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-   -   I'm considering being a vegetarian... (https://www.foodbanter.com/vegan/92770-im-considering-being-vegetarian.html)

Judy 30-05-2006 08:52 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 
I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian
ettequite to eat these things?

I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?


L3dje 30-05-2006 10:51 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 
About your healt vegeatarian is more healty as eating meat and vegan is
even more healty.

But you are considering vegetarism but dont know if you can eat fish then?
Why do you want to be vegetarian, it is just a word i choosed to become
vegetarian because i like animals and later became vegan. Mostly i say i
am on diet or so most people in holland don't even know what a vegan is
and when you say diet people seems to take you more serious (they think
your alergic or so). If you don't want to eat meat because of your healt
you just can say you rather don't eat meat because you care for your healt
or you'r not in to suicide or something like that when some one ask's
about it.

For the reason to become vegetarian or vegan look at http://goveg.com for
some info.



On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:52:48 -0700, Judy wrote:
> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian
> ettequite to eat these things?
>
> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?



chacmul 31-05-2006 09:50 AM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

Environmentally and ethically it is a good idea not to eat fish. You
may as well eat farmed animals...at least that is sustainable...the
fishing industry has screwed up sooo much of world marine eco-systems.

When someone offers me meat and I don't want to flag to the world that
I'm vegan and don't want to be rude....I say thankyou very much but I've
already eaten.


Judy wrote:
> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian
> ettequite to eat these things?
>
> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?
>



--
.....W

chacmul <*> Warren Tully >

P Darby 31-05-2006 12:04 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

"Judy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish?


Don't you mean 'you couldn't care less about red meat'?

If you are not doing it for the usual animal welfare reasons then what does
it matter whether you eat fish or not?
If you are doing it for the animal welfare reasons then you shouldn't eat
fish.


> Is it against vegetarian etiquette to eat these things?


Of course it is.
Fish aren't vegetables !


> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?


What's wrong with saying "I'm a vegetarian!"?



rick 31-05-2006 09:51 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> About your healt vegeatarian is more healty as eating meat and
> vegan is
> even more healty.

===================
Really? care to cite some real studies that prove that? vegan
is not healthy, it's a self-loathing religion, not a diet.


>
> But you are considering vegetarism but dont know if you can eat
> fish then?
> Why do you want to be vegetarian, it is just a word i choosed
> to become
> vegetarian because i like animals and later became vegan.
> Mostly i say i
> am on diet or so most people in holland don't even know what a
> vegan is
> and when you say diet people seems to take you more serious
> (they think
> your alergic or so). If you don't want to eat meat because of
> your healt
> you just can say you rather don't eat meat because you care for
> your healt
> or you'r not in to suicide or something like that when some one
> ask's
> about it.
>
> For the reason to become vegetarian or vegan look at
> http://goveg.com for
> some info.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:52:48 -0700, Judy wrote:
>> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned
>> with
>> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole
>> grains,
>> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red
>> meat,
>> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without,
>> however, are
>> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against
>> vegetarian
>> ettequite to eat these things?
>>
>> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you
>> meat
>> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?

>




rick 31-05-2006 09:56 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

"chacmul" > wrote in message
u...
>
> Environmentally and ethically it is a good idea not to eat
> fish. You may as well eat farmed animals...at least that is
> sustainable...the fishing industry has screwed up sooo much of
> world marine eco-systems.

===========================
Environmentally and ethically it's not a good idea to eat
factory-farmed mono-culture crops. You know, like all that tofu
and tvp processed crap. It destroys an environment, spreads
poisons all over, and kills animals deliberately and indirectly.
Animals are sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered, poisoned and
starved. Where's the humane treatment there?
Plus, take a look at most veg*n sites on-line. They promote
exotic foods and spices that all have to be imported from around
the world, adding even more environmental destruction.




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/fw251/
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html



To cover the power needed for food processing and
your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageId=116
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html



http://www.positivehealth.com/permit...safron30_p.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_.../headline/2334
http://www.scientific-alliance.org/t...technology.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._9/ai_86038677
http://volokh.com/posts/1094737139.shtml
http://www.syngenta.com/en/downloads...ic_Farming.pdf



>
> When someone offers me meat and I don't want to flag to the
> world that I'm vegan and don't want to be rude....I say
> thankyou very much but I've already eaten.
>
>
> Judy wrote:
>> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned
>> with
>> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole
>> grains,
>> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red
>> meat,
>> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without,
>> however, are
>> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against
>> vegetarian
>> ettequite to eat these things?
>>
>> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you
>> meat
>> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?
>>

>
>
> --
> ....W
>
> chacmul <*> Warren Tully
> >




Kevan 01-06-2006 07:37 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 
"Judy" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian
> ettequite to eat these things?
>
> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?


Hi,

Vegetarianism is different things to different people around the world.
Many consider eating dairy to be vegetarian, which is why you'll find many
Hindu dishes with butter and cheese. Some people will only eat organic
dairy, Others will eat only locally-produced dairy -- Krishnas. However, if
you care even a little bit about animal welfare, you might want to forego
dairy. Google "veal production."

You don't have to sub soy milk for animal milk. There are other things you
might try like rice milk. Since you are concerned with health, I guess you
have already given up cholesterol-laden eggs. Fish is definitely not
vegetarian, You can get essential fatty acids from plant sources, if that
is what you are concerned with.

When people offer me meat, I just say, "No, thanks, but I appreciate your
hospitality. Do you have any vegetables?" For people actively hostile to
vegetarianism, I give them another thanks and move on.

rick 01-06-2006 08:04 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

"Kevan" > wrote in message
...
> "Judy" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned
>> with
>> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole
>> grains,
>> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red
>> meat,
>> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without,
>> however, are
>> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against
>> vegetarian
>> ettequite to eat these things?
>>
>> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you
>> meat
>> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?

>
> Hi,
>
> Vegetarianism is different things to different people around
> the world.
> Many consider eating dairy to be vegetarian, which is why
> you'll find many
> Hindu dishes with butter and cheese. Some people will only eat
> organic
> dairy, Others will eat only locally-produced dairy -- Krishnas.
> However, if
> you care even a little bit about animal welfare, you might want
> to forego
> dairy. Google "veal production."

=============================
If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all,
eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and
inhumanely than beef production or dairy.



>
> You don't have to sub soy milk for animal milk. There are other
> things you
> might try like rice milk. Since you are concerned with health,
> I guess you
> have already given up cholesterol-laden eggs. Fish is
> definitely not
> vegetarian, You can get essential fatty acids from plant
> sources, if that
> is what you are concerned with.
>
> When people offer me meat, I just say, "No, thanks, but I
> appreciate your
> hospitality. Do you have any vegetables?" For people actively
> hostile to
> vegetarianism, I give them another thanks and move on.




Kevan 01-06-2006 09:05 PM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 
"rick" > wrote in
ink.net:

> If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all,
> eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and
> inhumanely than beef production or dairy.


Realizing that a perfect world according to an abstract ideal is neither
possible, practical, nor likely what I would actually want, I nevertheless
hold to my values, which is possible, practical and desirable for me. Thank
you for your input.

Moving on ....




rick 02-06-2006 05:30 AM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 

"Kevan" > wrote in message
...
> "rick" > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>> If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all,
>> eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and
>> inhumanely than beef production or dairy.

>
> Realizing that a perfect world according to an abstract ideal
> is neither
> possible, practical, nor likely what I would actually want, I
> nevertheless
> hold to my values, which is possible, practical and desirable
> for me. Thank
> you for your input.

======================
Values that mean, well, nothing...


>
> Moving on ....
> =================

Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals...


>
>




rick 02-06-2006 09:31 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> . net>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals...

>
> Just out of curiosity, do you care about animal suffering? Do
> you think
> there are areas in the relationships between animals and human
> beings
> that need improvement? What are they and what could done to
> improve them?
> ======================

Changing your diet to avoid all meats isn't anything that will
really do anything to help.

Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered
or poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
all, just as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do
I care enough about animals dying for petro-chemical production?
Not enough to quit driving, quit buying plastic products, etc.
Do I care enough about animals dying in power generation and
distribution, and communications? Not enough to stop heating my
house, not enough to stop cooking or living, and not enough to
give up usenet. All seem to be just as much as you care, huh?



> --
> fneep




L3dje 02-06-2006 11:11 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 
Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible and
try not to judge other people for what they do.

I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and animals
aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most
people only think about their self. I try to thread everybody the same but
some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just only
thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change the
world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair trade
products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be more
easy to life envirnoment friendly. Vegans do at least anything it is easy
to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as possible
with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english word)
and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.



On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:

> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or
> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, just
> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough
> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to quit
> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about
> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and communications?
> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or
> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as much
> as you care, huh?
>


rick 03-06-2006 04:05 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> "Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article
>> > . net>,
>> > "rick" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals...
>> >
>> > Just out of curiosity, do you care about animal suffering?
>> > Do
>> > you think
>> > there are areas in the relationships between animals and
>> > human
>> > beings
>> > that need improvement? What are they and what could done to
>> > improve them?
>> > ======================

>> Changing your diet to avoid all meats isn't anything that will
>> really do anything to help.
>>
>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>> dis-membered
>> or poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>> at
>> all, just as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either.
>> Do
>> I care enough about animals dying for petro-chemical
>> production?
>> Not enough to quit driving, quit buying plastic products, etc.
>> Do I care enough about animals dying in power generation and
>> distribution, and communications? Not enough to stop heating
>> my
>> house, not enough to stop cooking or living, and not enough to
>> give up usenet. All seem to be just as much as you care, huh?

>
> You dodged the questions.

=======================
No, I didn't. As usual, you have problems reading.


>
> It seems to me you aren't here to discuss anything, but rather
> for the
> fun you derive from ridicule and name calling. Enjoy your hot
> dog.

=========================
Nope. I talk truth. Something that veg*ns desperately need...



