When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

I have my doubts as to whether the slaughtering that goes on at
abbatoirs is really as humane as you seem to believe. I have seen
footage of what goes on in abbatoirs and it doesn't look very humane to
me. But you're right, comparing what the different animals experience
is a consideration.

"When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider "
<snip>

Why not just ask the cows what they want, and do what they tell you. If
you get an answer, by all means let us know.

GrtArtiste

dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

And after we learn how not to live off the suffering of other's we can
teach the lion to lay down with the lamb.

Even if the human animal were not brutally slaughtering other life
forms, other life forms would be doing so. Young animals will even
hunt for sport, just to stay in shape, or to get in shape to
successfully hunt.

"nature red in tooth and claw" its a jungle out there, and then there is
the heat death of the universe to consider.

(key Darth Vadar theme music)

Given the weapons that exist in the world to day it seems obvious some
very serious reconsideration must be made before we destroy what good
has been so hardly won.

But even at the best of times, the universe and our little mud ball
place in it is a very dangerous place. Susceptible to catastrophic
changes beyond orders of magnitude comprehensible to any unexposed to it.

So even if my diet were morally defensible i would still be uneasy about
the mere fact of existence, fortunately my Yoga teacher assures me its
all an illusion anyway.
---
JL

dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
....and last time I checked, gee, I'd MUCH rather clog my arteries with
"cow" products than with a vegetable product...

....just so YOU know, there are a LOT of vegetarians/vegans out here are
who choose this lifestyle because of health. It is the humane thing for
ME to treat care about MY health and that of my family. For ME,
humanity starts at home.

dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.

You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.

For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.

The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
feelings.

nyx wrote:
> dh@. wrote:
> > When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> > rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> > whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> > or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> > dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> > and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> > rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
> Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
> agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
> it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
> for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
> because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
> that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>
> You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
> a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
> I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
> I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
> well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
> dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
> you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>
> For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
> like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
> work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>
> The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> feelings.

I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons. He just thinks that
he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
animal rights that are often made and he wants to present these
criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
to disagree about.

"nyx" > wrote in message
...
> dh@. wrote:
> > When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> > rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> > whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> > or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> > dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> > and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> > rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.


> Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
> agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
> it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
> for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
> because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
> that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>
> You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
> a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
> I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
> I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
> well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
> dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
> you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>
> For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
> like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
> work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>
> The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> feelings.
>

Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
"no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my own
personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
then I can again see the humor in their posts.
Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell
PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol the
proof is in the good health, right?

good luck

Isabeau wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>
>
>
>>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
>>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
>>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
>>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>>
>>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
>>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>>
>>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>>
>>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>>feelings.
>>
>
>
> Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
> but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
> "no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my own
> personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
> switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
> convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
> choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
> I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
> taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
> irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
> then I can again see the humor in their posts.
> Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
> products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
> friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell
> PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
> well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol the
> proof is in the good health, right?
>
> good luck
>
>
Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
"proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
a beleiver.

Rupert wrote:
> nyx wrote:
>
>>dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>>
>>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
>>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
>>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
>>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>>
>>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
>>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>>
>>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>>
>>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>>feelings.
>
>
> I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
> wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons. He just thinks that
> he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
> animal rights that are often made and he wants to present these
> criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
> to disagree about.
>
Thanks for clearing that up. I apoligize. I guess because I am new here
I wasn't aware of his views regarding the health issue. Maybe at some
point he'll let it be known to me how he stands on that one. Not that
it much matters, but I probably don't belong here either because I am
not a vegan. I am a strict vegetarian. I was hoping for something
different from this forum and I must apologize as it appears I've come
to the wrong place to get what I'm seeking from a newsgroup. I'll refrain.

