claims certainly does
not prove that they will eat rice regardless of how much harm they
think it causes. They are not convinced that rice production causes a
lot of harm, and in any case you don't know whether they eat rice or
not. If you think there are good ethical reasons to eat less or no rice
and you want to advocate that, go ahead.

> and that they will deny the deaths in order to cling to their belief
> that they are the ethical champions of the world.
>


Any opinion they express is not an attempt to cling to a belief, it is
a sincerely held opinion.

If you present an argument and someone's not convinced, the rational
thing to do is defend the argument, not say that this reflects poorly
on them as a person.

> >> >Or Diderot
> >> >might have presented an exaggerated, distorted, picture without
> >> >deliberately intending to. Just because Diderot claims he is an organic
> >> >rice former is no reason why this single individual's testimony should
> >> >be taken as the final word on the matter, and cannot rationally be the
> >> >object of skepticism or criticism. I do not know whether Diderot's
> >> >account of the matter is correct or not. It is quite possible that it
> >> >is, but there is also plenty of room for reasonable doubt, for all
> >> >sorts of reasons.
> >>
> >> There are none. There is much reason to believe he's correct,
> >> no reason to believe he's not, and no apparent reason why anyone
> >> selling organic rice would lie and say it's worse than it is.

> >
> >Nonsense.

>
> Then why would anyone selling organic rice lie and say it's worse
> than it is?
>


You said there is not the slightest reason to doubt that his testimony
is the gospel truth. That is nonsense. He is a stranger who made a post
to the internet a few years ago. You have absolutely no way of knowing
whether his estimates are reasonable or not. You don't even know
whether he is a rice farmer. He has a desire to convince people that
the arguments in favour of ethical vegetarianism are flawed. If it is
possible that Pearl might lie in order to persuade people of her
position, then it is possible that Diderot might intentionally or
unintentionally distort the truth in order to persuade people of his
position. As you point out, there is not much danger of a serious
impact on the sales of organic rice.

> >It's the anecdotal testimony of one person who claims to be a
> >rice farmer. What we need is some sort of scientific investigation of
> >the issue. Only then will it be possible to have well-founded beliefs
> >about the matter.
> >
> >Diderot clearly has an agenda to push.

>
> What is it then, and why would he push it?
>


See above.

> >It's totally irrational to say
> >that there is some reason to think Pearl would lie to make her position
> >more plausible,

>
> LOL!!! There are ONLY reasons to think that "pearl" would lie,
> and absolutely NO reasons not to.
>
> >but there is no reason to think Diderot would.

>
> There's no reason to think that diderot would lie...at least no good
> reason why that any of us have been able to come up with so far.
>


To repeat, there is no more reason to think that Pearl would lie than
to think that Diderot would. You're being ridiculous.

> >> It's most
> >> likely the reason he felt safe in doing so is because he's aware that
> >> the majority of organic rice consumers don't care enough about
> >> human influence on animals to even take such facts into consideration,
> >> and this ng experience has certainly suggested that is the case.

> >
> >How would you know whether it's the case or not?

>
> Because of the absurd reactions by veg*ns--and ONLY by veg*ns--to
> wildlife deaths associated with rice production.
>


I see no reason to think they're not prepared to take the facts into
consideration, just that they have a sincere doubt that they are indeed
facts. If you think they're facts it's your job to argue your case.

> >There are some people
> >posting here who are not yet convinced that what Diderot says is
> >entirely true. That doesn't mean they don't care about human influence
> >on animals. You have no reason for thinking anyone here lacks concern
> >about human influence on animals.

>
> I have ONLY reason to believe that no veg*n I've ever encountered
> online cares anywhere near as much about human influence on animals
> as they do about promoting veg*nism.


They want to promote veganism *because* they care about human influence
on animals. Why else would they do it? Factory-farming causes enormous
suffering, and most animal products have large crop inputs and would
therefore have far more CDs per serving than rice. Vegans want to
reduce the amount of harm caused by agriculture. Maybe some of them
have a blind spot about certain types of agriculture, if so, that's
unfortunate. But it's ridiculous to suggest they don't care about human
influence on animals. Reducing human influence on animals is the whole
point.

> Even when animal products
> contribute to fewer deaths than vegetable products AND provide decent
> lives for livestock veg*ns still promote the vegetable products over the
> animal products....and usually if not always they do it dishonestly....in fact
> I can't recall a veg*n EVER being honest about doing so.


