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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
"Dave" > wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > Glorfindel wrote: >> >> rick wrote: >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> > oups.com... >> >> >> >> >>rick wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... >> >> >> >> >>How is it racist? >> >> >>=========== >> >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her >> >> > comparisons >> >> > are black to dogs. >> >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of every >> >> ethnic group. >> > >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick to >> > be accusing you of racism. The setence "Black people >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different meaning >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. >> ========================== >> No, the fact that all > > Some > ===================== All of them here on usenet. I've said many times here that I refer only to usenet vegans. >> vegan loons > > Advocates =========================== Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > >> always compare animals to people > > Well they do have some things in common don't they? ======================= Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it too. Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan loons only focus on animals that they think others are killing. Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less support animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. >> Pets are like slaves, > > Is not a racist statement. ==================== Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I responding with several years of posting history about their comparisions... > >> the >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > > Is not a racist statement. ========================= Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with chickens in barns is racist and demeaning. It also displays their hatred of people quite explicitly too... > >> That you >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you >> too... > > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising > animals > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. ============================== LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. You should tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves and death camps all the time making just such claims... >> >> > >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is >> >> showing. >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to the >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. >> >> >> >> <snip> >> > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Dave wrote:
<snip> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. <snip> I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally equivalent to slavery, and raising animals for meat as it is done in modern factory farms is equivalent to treatment of humans in concentration camps or poorly-run prison camps. It is not equivalent to genocide, because the purpose is not to eliminate a species or breed of animal. It is immoral, IMO, for two main reasons: the welfare concerns WART the way the animals are treated, and the more basic moral issue of treating subject-of-a-life beings with inherent value as mere economic products, as things, as property. The moral issue for both pets and "food" animals is the same: treating a being who should be treated as a "he" or "she" -- even if not a being with the same kind of rights as a normal adult human -- as an "it", a thing, a mere piece of property which has only contingent worth based on its utilitarian value to humans. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Karen Winter blabbered:
> Dave wrote: > > <snip> > > > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals > > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > <snip> > > I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally > equivalent to slavery, You don't "argue" it, Karen - you merely assert it as an expression of your incoherent belief. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
"Glorfindel" > wrote in message ... > Dave wrote: > > <snip> > >> Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising >> animals >> for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > <snip> > > I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally > equivalent to slavery, and raising animals for meat as it is > done in modern factory farms is equivalent to treatment of > humans in concentration camps or poorly-run prison camps. It > is not equivalent to genocide, because the purpose is not to > eliminate a species or breed of animal. It is immoral, IMO, > for two main reasons: the welfare concerns WART the way the > animals are treated, and the more basic moral issue of treating > subject-of-a-life beings with inherent value as mere economic > products, as things, as property. The moral issue for both > pets > and "food" animals is the same: treating a being who should be > treated as a "he" or "she" -- even if not a being with the same > kind of rights as a normal adult human -- as an "it", a thing, > a mere piece of property which has only contingent worth based > on its utilitarian value to humans. > ================================ Yet YOU fail to treat animals in any humane way for your diet and entertainemnt, fool. You continue to prove that animals do not have rights, and that YOU do not belive they do or should, killer. > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Vegetarians are so nice and civilized that they have no defenses
against the dirt spewed at them by meat industry shills. These are paid predators for the meat industry. Maybe it just one meat industry shill posting under numerous aliases (rick=Erikson==Dutch). That is why it is necessary for someone to come along and make these foul mouthed assholes eating their own shit. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from meat industry shills...
Leif Erikson wrote:
> Meat industry shills are such colossal assholes. > Right. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
> wrote in message oups.com... > Vegetarians are so nice and civilized ======================== ROTFLMAo What happened to you then, killer? that they have no defenses > against the dirt spewed at them by meat industry shills. These > are > paid predators for the meat industry. Maybe it just one meat > industry > shill posting under numerous aliases (rick=Erikson==Dutch). > That is why > it is necessary for someone to come along and make these foul > mouthed > assholes eating their own shit. ============================ Too bad you haven't found anybody yet, fool... > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > Glorfindel wrote: > >> >> rick wrote: > >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> > oups.com... > >> >> > >> >> >>rick wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... > >> >> > >> >> >>How is it racist? > >> >> >>=========== > >> >> > >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her > >> >> > comparisons > >> >> > are black to dogs. > >> >> > >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this > >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of every > >> >> ethnic group. > >> > > >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick to > >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people > >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different meaning > >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact > >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. > >> ========================== > >> No, the fact that all > > > > Some > > ===================== > All of them here on usenet. Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make these types of comparison. > I've said many times here that I > refer only to usenet vegans. > > >> vegan loons > > > > Advocates > =========================== > Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their > position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but not all of them by any means. > > > >> always compare animals to people > > > > Well they do have some things in common don't they? > ======================= > Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it > too. Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. Slaves don't have rights either. > Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan > loons only focus on animals that they think others are killing. > Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and > entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less support > animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people > that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > > > > > >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. > >> Pets are like slaves, > > > > Is not a racist statement. > ==================== > Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I > responding with several years of posting history about their > comparisions... The statement you replied to was not racist. > > > > > >> the > >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > > > > Is not a racist statement. > ========================= > Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with chickens > in barns is racist and demeaning. It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to jews. She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the way humans treated humans in the past. > It also displays their hatred > of people quite explicitly too... I disagree. > > > >> That you > >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you > >> too... > > > > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising > > animals > > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > ============================== > LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree with. The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. > You should > tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves and > death camps all the time making just such claims... > > > > > >> > >> > > >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, > >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack > >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is > >> >> showing. > >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to the > >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. > >> >> > >> >> <snip> > >> > > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Glorfindel wrote: > Dave wrote: > > <snip> > > > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals > > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > <snip> > > I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally > equivalent to slavery, I disagree because in there is a major difference in motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets for companionship and treat them well. People who buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they can live off the work of others. > and raising animals for meat as it is > done in modern factory farms is equivalent to treatment of > humans in concentration camps or poorly-run prison camps. I have some sympathy for this view. I abhor the way animals are treated as little more than production machines in many intensive systems. > It > is not equivalent to genocide, because the purpose is not to > eliminate a species or breed of animal. It is immoral, IMO, > for two main reasons: the welfare concerns WART what does WART stand for? the way the > animals are treated, and the more basic moral issue of treating > subject-of-a-life beings with inherent value as mere economic > products, as things, as property. I believe the vast majority of pets are treated with far more consideration then mere, economic products, things, property. Some food animals are too. > The moral issue for both pets > and "food" animals is the same: treating a being who should be > treated as a "he" or "she" -- even if not a being with the same > kind of rights as a normal adult human -- as an "it", a thing, > a mere piece of property which has only contingent worth based > on its utilitarian value to humans. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