>
> --
> fneep




rick 03-06-2006 04:17 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
> possible and
> try not to judge other people for what they do.

============================
I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
usenet...


>
> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
> and animals
> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
> most
> people only think about their self.

===================
True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your
selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of
animals by the billions...


I try to thread everybody the same but
> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
> just only
> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
> change the
> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
> fair trade
> products do at least something and if everybody did this it
> would be more
> easy to life envirnoment friendly.

===========================
You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's
all imported from around the world. The only real impact you
could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that.
Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and
spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped using
large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the definition
of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that
live entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
crops can say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp
processed crap made to look/taste like meat. There are real
meats far more ecologically sound, and more humane to animals
than that stuff.


Vegans do at least anything it is easy
> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

========================
But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more
habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason for
taking an action.


>
> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as
> possible
> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
> english word)
> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>
>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>> dis-membered or
>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>> all, just
>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care
>> enough
>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough
>> to quit
>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>> about
>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>> communications?
>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>> cooking or
>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just
>> as much
>> as you care, huh?
>>




nyx 03-06-2006 07:41 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 
rick wrote:
> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> .be.added...
>
>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>possible and
>>try not to judge other people for what they do.

>
> ============================
> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
> usenet...
>
>
>
>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
>>and animals
>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>most
>>people only think about their self.

>
> ===================
> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your
> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of
> animals by the billions...
>
>
> I try to thread everybody the same but
>
>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
>>just only
>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>change the
>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>fair trade
>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>would be more
>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.

>
> ===========================
> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
> Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's
> all imported from around the world. The only real impact you
> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that.
> Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and
> spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped using
> large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the definition
> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that
> live entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
> crops can say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp
> processed crap made to look/taste like meat. There are real
> meats far more ecologically sound, and more humane to animals
> than that stuff.
>
>
> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>
>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

>
> ========================
> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more
> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
> good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason for
> taking an action.
>
>
>
>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as
>>possible
>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>english word)
>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>dis-membered or
>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>>>all, just
>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care
>>>enough
>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough
>>>to quit
>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>>>about
>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>communications?
>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>cooking or
>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just
>>>as much
>>>as you care, huh?
>>>

>
>
>

Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of "vegan",
what would a person have to do to actually be a "vegan" to satisfy this
definition?

You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I wonder...

...if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did it, then
would you be happy? :)

(or do you really even care?)



L3dje 03-06-2006 06:08 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:


> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> .be.added...
>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible and
>> try not to judge other people for what they do.

> ============================
> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on usenet...


Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, most vegans try
to live as envirnomental friendly as possible but its not like you have to
life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect people who life
like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.


>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and
>> animals
>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most people
>> only think about their self.

> ===================
> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your
> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of
> animals by the billions...


I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before billions
of animals are dying and suffering for it.

> I try to thread everybody the same but
>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just only
>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change the
>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair trade
>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be
>> more
>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.

> ===========================
> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. Especially when
> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported from
> around the world.


But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

> The only real impact you
> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. Read any
> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from around
> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of
> petro-chemicals.


There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food which is
from the country they life in.

> Crop farming is the definition
> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that live
> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No crops can
> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to
> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more ecologically sound,
> and more humane to animals than that stuff.


Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while you
are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes where
no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from animals who
life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat things like
grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. I heard for one kilo
of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. And do you want to say
you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables are bad for
the environment?


> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

> ========================
> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more
> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was good? I'd
> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an action.
>
>
>
>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as possible
>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english
>> word)
>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or
>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, just
>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough
>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to quit
>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about
>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>> communications?
>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or
>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as much
>>> as you care, huh?
>>>


rick 04-06-2006 02:54 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>
>
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> .be.added...
>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>> possible and
>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.

>> ============================
>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>> usenet...

>
> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,

=============================
That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing
them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and
eating them?


most vegans try
> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible

=====================
They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at
finding what they really do.


but its not like you have to
> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
> people who life
> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>
>
>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
>>> and
>>> animals
>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>> most people
>>> only think about their self.

>> ===================
>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>> your
>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering
>> of
>> animals by the billions...

>
> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before
> billions
> of animals are dying and suffering for it.

======================
Really? Not necessarily.
Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total
of over 13000.

http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm

This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet
vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds,
'eat no meat' and think that that automatically produces great
results.


>
>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
>>> just only
>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>> change the
>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>> fair trade
>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>> would be
>>> more
>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.

>> ===========================
>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>> Especially when
>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported
>> from
>> around the world.

>
> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

=========================
Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals
really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic
foods that are totally unnecessary for you survival. What it
really comes down to is that your selfishness, convenience and
entertainment come before any thought of saving animals.


>
>> The only real impact you
>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>> that. Read any
>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from
>> around
>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of
>> petro-chemicals.

>
> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food
> which is
> from the country they life in.

====================
Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
recipie sites...



>
>> Crop farming is the definition
>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats
>> that live
>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
>> crops can
>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap
>> made to
>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>> ecologically sound,
>> and more humane to animals than that stuff.

>
> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while
> you
> are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
> where
> no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
> animals who
> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
> things like
> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.

================================
ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at
least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at
a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources for meats
raised without confimement.


I heard for one kilo
> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.

==============================
Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed
beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good,
healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct
from a pasture or range, let us know.


And do you want to say
> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables
> are bad for
> the environment?

=======================
No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of
calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially
when you factor in all the imported foods you eat.
being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything to
reduce your bloody footprints...




It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm



>
>
>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

>> ========================
>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>> more
>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
>> good? I'd
>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an
>> action.
>>
>>
>>
>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>> as possible
>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>> english
>>> word)
>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>> dis-membered or
>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>>>> all, just
>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>> care enough
>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>> enough to quit
>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>>>> about
>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>> communications?
>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>> cooking or
>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>> just as much
>>>> as you care, huh?
>>>>




rick 04-06-2006 03:00 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"nyx" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> .be.added...
>>
>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>possible and
>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.

>>
>> ============================
>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>> usenet...
>>
>>
>>
>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
>>>and animals
>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>most
>>>people only think about their self.

>>
>> ===================
>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>> your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>> suffering of animals by the billions...
>>
>>
>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>
>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
>>>just only
>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>change the
>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>fair trade
>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>would be more
>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.

>>
>> ===========================
>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>> Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff.
>> It's all imported from around the world. The only real impact
>> you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>> that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods
>> and spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped
>> using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the
>> definition of destruction of a natural environment. You can
>> eat meats that live entirely in natural environments with no
>> damage at all. No crops can say the same, Especially all the
>> tofu and tvp processed crap made to look/taste like meat.
>> There are real meats far more ecologically sound, and more
>> humane to animals than that stuff.
>>
>>
>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>
>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.

>>
>> ========================
>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>> more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention'
>> was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason
>> for taking an action.
>>
>>
>>
>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as
>>>possible
>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>english word)
>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>>>>all, just
>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care
>>>>enough
>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough
>>>>to quit
>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>>>>about
>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>communications?
>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>cooking or
>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>just as much
>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>

>>
>>
>>

> Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of
> "vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a
> "vegan" to satisfy this definition?

====================
Do you know the definition?

"...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes
a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the
products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish,
fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and
encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived
wholly or in part from animals..."
Donald Watson, 1944

he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is
doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation of,
and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'.


>
> You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I
> wonder...
>
> ..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did
> it, then would you be happy? :)

=========================
There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just
aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for
entertainment basically. You have no survival need to be here,
you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal lives.



>
> (or do you really even care?)

=======================
No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just responding
to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet...


>
>




nyx 04-06-2006 04:15 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 
rick wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>rick wrote:
>>
>>>"L3dje"
>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mus t.sandertje.be.added>
>>>wrote in message
tje.be.added...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>possible and
>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>
>>>============================
>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>usenet...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
>>>>and animals
>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>most
>>>>people only think about their self.
>>>
>>>===================
>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>suffering of animals by the billions...
>>>
>>>
>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>
>>>
>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
>>>>just only
>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>change the
>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>fair trade
>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>would be more
>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>
>>>===========================
>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff.
>>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real impact
>>>you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods
>>>and spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped
>>>using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the
>>>definition of destruction of a natural environment. You can
>>>eat meats that live entirely in natural environments with no
>>>damage at all. No crops can say the same, Especially all the
>>>tofu and tvp processed crap made to look/taste like meat.
>>>There are real meats far more ecologically sound, and more
>>>humane to animals than that stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>
>>>
>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>
>>>========================
>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention'
>>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason
>>>for taking an action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as
>>>>possible
>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>english word)
>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>>>>>all, just
>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care
>>>>>enough
>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough
>>>>>to quit
>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>>>>>about
>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>communications?
>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>cooking or
>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>just as much
>>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of
>>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a
>>"vegan" to satisfy this definition?

>
> ====================
> Do you know the definition?


Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan.
>
> "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
> exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes
> a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the
> products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish,
> fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and
> encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived
> wholly or in part from animals..."
> Donald Watson, 1944
>
> he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is
> doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation of,
> and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'.
>
>
>
>>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I
>>wonder...
>>
>>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did
>>it, then would you be happy? :)

>
> =========================
> There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just
> aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for
> entertainment basically.


Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for being
here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment. But since I am not a
vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use the usenet
as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know...
You have no survival need to be here,
> you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal lives.


Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that reason.
>
>
>
>
>>(or do you really even care?)

>
> =======================
> No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just responding
> to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet...


Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't call me a
hypocryt about THAT subject.

So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe describe
for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan and NOT be
a hypocrit. I am curious....

....is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern conveniences"
would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan survive that way? I am
going to admit right now, I don't know all those answers, so maybe you
can enlighten me...

Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan. I don't
eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related to health. My
choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat meat. I don't condone a
vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a meat eating one either. I also
don't pass judgement's against either choice, whether it be vegan,
vegetarian, or meat eater.