The issue of bringing livestock into existence who have tolerably good
lives, if marred by unanaesthetized branding and surgical mutilations,
is a red herring. A transition to veganism would cause more wildlife to
exist. There is no merit in producing animal products that derives from
bringing animals into existence. Your only argument is the comparison
of death rates. It's your job to provide the evidence on that one. The
reason some vegans don't go along with you in encouraging the
consumption of grass-fed beef is because they haven't yet accepted your
case that it causes fewer deaths. It's your job to provide the
evidence. There is no dishonesty involved.



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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


"Rupert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> dh@. wrote:
>> On 6 Sep 2006 17:21:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >dh@. wrote:
>> >> >> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of
>> >> >> >the
>> >> >> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
>> >> >> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
>> >> >> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the
>> >> >> numbers i
>> >> >> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for
>> >> >> machine-farmed
>> >> >> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." -
>> >> >> diderot
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >sort of presumption
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >to think anyone
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >animals are killed
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> opposed to seeing
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >What reason?
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it
>> >> >> >> >> >> pointed out.
>> >> >> >> >> >> Duh.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people
>> >> >> >> >> >believe
>> >> >> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they
>> >> >> >> >> >respond
>> >> >> >> >> >accordingly.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> They don't correct him.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many
>> >> >> >> animals
>> >> >> >> are actually killed in rice production,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says
>> >> >> >without
>> >> >> >coming up with estimates of your own.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
>> >> >> experience, so you just say it isn't true.
>> >> >
>> >> >No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not.
>> >> >Others
>> >> >who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
>> >> >position.
>> >> >
>> >> >> What reason would a
>> >> >> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
>> >> >> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
>> >> >> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
>> >> >> would diderot lie and say there are more?
>> >> >
>> >> >Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
>> >> >deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.
>> >>
>> >> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
>> >> but they remain facts none the less.
>> >
>> >People make claims, which some ethical vegetarians dispute.

>>
>> Here's another fact that "ethical" veg*ns hate: Some livestock
>> have lives of positive value. Here's another: The lives of animals
>> raised for food should be given as much or more consideration
>> than their deaths.
>>

>
> Yes, well we've discussed this before. The argument that if livestock
> have sufficiently good lives, this justifies bringing them into
> existence, inflicting painful mutilations on them without anaesthetic,
> and killing them for food, is not a "fact" that ethical vegans hate, it
> is a highly contentious and disputed argument. An important point to
> address is: would it be permissible to do the same thing to humans, and
> if not, what's the morally relevant difference?


The morally relevant difference lies in the essential difference between
humans and the animal species we use as food, or kill in crop fields, or
what-have-you.

> I really had a tough
> time getting an answer out of you on this one, but at one point you
> seemed to say it would be permissible to do the same thing to humans.


There's no reason to say that because we accept the killing and/or use of
animals in agriculture that we must implicitly approve of the killing of
humans. There are relevant differences between animal species, in their
intelligence and level of awareness. The argument that a few humans have
little intelligence (like ****wit) can be dismissed, as I have said to you
before, the issue is that no animals we use as food or kill in agriculture
have anything remotely like human characteristics.