belive -> believe
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
"Dave" > wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > rick wrote: >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> oups.com... >> >> > >> >> > Glorfindel wrote: >> >> >> rick wrote: >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> >> > oups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> >>rick wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... >> >> >> >> >> >> >>How is it racist? >> >> >> >>=========== >> >> >> >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her >> >> >> > comparisons >> >> >> > are black to dogs. >> >> >> >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of >> >> >> every >> >> >> ethnic group. >> >> > >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick >> >> > to >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different >> >> > meaning >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. >> >> ========================== >> >> No, the fact that all >> > >> > Some >> > ===================== >> All of them here on usenet. > > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make these > types of comparison. ================================= Then stick around, or read for comprehension... here's a few past gems.. === Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat industry not responsible for holocaust? Francis Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev === I don't think humans are more important than any other life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this statement with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted weirdo. ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, what's the difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most part, don't give a damn about other lifeforms. Prominus Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv ===== How kind of you to save those poor animals from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should solve the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making THEM into human game reserves and have open season on their populations. Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then to let them starve slowly, Marc. Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it seemed like such a good solution. Bernie Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa > >> I've said many times here that I >> refer only to usenet vegans. >> >> >> vegan loons >> > >> > Advocates >> =========================== >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but not > all of them by any means. ======================= Just wait awhile... > >> > >> >> always compare animals to people >> > >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? >> ======================= >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it >> too. > > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. Slaves > don't have rights either. ====================== Really? > >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are >> killing. >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less >> support >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. >> >> >> > >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. >> >> Pets are like slaves, >> > >> > Is not a racist statement. >> ==================== >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I >> responding with several years of posting history about their >> comparisions... > > The statement you replied to was not racist. ==================== Yes, her claims are... >> >> >> > >> >> the >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. >> > >> > Is not a racist statement. >> ========================= >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with >> chickens >> in barns is racist and demeaning. > > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to jews. > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the > way humans treated humans in the past. ============================ LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... Hand waving noted... > >> It also displays their hatred >> of people quite explicitly too... > > I disagree. ====================== I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. > >> > >> >> That you >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you >> >> too... >> > >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. >> > Raising >> > animals >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >> ============================== >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. > > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree > with. > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. ================== No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as interchangable. > >> You should >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves >> and >> death camps all the time making just such claims... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is >> >> >> showing. >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to >> >> >> the >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. >> >> >> >> >> >> <snip> >> >> > >> > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Dave wrote:
> Glorfindel wrote: >>Dave wrote: >><snip> >>>Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals >>>for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >><snip> >>I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally >>equivalent to slavery, > I disagree because in there is a major difference in > motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets > for companionship and treat them well. People who > buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they > can live off the work of others. I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes and no." First, you have distinguish between people who buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from the street. The mindset is very different. While rescue can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit the animal. People who work in rescue usually do regard the animals they place as beings for whom they act as guardians, and they usually have fairly stringent requirements to adopt, including a home visit, a certain level of income so the animal's needs can be met, and welfare requirements such as keeping the animal inside rather than outdoors, proper vet care, and a contract which allows the rescue to take the animal back if the group does not think the animal is being cared for properly. All of my companion animals have come from this kind of rescue, or my own rescue efforts, and I have also worked with rescue groups like these. Rescues disapprove of buying animals for several reasons. One is that people will deliberately breed purebreds and charge high prices for them (hundreds to thousands of dollars) while millions of less fortunate shelter animals die. Another is that the few pet stores which still sell cats and dogs often buy them from puppy or kitten mills which mistreat the breeding stock and produce sick puppies and kittens. Virtually all birds and small animals in pet stores are bred this way. If you go on a website like the Gabriel Foundation for parrots, you can read about some of the horrible things done to highly intelligent and social birds to provide them to the pet trade. To people who buy animals, they are commodities, products. I've had people ask me why I would pay a hundred dollars to have a tumor removed from a rat, when I could buy another one for less than ten dollars. Also, animals are bought for various kinds of work -- herding, guarding, carting, and so on -- and a lonely dog left by himself to guard a city lot is certainly not bought for companionship or treated particularly well. There are many dogs who end up as fighting dogs, living alarm systems, status symbols of some kind, and so on. An amazing number of them end up starving to death in somebody's back yard or basement. As long as animals are legally property and can be bought and sold, there will be far too many who are seen as no *more* than property, to be used for human purposes and discarded when they become inconvenient or useless to their owners. The goal must be to make all animals adoptees, not products. People who buy animals do it for the same selfish reasons people buy slaves -- anything from a worker to be worked to death, starved, and replaced, to a beautiful status symbol to be pampered and to display one's wealth and taste. > >>and raising animals for meat as it is >>done in modern factory farms is equivalent to treatment of >>humans in concentration camps or poorly-run prison camps. > I have some sympathy for this view. I abhor the way animals > are treated as little more than production machines in many > intensive systems. >>It >>is not equivalent to genocide, because the purpose is not to >>eliminate a species or breed of animal. It is immoral, IMO, >>for two main reasons: the welfare concerns WART > what does WART stand for? An overactive spellchecker.  I meant WRT -- with regard to.> the way the >>animals are treated, and the more basic moral issue of treating >>subject-of-a-life beings with inherent value as mere economic >>products, as things, as property. > I believe the vast majority of pets are treated with far more > consideration then mere, economic products, things, property. > Some food animals are too. Yes, some food animals are, particularly ones who produce "renewable resources" like eggs or milk. I *have* known a person who bred and slaughtered his own goats, but I could never understand how someone could do it. Then there are those poor kids who raise animals for 4H and have to sell them for slaughter. I can't imagine it. On the other hand, I've known people with a small flock of free-living rescue chickens kept for eggs, or my grandmother's little Jersey cow who was as much a companion animal as a milk-producing machine. If we could eliminate factory farming, it would not satisfy animal rights objections to animals as products, but it would be a great welfare benefit. It's a good interim goal on which almost everyone can agree. >>The moral issue for both pets >>and "food" animals is the same: treating a being who should be >>treated as a "he" or "she" -- even if not a being with the same >>kind of rights as a normal adult human -- as an "it", a thing, >>a mere piece of property which has only contingent worth based >>on its utilitarian value to humans. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Glorfindel wrote:
> Dave wrote: > >> Glorfindel wrote: > > >>> Dave wrote: > > >>> <snip> > > >>>> Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals >>>> for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > >>> <snip> > > >>> I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally >>> equivalent to slavery, > > >> I disagree because in there is a major difference in >> motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets >> for companionship and treat them well. People who >> buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they >> can live off the work of others. > > > I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes > and no." First, you have distinguish between people who > buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals > from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from > the street. No. No distinction is necessary. It doesn't help to explain anything. > The mindset is very different. Not really. > While rescue > can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general > rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit > the animal. No different from people who own pets, except the pet owners aren't patting themselves on the back for it. > People who work in rescue usually do regard > the animals they place as beings for whom they act as > guardians, They're wrong. > [snip unimportant and uninteresting details of self-aggrandizing "rescue" shitheads] > > As long as animals are legally property and can be bought and > sold, That is not going to change. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Leif Erikson wrote:
> Glorfindel wrote: >> As long as animals are legally property and can be bought and >> sold, > That is not going to change. I think it will, at least in the case of companion animals. In the U.S. at least, most major "pet store" chains have gone from selling dogs and cats to providing space to local shelters and rescue groups. I think this will expand over time to include birds and small animals. Most species already have rescue organizations, like Gabriel Foundation, House Rabbit Society, guinea pig rescue, and so on, which could move into this position and end the sale of all animals. People are more aware of spay/neuter, and more inclined to adopt rather than buy -- look at such advertising campaigns as Pedigree's new one with the slogan "We're for shelter dogs" and their donations to rescue. The worst abuses are in factory farming of "food" animals, but even there mainstream society has become much more aware of the conditions in such places, and less willing to buy from them. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Karen Winter blabbered:
> Leif Erikson wrote: > >> Karen Winter blabbered: > > >>> As long as animals are legally property and can be bought and >>> sold, > > > >> That is not going to change. > > > I think it will, at least in the case of companion animals. No, you *hope* it will, and you are confusing your wishes with what is likely. > In the U.S. at least, most major "pet store" chains have > gone from selling dogs and cats to providing space to local > shelters and rescue groups. They still sell pets. > I think this will expand over time > to include birds and small animals. No, you *want* it to change. It isn't likely to happen. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Leif Erikson wrote:
> No, you *hope* it will, and you are confusing your wishes with what is > likely. No, that would be you. No one can know for certain what will happen in the future, but social forces are moving in the direction of adoption rather than sale, even for purebreds (breed rescues ). |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:51:20 GMT, Leif Erikson > wrote:
>Glorfindel wrote: >> Dave wrote: >> >>> Glorfindel wrote: >> >> >>>> Dave wrote: >> >> >>>> <snip> >> >> >>>>> Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals >>>>> for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >> >> >>>> <snip> >> >> >>>> I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally >>>> equivalent to slavery, >> >> >>> I disagree because in there is a major difference in >>> motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets >>> for companionship and treat them well. People who >>> buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they >>> can live off the work of others. >> >> >> I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes >> and no." First, you have distinguish between people who >> buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals >> from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from >> the street. > >No. No distinction is necessary. It doesn't help to >explain anything. > > >> The mindset is very different. > >Not really. > > >> While rescue >> can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general >> rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit >> the animal. > >No different from people who own pets, Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. People who "own pets" don't necessarily try to provide their animals with decent lives. They want to own them. Some do care about it, while others like yourself never even give it any consideration at all. Some even let the pets they own starve to death, and many many are neglected and malnourished. Some people even think it's funny to see animals neglected or even mistreated. You could never understand, because you don't even think the issue is worthy of consideration. However, even though you can't understand I'll go ahead and point out anyway that some pet owners care about their animals and some don't. Some people who fight game fowl care about their birds and some don't. Some farmers care about their livestock and some don't, but even if they don't "care" about the animals farmers still must take adaquate care of them to get what they want out of them. But you're not going to see people who go through the efforts of getting an animal through a rescue place, not care about whether or not life is of positive value to the animal they take in. You can't understand, but it's true regardless of your lack of ability to comprehend things like that. >except the pet >owners aren't patting themselves on the back for it. You can't understand how life can have positive value for anything, much less for pets, much much less for livestock, much much much less can you understand why a person would consider it when they think about human influence on animals. The big question is: Since you apparently can't even understand it, why are you so opposed to seeing it given any consideration by people who can? What are you afraid might happen if more people deliberately tried to provide animals with lives of positive value? |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:52:09 -0700, Glorfindel > wrote:
>Rescues disapprove of buying animals for several reasons. One >is that people will deliberately breed purebreds and charge >high prices for them (hundreds to thousands of dollars) while >millions of less fortunate shelter animals die. The way to end the overpopulation problem is to provide cheap spaying and neutering etc, imo. There are obviously plenty of people who want dogs, but there are obviously also plenty of people who end up with more than they want of them. Cats too. So how else to solve the problem? Of course now some people may be confused because I encourage consideration of animals' lives, and now I'm encouraging preventing some who would be likely to have short lives of negative value. If you're having a problem with that it's probably because you can't understand how life could have positive value for any animals, so of course you can't understand distinctions between when it would and when it would not. There are actually people posting to these ngs who have absolutely no clue about value of life to animals, much less can they take it into consideration when thinking about human influence on them. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
<d@.> wrote in message ... > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:51:20 GMT, Leif Erikson > > wrote: > >>Glorfindel wrote: >>> Dave wrote: >>> >>>> Glorfindel wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> Dave wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> <snip> >>> >>> >>>>>> Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. >>>>>> Raising animals >>>>>> for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >>> >>> >>>>> <snip> >>> >>> >>>>> I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is >>>>> morally >>>>> equivalent to slavery, >>> >>> >>>> I disagree because in there is a major difference in >>>> motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets >>>> for companionship and treat them well. People who >>>> buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they >>>> can live off the work of others. >>> >>> >>> I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes >>> and no." First, you have distinguish between people who >>> buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals >>> from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from >>> the street. >> >>No. No distinction is necessary. It doesn't help to >>explain anything. >> >> >>> The mindset is very different. >> >>Not really. >> >> >>> While rescue >>> can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general >>> rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit >>> the animal. >> >>No different from people who own pets, > > Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. People who "own pets" > don't necessarily try to provide their animals with decent > lives. > They want to own them. Some do care about it, while others > like yourself never even give it any consideration at all. Some > even let the pets they own starve to death, and many many > are neglected and malnourished. Some people even think it's > funny to see animals neglected or even mistreated. You could > never understand, because you don't even think the issue is > worthy of consideration. However, even though you can't > understand I'll go ahead and point out anyway that some pet > owners care about their animals and some don't. Some people > who fight game fowl care about their birds and some don't. > Some farmers care about their livestock and some don't, but > even if they don't "care" about the animals farmers still must > take adaquate care of them to get what they want out of them. > But you're not going to see people who go through the efforts > of getting an animal through a rescue place, not care about > whether or not life is of positive value to the animal they > take > in. You can't understand, but it's true regardless of your lack > of ability to comprehend things like that. ================================= PeTA rescues animals all the time. Then they con the rubes for as much money as possible by plying on their sympathy. Then, when the animals start actually costing PeTA money, they kill them. They kill more than they place out. Is that the kind of comprehension you think Lief is lacking? > >>except the pet >>owners aren't patting themselves on the back for it. > > You can't understand how life can have positive value for > anything, much less for pets, much much less for livestock, > much much much less can you understand why a person > would consider it when they think about human influence on > animals. The big question is: Since you apparently can't even > understand it, why are you so opposed to seeing it given any > consideration by people who can? What are you afraid might > happen if more people deliberately tried to provide animals > with lives of positive value? ====================== Which people are those, and which animals? The same people that raise a fuss over cute little kitty-cats give no second thought to killing animals brutally and inhumanely for their usenet entertainment... |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