I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow managed to
get sidetracked....
>
>
>
>>

>
>


nyx 04-06-2006 04:19 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 
rick wrote:
> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> .be.added...
>
>>On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>"L3dje"
>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mus t.sandertje.be.added>
>>>wrote in message
tje.be.added...
>>>
>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>possible and
>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>
>>>============================
>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>usenet...

>>
>>Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,

>
> =============================
> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing
> them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and
> eating them?
>
>
> most vegans try
>
>>to live as envirnomental friendly as possible

>
> =====================
> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at
> finding what they really do.
>
>
> but its not like you have to
>
>>life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
>>people who life
>>like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world
>>>>and
>>>>animals
>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>most people
>>>>only think about their self.
>>>
>>>===================
>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>your
>>>selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering
>>>of
>>>animals by the billions...

>>
>>I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before
>>billions
>>of animals are dying and suffering for it.

>
> ======================
> Really? Not necessarily.
> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total
> of over 13000.
>
> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm


What if.....

.....a person has a solar powered or wind powered house and obtains ALL,
that means 100% of his/her electricity from these sources. Are there
any animals harmed then? Granted, I know this is not the norm, but I do
know of at least 5 people who live this way...
>
> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet
> vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds,
> 'eat no meat' and think that that automatically produces great
> results.
>
>
>
>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>
>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are
>>>>just only
>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>change the
>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>fair trade
>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>would be
>>>>more
>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>
>>>===========================
>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>Especially when
>>>you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported
>>>from
>>>around the world.

>>
>>But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

>
> =========================
> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals
> really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic
> foods that are totally unnecessary for you survival. What it
> really comes down to is that your selfishness, convenience and
> entertainment come before any thought of saving animals.
>
>
>
>>>The only real impact you
>>>could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>that. Read any
>>>site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from
>>>around
>>>the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of
>>>petro-chemicals.

>>
>>There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food
>>which is
>>from the country they life in.

>
> ====================
> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
> recipie sites...
>
>
>
>
>>>Crop farming is the definition
>>>of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats
>>>that live
>>>entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
>>>crops can
>>>say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap
>>>made to
>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>ecologically sound,
>>>and more humane to animals than that stuff.

>>
>>Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while
>>you
>>are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
>>where
>>no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
>>animals who
>>life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
>>things like
>>grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.

>
> ================================
> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at
> least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at
> a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources for meats
> raised without confimement.
>
>
> I heard for one kilo
>
>>of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.

>
> ==============================
> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed
> beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good,
> healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct
> from a pasture or range, let us know.
>
>
> And do you want to say
>
>>you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables
>>are bad for
>>the environment?

>
> =======================
> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
> veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of
> calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially
> when you factor in all the imported foods you eat.
> being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything to
> reduce your bloody footprints...
>
>
>
>
> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.
>
>
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
>
>
> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>
>
> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>
>
> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
> dealing with power and communications.
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>
>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>
>>>========================
>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>more
>>>habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
>>>good? I'd
>>>say that results would be a far better reason for taking an
>>>action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>as possible
>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>english
>>>>word)
>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at
>>>>>all, just
>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>care enough
>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>enough to quit
>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough
>>>>>about
>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>communications?
>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>cooking or
>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>just as much
>>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>>

>
>
>


nyx 04-06-2006 04:50 AM

I'm considering being a vegetarian...
 
Judy wrote:
> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains,
> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat,
> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are
> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian
> ettequite to eat these things?
>
> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat
> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"?
>

Hi Judy,
It would seem to me that you have not received many helpful answers to
your questions(based on the posts to this question). There have been
some and for those, thank-you!

It is OK to choose vegetarianism for health reasons. It is great that
you already love whole grains, fruits and vege's. Dairy products are
definitely one of the hardest items to get away from when you make the
choice to be a vegetarian.

The term vegetarian is a label. Don't let the label keep you from doing
what YOU want to do for yourself! You can still consume eggs and dairy
and consider yourself a vegetarian. I have found, that unless the label
really means something to you, it isn't really what matters. If you are
not fond of soy, then by all means, don't feel the need to consume it!

I feel at first, if it is you ultimate goal to eliminate milk products,
you can start by replacing cow's/goat's/other animal milk with either
rice milk (very watery, good on cereal and a good replacement for skim
milk) or almond milk. Almond milk is FANTASTIC in coffee! There are
also many other "milks" out there, like Hazelnut and Oat. They come in
plain, vanilla, chocolate and carob flavors. I think even non
vegetarians should try them cause they all taste great!

As for fish, maybe you could start by just cutting down your
consumption. And make sure you always purchase non-farm raised because
of the antibiotics and other "unpleasentries" surrounding them. Start
with once a week, then twice per month, etc.

And FYI, there is a name for those who consume no meat, poultry, pork,
but do consume fish, dairy, eggs, and that is Pescan.

As for when someone offers you meat, a simple "no thank-you" usually
works just fine. If they want to know why, just say you don't feel like
it today, or "no I'm good with what I have now". Then change the
subject. If you want to elaborate, it's OK, but don't feel like you
have to. It's your body, your health, and you have the right to put into
it what you want. :)

I hope this helps. I have many references for cookbooks etc. that if
you need, feel free to ask. I'm sure you can find most of what you need
on the net. Good luck! And, beware of all the nasty trolls here, they
just want to start a lot of trouble!

rick 04-06-2006 05:43 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"nyx" > wrote in message
. ..
> rick wrote:
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> .be.added...
>>
>>>On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"L3dje"
>>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mu st.sandertje.be.added>
>>>>wrote in message
rtje.be.added...
>>>>
>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>possible and
>>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>
>>>>============================
>>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>usenet...
>>>
>>>Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,

>>
>> =============================
>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing
>> them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and
>> eating them?
>>
>>
>> most vegans try
>>
>>>to live as envirnomental friendly as possible

>>
>> =====================
>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts
>> at finding what they really do.
>>
>>
>> but its not like you have to
>>
>>>life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
>>>people who life
>>>like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>>world and
>>>>>animals
>>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>>most people
>>>>>only think about their self.
>>>>
>>>>===================
>>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>>your
>>>>selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>>suffering of
>>>>animals by the billions...
>>>
>>>I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time
>>>before billions
>>>of animals are dying and suffering for it.

>>
>> ======================
>> Really? Not necessarily.
>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a
>> total of over 13000.
>>
>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm

>
> What if.....
>
> ....a person has a solar powered or wind powered house and
> obtains ALL, that means 100% of his/her electricity from these
> sources.

======================
Great, except being on usenet still drives the demand for power
for the routers and communications to get your entertainment
around the world.

Are there
> any animals harmed then? Granted, I know this is not the norm,
> but I do know of at least 5 people who live this way...
>>
>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet
>> vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple
>> minds, 'eat no meat' and think that that automatically
>> produces great results.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>
>>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>>are just only
>>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>>change the
>>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>>fair trade
>>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>>would be
>>>>>more
>>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>>
>>>>===========================
>>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>>Especially when
>>>>you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all
>>>>imported from
>>>>around the world.
>>>
>>>But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

>>
>> =========================
>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if
>> animals really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the
>> imported exotic foods that are totally unnecessary for you
>> survival. What it really comes down to is that your
>> selfishness, convenience and entertainment come before any
>> thought of saving animals.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>The only real impact you
>>>>could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>>that. Read any
>>>>site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices
>>>>from around
>>>>the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts
>>>>of
>>>>petro-chemicals.
>>>
>>>There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible
>>>food which is
>>>from the country they life in.

>>
>> ====================
>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
>> recipie sites...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Crop farming is the definition
>>>>of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats
>>>>that live
>>>>entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
>>>>crops can
>>>>say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap
>>>>made to
>>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>>ecologically sound,
>>>>and more humane to animals than that stuff.
>>>
>>>Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a
>>>while you
>>>are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
>>>where
>>>no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
>>>animals who
>>>life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
>>>things like
>>>grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.

>>
>> ================================
>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives,
>> at least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are
>> spent at a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources
>> for meats raised without confimement.
>>
>>
>> I heard for one kilo
>>
>>>of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.

>>
>> ==============================
>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed
>> beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly
>> good, healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating
>> grass direct from a pasture or range, let us know.
>>
>>
>> And do you want to say
>>
>>>you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables
>>>are bad for
>>>the environment?

>>
>> =======================
>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
>> veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of
>> calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially
>> when you factor in all the imported foods you eat.
>> being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything
>> to reduce your bloody footprints...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.
>>
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
>>
>>
>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
>> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>>
>>
>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
>> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
>> there
>> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>>
>>
>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
>> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
>> dealing with power and communications.
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>
>>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>>
>>>>========================
>>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>>more
>>>>habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
>>>>good? I'd
>>>>say that results would be a far better reason for taking an
>>>>action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>>as possible
>>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>>english
>>>>>word)
>>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>>>>>>at all, just
>>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>>care enough
>>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>>enough to quit
>>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>>enough about
>>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>>communications?
>>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>>cooking or
>>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>>just as much
>>>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>>>

>>
>>



rick 04-06-2006 05:53 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"nyx" > wrote in message
. ..
> rick wrote:
>> "nyx" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"L3dje"
>>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mu st.sandertje.be.added>
>>>>wrote in message
rtje.be.added...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>possible and
>>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>
>>>>============================
>>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>usenet...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>>world and animals
>>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>>most
>>>>>people only think about their self.
>>>>
>>>>===================
>>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>>suffering of animals by the billions...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>>are just only
>>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>>change the
>>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>>fair trade
>>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>>would be more
>>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>>
>>>>===========================
>>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff.
>>>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real
>>>>impact you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans
>>>>don't do that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of
>>>>exotic foods and spices from around the world. All of it has
>>>>to be shipped using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop
>>>>farming is the definition of destruction of a natural
>>>>environment. You can eat meats that live entirely in natural
>>>>environments with no damage at all. No crops can say the
>>>>same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to
>>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>>ecologically sound, and more humane to animals than that
>>>>stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>>
>>>>========================
>>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention'
>>>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason
>>>>for taking an action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>>as possible
>>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>>english word)
>>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>>>>>>at all, just
>>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>>care enough
>>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>>enough to quit
>>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>>enough about
>>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>>communications?
>>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>>cooking or
>>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>>just as much
>>>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of
>>>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a
>>>"vegan" to satisfy this definition?