"nyx" > wrote in message
. ..
> Isabeau wrote:
> > "nyx" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>dh@. wrote:
> >>
> >>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> >>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> >>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> >>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> >>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> >>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> >>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> >>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
> >>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> >> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
> >>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> >>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> >>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
> >>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
> >>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
> >>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
> >>
> >>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> >>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
> >>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
> >>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> >>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> >>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
> >>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
> >>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
> >>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
> >>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
> >>
> >>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> >>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
> >>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
> >>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
> >>
> >>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> >>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> >>feelings.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
here
> > but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
the
> > "no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my
own
> > personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
> > switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
> > convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
individual
> > choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
> > I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
have
> > taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
little
> > irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
and
> > then I can again see the humor in their posts.
> > Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
> > products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
health. A
> > friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin
Campbell
> > PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
as
> > well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol
the
> > proof is in the good health, right?
> >
> > good luck
> >
> >
> Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
> people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
> has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
> my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
> better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
> it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
> about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
> "proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
> affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
> a beleiver.


I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.

"Isabeau" > wrote in message ...
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> . ..
<..>
> > Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> > about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
> > I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
> > people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> > What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> > elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
> > has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
> > my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
> > better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
> > it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
> > about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
> > "proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
> > affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
> > read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
> > It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
> > a beleiver.
>
>
> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
> learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
> am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
> hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.

Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
(you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!

Sorry I cannot be of much help, I am on a seefood diet....I see food i eat
it...<snort>, but glad to see a new face here, i usually am pretty much a
lurker, but if I need a recipe or something, usually Kathy's the one...she's
the best to get that kind of info from!...as far as you wanting other
choices try alt.food.vegan, someone there may be able to help... but the
trolls are kinda overkill.....but ya know as was mentioned before use your
block button, and enjoy the rest of us....*cheese*
Amanda
*Smile it'll get better!*
"Isabeau" > wrote in message
...
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Isabeau wrote:
>> > "nyx" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>dh@. wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>> >>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>> >>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>> >>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>> >>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>> >>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>> >>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>> >>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and
>> >>your
>> >>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>> >> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian
>> >> as
>> >>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>> >>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>> >>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>> >>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>> >>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on,
>> >>but
>> >>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>> >>
>> >>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>> >>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>> >>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>> >>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>> >>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>> >>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter
>> >>what
>> >>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>> >>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>> >>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>> >>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>> >>
>> >>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>> >>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>> >>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>> >>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>> >>
>> >>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>> >>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>> >>feelings.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
> here
>> > but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
> the
>> > "no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for
>> > my
> own
>> > personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
>> > switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
>> > convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
> individual
>> > choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
>> > I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
> have
>> > taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
> little
>> > irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
> and
>> > then I can again see the humor in their posts.
>> > Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
>> > products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
> health. A
>> > friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin
> Campbell
>> > PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
> as
>> > well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products"
>> > lol
> the
>> > proof is in the good health, right?
>> >
>> > good luck
>> >
>> >
>> Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>> about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>> people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>> What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>> elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
>> has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
>> my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
>> better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
>> it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
>> about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
>> "proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
>> affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
>> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>> a beleiver.
>
>
> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
> same.
> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
> and
> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
> learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what
> I
> am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
> will
> hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
>
>

Isabeau wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message

>>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
[...]

>
>
>
> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
[...]



Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
you can draw fire from an even wider audience?

Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
focused on your interests.

Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
crossposting? You become the trolls.

Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...




AL

"AL" > wrote in message ...
> Isabeau wrote:
> > "nyx" > wrote in message
>
> >>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> >>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
> >> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
> >>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> >>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> >>elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
> [...]
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
> > Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> > information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> > think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
> [...]
>
>
>
> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
> you can draw fire from an even wider audience?

The crossposting flame troll is dh@.

> Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
> focused on your interests.

Maybe they did, .. I'm guessing alt.food.vegan.

> Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
> responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
> else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
> crossposting? You become the trolls.

You should do a bit of research yourself, and not falsely accuse others.

> Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...

Very polite. I for one think an apology is in order.