What language did you say was your native tongue? |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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If I Had $40 Million
Autymn D. C. wrote:
> ant and dec wrote: >> Autymn D. C. wrote: >>> there -> their >>> there -> their >>> dads -> dad's >>> Hes -> He's >>> whats -> what's >>> >> You talk absolute ********. I suggest you seek mental help. Diputs woc. > > I talk you. > You talk absolute ********. I suggest you seek mental help. Diputs woc. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
"Glorfindel" > wrote in message ... > > What language did you say was your native tongue? ============= I see you cannot refute the facts, eh killer? |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
rick wrote: > "Glorfindel" > wrote in message > ... > > > > What language did you say was your native tongue? > ============= > I see you cannot refute the facts, eh killer? I see you still haven't provided any photographic evidence of the killing of animals in crop harvests. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > rick wrote: > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> oups.com... > >> >> > > >> >> > Glorfindel wrote: > >> >> >> rick wrote: > >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> >> > oups.com... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>rick wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>How is it racist? > >> >> >> >>=========== > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her > >> >> >> > comparisons > >> >> >> > are black to dogs. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this > >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of > >> >> >> every > >> >> >> ethnic group. > >> >> > > >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick > >> >> > to > >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people > >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different > >> >> > meaning > >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact > >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. > >> >> ========================== > >> >> No, the fact that all > >> > > >> > Some > >> > ===================== > >> All of them here on usenet. > > > > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make these > > types of comparison. > ================================= > Then stick around, or read for comprehension... > > here's a few past gems.. > === > > Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" > Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition > > > Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat > industry not > responsible for holocaust? > > Francis > Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev > === > > I don't think humans are more important than any other > life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this > statement > with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted weirdo. > ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, > what's the > difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of > animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most > part, > don't give a damn about other lifeforms. > Prominus > Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv > > > > > ===== > How kind of you to save those poor animals > from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should > solve > the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making > THEM > into human game reserves and have open season on their > populations. > Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then to > let > them starve slowly, Marc. > Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it > seemed > like such a good solution. > Bernie > Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa That shows that some vegans feel that way. You have not supported your claim that *all* vegans do. > > > >> I've said many times here that I > >> refer only to usenet vegans. > >> > >> >> vegan loons > >> > > >> > Advocates > >> =========================== > >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their > >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > > > > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but not > > all of them by any means. > ======================= > Just wait awhile... > > > > >> > > >> >> always compare animals to people > >> > > >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? > >> ======================= > >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it > >> too. > > > > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. Slaves > > don't have rights either. > ====================== > Really? What rights do you think slaves have/had? > >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan > >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are > >> killing. > >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and > >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less > >> support > >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people > >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. > >> >> Pets are like slaves, > >> > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > >> ==================== > >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I > >> responding with several years of posting history about their > >> comparisions... > > > > The statement you replied to was not racist. > ==================== > Yes, her claims are... She isn't making comparisons between any particular races of humans. None of the statements made by her in this thread have been racist. > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> the > >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > >> > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > >> ========================= > >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with > >> chickens > >> in barns is racist and demeaning. > > > > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to jews. > > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the > > way humans treated humans in the past. > ============================ > LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. She is comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms today with the treatment of humans who happened to be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would have been just the same whatever the race of people who had been sent to those camps. > Hand waving noted... > > > >> It also displays their hatred > >> of people quite explicitly too... > > > > I disagree. > ====================== > I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee > that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That > is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. That is not the example you just claimed demonstrated vegan hatred of people. The bpg posts you now refer to don't show that all vegans hate people just that some vegans hate some people. > > > >> > > >> >> That you > >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you > >> >> too... > >> > > >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. > >> > Raising > >> > animals > >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > >> ============================== > >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. > > > > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree > > with. > > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. > ================== > No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as > interchangable. By the same token one would expect them to see different races of people as interchangable, which is of course the very antithesis of racism. > >> You should > >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves > >> and > >> death camps all the time making just such claims... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, > >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack > >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is > >> >> >> showing. > >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> <snip> > >> >> > > >> > > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
"Dave" > wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > rick wrote: >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> oups.com... >> >> > >> >> > rick wrote: >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> >> oups.com... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Glorfindel wrote: >> >> >> >> rick wrote: >> >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> >> >> > oups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>rick wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>How is it racist? >> >> >> >> >>=========== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her >> >> >> >> > comparisons >> >> >> >> > are black to dogs. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this >> >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of >> >> >> >> every >> >> >> >> ethnic group. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of >> >> >> > Rick >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people >> >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different >> >> >> > meaning >> >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The >> >> >> > fact >> >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. >> >> >> ========================== >> >> >> No, the fact that all >> >> > >> >> > Some >> >> > ===================== >> >> All of them here on usenet. >> > >> > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make >> > these >> > types of comparison. >> ================================= >> Then stick around, or read for comprehension... >> >> here's a few past gems.. >> === >> >> Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" >> Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition >> >> >> Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat >> industry not >> responsible for holocaust? >> >> Francis >> Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev >> === >> >> I don't think humans are more important than any other >> life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this >> statement >> with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted >> weirdo. >> ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, >> what's the >> difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of >> animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most >> part, >> don't give a damn about other lifeforms. >> Prominus >> Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> How kind of you to save those poor animals >> from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should >> solve >> the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making >> THEM >> into human game reserves and have open season on their >> populations. >> Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then >> to >> let >> them starve slowly, Marc. >> Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it >> seemed >> like such a good solution. >> Bernie >> Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa > > That shows that some vegans feel that way. You have not > supported your claim that *all* vegans do. ======================= Every vegan i've seen here on usenet is a loon. If you would read what I have written, many times, you'll see that i am referenceing vegans as those here on usenet. I'm sure that somewhere, someplace, at sometime there has been a real vegan somewhere in the world. They are few and far between in our modern western consumer oriented lifestyle. > >> > >> >> I've said many times here that I >> >> refer only to usenet vegans. >> >> >> >> >> vegan loons >> >> > >> >> > Advocates >> >> =========================== >> >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean >> >> their >> >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... >> > >> > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but >> > not >> > all of them by any means. >> ======================= >> Just wait awhile... >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> always compare animals to people >> >> > >> >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? >> >> ======================= >> >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know >> >> it >> >> too. >> > >> > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. >> > Slaves >> > don't have rights either. >> ====================== >> Really? > > What rights do you think slaves have/had? > >> >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan >> >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are >> >> killing. >> >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet >> >> and >> >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less >> >> support >> >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to >> >> people >> >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. >> >> >> Pets are like slaves, >> >> > >> >> > Is not a racist statement. >> >> ==================== >> >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I >> >> responding with several years of posting history about >> >> their >> >> comparisions... >> > >> > The statement you replied to was not racist. >> ==================== >> Yes, her claims are... > > She isn't making comparisons between any particular > races of humans. None of the statements made by her > in this thread have been racist. ====================== Then lets say she's a bigot... Anyway you slice it, she demeans peoiple because she ultimately hates people. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> the >> >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. >> >> > >> >> > Is not a racist statement. >> >> ========================= >> >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with >> >> chickens >> >> in barns is racist and demeaning. >> > >> > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to >> > jews. >> > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the >> > way humans treated humans in the past. >> ============================ >> LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > > She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. =========================== Yes, she is. You cannot seperate the words from what she says. She is > comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms > today with the treatment of humans who happened to > be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would > have been just the same whatever the race of people who > had been sent to those camps. =========================== LOL Tap, tap, tap... > >> Hand waving noted... > >> > >> >> It also displays their hatred >> >> of people quite explicitly too... >> > >> > I disagree. >> ====================== >> I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee >> that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That >> is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. > > That is not the example you just claimed demonstrated vegan > hatred of people. The bpg posts you now refer to don't show > that all vegans hate people just that some vegans hate some > people. ======================== His post is just another in a long line of hate filled posts by vegans. It's part of the religion apparently. >> > >> >> > >> >> >> That you >> >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you >> >> >> too... >> >> > >> >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. >> >> > Raising >> >> > animals >> >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >> >> ============================== >> >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. >> > >> > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree >> > with. >> > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. >> ================== >> No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as >> interchangable. > > By the same token one would expect them to see different races > of people as interchangable, which is of course the very > antithesis > of racism. ======================= Try reading back posts by many here on usenet. read all about the chinks, gooks, jews, etc that has been posted by hate-filled vegans. > >> >> You should >> >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to >> >> slaves >> >> and >> >> death camps all the time making just such claims... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, >> >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your >> >> >> >> lack >> >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is >> >> >> >> showing. >> >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <snip> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
rick wrote:
<snip> >>>LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... >>She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. Correct, I am not. > =========================== > Yes, she is. You cannot seperate the words from what she says. > She is >>comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms >>today with the treatment of humans who happened to >>be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would >>have been just the same whatever the race of people who >>had been sent to those camps. Again, people like rick either do not know, or choose to ignore, the many other examples of concentration camps and poorly-run prison camps in history. They also ignore the other groups held in the German camps, which included political prisoners, Poles and other Slavic people, Gypsies, homosexuals, and so on. A concentration camp/prison camp could be run by the British during the Boer War, by Soviets during Stalin's regime, by Americans at Andersonville or Bosque Redondo, and by most other regimes at one time or another in most countries. It is not bigotry or racism to say that the treatment of those held in such facilities is, and was, immoral, whether the victims are human or non-human. <snip> |
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
****wit David Harrison lied:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:51:20 GMT, Leif Erikson > wrote: > > >>Glorfindel wrote: >> >>>Dave wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Glorfindel wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>Dave wrote: >>> >>> >>>>><snip> >>> >>> >>>>>>Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals >>>>>>for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. >>> >>> >>>>><snip> >>> >>> >>>>>I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally >>>>>equivalent to slavery, >>> >>> >>>>I disagree because in there is a major difference in >>>>motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets >>>>for companionship and treat them well. People who >>>>buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they >>>>can live off the work of others. >>> >>> >>>I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes >>>and no." First, you have distinguish between people who >>>buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals >>>from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from >>>the street. >> >>No. No distinction is necessary. It doesn't help to >>explain anything. >> >> >> >>>The mindset is very different. >> >>Not really. >> >> >> >>>While rescue >>>can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general >>>rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit >>>the animal. >> >>No different from people who own pets, > > > Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. It isn't different, ever. > >>except the pet >>owners aren't patting themselves on the back for it. > > > You can't understand how life can have positive value for > anything, Coming into existence has NO VALUE for any animal, ****wit. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
John Wesley wrote:
> In article >, says... >>First, you have distinguish between people who >>buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals >>from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from >>the street. > I think you're dead wrong. If someone gets a dog for free they will > think "Hey if he gets sick and dies I'll just get another one for > free." They may, or they may not. > Most shelters charge a fee. And that's exactly why they do it. However, there are also people who take in a stray for the same reason they would adopt from a shelter or rescue -- just cut out the middleman, as it were. > My purebread dog was not much more than > what they charge at the local pound for an adoption. > I just spent $398 on my dog at the emergency vet. I've spent over $300 > on vaccinations, worm checks, etc. Hes a purebread dog and yes I bought > him. I have alegries and he is one of the breeds I have found that I'm > not alergic too. I had pound puppies when I was a kid and so did my > wife. I'd do it again if I could find a dog there that I wasn't > allergic too. Did you check with a breed rescue first? Most breeds have them. Or go on line to Petfinder.com. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Glorfindel wrote: > rick wrote: > > <snip> > >>>LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > > >>She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. > > Correct, I am not. > > > =========================== > > Yes, she is. You cannot seperate the words from what she says. > > > She is > >>comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms > >>today with the treatment of humans who happened to > >>be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would > >>have been just the same whatever the race of people who > >>had been sent to those camps. > > Again, people like rick either do not know, or choose to > ignore, the many other examples of concentration camps > and poorly-run prison camps in history. They also ignore > the other groups held in the German camps, which included > political prisoners, Poles and other Slavic people, Gypsies, > homosexuals, and so on. A concentration camp/prison camp > could be run by the British during the Boer War, by Soviets > during Stalin's regime, by Americans at Andersonville or > Bosque Redondo, and by most other regimes at one time or > another in most countries. > > It is not bigotry or racism to say that the treatment of > those held in such facilities is, and was, immoral, whether > the victims are human or non-human. No. It's just reasonable. > > <snip> |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > rick wrote: > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> oups.com... > >> >> > > >> >> > rick wrote: > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> >> oups.com... > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Glorfindel wrote: > >> >> >> >> rick wrote: > >> >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> >> >> > oups.com... > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >>rick wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >>How is it racist? > >> >> >> >> >>=========== > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her > >> >> >> >> > comparisons > >> >> >> >> > are black to dogs. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this > >> >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of > >> >> >> >> every > >> >> >> >> ethnic group. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of > >> >> >> > Rick > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people > >> >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different > >> >> >> > meaning > >> >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The > >> >> >> > fact > >> >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. > >> >> >> ========================== > >> >> >> No, the fact that all > >> >> > > >> >> > Some > >> >> > ===================== > >> >> All of them here on usenet. > >> > > >> > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make > >> > these > >> > types of comparison. > >> ================================= > >> Then stick around, or read for comprehension... > >> > >> here's a few past gems.. > >> === > >> > >> Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" > >> Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition > >> > >> > >> Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat > >> industry not > >> responsible for holocaust? > >> > >> Francis > >> Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev > >> === > >> > >> I don't think humans are more important than any other > >> life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this > >> statement > >> with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted > >> weirdo. > >> ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, > >> what's the > >> difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of > >> animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most > >> part, > >> don't give a damn about other lifeforms. > >> Prominus > >> Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ===== > >> How kind of you to save those poor animals > >> from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should > >> solve > >> the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making > >> THEM > >> into human game reserves and have open season on their > >> populations. > >> Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then > >> to > >> let > >> them starve slowly, Marc. > >> Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it > >> seemed > >> like such a good solution. > >> Bernie > >> Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa > > > > That shows that some vegans feel that way. You have not > > supported your claim that *all* vegans do. > ======================= > Every vegan i've seen here on usenet is a loon. If you would > read what I have written, many times, you'll see that i am > referenceing vegans as those here on usenet. I'm sure that > somewhere, someplace, at sometime there has been a real vegan > somewhere in the world. They are few and far between in our > modern western consumer oriented lifestyle. > > > > > > >> > > >> >> I've said many times here that I > >> >> refer only to usenet vegans. > >> >> > >> >> >> vegan loons > >> >> > > >> >> > Advocates > >> >> =========================== > >> >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean > >> >> their > >> >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > >> > > >> > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but > >> > not > >> > all of them by any means. > >> ======================= > >> Just wait awhile... > >> > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> always compare animals to people > >> >> > > >> >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? > >> >> ======================= > >> >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know > >> >> it > >> >> too. > >> > > >> > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. > >> > Slaves > >> > don't have rights either. > >> ====================== > >> Really? > > > > What rights do you think slaves have/had? > > > >> >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan > >> >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are > >> >> killing. > >> >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet > >> >> and > >> >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less > >> >> support > >> >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to > >> >> people > >> >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. > >> >> >> Pets are like slaves, > >> >> > > >> >> > Is not a racist statement. > >> >> ==================== > >> >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I > >> >> responding with several years of posting history about > >> >> their > >> >> comparisions... > >> > > >> > The statement you replied to was not racist. > >> ==================== > >> Yes, her claims are... > > > > She isn't making comparisons between any particular > > races of humans. None of the statements made by her > > in this thread have been racist. > ====================== > Then lets say she's a bigot... Anyway you slice it, she demeans > peoiple because she ultimately hates people. Her statements are certainly not racist or bigotted and IMO they are not demeaning to people either. They could perhaps be described as melodramatic. > > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > >> >> > > >> >> > Is not a racist statement. > >> >> ========================= > >> >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with > >> >> chickens > >> >> in barns is racist and demeaning. > >> > > >> > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to > >> > jews. > >> > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the > >> > way humans treated humans in the past. > >> ============================ > >> LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > > > > She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. > =========================== > Yes, she is. You cannot seperate the words from what she says. What she says needs to be considered in context. > > She is > > comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms > > today with the treatment of humans who happened to > > be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would > > have been just the same whatever the race of people who > > had been sent to those camps. > =========================== > LOL Tap, tap, tap... No tap dancing involved. Just plain common sense. > > > >> Hand waving noted... > > > >> > > >> >> It also displays their hatred > >> >> of people quite explicitly too... > >> > > >> > I disagree. > >> ====================== > >> I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee > >> that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That > >> is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. > > > > That is not the example you just claimed demonstrated vegan > > hatred of people. The bpg posts you now refer to don't show > > that all vegans hate people just that some vegans hate some > > people. > ======================== > His post is just another in a long line of hate filled posts by > vegans. It wasn't a hate filled post. > It's part of the religion apparently. > > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> That you > >> >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you > >> >> >> too... > >> >> > > >> >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. > >> >> > Raising > >> >> > animals > >> >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > >> >> ============================== > >> >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. > >> > > >> > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree > >> > with. > >> > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. > >> ================== > >> No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as > >> interchangable. > > > > By the same token one would expect them to see different races > > of people as interchangable, which is of course the very > > antithesis > > of racism. > ======================= > Try reading back posts by many here on usenet. read all about > the chinks, gooks, > jews, etc that has been posted by hate-filled vegans. I'm not saying that there are no racist vegans but I do think that vegans are less prone to racism then non-vegans. Firstly because veganism tends to be associated more with the political left for whom anti-racism is another hobby horse. Secondly because the anti-speciesism movement owes so many of its ideas to the anti-racism movement. > > > >> >> You should > >> >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to > >> >> slaves > >> >> and > >> >> death camps all the time making just such claims... > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, > >> >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your > >> >> >> >> lack > >> >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is > >> >> >> >> showing. > >> >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> <snip> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Dave wrote:
> rick wrote: > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > oups.com... > > > > > > rick wrote: > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > >> oups.com... > > >> > > > >> > rick wrote: > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > >> >> oups.com... > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Karen Winter lied: > > >> >> >> rick wrote: > > >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message > > >> >> >> > oups.com... > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >>rick wrote: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >>How is it racist? > > >> >> >> >>=========== > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her > > >> >> >> > comparisons > > >> >> >> > are black to dogs. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this > > >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of > > >> >> >> every > > >> >> >> ethnic group. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick > > >> >> > to > > >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people > > >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different > > >> >> > meaning > > >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact > > >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. > > >> >> ========================== > > >> >> No, the fact that all > > >> > > > >> > Some > > >> > ===================== > > >> All of them here on usenet. > > > > > > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make these > > > types of comparison. > > ================================= > > Then stick around, or read for comprehension... > > > > here's a few past gems.. > > === > > > > Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" > > Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition > > > > > > Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat > > industry not > > responsible for holocaust? > > > > Francis > > Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev > > === > > > > I don't think humans are more important than any other > > life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this > > statement > > with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted weirdo. > > ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, > > what's the > > difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of > > animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most > > part, > > don't give a damn about other lifeforms. > > Prominus > > Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > How kind of you to save those poor animals > > from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should > > solve > > the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making > > THEM > > into human game reserves and have open season on their > > populations. > > Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then to > > let > > them starve slowly, Marc. > > Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it > > seemed > > like such a good solution. > > Bernie > > Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa > > That shows that some vegans feel that way. You have not > supported your claim that *all* vegans do. > > > > > > >> I've said many times here that I > > >> refer only to usenet vegans. > > >> > > >> >> vegan loons > > >> > > > >> > Advocates > > >> =========================== > > >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their > > >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > > > > > > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but not > > > all of them by any means. > > ======================= > > Just wait awhile... > > > > > > > >> > > > >> >> always compare animals to people > > >> > > > >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? > > >> ======================= > > >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it > > >> too. > > > > > > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. Slaves > > > don't have rights either. > > ====================== > > Really? > > What rights do you think slaves have/had? > > > >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan > > >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are > > >> killing. > > >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and > > >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less > > >> support > > >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people > > >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. > > >> >> Pets are like slaves, > > >> > > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > > >> ==================== > > >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I > > >> responding with several years of posting history about their > > >> comparisions... > > > > > > The statement you replied to was not racist. > > ==================== > > Yes, her claims are... > > She isn't making comparisons between any particular > races of humans. None of the statements made by her > in this thread have been racist. > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> >> the > > >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > > >> > > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > > >> ========================= > > >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with > > >> chickens > > >> in barns is racist and demeaning. > > > > > > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to jews. > > > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the > > > way humans treated humans in the past. > > ============================ > > LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > > She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. She is > comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms > today with the treatment of humans who happened to > be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would > have been just the same whatever the race of people who > had been sent to those camps. She is morally equating the treatment of chickens to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany and to black slaves in the American antebellum south. Whenever this happens, members of those groups are always aggrieved, and rightly so, for the false moral equivalence being alleged by the "aras" ("animal rights assholes"). Jews and American blacks quite reasonably feel that equating the treatment their ancestors suffered to the treatment of animals both trivializes the horrors of their past unjust treatment, and also in some way *does* suggest that they are less than fully human. The "aras" always hastily and in their best PC protest voices insist that they aren't being racist, but the aggrieved groups never really buy the denials, and they shouldn't. At the very least, the comparisons *do* trivialize what Jews and blacks experienced. > > > Hand waving noted... > > > > > > >> It also displays their hatred > > >> of people quite explicitly too... > > > > > > I disagree. > > ====================== > > I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee > > that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That > > is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. > > That is not the example you just claimed demonstrated vegan > hatred of people. The bpg posts you now refer to don't show > that all vegans hate people just that some vegans hate some > people. > > > > > >> > > > >> >> That you > > >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you > > >> >> too... > > >> > > > >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. > > >> > Raising > > >> > animals > > >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > >> ============================== > > >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. > > > > > > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree > > > with. > > > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. > > ================== > > No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as > > interchangable. > > By the same token one would expect them to see different races > of people as interchangable, which is of course the very antithesis > of racism. > > > >> You should > > >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves > > >> and > > >> death camps all the time making just such claims... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, > > >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack > > >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is > > >> >> >> showing. > > >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> <snip> > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
Glorfindel wrote: > Dave wrote: > > Glorfindel wrote: > > >>Dave wrote: > > >><snip> > > >>>Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. Raising animals > >>>for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > >><snip> > > >>I would argue this, for I do believe pet ownership is morally > >>equivalent to slavery, > > > I disagree because in there is a major difference in > > motivation and consequence. People generally buy pets > > for companionship and treat them well. People who > > buy slaves generally do so for selfish reasons so they > > can live off the work of others. > > I understand your point, but I would respond with a "yes > and no." First, you have distinguish between people who > buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals > from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from > the street. The mindset is very different. While rescue > can go terribly wrong and turn into hoarding, in general > rescuers or adopters do it for companionship and to benefit > the animal. People who work in rescue usually do regard > the animals they place as beings for whom they act as > guardians, and they usually have fairly stringent requirements > to adopt, including a home visit, a certain level of > income so the animal's needs can be met, and welfare > requirements such as keeping the animal inside rather than > outdoors, proper vet care, and a contract which allows the > rescue to take the animal back if the group does not think > the animal is being cared for properly. All of my companion > animals have come from this kind of rescue, or my own rescue > efforts, and I have also worked with rescue groups like these. > > Rescues disapprove of buying animals for several reasons. One > is that people will deliberately breed purebreds and charge > high prices for them (hundreds to thousands of dollars) while > millions of less fortunate shelter animals die. Another is > that the few pet stores which still sell cats and dogs often > buy them from puppy or kitten mills which mistreat the breeding > stock and produce sick puppies and kittens. Virtually all > birds and small animals in pet stores are bred this way. If > you go on a website like the Gabriel Foundation for parrots, > you can read about some of the horrible things done to highly > intelligent and social birds to provide them to the pet trade. > To people who buy animals, they are commodities, products. I've > had people ask me why I would pay a hundred dollars to have > a tumor removed from a rat, when I could buy another one for > less than ten dollars. Do you think there are many people who would ask that question wrt a dog. I suggest most dog owners would understand. > Also, animals are bought for various kinds > of work -- herding, guarding, carting, and so on -- and a > lonely dog left by himself to guard a city lot is certainly > not bought for companionship or treated particularly well. There > are many dogs who end up as fighting dogs, living alarm systems, > status symbols of some kind, and so on. An amazing number of them > end up starving to death in somebody's back yard or basement. > > As long as animals are legally property and can be bought and > sold, there will be far too many who are seen as no *more* > than property, to be used for human purposes and discarded > when they become inconvenient or useless to their owners. The > goal must be to make all animals adoptees, not products. > People who buy animals do it for the same selfish reasons > people buy slaves -- anything from a worker to be worked > to death, starved, and replaced, to a beautiful status symbol > to be pampered and to display one's wealth and taste. I hadn't really considered these aspects of the pet industry but I still believe that in pracise most pet owners or at least most dog and cat owners act more like guardians than owners. > > > >>and raising animals for meat as it is > >>done in modern factory farms is equivalent to treatment of > >>humans in concentration camps or poorly-run prison camps. > > > > I have some sympathy for this view. I abhor the way animals > > are treated as little more than production machines in many > > intensive systems. > > > >>It > >>is not equivalent to genocide, because the purpose is not to > >>eliminate a species or breed of animal. It is immoral, IMO, > >>for two main reasons: the welfare concerns WART > > > what does WART stand for? > > An overactive spellchecker. I meant WRT -- with regard to.That makes sense. I thought that might be the case. > > the way the > >>animals are treated, and the more basic moral issue of treating > >>subject-of-a-life beings with inherent value as mere economic > >>products, as things, as property. > > > I believe the vast majority of pets are treated with far more > > consideration then mere, economic products, things, property. > > Some food animals are too. > > Yes, some food animals are, particularly ones who produce > "renewable resources" like eggs or milk. I *have* known > a person who bred and slaughtered his own goats, but I > could never understand how someone could do it. Then > there are those poor kids who raise animals for 4H and have > to sell them for slaughter. I can't imagine it. On the > other hand, I've known people with a small flock of free-living > rescue chickens kept for eggs, or my grandmother's little > Jersey cow who was as much a companion animal as a milk-producing > machine. > > If we could eliminate factory farming, it would not satisfy > animal rights objections to animals as products, but it would > be a great welfare benefit. It's a good interim goal on which > almost everyone can agree. Yes. > >>The moral issue for both pets > >>and "food" animals is the same: treating a being who should be > >>treated as a "he" or "she" -- even if not a being with the same > >>kind of rights as a normal adult human -- as an "it", a thing, > >>a mere piece of property which has only contingent worth based > >>on its utilitarian value to humans. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Buying animals :( was typical racist spew from vegans...)