>>
>> ====================
>> Do you know the definition?

>
> Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan.
>>
>> "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
>> exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and
>> includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of
>> living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion
>> of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its
>> derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all
>> commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..."
>> Donald Watson, 1944
>>
>> he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is
>> doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation
>> of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'.
>>
>>
>>
>>>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I
>>>wonder...
>>>
>>>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they
>>>did it, then would you be happy? :)

>>
>> =========================
>> There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just
>> aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for
>> entertainment basically.

>
> Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for
> being here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment.

============================
Ultimately, yes you are. there is NO survival need to be on
usenet.


But since I am not a
> vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use
> the usenet as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know...

==========================
Knowledge can be gained in more animal friendly ways. Again,
that search for knowledge is basically entertainment.


> You have no survival need to be here,
>> you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal
>> lives.

>
> Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that
> reason.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>(or do you really even care?)

>>
>> =======================
>> No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just
>> responding to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet...

>
> Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't
> call me a hypocryt about THAT subject.
>
> So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe
> describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be
> vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious....

===========================
LOL That's not for me to determine. I don't care how anybody
wants to live.


>
> ...is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern
> conveniences" would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan
> survive that way? I am going to admit right now, I don't know
> all those answers, so maybe you can enlighten me...

===========================
There are people that live mostly off-the-grid. But, they aren't
necessesarily vegan. It's far easier to raise some meat animals
or eat game as part of your diet than to grow all your own food.
As for usenet vegans, no, I don't think they could even come
close because they are mostly about convenience. Again, they
follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.'
They haven't given any thought about what they choices mean, they
just think it sounds good.



>
> Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan.
> I don't eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related
> to health. My choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat
> meat. I don't condone a vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a
> meat eating one either. I also don't pass judgement's against
> either choice, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater.
>
> I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow
> managed to get sidetracked....

====================
There are better places I'm sure to get recipies... :-)


>>
>>
>>
>>>

>>



L3dje 04-06-2006 01:19 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:


> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> .be.added...
>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "L3dje"
>>> andertje.be.added>
>>> wrote in message
>>> .be.added...
>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible
>>>> and
>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>> ============================
>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on usenet...

>>
>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,

> =============================
> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them and
> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?


Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals for me?
When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less animals.

> most vegans try
>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible

> =====================
> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at finding
> what they really do.


Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i know
envirnomental friendly.

> but its not like you have to
>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect people who
>> life
>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>
>>
>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and
>>>> animals
>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most
>>>> people
>>>> only think about their self.
>>> ===================
>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your
>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of
>>> animals by the billions...

>>
>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before
>> billions
>> of animals are dying and suffering for it.

> ======================
> Really? Not necessarily.
> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total of
> over 13000.
>
> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>
> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet vegans.
> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat' and
> think that that automatically produces great results.


Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In holland
0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know what a
vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in the UK and
USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and the people
who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But veganism as i know
is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants and
includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can allow it)
(or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong companies, using
public transport, looking from which country your food comes and so on.
Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about what they do
and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You have to
think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under veganism
veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that includes
you.
I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to vegetables who
grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and wait till the
right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75% of what i
buy is.

And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use power, i
mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about things which
uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave in green
power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean time, but
nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how you can
have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible but isn't
doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it.

>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just
>>>> only
>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change
>>>> the
>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair
>>>> trade
>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be
>>>> more
>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>> ===========================
>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. Especially
>>> when
>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported from
>>> around the world.

>>
>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

> =========================
> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals really
> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic foods that are
> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes down to is
> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come before any
> thought of saving animals.


Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and envirnoment friendly.
They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go along longer.

>>> The only real impact you
>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. Read
>>> any
>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from around
>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of
>>> petro-chemicals.

>>
>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food which
>> is
>> from the country they life in.

> ====================
> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their recipie
> sites...


I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't know the
names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it.

>>> Crop farming is the definition
>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that live
>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No crops can
>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to
>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more ecologically
>>> sound,
>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff.

>>
>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while you are
>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes where no
>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from animals who
>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat things like
>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.

> ================================
> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at least
> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a feedlot.
> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised without
> confimement.
>
>
> I heard for one kilo
>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.

> ==============================
> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed beef
> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, healthy,
> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from a pasture
> or range, let us know.


Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives stables and get
feed.
There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued for a couple
of times for things they said (and won the court), i think their
information is trustable. You can try to read there site with the links
here under, i don't know how readable the translation is.

I assume this works
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html
Or else you can paste this link
http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html
In http://babelfish.altavista.com/

> And do you want to say
>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables are bad
>> for
>> the environment?

> =======================
> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of veggies with
> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories come at a
> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in all the
> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically mean you've
> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints...
>
>
>
>
> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.
>
>
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html


I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most aren't about
organicfood.

> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, here's a
> couple to cover some problems with cotton.
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp.

> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, here's
> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can be 100s to
> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>
>
> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and maintaining a web
> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and communications.
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>> ========================
>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more
>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was good? I'd
>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as
>>>> possible
>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english
>>>> word)
>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or
>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all,
>>>>> just
>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough
>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to
>>>>> quit
>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about
>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>> communications?
>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or
>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as
>>>>> much
>>>>> as you care, huh?
>>>>>


rick 04-06-2006 02:44 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
. be.added...
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>
>
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> .be.added...
>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "L3dje"
>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>> .be.added...
>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>> possible
>>>>> and
>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>> ============================
>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>> usenet...
>>>
>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,

>> =============================
>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing
>> them and
>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
>> them?

>
> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the
> animals for me?

==================================
Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
consequences, are you?
Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From
plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the
processing stages. Animals are systematically and deliberately
killed for your foods.



> When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less
> animals.

==============================
So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed.
They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows.


>
>> most vegans try
>>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible

>> =====================
>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts
>> at finding
>> what they really do.

>
> Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i
> know
> envirnomental friendly.

============================
Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you
connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more and
faster connections and communications.

Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for
clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop
production.



>
>> but its not like you have to
>>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
>>> people who
>>> life
>>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>> world and
>>>>> animals
>>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>> most
>>>>> people
>>>>> only think about their self.
>>>> ===================
>>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>> your
>>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>> suffering of
>>>> animals by the billions...
>>>
>>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time
>>> before
>>> billions
>>> of animals are dying and suffering for it.

>> ======================
>> Really? Not necessarily.
>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a
>> total of
>> over 13000.
>>
>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>
>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet
>> vegans.
>> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no
>> meat' and
>> think that that automatically produces great results.

>
> Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In
> holland
> 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know
> what a
> vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in
> the UK and
> USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and
> the people
> who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But
> veganism as i know
> is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants
> and
> includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can
> allow it)
> (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong
> companies, using
> public transport, looking from which country your food comes
> and so on.
> Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about
> what they do
> and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You
> have to
> think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under
> veganism
> veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that
> includes
> you.

=======================
If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds of
it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real impact
is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as you
don't eat animals, none die for your food.


> I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to
> vegetables who
> grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and
> wait till the
> right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75%
> of what i
> buy is.

=====================
Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large
scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop
farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry.


>
> And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use
> power, i
> mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about
> things which
> uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave
> in green
> power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean
> time, but
> nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how
> you can
> have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible
> but isn't
> doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it.

=========================
But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by just
not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to
know because you still think that animnal don't die just because
you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that
would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop
production, from animals that are raised naturally and without
confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the
environment and habitats is far less than crop production.
Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat
destruction.


>
>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>> are just
>>>>> only
>>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>> change
>>>>> the
>>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>> fair
>>>>> trade
>>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>> would be
>>>>> more
>>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>> ===========================
>>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>> Especially
>>>> when
>>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all
>>>> imported from
>>>> around the world.
>>>
>>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.

>> =========================
>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if
>> animals really
>> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic
>> foods that are
>> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes
>> down to is
>> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come
>> before any
>> thought of saving animals.

>
> Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and
> envirnoment friendly.
> They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go
> along longer.

===================================
No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled as
fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and many
are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means
nothing.


>
>>>> The only real impact you
>>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>> that. Read
>>>> any
>>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices
>>>> from around
>>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts
>>>> of
>>>> petro-chemicals.
>>>
>>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible
>>> food which
>>> is
>>> from the country they life in.

>> ====================
>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
>> recipie
>> sites...

>
> I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't
> know the
> names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it.
>
>>>> Crop farming is the definition
>>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats
>>>> that live
>>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
>>>> crops can
>>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed
>>>> crap made to
>>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>> ecologically
>>>> sound,
>>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff.
>>>
>>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a
>>> while you are
>>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
>>> where no
>>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
>>> animals who
>>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
>>> things like
>>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.

>> ================================
>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives,
>> at least
>> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a
>> feedlot.
>> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised
>> without
>> confimement.
>>
>>
>> I heard for one kilo
>>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.

>> ==============================
>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed
>> beef
>> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good,
>> healthy,
>> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from
>> a pasture
>> or range, let us know.

>
> Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives
> stables and get
> feed.

=============================
Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe.



> There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued
> for a couple
> of times for things they said (and won the court), i think
> their
> information is trustable. You can try to read there site with
> the links
> here under, i don't know how readable the translation is.
>
> I assume this works
> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html
> Or else you can paste this link
> http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html
> In http://babelfish.altavista.com/
>
>> And do you want to say
>>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables
>>> are bad
>>> for
>>> the environment?