>
>
>
> AL
>

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Isabeau" > wrote in message
...
> > "nyx" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> <..>
> > > Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> > > about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
that.
> > > I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
minded
> > > people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> > > What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> > > elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so
far
> > > has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some
of
> > > my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
> > > better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved
in
> > > it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
> > > about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
> > > "proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
> > > affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
> > > read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote
them.
> > > It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
am
> > > a beleiver.
> >
> >
> > I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
same.
> > Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> > information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
don't
> > think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
and
> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
> > learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be
what I
> > am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
will
> > hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
>
> Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
> (you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
> Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
> away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!
>
>


Good advice Pearl, I'll give it a try. tyvm

lol, tyvm Amanda I have a seefood diet too I seldom eat meals anymore I just
graze through the day, it works much better for me. We as human animals
think we are so smart but we are the only ones who limit our consumption of
nourishing foods to meals. In the process when we do get to the meal we
usually are starving and ready to break the arm of the first person that
gets in our way of the food. lol That's how I felt all the time so I decided
after watching nature a bit, to borrow some of that natural animal
intelligence and try eating whenever I was hungry. Worked like a charm for
me and now, lol my husbands arm is healing up quite nicely.

The block button it is then

--
Isabeau

~*~ Credendo Vides ~*~
'by believing, one sees'
"Amanda" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry I cannot be of much help, I am on a seefood diet....I see food i eat
> it...<snort>, but glad to see a new face here, i usually am pretty much a
> lurker, but if I need a recipe or something, usually Kathy's the
one...she's
> the best to get that kind of info from!...as far as you wanting other
> choices try alt.food.vegan, someone there may be able to help... but the
> trolls are kinda overkill.....but ya know as was mentioned before use your
> block button, and enjoy the rest of us....*cheese*
> Amanda
> *Smile it'll get better!*
> "Isabeau" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "nyx" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >> Isabeau wrote:
> >> > "nyx" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> >>dh@. wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> >> >>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> >> >>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> >> >>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> >> >>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> >> >>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> >> >>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> >> >>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and
> >> >>your
> >> >>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of
life.
> >> >> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian
> >> >> as
> >> >>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> >> >>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> >> >>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY
important
> >> >>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the
lifestyle
> >> >>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on,
> >> >>but
> >> >>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
> >> >>
> >> >>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> >> >>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that
eating
> >> >>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry,
but
> >> >>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> >> >>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> >> >>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter
> >> >>what
> >> >>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health
and
> >> >>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR
life
> >> >>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But
don't
> >> >>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
> >> >>
> >> >>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> >> >>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of
people
> >> >>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that
didn't
> >> >>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
> >> >>
> >> >>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> >> >>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> >> >>feelings.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I
expected
> > here
> >> > but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
> > the
> >> > "no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for
> >> > my
> > own
> >> > personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
> >> > switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
> >> > convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
> > individual
> >> > choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
> >> > I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
> > have
> >> > taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
> > little
> >> > irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our
chains
> > and
> >> > then I can again see the humor in their posts.
> >> > Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that
animal
> >> > products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
> > health. A
> >> > friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin
> > Campbell
> >> > PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had
read
> > as
> >> > well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products"
> >> > lol
> > the
> >> > proof is in the good health, right?
> >> >
> >> > good luck
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> >> about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
that.
> >> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
minded
> >> people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> >> What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> >> elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
> >> has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some
of
> >> my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
> >> better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved
in
> >> it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
> >> about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
> >> "proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
> >> affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
> >> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
> >> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
am
> >> a beleiver.
> >
> >
> > I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
> > same.
> > Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> > information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
don't
> > think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
> > and
> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
> > learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be
what
> > I
> > am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
> > will
> > hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
> >
> >
>
>

"Isabeau" > wrote in message . ..
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
<..>
> > Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
> > (you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
> > Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
> > away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!
> >
> >
>
>
> Good advice Pearl, I'll give it a try. tyvm

Wicked. .