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


Dutch wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > dh@. wrote:
> >> On 6 Sep 2006 17:21:31 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> On 5 Sep 2006 15:49:49 -0700, "Rupert" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >dh@. wrote:
> >> >> >> On 4 Sep 2006 19:36:31 -0700, "Rupert" >
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >I hope people will make a sincere effort to find out the truth of
> >> >> >> >the
> >> >> >> >matter. Diderot's account may or may not be correct.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "- every farming environment has a different mix of animals and the
> >> >> >> largest number and largest variety, both, will be found in
> >> >> >> semi-tropical, mixed ecology lands like we have. monocultures will
> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> the smallest numbers and the smallest numbers of species. the
> >> >> >> numbers i
> >> >> >> have presented hold true in the gulf-coastal plains for
> >> >> >> machine-farmed
> >> >> >> organic rice and may well vary in california and arkansas." -
> >> >> >> diderot
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >sort of presumption
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >against killing sentient animals. You have no reason
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >to think anyone
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >animals are killed
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >in the course of rice production.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> So far I have reason to believe that veg*ns are
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> opposed to seeing
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> it pointed out. Damn good reason in fact.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >What reason?
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> The opposition you people have presented to seeing it
> >> >> >> >> >> >> pointed out.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Duh.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >No-one's opposed to anything being pointed out. Some people
> >> >> >> >> >> >believe
> >> >> >> >> >> >Diderot's account of the matter distorts the truth, so they
> >> >> >> >> >> >respond
> >> >> >> >> >> >accordingly.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> They don't correct him.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >They have taken issue with certain things he said.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> No one has even tried to correct him and tell us how many
> >> >> >> >> animals
> >> >> >> >> are actually killed in rice production,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >That's because they don't know. You can criticize what he says
> >> >> >> >without
> >> >> >> >coming up with estimates of your own.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You don't want to believe what he has learned from first hand
> >> >> >> experience, so you just say it isn't true.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No, I do not say this. I do not know whether it is true or not.
> >> >> >Others
> >> >> >who have denied some of the things he said have argued for their
> >> >> >position.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> What reason would a
> >> >> >> man who farms organic rice have for lying and saying there are
> >> >> >> MORE deaths involved than there really are? We know why
> >> >> >> Lunberg and "pearl" would lie and say there are fewer, but why
> >> >> >> would diderot lie and say there are more?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Someone concerned to undermine the ethical vegetarian position might
> >> >> >deliberately exaggerate the harm involved in rice farming.
> >> >>
> >> >> People point out facts that "ethical" vegetarians hate and deny,
> >> >> but they remain facts none the less.
> >> >
> >> >People make claims, which some ethical vegetarians dispute.
> >>
> >> Here's another fact that "ethical" veg*ns hate: Some livestock
> >> have lives of positive value. Here's another: The lives of animals
> >> raised for food should be given as much or more consideration
> >> than their deaths.
> >>

> >
> > Yes, well we've discussed this before. The argument that if livestock
> > have sufficiently good lives, this justifies bringing them into
> > existence, inflicting painful mutilations on them without anaesthetic,
> > and killing them for food, is not a "fact" that ethical vegans hate, it
> > is a highly contentious and disputed argument. An important point to
> > address is: would it be permissible to do the same thing to humans, and
> > if not, what's the morally relevant difference?

>
> The morally relevant difference lies in the essential difference between
> humans and the animal species we use as food, or kill in crop fields, or
> what-have-you.
>


You can identify some differences which hold between most humans and
most nonhumans and claim that they are morally relevant, but there will
always be some humans who don't have these differences from nonhuman
animals.

> > I really had a tough
> > time getting an answer out of you on this one, but at one point you
> > seemed to say it would be permissible to do the same thing to humans.

>
> There's no reason to say that because we accept the killing and/or use of
> animals in agriculture that we must implicitly approve of the killing of
> humans. There are relevant differences between animal species, in their
> intelligence and level of awareness. The argument that a few humans have
> little intelligence (like ****wit) can be dismissed,


It can't be dismissed. It has to be come to terms with. If we hold that
it is permissible to do these things to nonhuman animals because they
lack certain characteristics, then we must also hold that it would be
permissible to do the same things to humans who lack the
characteristics. Most people would find this counter-intuitive. The
position may be right, but someone who wants to advocate it should be
upfront about it, and say "I hold that it is permissible to do these
things to nonhuman animals because they lack these characteristics -
and I also hold that it would be permissible to do these things to
humans who lack the characteristics." Very few defenders of animal
agriculture are actually prepared to come out and say that. If they
want to say it, fine, then the matter can be debated. But if they hold
that it's permissible to do it to the nonhumans, but not the relevantly
similar humans, then the characteristics we identified aren't what
count after all, but rather species membership. Someone can advocate
that species membership is the crucial characteristic too, but then
they have to confront the arguments against speciesism in the
literature.

> as I have said to you
> before, the issue is that no animals we use as food or kill in agriculture
> have anything remotely like human characteristics.


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

"Rupert" > wrote
>
> Dutch wrote:


[..]
>> The morally relevant difference lies in the essential difference between
>> humans and the animal species we use as food, or kill in crop fields, or
>> what-have-you.
>>

>
> You can identify some differences which hold between most humans and
> most nonhumans and claim that they are morally relevant, but there will
> always be some humans who don't have these differences from nonhuman
> animals.


I have explained this before. Human rights are designed to protect humans
because of what we are by nature, and those rights cover all humans,
including those whose nature is not yet developed or diminished by age or
injury. We always hold by default to the hope that our human potential will
be realized.