>> =======================
>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
>> veggies with
>> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories
>> come at a
>> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in
>> all the
>> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically
>> mean you've
>> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.
>>
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html

>
> I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most
> aren't about
> organicfood.

==============================
Organic food production uses the same techniques. The difference
is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more
deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be
applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice.
each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death
and suffering.
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf

Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural
growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and
cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small
animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested,
removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now left
without food and cover to die of starvation and predation. The
surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers as
they will already be at their natural carrying capacity.


>
>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
>> here's a
>> couple to cover some problems with cotton.
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/

>
> I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp.
> ========================

And it is still grown the same way.


>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
>> here's
>> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can
>> be 100s to
>> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>>
>>
>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
>> maintaining a web
>> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and
>> communications.
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>> ========================
>>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>> more
>>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
>>>> good? I'd
>>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an
>>>> action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>> as
>>>>> possible
>>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>> english
>>>>> word)
>>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>> dis-membered or
>>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>>>>>> at all,
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>> care enough
>>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>> quit
>>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>> enough about
>>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>> communications?
>>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>> cooking or
>>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>> just as
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> as you care, huh?
>>>>>>




rick 04-06-2006 02:48 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> nyx > wrote:
>
>> So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe
>> describe
>> for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan
>> and NOT be
>> a hypocrit. I am curious....

>
> Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to.

===============================
LOL I'm not giving MY defintion, fool. I'm giving the
definition from the original guy who made up the word and
religion. Anything else is a watered down version designed to
make YOU feel better about doing nothing of substance.
"...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes
a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the
products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish,
fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and
encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived
wholly or in part from animals..."
Donald Watson, 1944


Language is
> built on consensus, and we already have well-accepted
> definitions of
> vegan to go by. [
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ]
> Rick's conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the
> generally accepted meanings.

==========================
ROTFLMAO Only out of step with the self-loathing set that
doesn't want to really do anything of consequence but only to
feel good about themselves without taking any real action.



>
> --
> fneep




rick 04-06-2006 02:51 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> t>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just
>> aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for
>> entertainment basically. You have no survival need to be
>> here,
>> you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal
>> lives.

>
> This ought to be interesting. How is usenet derived from
> animals?
> ============================

Willfully and terminally ignorant, eh fool? Nice try at making
strawmen....


here's an example of what just 3 power generators can kill every
year. Then consider that there are over 13000 more in the US
alone...
http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm



> --
> fneep




L3dje 04-06-2006 07:04 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:

>
> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> . be.added...
>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "L3dje"
>>> andertje.be.added>
>>> wrote in message
>>> .be.added...
>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>> possible
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>> ============================
>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>> usenet...
>>>>
>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>> =============================
>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing
>>> them and
>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
>>> them?

>>
>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the
>> animals for me?

> ==================================
> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
> consequences, are you?
> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From
> plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the
> processing stages. Animals are systematically and deliberately
> killed for your foods.


I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the definiton
of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because its almost
impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave definitions can
change). Again in holland animals are kept inside stables, except a big
part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows go outside sometimes and
of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by farmers they say
animals don't mind because they don't know better and they are forced
because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for a kilo of meat
there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan is better for
the envirnoment.

Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan
propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php

And the site of a chicken farmer.
http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html

Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.

>
>> When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less
>> animals.

> ==============================
> So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed.
> They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows.
>
>
>>
>>> most vegans try
>>>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible
>>> =====================
>>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts
>>> at finding
>>> what they really do.

>>
>> Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i
>> know
>> envirnomental friendly.

> ============================
> Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you
> connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more and
> faster connections and communications.
>
> Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for
> clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop
> production.
>


But using clean power is better as not using it.

And i understood that hemp is better as cotton, and eco cotton better as
non-eco cotton.

>
>>
>>> but its not like you have to
>>>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
>>>> people who
>>>> life
>>>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>>> world and
>>>>>> animals
>>>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> only think about their self.
>>>>> ===================
>>>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>>> your
>>>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>>> suffering of
>>>>> animals by the billions...
>>>>
>>>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time
>>>> before
>>>> billions
>>>> of animals are dying and suffering for it.
>>> ======================
>>> Really? Not necessarily.
>>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a
>>> total of
>>> over 13000.
>>>
>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>>
>>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet
>>> vegans.
>>> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no
>>> meat' and
>>> think that that automatically produces great results.

>>
>> Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In
>> holland
>> 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know
>> what a
>> vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in
>> the UK and
>> USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and
>> the people
>> who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But
>> veganism as i know
>> is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants
>> and
>> includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can
>> allow it)
>> (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong
>> companies, using
>> public transport, looking from which country your food comes
>> and so on.
>> Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about
>> what they do
>> and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You
>> have to
>> think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under
>> veganism
>> veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that
>> includes
>> you.

> =======================
> If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds of
> it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real impact
> is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as you
> don't eat animals, none die for your food.


As is said, i don't think i said there don't die animals because of me.

>> I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to
>> vegetables who
>> grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and
>> wait till the
>> right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75%
>> of what i
>> buy is.

> =====================
> Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large
> scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop
> farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry.


Its not perfect but it is better.

>>
>> And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use
>> power, i
>> mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about
>> things which
>> uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave
>> in green
>> power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean
>> time, but
>> nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how
>> you can
>> have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible
>> but isn't
>> doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it.

> =========================
> But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by just
> not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to
> know because you still think that animnal don't die just because
> you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that
> would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop
> production, from animals that are raised naturally and without
> confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the
> environment and habitats is far less than crop production.
> Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat
> destruction.


Like i said above dutch cattle lives in stables.

>>
>>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>>> are just
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>>> fair
>>>>>> trade
>>>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>>> would be
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>>> ===========================
>>>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>>> Especially
>>>>> when
>>>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all
>>>>> imported from
>>>>> around the world.
>>>>
>>>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.
>>> =========================
>>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if
>>> animals really
>>> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic
>>> foods that are
>>> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes
>>> down to is
>>> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come
>>> before any
>>> thought of saving animals.

>>
>> Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and
>> envirnoment friendly.
>> They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go
>> along longer.

> ===================================
> No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled as
> fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and many
> are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means
> nothing.


It's not one organisation who cliams to be good but other organisations
confirm this, i trust they know what they are doing.

>>
>>>>> The only real impact you
>>>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>>> that. Read
>>>>> any
>>>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices
>>>>> from around
>>>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts
>>>>> of
>>>>> petro-chemicals.
>>>>
>>>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible
>>>> food which
>>>> is
>>>> from the country they life in.
>>> ====================
>>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
>>> recipie
>>> sites...

>>
>> I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't
>> know the
>> names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it.
>>
>>>>> Crop farming is the definition
>>>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats
>>>>> that live
>>>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No
>>>>> crops can
>>>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed
>>>>> crap made to
>>>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>>> ecologically
>>>>> sound,
>>>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a
>>>> while you are
>>>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
>>>> where no
>>>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
>>>> animals who
>>>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
>>>> things like
>>>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.
>>> ================================
>>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives,
>>> at least
>>> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a
>>> feedlot.
>>> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised
>>> without
>>> confimement.
>>>
>>>
>>> I heard for one kilo
>>>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.
>>> ==============================
>>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed
>>> beef
>>> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good,
>>> healthy,
>>> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from
>>> a pasture
>>> or range, let us know.

>>
>> Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives
>> stables and get
>> feed.

> =============================
> Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe.


To bad it's the truth.

>
>> There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued
>> for a couple
>> of times for things they said (and won the court), i think
>> their
>> information is trustable. You can try to read there site with
>> the links
>> here under, i don't know how readable the translation is.
>>
>> I assume this works
>> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html
>> Or else you can paste this link
>> http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html
>> In http://babelfish.altavista.com/
>>
>>> And do you want to say
>>>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables
>>>> are bad
>>>> for
>>>> the environment?
>>> =======================
>>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
>>> veggies with
>>> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories
>>> come at a
>>> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in
>>> all the
>>> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically
>>> mean you've
>>> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
>>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html

>>
>> I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most
>> aren't about
>> organicfood.

> ==============================
> Organic food production uses the same techniques. The difference
> is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more
> deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be
> applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice.
> each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death
> and suffering.
> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf


Most organisations are pro organic of course there are organisations who
don't. I think for everything i found i have reliable sources, and to be
honest i never heard of CGFI (probably because it's not dutch) and never
heard this argument against organic, only that it's not more healty as
non-organic. I wont say that because i don't know CFGI they are lying or
something but rather wait until this problem is more known so i hear from
other organisations about is.

> Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural
> growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and
> cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small
> animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested,
> removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now left
> without food and cover to die of starvation and predation. The
> surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers as
> they will already be at their natural carrying capacity.


But i suppose this don't count only for organic.

>>
>>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
>>> here's a
>>> couple to cover some problems with cotton.
>>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/

>>
>> I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp.
>> ========================

> And it is still grown the same way.
>
>
>>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
>>> here's
>>> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can
>>> be 100s to
>>> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
>>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
>>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
>>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
>>> maintaining a web
>>> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and
>>> communications.
>>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>>> ========================
>>>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>>> more
>>>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was
>>>>> good? I'd
>>>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an
>>>>> action.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> possible
>>>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>>> english
>>>>>> word)
>>>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>>> dis-membered or
>>>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>>>>>>> at all,
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>>> care enough
>>>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>> quit
>>>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>>> enough about
>>>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>>> communications?
>>>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>>> cooking or
>>>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> as you care, huh?
>>>>>>>



L3dje 04-06-2006 07:51 PM

Err oops
 
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
>
>
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> . be.added...
>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "L3dje"
>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>> .be.added...
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>>> usenet...
>>>>>
>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>>> =============================
>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them
>>>> and
>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?
>>>
>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals for
>>> me?