"AL" > wrote in message ...
> Isabeau wrote:
> > "nyx" > wrote in message
>
> >>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
> >>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
> >> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
> >>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> >>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> >>elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
> [...]
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
> > Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> > information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> > think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
> [...]
>
>
>
> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
> you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
>
> Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
> focused on your interests.
>
> Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
> responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
> else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
> crossposting? You become the trolls.
>
> Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...
>
>
>
>
> AL
>

I'm not sure I understand what your talking about AL. I have only subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is "alt.food.vegan" for the purpose of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted to other newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the toolbar I see,

Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food. vegan,alt.food,alt.cooking-chat

I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you are the only person so far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the first name in my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there I'm sure

Ahh, it's ok pearl...I like my "wickedness"...Lol,It makes me stronger
through life...LOL
Amanda
*Smile it'll get better!*
"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "AL" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Isabeau wrote:
>> > "nyx" > wrote in message
>>
>> >>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>> >>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
>> >>that.
>> >> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
>> >> minded
>> >>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>> >>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>> >>elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
>> [...]
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
>> > same.
>> > Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and
>> > sharing
>> > information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
>> > don't
>> > think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to
>> > negative and
>> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>
>> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
>> you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
>
> The crossposting flame troll is dh@.
>
>> Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
>> focused on your interests.
>
> Maybe they did, .. I'm guessing alt.food.vegan.
>
>> Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
>> responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
>> else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
>> crossposting? You become the trolls.
>
> You should do a bit of research yourself, and not falsely accuse others.
>
>> Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...
>
> Very polite. I for one think an apology is in order.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> AL
>>
>
>

Isabeau wrote:

> "AL" > wrote in message ...
>
>>Isabeau wrote:
>>
>>>"nyx" > wrote in message
>>
>>>>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>>>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>>>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>>>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>>>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>>>elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
>>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
>>>think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
>>>confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>
>>
>>Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
>>you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
>>
>>Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
>>focused on your interests.
>>
>>Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
>>responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
>>else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
>>crossposting? You become the trolls.
>>
>>Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>AL
>>
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand what your talking about AL. I have only subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is "alt.food.vegan" for the purpose of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted to other newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the toolbar I see,
>
> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food. vegan,alt.food,alt.cooking-chat
>
> I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you are the only person so far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the first name in my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there I'm sure
>



Then would someone, who is not in Isabeau's "killfile", please explain
to the dolt that they can be subscribed to only one newsgroup but
crosspost to many by responding carelessly to someone who *IS*
crossposting. To prevent crossposting your response simply delete out
all the groups in the recipient list to which you do NOT belong.

Take a look at the list of recipients in this message - it only contains
alt.food.vegan


AL

Isabeau wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>Isabeau wrote:
>>
>>>"nyx" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>dh@. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>>>>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>>>>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>>>>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>>>>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>>>>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>>>>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>>>>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
>>>>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>>>> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
>>>>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>>>>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>>>>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>>>>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>>>>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
>>>>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>>>>
>>>>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>>>>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>>>>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>>>>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>>>>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>>>>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
>>>>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>>>>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>>>>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>>>>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>>>>
>>>>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>>>>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>>>>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>>>>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>>>>
>>>>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>>>>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>>>>feelings.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
>
> here
>
>>>but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
>
> the
>
>>>"no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my
>
> own
>
>>>personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
>>>switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
>>>convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
>
> individual
>
>>>choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
>>>I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
>
> have
>
>>>taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
>
> little
>
>>>irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
>
> and
>
>>>then I can again see the humor in their posts.
>>>Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
>>>products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
>
> health. A
>
>>>friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin
>
> Campbell
>
>>>PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
>
> as
>
>>>well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol
>
> the
>
>>>proof is in the good health, right?
>>>
>>>good luck
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
>>has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
>>my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
>>better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
>>it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
>>about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
>>"proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
>>affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>a beleiver.
>
>
>
> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
> learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
> am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
> hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
>
>
Thanks for your kindness. It is nice to have met you too. A friend of
mine also recommended I read "The China Study". I have a copy on hold
at the library, as soon as it becomes available I'll read it and let you
know what I think. I agree with everything you've said about the
positive affects on health.

pearl wrote:
> "Isabeau" > wrote in message ...
>
>>"nyx" > wrote in message
m...
>
> <..>
>
>>>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>>elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
>>>has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
>>>my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
>>>better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
>>>it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
>>>about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
>>>"proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
>>>affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>>read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>>a beleiver.
>>
>>
>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
>>think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
>>confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
>>learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
>>am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
>>hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
>
>
> Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
> (you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
> Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
> away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!
>
>
>
>
Thanks for the advice. I didn't know I had these options!

