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Old 20-08-2006, 07:36 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment
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Default Honest Environmental Manifesto (was: Dutch snip)

On uk.environment, in .com, " wrote:

Correction: A dishonest coward who _sometimes_ calls himself
the above, wrote:

article not downloaded:
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline

If the truth hurts, then change you ways. Posting bitchy
crap that your intended target doesn't even read won't
save the planet.

Hmmmm...Come to think of it, it will work as well as anything
else you are doing.


Alan

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Challenge-Response Systems are the best garbage-mail blockers
in the world. Spammers and trolls can't beat them and you
don't need to be a geek to use them. A brief introduction:
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/cr.html

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Old 20-08-2006, 08:52 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,sci.environment,uk.environment,alt.global-warming
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Default What If...We All Became Vegan?


[email protected] wrote in message ...
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 02:37:27 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:


[email protected] wrote in message ...
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:22:35 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:


[email protected] wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:04:21 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:

[email protected] wrote
I consider it to be very significant that the animals we raise
for
food,
do NOT know they will be killed and eaten as Salt's Logic of the
Talking
"ar" Pig and Chicken Run dishonestly encourage people to believe
they
do.

Salt's essay on The Logic of the Larder does not imply that animals
know
they are destined to be killed and eaten.

"what shall be the reply of the Pig to the Philosopher? "Revered
moralist," he might plead, "it were unseemly for me, who am to-day a
pig, and to-morrow but ham and sausages, to dispute with a master of
ethics, yet to my porcine intellect it appeareth that having first
determined
to kill and devour me . . . "

The "talking pig" is an allegorical tool intended to address the
conscience
and attitudes of the reader/consumer.

"in my entry into the world my own predilection was in no wise
considered,
nor did I purchase life on condition of my own butchery . . . "

Just like in Chicken Run http://tinyurl.com/fgtu9 the attempt is
made to
create the contemptible and dishonest impression that the animals
suffer
from
knowledge that they will be killed by humans. You make it obvious that
you're
in favor of "ar" when you oppose considering AW supporting facts like
what
the animals gain, while at the same time you promote "ar" supporting,
dishonest
kafkaesque fantasies like The Talking Pig and Chicken Run.

So you don't understand what an allegory is..

It's a supposedly moral story often involving animals,


It's not the story, it's the means of telling it, it doesn't have to be a
moral story,


It has a meaning or moral to it.


Of course it has a meaning.

and doesn't have to be animals, it can be anything. An old tree
or a house could talk about the seasons, the years and people passing by.


It's still fantasy, bringing immediately to mind the question of
whether
or not a tree could have awareness


Not unless the reader is four years old, that's how juvenile this argument
of yours is.

much less opinion about people
passing by, and what that opinion--or any sort of thoughts--would be
from the perspective of the tree. And then if it went on to knowing
intimate things about the passers by, which just everyone could not
know much less some damn tree they walk by sometimes, then it
gets to idiocy and a person must stop and think: okay, so the tree
has nothing to do with it other than as a lame excuse for the writer
to present HIS/HER pov any way he/she wants to, simply by attempting
to make it seem like the object has the ideas instead of who is actually
trying to promote them.


Of course it's point of view of the author, what else could it be?

The suggestion that a tree/pig could have
ideas it could not is fantasy,


There's that juvenile objection again.

and people like Salt use that sort of fantasy
to promote their own ideas, and that's ALL it is.


That's not a valid criticism, everyone writes in order to present their
ideas, of course that's what it is. No-one has suggested otherwise.

So Salt used the fantasy
of a pig who suffers from the knowledge that he will be killed and
butchered--all the way to knowing what sort of food he will be prepared
as!--in his obvious attempt to get people to feel that pigs suffer from
such knowledge.


That is NOT the message of this essay, it's your desperate, invalid,
strawman, juvenile objection.

I've even had "aras"--probably you yourself--say
something like: 'how would you like to live knowing you're going to
be killed and eaten...'.


That would be an invalid argument, but that argument is never presented
here.

Some people are fooled by it, and it's one of the
dishonest things people like yourself want everyone to believe even if
you don't quite believe it yourself. I know from personal experience that
you're full of shit.


Since you're the one presenting silly strawman arguments I would question
where the pile of shit is sitting.

and probably always
a fantasy. We have yet to see one that is not a fantasy, and you're not
capable of providing an example of one that is not.


It's a rhetorical device used to create interest in literature.


It's a trick to try to sneak people into accepting ideas or feelings
about an issue or issues.


It's not a trick unless you are four or have an equivalent mentality.

It's nothing more, unless it also has some
humorous attempt behind it like my typing cow.


It's used to create reader interest, not to suggest that trees or pigs can
speak English, don't be an idiot.

You're using it as a lame excuse to dismiss an argument you don't like.


What I'm using to dismiss the "argument" is the fact that you haven't
supported one, or even really defined what "it" is.


"It" is moral thinking. Moral thinking excludes circular self-justifying
forms of argument such as The Logic of the Larder or anything like it. An
example would be a man who goes to Thailand to patronize child prostitutes,
then justifies it by saying that if it weren't for him the families of those
girls would probably go hungry, which is *true*, but it does not change
whether or not it is right for him to do it. The right or wrong of an act is
fundamental to the action, not based on or rationalized by some presumed
good outcome. I have presented countless such examples which form the
"dozens" I have alluded to.




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Old 21-08-2006, 04:30 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,sci.environment,uk.environment,alt.global-warming
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Default What If...We All Became Vegan?

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:52:56 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:

dh pointed out:

Salt used the fantasy
of a pig who suffers from the knowledge that he will be killed and
butchered--all the way to knowing what sort of food he will be prepared
as!--in his obvious attempt to get people to feel that pigs suffer from
such knowledge.


That is NOT the message


It is OBVIOUSLY an impression you "aras" want people to accept,
which is why you are horrified to see the dishonesty of it pointed out. Duh.


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