>> ==================================
>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its consequences,
>> are you?
>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From plowing,
>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing stages.
>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your foods.

>
> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the
> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because
> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave
> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept inside
> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows
> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by
> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know better and
> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for
> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan
> is better for the envirnoment.
>
> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan
> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php
>
> And the site of a chicken farmer.
> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html
>
> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.
>


Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the people
don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant that they
still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage. I
understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal products. I
tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently but i think i
confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i thought
no animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions.

I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing them and
leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?".



rick 04-06-2006 09:34 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> t>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> LOL I'm not giving MY defintion, fool. I'm giving the
>> definition from the original guy who made up the word and
>> religion. Anything else is a watered down version designed to
>> make YOU feel better about doing nothing of substance.
>> "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
>> exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and
>> includes
>> a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on
>> the
>> products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish,
>> fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and
>> encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived
>> wholly or in part from animals..."
>> Donald Watson, 1944

>
> That's one definition he accepted.

=======================
LOL NO, fool, that's the definition of the word he made up. He
made-up the word, he get's to define it.


>
> Here it is in a founding document from the website of the Vegan
> Society
> that Watson founded:
>
> (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/abo...morandum.php):
>
> "In this Memorandum the word "veganism" denotes a philosophy
> and way of
> living which seeks to exclude as far as is possible and
> practical all
> forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food,
> clothing or
> any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development
> and use of
> animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and
> the
> environment.
>
> "In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with
> all
> products derived wholly or partly from animals."
>
> So, if Watson seems to accept a a variety of aspects of
> veganism, why
> won't you?

=====================
It says just what i wrote above, now doesn't it? The term you
like to spew, 'derived from' is applied only to the dietary
portion of veganism. veganism is not a diet, it's a lifestyle.
Diet is no more, or less than any other part of your life.
Exploitation of animals is still causeing their death and
suffering, whether or not you eat or wear them.
Again, you just like your lazy-mans version because that way you
don't really have to do anything.


>
> --
> fneep




rick 04-06-2006 09:38 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> t>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> > ============================

>> Willfully and terminally ignorant, eh fool? Nice try at
>> making
>> strawmen....
>>
>>
>> here's an example of what just 3 power generators can kill
>> every
>> year. Then consider that there are over 13000 more in the US
>> alone...
>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm

>
> But again, usenet is not derived from animals.

==================================
But again, brain-dead fool, usenet exploits animals and kills
them for YOUR selfish entertainment.
Veganism does not support this exploitation.

And a vegan, by
> definition, is often one who "uses no products derived from
> animals, as
> fur or leather."

=============================
Now you've drop the real meaning that you even posted in your
last reply. Finally figure out what exploitation of animals
means, killer?


The British Vegan Society definition also includes the
> phrase "as far as is possible and practical." I don't think
> it's
> practical to give up electricity. Do you?

=======================
In modern times, no, some electricity is needed for survival.
What you don't need is to create demand for ever increasing
amounts for nothing more than your entertainment, hypocrite.


>
> When I ride my bike, I collide with tiny bugs and kill them.
> However,
> I'm not going to give up riding my bike. It's a better
> alternative many
> times to driving a car. However, I'm not going to go out of my
> way to
> kill animals in either vehicle.

========================
Yet you do, just by purchasing the fuel, idiot.


>
> There are more shades of veganism than you care to admit to,
> Rick. You
> are overly determined to adhere to the strictest ideal with no
> regard
> for utilitarianism.

========================
No, there is veganism, and then there are the lazy fools trying
to conveince themselves of something that isn't real.


>
> --
> fneep




rick 04-06-2006 09:45 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> t>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by
>> just
>> not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to
>> know because you still think that animnal don't die just
>> because
>> you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that
>> would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop
>> production, from animals that are raised naturally and without
>> confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the
>> environment and habitats is far less than crop production.
>> Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat
>> destruction.

>
> There are many dubious assertions there, but I'll answer the
> first
> question.
>
> I believe that a person is doing something better than the
> status quo by
> not consuming meat.

==============================
Then prove it. It should be easy, eh?


Even cutting down on meat consumption is a better
> thing than maintaining a level like the U.S. per capita meat
> consumption
> currently. I say that for simple dietary reasons: it reduces or
> removes
> a significant amount of fat and cholesterol, known causes of
> poor health
> and heart disease.

========================
Lack of b12 is a major health problem too...



>
> From the animal exploitation angle, an single person's choice
> to not
> consume meat likely doesn't have much of an impact on saving
> animals.

===============================
I disagree. I can get 1000s of meals and 100s of 1000s of
calories from the death of one grass-fed cow, or game animals.
None of your mono-cultured crop production can even come close.


> But, if more people give it up, that will reduce demand, and
> the number
> of animals grown for slaughter will decrease.

==============================
And increase the number of animals that die for your crop
production. Is it only meat animals that have any 'value' to
you, or are you just that stupid?



Further, some people who
> refuse meat do so as a refusal of the system that produces it,
> and those
> people should be accorded the right to refuse participation
> whether you
> like it or not. Further, it seems more and more entrepreneurs
> are
> bringing goods and services to market to satisfy the wants and
> needs of
> vegans and vegetarians.

===========================
There are moire people bringing to market meats that don't fit
your extreme lys about production methods.


>
> Speaking just for myself, I grew up farming. When I was a
> child, I
> slaughtered chickens, hogs and cows and regularly hunted game
> on a small
> family farm. Now, I reject that just as thoroughly as I reject
> factory
> farming.

===========================
Then you really are as stupid as you sound, aren't you? Anyone
of those meats would be far better than all the veggies you buy
now at the supermart, killer. But then, animals that don't end
up on plates anyway don't seem to matter to you, right killer?


I would never want to force my views on you, Rick, but I do
> appreciate the chance for a free, civil discussion to persuade
> you.

==============================
You're right, you can't persude me to kill as many animals
unnecessarily as you do.


>
> --
> fneep




rick 04-06-2006 10:02 PM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
>
>>
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> . be.added...
>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "L3dje"
>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>> .be.added...
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> usenet...
>>>>>
>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>>> =============================
>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does
>>>> killing
>>>> them and
>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
>>>> them?
>>>
>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the
>>> animals for me?

>> ==================================
>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
>> consequences, are you?
>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From
>> plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the
>> processing stages. Animals are systematically and
>> deliberately
>> killed for your foods.

>
> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the
> definiton
> of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because its
> almost
> impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave
> definitions can
> change). Again in holland animals are kept inside stables,
> except a big
> part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows go outside
> sometimes and
> of course hobby-cattle.

===========================
Seems like you just made alot of exceptions to a claim that they
ALL are confined all their lives. No one says you have to eat
the confined ones. If you create a demand for the free-range,
pastured, grass-fed beef, they will produce it that way. By not
participating in the market of meat, you have NO say in
production methods. If you want it, somebody will produce it.


This is not denyd by farmers they say
> animals don't mind because they don't know better and they are
> forced
> because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for a kilo
> of meat
> there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan is
> better for
> the envirnoment.

=============================================
No, it isn't automatically so. The beef I eat is all pastured,
grass-fed. No crops are grown, no drugs, no confinement. For
that meat I replace 100s of 1000s of crop grown calories with the
death of ONE animal. No production of crops on any scale to
match will be death free.


>
> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan
> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php
>
> And the site of a chicken farmer.
> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html
>
> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.

======================================
But the fact remains that just avoiding meat does nothing to
change the conditions you dislike. YOU have to provide an
incentive for somebody to produce meat in a manner in which you
approve. You've already stated above that these types of meat do
exist, now you just have to expand THAT production. When that
production expands, the producers that you don't like will see a
method of making money in market that is growing.



>
>>
>>> When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less
>>> animals.

>> ==============================
>> So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed.
>> They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> most vegans try
>>>>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible
>>>> =====================
>>>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real
>>>> attepmts
>>>> at finding
>>>> what they really do.
>>>
>>> Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i
>>> know
>>> envirnomental friendly.

>> ============================
>> Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you
>> connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more
>> and
>> faster connections and communications.
>>
>> Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for
>> clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop
>> production.
>>

>
> But using clean power is better as not using it.

=======================
Not using it unnecessarily is even better.


>
> And i understood that hemp is better as cotton, and eco cotton
> better as
> non-eco cotton.

=======================
Again, both are the definition of habitat destruction. What was
there before any crop was grown? It sure wasn't row after row of
machine intensive, petro-chemical support crops.


>
>>
>>>
>>>> but its not like you have to
>>>>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect
>>>>> people who
>>>>> life
>>>>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>>>> world and
>>>>>>> animals
>>>>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the
>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> only think about their self.
>>>>>> ===================
>>>>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>>>> suffering of
>>>>>> animals by the billions...
>>>>>
>>>>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time
>>>>> before
>>>>> billions
>>>>> of animals are dying and suffering for it.
>>>> ======================
>>>> Really? Not necessarily.
>>>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a
>>>> total of
>>>> over 13000.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>>>
>>>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of
>>>> usenet
>>>> vegans.
>>>> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat
>>>> no
>>>> meat' and
>>>> think that that automatically produces great results.
>>>
>>> Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans.
>>> In
>>> holland
>>> 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even
>>> know
>>> what a
>>> vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in
>>> the UK and
>>> USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and
>>> the people
>>> who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But
>>> veganism as i know
>>> is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and
>>> plants
>>> and
>>> includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you
>>> can
>>> allow it)
>>> (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong
>>> companies, using
>>> public transport, looking from which country your food comes
>>> and so on.
>>> Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about
>>> what they do
>>> and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not.
>>> You
>>> have to
>>> think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under
>>> veganism
>>> veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so
>>> that
>>> includes
>>> you.

>> =======================
>> If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds
>> of
>> it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real
>> impact
>> is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as
>> you
>> don't eat animals, none die for your food.

>
> As is said, i don't think i said there don't die animals
> because of me.