Amanda wrote:
> Sorry I cannot be of much help, I am on a seefood diet....I see food i eat
> it...<snort>, but glad to see a new face here, i usually am pretty much a
> lurker, but if I need a recipe or something, usually Kathy's the one...she's
> the best to get that kind of info from!...as far as you wanting other
> choices try alt.food.vegan, someone there may be able to help... but the
> trolls are kinda overkill.....but ya know as was mentioned before use your
> block button, and enjoy the rest of us....*cheese*
> Amanda
> *Smile it'll get better!*
> "Isabeau" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"nyx" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>Isabeau wrote:
>>>
>>>>"nyx" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>>>>>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>>>>>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>>>>>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>>>>>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>>>>>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>>>>>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>>>>>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and
>>>>>your
>>>>>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>>>>> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian
>>>>>as
>>>>>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>>>>>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>>>>>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>>>>>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>>>>>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on,
>>>>>but
>>>>>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>>>>>
>>>>>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>>>>>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>>>>>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>>>>>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>>>>>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>>>>>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter
>>>>>what
>>>>>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>>>>>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>>>>>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>>>>>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>>>>>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>>>>>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>>>>>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>>>>>
>>>>>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>>>>>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>>>>>feelings.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
>>
>>here
>>
>>>>but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>"no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for
>>>>my
>>
>>own
>>
>>>>personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
>>>>switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
>>>>convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
>>
>>individual
>>
>>>>choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
>>>>I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
>>
>>have
>>
>>>>taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
>>
>>little
>>
>>>>irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>then I can again see the humor in their posts.
>>>>Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
>>>>products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
>>
>>health. A
>>
>>>>friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin
>>
>>Campbell
>>
>>>>PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products"
>>>>lol
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>proof is in the good health, right?
>>>>
>>>>good luck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>>about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
>>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>>people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>>What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>>elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
>>>has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
>>>my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
>>>better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
>>>it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
>>>about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
>>>"proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
>>>affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>>read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>>a beleiver.
>>
>>
>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
>>same.
>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
>>think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
>>and
>>confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
>>learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what
>>I
>>am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
>>will
>>hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Will do thanks for the recipe contact. Maybe when I get a chance,
I'll try and post some I like.

On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, "Isabeau" > wrote:

>"nyx" > wrote in message

>> These people only know what bits and pieces they
>> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>> a beleiver.
>
>
>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>information on veganism, health, food and common interests.

I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:06:15 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:

>"AL" > wrote in message ...
>> Isabeau wrote:
>
>> > The atmosphere is way to negative and
>> > confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
>> [...]
>> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
>> you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
>
>The crossposting flame troll is dh@.

This is on topic for people who are considering the ethics of their
lifestyle, if there are any.

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:46:48 +0100, "Mrs Bonk" > wrote:

>I have had to download, at great cost I might add, all these silly posts
>and chit chat

Then you must be a fool.

On Sun, 07 May 2006 23:52:04 -0600, nyx > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view.

I encourage people to consider the animals' position. Other people
oppose the suggestion.

>Now I
>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>because of the animal issues.

Since you have no interest in them, any topics that consider them
are a waste of your time. So now the question comes to mind: Why
are you opposing me for posting about a topic that you don't even
care about?

>I personally don't like what goes on, but that is NOT my reason for being
>a vegan. You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle.

Being a vegan is more than just about what you eat. If you don't
do it for ethical reasons, you are not a vegan. You're some other
type of vegetarian *maybe!*, but you are no vegan.

>You can
>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.

Regardless of what it does or doesn't do for you, it does nothing
for any animals. My objective is to get people to consider the animals
raised for food, not to consider you.

>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.