>> > I really had a tough
>> > time getting an answer out of you on this one, but at one point you
>> > seemed to say it would be permissible to do the same thing to humans.

>>
>> There's no reason to say that because we accept the killing and/or use of
>> animals in agriculture that we must implicitly approve of the killing of
>> humans. There are relevant differences between animal species, in their
>> intelligence and level of awareness. The argument that a few humans have
>> little intelligence (like ****wit) can be dismissed,

>
> It can't be dismissed. It has to be come to terms with.


That is coming to terms with it, it is the rational conclusion.

> If we hold that
> it is permissible to do these things to nonhuman animals because they
> lack certain characteristics, then we must also hold that it would be
> permissible to do the same things to humans who lack the
> characteristics.


No, because it is the essential ability to hold these characteristics that
is the deciding factor, not actual possession of the characteristics. All
humans have the essential ability to hold the characteristics of humanness,
even if they are impaired due to misfortune. No animals of any other species
have the potential to have such abilities, ZERO.

> Most people would find this counter-intuitive. The
> position may be right, but someone who wants to advocate it should be
> upfront about it, and say "I hold that it is permissible to do these
> things to nonhuman animals because they lack these characteristics -
> and I also hold that it would be permissible to do these things to
> humans who lack the characteristics."


You're approaching the problem backwards in order to artificially reach the
conclusion you wish to reach. In order to raise other animal species to the
level of humans, which is what you are trying to do, you must find at least
one example of a member of a non-human species with capabilities equal or
similar to humans. Instead you are attempting to drag all humans down to the
level of other animals by pointing to rare humans who's human abilities are
impaired. That is not a logical approach, because impairment of abilities is
ad hoc, arbitrary and meaningless, it can occur by injury, accident, disease
or fluke of genetics, it does not exist by nature. The question is asked,
"What if a race of beings came to the earth with powers equal to or greater
than humans?" They would be accorded rights, just as any animal species
would who demonstrated capacities equivalent to humans.

> Very few defenders of animal
> agriculture are actually prepared to come out and say that. If they
> want to say it, fine, then the matter can be debated. But if they hold
> that it's permissible to do it to the nonhumans, but not the relevantly
> similar humans,


There are no animals relevantly similar to humans.

> then the characteristics we identified aren't what
> count after all, but rather species membership.


Species membership identifies all beings who either have, have the potential
to have, or have in their essence human abilities, or humaness.

> Someone can advocate
> that species membership is the crucial characteristic too, but then
> they have to confront the arguments against speciesism in the
> literature.


There are no valid arguments against speciesism. The human species possesses
special powers or the potential or inherent ability to have those powers,
even if impaired, which humans by default value above all else, it is a fact
of human culture, and of other species.

>> as I have said to you
>> before, the issue is that no animals we use as food or kill in
>> agriculture
>> have anything remotely like human characteristics.

>



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"Rupert" > wrote in message
ps.com...


>>
>> The morally relevant difference lies in the essential
>> difference between
>> humans and the animal species we use as food, or kill in crop
>> fields, or
>> what-have-you.
>>

>
> You can identify some differences which hold between most
> humans and
> most nonhumans and claim that they are morally relevant, but
> there will
> always be some humans who don't have these differences from
> nonhuman
> animals.

=====================
But the main difference still remains. Within each person is the
seed of what being human is.
No such seed exists in ANY animal. The person you claim now
doesn't have the differences from animals has the potential to
achieve those differences. No matter how much hand-waving, and
how many strawmen you prop up, NO animals will ever achive the
difference. Again, your ignorance and stupidity blind you to
reality.


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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

rick wrote:

<snip>

>>You can identify some differences which hold between most
>>humans and
>>most nonhumans and claim that they are morally relevant, but
>>there will
>>always be some humans who don't have these differences from
>>nonhuman
>>animals.


> =====================
> But the main difference still remains. Within each person is the
> seed of what being human is.


Which is what? How are you defining "human"? And, as
important, why is it morally relevant?

> No such seed exists in ANY animal.


Depends on what your definition is.

> The person you claim now
> doesn't have the differences from animals has the potential to
> achieve those differences.


That is not true for all biological members of the human species.
Pick any characteristic which is morally relevant, and you will
find at least some biological humans who lack it from birth and/or
are completely incapable of developing it. Speciesism is simply
a prejudice, like racism or sexism.

<snip>
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