===========================
You still talk like you do. Avoiding meat does NOT automatically
mean you have a smaller footprint on animal deaths.


>
>>> I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to
>>> vegetables who
>>> grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and
>>> wait till the
>>> right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about
>>> 75%
>>> of what i
>>> buy is.

>> =====================
>> Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large
>> scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop
>> farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry.

>
> Its not perfect but it is better.

==========================
Better than what? It produces crops that are NO different. It
can cause more animals to die. It is still fields of death for
animals. Why is that better than any grass-fed, pastured meat or
game?


>
>>>
>>> And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use
>>> power, i
>>> mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about
>>> things which
>>> uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave
>>> in green
>>> power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean
>>> time, but
>>> nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand
>>> how
>>> you can
>>> have problems with it, if some body chooses to life
>>> responsible
>>> but isn't
>>> doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it.

>> =========================
>> But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by
>> just
>> not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to
>> know because you still think that animnal don't die just
>> because
>> you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that
>> would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop
>> production, from animals that are raised naturally and without
>> confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the
>> environment and habitats is far less than crop production.
>> Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat
>> destruction.

>
> Like i said above dutch cattle lives in stables.

=========================
No, above you made several exceptions to that claim. Work with
the exceptions. Expand that market.


>
>>>
>>>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>>>> are just
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>> fair
>>>>>>> trade
>>>>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>>>> ===========================
>>>>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>>>> Especially
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all
>>>>>> imported from
>>>>>> around the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade.
>>>> =========================
>>>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if
>>>> animals really
>>>> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic
>>>> foods that are
>>>> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes
>>>> down to is
>>>> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come
>>>> before any
>>>> thought of saving animals.
>>>
>>> Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and
>>> envirnoment friendly.
>>> They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go
>>> along longer.

>> ===================================
>> No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled
>> as
>> fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and
>> many
>> are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means
>> nothing.

>
> It's not one organisation who cliams to be good but other
> organisations
> confirm this, i trust they know what they are doing.

============================
Of course you do, the rubes have to believe before they spend
their money on a scheme...
Do you not understand the concept that global shipping is not
environmentally friendly?


>
>>>
>>>>>> The only real impact you
>>>>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do
>>>>>> that. Read
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices
>>>>>> from around
>>>>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large
>>>>>> amounts
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> petro-chemicals.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible
>>>>> food which
>>>>> is
>>>>> from the country they life in.
>>>> ====================
>>>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their
>>>> recipie
>>>> sites...
>>>
>>> I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i
>>> don't
>>> know the
>>> names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it.
>>>
>>>>>> Crop farming is the definition
>>>>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat
>>>>>> meats
>>>>>> that live
>>>>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all.
>>>>>> No
>>>>>> crops can
>>>>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed
>>>>>> crap made to
>>>>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>>>> ecologically
>>>>>> sound,
>>>>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a
>>>>> while you are
>>>>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes
>>>>> where no
>>>>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from
>>>>> animals who
>>>>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat
>>>>> things like
>>>>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass.
>>>> ================================
>>>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their
>>>> lives,
>>>> at least
>>>> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at
>>>> a
>>>> feedlot.
>>>> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised
>>>> without
>>>> confimement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I heard for one kilo
>>>>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food.
>>>> ==============================
>>>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to
>>>> feed
>>>> beef
>>>> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good,
>>>> healthy,
>>>> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct
>>>> from
>>>> a pasture
>>>> or range, let us know.
>>>
>>> Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives
>>> stables and get
>>> feed.

>> =============================
>> Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe.

>
> To bad it's the truth.

==============================
No, it's not. You claimed above that there are exceptions.


>
>>
>>> There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued
>>> for a couple
>>> of times for things they said (and won the court), i think
>>> their
>>> information is trustable. You can try to read there site with
>>> the links
>>> here under, i don't know how readable the translation is.
>>>
>>> I assume this works
>>> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html
>>> Or else you can paste this link
>>> http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html
>>> In http://babelfish.altavista.com/
>>>
>>>> And do you want to say
>>>>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because
>>>>> vegetables
>>>>> are bad
>>>>> for
>>>>> the environment?
>>>> =======================
>>>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of
>>>> veggies with
>>>> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories
>>>> come at a
>>>> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor
>>>> in
>>>> all the
>>>> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically
>>>> mean you've
>>>> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>>>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>>>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>>>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>>>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>>>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230
>>>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>>>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>>>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>>>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
>>>
>>> I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most
>>> aren't about
>>> organicfood.

>> ==============================
>> Organic food production uses the same techniques. The
>> difference
>> is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more
>> deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be
>> applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice.
>> each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death
>> and suffering.
>> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf

>
> Most organisations are pro organic of course there are
> organisations who
> don't. I think for everything i found i have reliable sources,
> and to be
> honest i never heard of CGFI (probably because it's not dutch)
> and never
> heard this argument against organic, only that it's not more
> healty as
> non-organic. I wont say that because i don't know CFGI they are
> lying or
> something but rather wait until this problem is more known so i
> hear from
> other organisations about is.

==============================
Again, the rubes have to belive before you'll spend your money...



>
>> Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural
>> growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and
>> cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small
>> animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested,
>> removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now
>> left
>> without food and cover to die of starvation and predation.
>> The
>> surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers
>> as
>> they will already be at their natural carrying capacity.

>
> But i suppose this don't count only for organic.

==============================
No, it is for all crop production. You know, everything you eat.


>
>>>
>>>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
>>>> here's a
>>>> couple to cover some problems with cotton.
>>>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>>>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>>>
>>> I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp.
>>> ========================

>> And it is still grown the same way.
>>
>>
>>>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a
>>>> field,
>>>> here's
>>>> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can
>>>> be 100s to
>>>> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>>>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
>>>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>>>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>>>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>>>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf
>>>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643
>>>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
>>>> maintaining a web
>>>> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and
>>>> communications.
>>>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>>>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>>>> ========================
>>>>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and
>>>>>> destroy
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention'
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> good? I'd
>>>>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> english
>>>>>>> word)
>>>>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>>>> dis-membered or
>>>>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me?
>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>> at all,
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>>>> care enough
>>>>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>> quit
>>>>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>>>> enough about
>>>>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>>>> communications?
>>>>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>>>> cooking or
>>>>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> as you care, huh?
>>>>>>>>

>




rick 04-06-2006 10:08 PM

Err oops
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "L3dje"
>>> andertje.be.added>
>>> wrote in message
>>> . be.added...
>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> usenet...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>>>> =============================
>>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does
>>>>> killing them
>>>>> and
>>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
>>>>> them?
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the
>>>> animals for
>>>> me?
>>> ==================================
>>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
>>> consequences,
>>> are you?
>>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From
>>> plowing,
>>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing
>>> stages.
>>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your
>>> foods.

>>
>> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me,
>> the
>> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding
>> because
>> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i
>> beleave
>> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept
>> inside
>> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some
>> meat-cows
>> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not
>> denyd by
>> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know
>> better and
>> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So
>> agian for
>> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used.
>> Eating vegan
>> is better for the envirnoment.
>>
>> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no
>> vegan
>> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php
>>
>> And the site of a chicken farmer.
>> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html
>>
>> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.
>>

>
> Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the
> people
> don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant
> that they
> still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage.
> I
> understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal
> products.

==================================
Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals
die in the production of your crops, regular and organic.
large-scale crop productions are fields of killing.
You can get 1000s of meals and 100s of 1000s of calories from the
death of ONE animal to replace a large portion of the animal that
die in crop production.


I
> tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently
> but i think i
> confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i
> thought
> no animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions.

===============================
But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately.
They are not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers
know there are animals in the fields, vegans know that animals
are in the fields, eyt neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to
alleviate the death and suffering of those animals. That is NOT
accidental killing.


>
> I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing
> them and
> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
> them?".

===============================
Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of
the animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that
die for YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think
it's OK to kill animals for your food and just leave them to rot?


>
>




L3dje 04-06-2006 11:43 PM

Err oops
 
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:08:10 +0000, rick wrote:

Ok i think i better end this discussion. I beleave we are not getting
further and my english isn't good enough to go deeper in to your
arguments. I maybe better keep by having less serious conversations in
english. Most sources i have are dutch and from most non-dutch sources i
don't know their reputation and they take to mutch time to read, which i
need for schoolstuff. I already was doubting in the beginning if i head to
react to your arguments but couldn't resist and there by overjudged my
english. Sorry for the rude end of the conversation.


>
> "L3dje"
> andertje.be.added>
> wrote in message
> .be.added...
>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "L3dje"
>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>> . be.added...
>>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>>>>> usenet...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>>>>> =============================
>>>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals
>>>>> for
>>>>> me?
>>>> ==================================
>>>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
>>>> consequences,
>>>> are you?
>>>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From plowing,
>>>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing stages.
>>>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your foods.
>>>
>>> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the
>>> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because
>>> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave
>>> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept inside
>>> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows
>>> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by
>>> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know better and
>>> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian
>>> for
>>> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating
>>> vegan
>>> is better for the envirnoment.
>>>
>>> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan
>>> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php
>>>
>>> And the site of a chicken farmer.
>>> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html
>>>
>>> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.
>>>
>>>

>> Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the people
>> don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant that
>> they
>> still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage. I
>> understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal products.

> ==================================
> Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals die in
> the production of your crops, regular and organic. large-scale crop
> productions are fields of killing. You can get 1000s of meals and 100s
> of 1000s of calories from the death of ONE animal to replace a large
> portion of the animal that die in crop production.
>
>
> I
>> tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently but i
>> think i
>> confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i thought no
>> animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions.

> ===============================
> But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately. They are
> not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers know there are
> animals in the fields, vegans know that animals are in the fields, eyt
> neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to alleviate the death and
> suffering of those animals. That is NOT accidental killing.
>
>
>
>> I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing them and
>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?".