No. You don't even speak for yourself, because you never had a
way of life that I encourage people to think about, and neither has
anyone else in these ngs except maybe Rick Etter. But oddly enough
the Etter's lifestyle probably is the best in these ngs in regards to
contributing to decent lives for farm animals, but Etter himself doesn't
care in the least about that aspect of it. Oddly on the other end of the
same thing: I've met "ar" types who appear to want to claim credit
for contibuting to the very lives that they want to *prevent*--those of
animals raised for food. There's all sorts of kooky stuff around here...

>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>seems like a waste of my time to read,

Of course it is. You have no interest in the animals, but the animals
are what I encourage people to think about. Duh.

>but as a newby, I'm venting my feelings.

Well, if you're going to complain every time someone points out
something you don't care about, you're likely to stay pretty busy
wasting time.

AL wrote:
> Isabeau wrote:
>
>> "AL" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Isabeau wrote:
>>>
>>>> "nyx" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
>>>>> about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
>>>>> that.
>>>>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
>>>>> people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
>>>>> What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
>>>>> elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
>>>
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting
>>>> the same.
>>>> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and
>>>> sharing
>>>> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
>>>> don't
>>>> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to
>>>> negative and
>>>> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and
>>> maybe you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
>>>
>>> Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
>>> focused on your interests.
>>>
>>> Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading
>>> for responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And,
>>> everyone else responding to your posts must do the same. See the
>>> effect of your crossposting? You become the trolls.
>>>
>>> Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AL
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand what your talking about AL. I have only
>> subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is "alt.food.vegan" for the
>> purpose of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted
>> to other newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the
>> toolbar I see,
>> Newsgroups:
>> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food. vegan,alt.food,alt.cooking-chat
>>
>>
>> I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you are the only person
>> so far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the first name
>> in my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there I'm
>> sure
>>
>
>
>
> Then would someone, who is not in Isabeau's "killfile", please explain
> to the dolt that they can be subscribed to only one newsgroup but
> crosspost to many by responding carelessly to someone who *IS*
> crossposting. To prevent crossposting your response simply delete out
> all the groups in the recipient list to which you do NOT belong.
>
> Take a look at the list of recipients in this message - it only contains
> alt.food.vegan
>
>
> AL
>
Looks like some of us have just received a good lesson on how this thing
works. Your advice is noted. I will do my best to make it work,
until then, please accept my apologies for "cross-posting". I too was
unaware I was doing it.

On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:

>I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
>wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.

People don't go vegan for health reasons! What's wrong with you
folks? People go *vegetarian* for health reasons, but they only go
vegan for ethical reasons:
__________________________________________________ _______
The Vegan Society of New South Wales defines Veganism the following way:

Veganism is a way of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the
exclusion of all products from the animal kingdom. A vegan is a total vegetarian
who consumes no animal by-products.

Vegans go even further by avoiding both animal derivatives and animal-tested
products in their whole lifestyle. This means an avoidance of meat, milk, eggs,
butter etc., as well as leather, wool, cosmetics, soaps and shampoos derived
from animal ingredients or tested on animals.

Why? Most people who have chosen a vegan lifestyle have done so because
they have become aware of the cruelty and exploitation involved in the making
of animal products.

Vegans choose to act positively to reduce this cruelty by abstaining from
animal-derived products and thereby reducing the demand for them. Vegans
realise that it is unnecessary to inflict suffering on animals in order to lead a
healthy, happy, normal life.
[...]
http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>He just thinks that
>he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
>animal rights that are often made

I would like to be sure every person understands that being vegan
does NOTHING to help any farm animals, so if people want to help farm
animals with their lifestyle they should be more conscientious consumers
of animal products, NOT vegans. I still don't know what people find
wrong with that, but there are plenty of people opposed to it. The opposition
is a good thing, because it shows that some people are afraid it could
be significant....they're afraid that other people might consider some
alternatives to be ethically equivalent or superior to veganism.

> and he wants to present these
>criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
>to disagree about.

That may be, but it doesn't mean much. People who are in favor
of decent AW should be completely in favor of what I point out, but I've
seen people who (extremely dishonestly imo) claim to be in favor of
decent AW oppose the suggestion to deliberately try contributing to it.

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, "Isabeau" >
> wrote:
>
>>"nyx" > wrote in message
>
>>> These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>> a beleiver.
>>
>>
>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
>>same.
>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
>
> I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
> would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
> with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
> What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
> whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
> can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.

You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
instead of being vegan, right?

dh@. wrote:
> On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>
> >I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
> >wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.
>
> People don't go vegan for health reasons!

Some people do.

> What's wrong with you
> folks? People go *vegetarian* for health reasons, but they only go
> vegan for ethical reasons:
> __________________________________________________ _______
> The Vegan Society of New South Wales defines Veganism the following way:
>
> Veganism is a way of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the
> exclusion of all products from the animal kingdom. A vegan is a total vegetarian
> who consumes no animal by-products.
>
> Vegans go even further by avoiding both animal derivatives and animal-tested
> products in their whole lifestyle. This means an avoidance of meat, milk, eggs,
> butter etc., as well as leather, wool, cosmetics, soaps and shampoos derived
> from animal ingredients or tested on animals.
>
> Why? Most people who have chosen a vegan lifestyle have done so because
> they have become aware of the cruelty and exploitation involved in the making
> of animal products.
>
> Vegans choose to act positively to reduce this cruelty by abstaining from
> animal-derived products and thereby reducing the demand for them. Vegans
> realise that it is unnecessary to inflict suffering on animals in order to lead a
> healthy, happy, normal life.
> [...]
> http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> >He just thinks that
> >he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
> >animal rights that are often made
>
> I would like to be sure every person understands that being vegan
> does NOTHING to help any farm animals, so if people want to help farm
> animals with their lifestyle they should be more conscientious consumers
> of animal products, NOT vegans. I still don't know what people find
> wrong with that, but there are plenty of people opposed to it. The opposition
> is a good thing, because it shows that some people are afraid it could
> be significant....they're afraid that other people might consider some
> alternatives to be ethically equivalent or superior to veganism.
>

Veganism reduces one's contribution to processes that harm farm
animals. In that sense it helps farm animals. Some alternatives might
be at least as good, yes.

> > and he wants to present these
> >criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
> >to disagree about.
>
> That may be, but it doesn't mean much. People who are in favor
> of decent AW should be completely in favor of what I point out, but I've
> seen people who (extremely dishonestly imo) claim to be in favor of
> decent AW oppose the suggestion to deliberately try contributing to it.

Rupert wrote:

> dh@. wrote:
>
>>On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
>>>wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.
>>
>> People don't go vegan for health reasons!
>
>
> Some people do.

False. No one goes "vegan" for health reasons. As
****wit says below - one of his rare wins - people go
*vegetarian* for health reasons. "vegan" is the
complete avoidance of all animal-derived products,
including clothing, upholstery, dairy, honey, lanolin,
etc. People who go "vegan" are doing so based on their
feelings about animals, not on their health considerations.

****wit David Harrison, ordinary ignorant cracker, lied:

> On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, "Isabeau" > wrote:
>
>
>>"nyx" > wrote in message
>
>
>>>These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>>read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>>a beleiver.
>>
>>
>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
>
>
> I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
> would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock

Causing animals to "get to experience life" is not
doing those animals any favor, ****WIT.

"nyx" > wrote in message
...
> AL wrote:
> > Isabeau wrote:
> >
> >> "AL" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> Isabeau wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "nyx" > wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little
tidbits
> >>>>> about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
> >>>>> that.
> >>>>> I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
minded
> >>>>> people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
> >>>>> What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
> >>>>> elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting
> >>>> the same.
> >>>> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and
> >>>> sharing
> >>>> information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
> >>>> don't
> >>>> think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to
> >>>> negative and
> >>>> confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and
> >>> maybe you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
> >>> focused on your interests.
> >>>
> >>> Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading
> >>> for responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And,
> >>> everyone else responding to your posts must do the same. See the
> >>> effect of your crossposting? You become the trolls.
> >>>
> >>> Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> AL
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I understand what your talking about AL. I have only
> >> subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is "alt.food.vegan" for the
> >> purpose of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted
> >> to other newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the
> >> toolbar I see,
> >> Newsgroups:
> >>
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food. vegan,alt.food,alt.cooking
-chat
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you are the only person
> >> so far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the first name
> >> in my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there I'm
> >> sure
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Then would someone, who is not in Isabeau's "killfile", please explain
> > to the dolt that they can be subscribed to only one newsgroup but
> > crosspost to many by responding carelessly to someone who *IS*
> > crossposting. To prevent crossposting your response simply delete out
> > all the groups in the recipient list to which you do NOT belong.
> >
> > Take a look at the list of recipients in this message - it only contains
> > alt.food.vegan
> >
> >
> > AL
> >
> Looks like some of us have just received a good lesson on how this thing
> works. Your advice is noted. I will do my best to make it work,
> until then, please accept my apologies for "cross-posting". I too was
> unaware I was doing it.