> ===============================
> Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of the
> animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that die for
> YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think it's OK to kill
> animals for your food and just leave them to rot?
>
>
>>
>>



nyx 05-06-2006 01:14 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 
rick wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>rick wrote:
>>
>>>"nyx" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"L3dje"
>>>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@m ust.sandertje.be.added>
>>>>>wrote in message
ertje.be.added...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as
>>>>>>possible and
>>>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>
>>>>>============================
>>>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on
>>>>>usenet...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the
>>>>>>world and animals
>>>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea
>>>>>>most
>>>>>>people only think about their self.
>>>>>
>>>>>===================
>>>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for
>>>>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and
>>>>>suffering of animals by the billions...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I try to thread everybody the same but
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me
>>>>>>are just only
>>>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to
>>>>>>change the
>>>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy
>>>>>>fair trade
>>>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it
>>>>>>would be more
>>>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly.
>>>>>
>>>>>===========================
>>>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true.
>>>>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff.
>>>>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real
>>>>>impact you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans
>>>>>don't do that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of
>>>>>exotic foods and spices from around the world. All of it has
>>>>>to be shipped using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop
>>>>>farming is the definition of destruction of a natural
>>>>>environment. You can eat meats that live entirely in natural
>>>>>environments with no damage at all. No crops can say the
>>>>>same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to
>>>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more
>>>>>ecologically sound, and more humane to animals than that
>>>>>stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Vegans do at least anything it is easy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something.
>>>>>
>>>>>========================
>>>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy
>>>>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention'
>>>>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason
>>>>>for taking an action.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most
>>>>>>as possible
>>>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an
>>>>>>english word)
>>>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded,
>>>>>>>dis-membered or
>>>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not
>>>>>>>at all, just
>>>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I
>>>>>>>care enough
>>>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not
>>>>>>>enough to quit
>>>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care
>>>>>>>enough about
>>>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and
>>>>>>>communications?
>>>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop
>>>>>>>cooking or
>>>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be
>>>>>>>just as much
>>>>>>>as you care, huh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of
>>>>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a
>>>>"vegan" to satisfy this definition?
>>>
>>>====================
>>>Do you know the definition?

>>
>>Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan.
>>
>>>"...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
>>>exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and
>>>includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of
>>>living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion
>>>of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its
>>>derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all
>>>commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..."
>>>Donald Watson, 1944
>>>
>>>he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is
>>>doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation
>>>of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I
>>>>wonder...
>>>>
>>>>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they
>>>>did it, then would you be happy? :)
>>>
>>>=========================
>>>There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just
>>>aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for
>>>entertainment basically.

>>
>>Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for
>>being here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment.

>
> ============================
> Ultimately, yes you are. there is NO survival need to be on
> usenet.
>
>
> But since I am not a
>
>>vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use
>>the usenet as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know...

>
> ==========================
> Knowledge can be gained in more animal friendly ways. Again,
> that search for knowledge is basically entertainment.
>
>
>
>>You have no survival need to be here,
>>
>>>you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal
>>>lives.

>>
>>Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that
>>reason.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>(or do you really even care?)
>>>
>>>=======================
>>>No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just
>>>responding to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet...

>>
>>Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't
>>call me a hypocryt about THAT subject.
>>
>>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe
>>describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be
>>vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious....

>
> ===========================
> LOL That's not for me to determine. I don't care how anybody
> wants to live.
>
>
>
>>...is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern
>>conveniences" would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan
>>survive that way? I am going to admit right now, I don't know
>>all those answers, so maybe you can enlighten me...

>
> ===========================
> There are people that live mostly off-the-grid. But, they aren't
> necessesarily vegan. It's far easier to raise some meat animals
> or eat game as part of your diet than to grow all your own food.
> As for usenet vegans, no, I don't think they could even come
> close because they are mostly about convenience. Again, they
> follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.'
> They haven't given any thought about what they choices mean, they
> just think it sounds good.
>
>
>
>
>>Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan.
>>I don't eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related
>>to health. My choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat
>>meat. I don't condone a vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a
>>meat eating one either. I also don't pass judgement's against
>>either choice, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater.
>>
>>I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow
>>managed to get sidetracked....

>
> ====================
> There are better places I'm sure to get recipies... :-)
>
>
>
>>>
>>>

>

Yes, you are soooo right on that one!

nyx 05-06-2006 01:15 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 
Kevan Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> nyx > wrote:
>
>
>>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe describe
>>for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan and NOT be
>>a hypocrit. I am curious....

>
>
> Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to. Language is
> built on consensus, and we already have well-accepted definitions of
> vegan to go by. [ http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ]
> Rick's conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the
> generally accepted meanings.
>


No worries about me accepting Rick's definition :) I already know it, I
just wanted to make him recite it.

rick 05-06-2006 02:16 AM

Yo, "Rick"
 

"nyx" > wrote in message
...
> Kevan Smith wrote:
>> In article >,
>> nyx > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe
>>>describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually
>>>be vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious....

>>
>>
>> Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to.
>> Language is built on consensus, and we already have
>> well-accepted definitions of vegan to go by. [
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ] Rick's
>> conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the
>> generally accepted meanings.
>>

>
> No worries about me accepting Rick's definition :)

=============================
Again, it is NOT my definition. It is the definition of veganism
by the person who made up the term and defined the religion.
That people are too lazy to live in that manner does not change
the original, real meaning of the word.

I already know it, I
> just wanted to make him recite it.




rick 05-06-2006 02:19 AM

Err oops
 

"L3dje"
andertje.be.added>
wrote in message
.be.added...
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:08:10 +0000, rick wrote:
>
> Ok i think i better end this discussion. I beleave we are not
> getting
> further and my english isn't good enough to go deeper in to
> your
> arguments.

=======================
It's been fine enough to get your idea across. Of course, you
seriously lack an understanding of how you impact animal and the
environment with the entirity of your life. What you eat is but
a small part.

I maybe better keep by having less serious conversations in
> english. Most sources i have are dutch and from most non-dutch
> sources i
> don't know their reputation and they take to mutch time to
> read, which i
> need for schoolstuff. I already was doubting in the beginning
> if i head to
> react to your arguments but couldn't resist and there by
> overjudged my
> english. Sorry for the rude end of the conversation.

=======================
Nothing new to quick endings, at least you explained yourself.


>
>
>>
>> "L3dje"
>> andertje.be.added>
>> wrote in message
>> .be.added...
>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>> . be.added...
>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "L3dje"
>>>>>>>>> andertje.be.added>
>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> .be.added...
>>>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as
>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do.
>>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans
>>>>>>>>> here on
>>>>>>>>> usenet...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products,
>>>>>>> =============================
>>>>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does
>>>>>>> killing them
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and
>>>>>>> eating them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the
>>>>>> animals
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me?
>>>>> ==================================
>>>>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its
>>>>> consequences,
>>>>> are you?
>>>>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From
>>>>> plowing,
>>>>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing
>>>>> stages.
>>>>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your
>>>>> foods.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me,
>>>> the
>>>> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not
>>>> excluding because
>>>> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i
>>>> beleave
>>>> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept
>>>> inside
>>>> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some
>>>> meat-cows
>>>> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not
>>>> denyd by
>>>> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know
>>>> better and
>>>> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat.
>>>> So agian
>>>> for
>>>> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used.
>>>> Eating
>>>> vegan
>>>> is better for the envirnoment.
>>>>
>>>> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no
>>>> vegan
>>>> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php
>>>>
>>>> And the site of a chicken farmer.
>>>> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html
>>>>
>>>> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of
>>> the people
>>> don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you
>>> meant that
>>> they
>>> still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the
>>> carbage. I
>>> understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal
>>> products.

>> ==================================
>> Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals
>> die in
>> the production of your crops, regular and organic. large-scale
>> crop
>> productions are fields of killing. You can get 1000s of meals
>> and 100s
>> of 1000s of calories from the death of ONE animal to replace a
>> large
>> portion of the animal that die in crop production.
>>
>>
>> I
>>> tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently
>>> but i
>>> think i
>>> confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i
>>> thought no
>>> animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions.

>> ===============================
>> But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately.
>> They are
>> not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers know
>> there are
>> animals in the fields, vegans know that animals are in the
>> fields, eyt
>> neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to alleviate the death
>> and
>> suffering of those animals. That is NOT accidental killing.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing
>>> them and
>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating
>>> them?".

>> ===============================
>> Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of
>> the
>> animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that
>> die for
>> YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think it's
>> OK to kill
>> animals for your food and just leave them to rot?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>

>




rick 05-06-2006 02:24 AM

Err oops
 

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> . net>,
> "rick" > wrote:
>
>> Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of
>> the animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals
>> that
>> die for YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you
>> think
>> it's OK to kill animals for your food and just leave them to
>> rot?

>
> First of all, you intend to kill all of the animals you
> consume. Then
> you support a horrific system of animal cruelty to bring that
> meat to
> your table.

=================================
No fool, I do not. Try looking beyond your brainwashing for a
change. I eat grass-fed, pasture raised beef. It gets no feed,
no, hormones, no drugs, and is never confined. For the death of
one animal I get 100s or 1000s of meals.


>
> Animals do die in grain and vegetable production. It is not the
> intent
> that they die, but they do. Another term for left to rot is
> compost into
> soil nutrient.

===========================
How is it that when animals are targeted for death with poisons
that it is not deliberate, killer? Are you really so stupid as
to belive that the poisons are just put out to scare animals
away? Besides, you know animals are dying in fields, the farmer
knows animals are dying in tyhe fields, yet neither of you do
anything to eliminate or even alleviate those deaths. They are
NOT accidental deaths. They are systematic, deliberate and paid
for and rewarded by YOU, hypocrite! Crop production IS habitat
destruction, grass raised animals and game are not.


>
> --
> fneep





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