Gee, tyvm, I learned a very valuable lesson today because of the positive
and kind advice you have given. I also was unaware that I was crossposting
and I am very sorry and will make sure that I check each time I post so that
it doesn't happen again.

****wit David Harrison, ignorant unethical lying
cracker, lied:

> When considering ethically

[something ****wit David Harrison has never done]


When considering your food choices ethically, assign
ZERO weight to the morally empty fact that choosing to
eat meat causes animals to be bred into existence.

Causing animals to exist does not do any "favor" to
those animals; and choosing not to eat meat (causing no
animals to be produced) does no harm to any animal's
interest.

Livestock animals' "getting to experience life" is of
no moral value at all. If you choose to eat meat and
cause animals to live, you have done no favor to
animals; if you choose the opposite, you have harmed no
animals' interest. The choice is morally empty,
insofar as animals are concerned.

Leif Erikson wrote:
> ****wit David Harrison, ordinary ignorant cracker, lied:
>
>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, "Isabeau" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "nyx" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>>> These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>>> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>>> a beleiver.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
>>> same.
>>> Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>> information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that
>> people would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for
>> livestock
>
>
> Causing animals to "get to experience life" is not doing those animals
> any favor, ****WIT.


"And the lion shall lay down with the lamb"

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goobernicus proclaimed:

>When considering your food choices ethically, assign
>ZERO weight to the morally empty fact that choosing to
>eat meat causes animals to be bred into existence.

Well Goo, if you argee with yourself about that, and if
you also agree with yourself that:

"NO animals benefit from farming" - Goo

"the moral harm caused by killing them is greater in
magnitude than ANY benefit they might derive from
"decent lives"" - Goo

"ONLY deliberate human killing deserves any moral
consideration." - Goo

"We're ONLY talking about deliberate human killing" - Goo

"the nutritionally unnecessary choice deliberately to kill an
animal ALWAYS causes a moral harm greater in magnitude
than . . . the moral "benefit" realized by the animal in existing
at all" - Goo

Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:

"no matter how "decent" the conditions are, the deliberate killing
of the animals erases all of it." - Goo

or do you think you disagree with yourself about several of
your beliefs Goo? And if so, which particular ones and why
or how do you disagree with yourself about them? Don't
just ineptly say you disagree without providing any reason
again, but explain your absurdity in at least some detail
for once, you lame Goober.

On Wed, 10 May 2006 06:05:32 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes > wrote:

>"And the lion shall lay down with the lamb"

While he finishes eating it.

On Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:14 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:

>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, "Isabeau" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"nyx" > wrote in message
>>
>>>> These people only know what bits and pieces they
>>>> read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
>>>> It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
>>>> a beleiver.
>>>
>>>
>>>I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
>>>same.
>>>Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
>>>information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
>>
>> I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
>> would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
>> with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
>> What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
>> whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
>> can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.
>
>You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
>instead of being vegan, right?

By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
value for farm animals. In the past you pretended to understand that:

"The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
has positive or negative value to the animal."

but later tried to disagree with yourself, or whatever it was you were
trying to do. Are you now agreeing with yourself again or something?
Are you again pretending to understand the truth of what you wrote,
or can you now explain why you think you were wrong to have ever
believed it to begin with?