John Wesley wrote: > In article >, says... > > First, you have distinguish between people who > > buy pets, and people who rescue or adopt companion animals > > from shelters or rescue groups, or take in a stray from > > the street. > > > > I think you're dead wrong. If someone gets a dog for free they will > think "Hey if he gets sick and dies I'll just get another one for > free." Would they though? A little further down you menton that you spent $398 at an emergency vet. Surely it would have been cheaper to buy a new dog but because you conisder him a friend rather than simply a piece of property you decided to spend the money to keep him alive. Would you have felt any differently if your dog had been free? > > Most shelters charge a fee. My purebread dog was not much more than > what they charge at the local pound for an adoption. > > I just spent $398 on my dog at the emergency vet. I've spent over $300 > on vaccinations, worm checks, etc. Hes a purebread dog and yes I bought > him. I have alegries and he is one of the breeds I have found that I'm > not alergic too. I had pound puppies when I was a kid and so did my > wife. I'd do it again if I could find a dog there that I wasn't > allergic too. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Leif Erikson wrote:
<snip> > She is morally equating the treatment of chickens to the treatment of > Jews in Nazi Germany and to black slaves in the American antebellum > south. Among other groups. > Whenever this happens, some > members of those groups are always > aggrieved, and rightly so, for the false moral equivalence being > alleged by the "aras" ("animal rights assholes"). Some > Jews and American > blacks quite reasonably feel that equating the treatment their > ancestors suffered to the treatment of animals both trivializes the > horrors of their past unjust treatment, and also in some way *does* > suggest that they are less than fully human. The "aras" always hastily > and in their best PC protest voices insist that they aren't being > racist, but the aggrieved groups never really buy the denials, and they > shouldn't. At the very least, the comparisons *do* trivialize what > Jews and blacks experienced. In your opinion. You ignore the fact that some members of the groups involved *also* put forth the comparisons with what has happened to members of their own group. Because they are sensitive to the injustices done to their own ancestors and relatives, they are sensitive to similar injustices done to other groups, including non-human groups. <snip> |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Leif Erikson wrote: > Dave wrote: > > rick wrote: > > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > oups.com... > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > >> oups.com... > > > >> > > > > >> > rick wrote: > > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > >> >> oups.com... > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Karen Winter lied: > > > >> >> >> rick wrote: > > > >> >> >> > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > >> >> >> > oups.com... > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >>rick wrote: > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >>>snip the racist spew from Glorfindel..... > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >>How is it racist? > > > >> >> >> >>=========== > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > Comparing slaves, which in this country and in her > > > >> >> >> > comparisons > > > >> >> >> > are black to dogs. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> There were slaves of other ethnicities even in "this > > > >> >> >> country," and historically there have been slaves of > > > >> >> >> every > > > >> >> >> ethnic group. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Even if this weren't the case it is preposterous of Rick > > > >> >> > to > > > >> >> > be accusing you of racism. The sentence "Black people > > > >> >> > were treated like dogs" has a completely different > > > >> >> > meaning > > > >> >> > from the sentence "black people are like dogs". The fact > > > >> >> > that Rick can't see the difference speaks volumes. > > > >> >> ========================== > > > >> >> No, the fact that all > > > >> > > > > >> > Some > > > >> > ===================== > > > >> All of them here on usenet. > > > > > > > > Apart from Glorfindel I can't remember seeing anyone make these > > > > types of comparison. > > > ================================= > > > Then stick around, or read for comprehension... > > > > > > here's a few past gems.. > > > === > > > > > > Holocaust: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale" > > > Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition > > > > > > > > > Unless the Oxford dictionary is mistaken, how is the meat > > > industry not > > > responsible for holocaust? > > > > > > Francis > > > Sep 16 2004, 12:42 pm aaev > > > === > > > > > > I don't think humans are more important than any other > > > life form. It's amazing how 99% of the people regard this > > > statement > > > with shock, and accuse me of being some sort of twisted weirdo. > > > ahahahahaha. What a bunch of peabrains. In this respect, > > > what's the > > > difference between genocide of humans, and daily genocide of > > > animals??? How can I feel for humans when they, for the most > > > part, > > > don't give a damn about other lifeforms. > > > Prominus > > > Aug 21 1999, 2:00 am afv > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > How kind of you to save those poor animals > > > from death by putting a bullet through them. Maybe we should > > > solve > > > the Third World's overpopulation and hunger problem by making > > > THEM > > > into human game reserves and have open season on their > > > populations. > > > Wouldn't it be better to put a bullet through their heads then to > > > let > > > them starve slowly, Marc. > > > Wait . . . I think thats called genocide. Damn. . . and it > > > seemed > > > like such a good solution. > > > Bernie > > > Sep 15 1998, 2:00 am tpa > > > > That shows that some vegans feel that way. You have not > > supported your claim that *all* vegans do. > > > > > > > > > >> I've said many times here that I > > > >> refer only to usenet vegans. > > > >> > > > >> >> vegan loons > > > >> > > > > >> > Advocates > > > >> =========================== > > > >> Loons. Advocates don't make absurd claims that demean their > > > >> position with lys, delusions, and propaganda... > > > > > > > > I have seen some of the vegans here make absurd claims but not > > > > all of them by any means. > > > ======================= > > > Just wait awhile... > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> >> always compare animals to people > > > >> > > > > >> > Well they do have some things in common don't they? > > > >> ======================= > > > >> Not rights. You know it, I know, and vegan loons here know it > > > >> too. > > > > > > > > Rights are a social construct, not an inherent property. Slaves > > > > don't have rights either. > > > ====================== > > > Really? > > > > What rights do you think slaves have/had? > > > > > >> Animals cannot and will not have rights as long as vegan > > > >> loons only focus on animals that they think others are > > > >> killing. > > > >> Their lack of concern for animals that die for thier diet and > > > >> entertainment prove that they don't belive in, much less > > > >> support > > > >> animal rights. Trying to comapre rights for animals to people > > > >> that have had their rights violated is bigotry. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >> speaks volumes to their idiocy. > > > >> >> Pets are like slaves, > > > >> > > > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > > > >> ==================== > > > >> Yes, it is in the context that vegan loons here use it. I > > > >> responding with several years of posting history about their > > > >> comparisions... > > > > > > > > The statement you replied to was not racist. > > > ==================== > > > Yes, her claims are... > > > > She isn't making comparisons between any particular > > races of humans. None of the statements made by her > > in this thread have been racist. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> meat industry is like killing jews in the holocaust. > > > >> > > > > >> > Is not a racist statement. > > > >> ========================= > > > >> Yes, it is. Equating jews dying in the holocaust with > > > >> chickens > > > >> in barns is racist and demeaning. > > > > > > > > It is not racist. Glorfindel is not comparing Chickens to jews. > > > > She is comparing the way humans treat chickens with the > > > > way humans treated humans in the past. > > > ============================ > > > LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > > > > She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. She is > > comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms > > today with the treatment of humans who happened to > > be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would > > have been just the same whatever the race of people who > > had been sent to those camps. > > She is morally equating the treatment of chickens to the treatment of > Jews in Nazi Germany And all other people of whatever race who suffered similar misfortunes. > and to black slaves in the American antebellum > south. And all other slaves of whatever race. > Whenever this happens, members of those groups are always > aggrieved, and rightly so, for the false moral equivalence being > alleged by the "aras" ("animal rights assholes"). Jews and American > blacks quite reasonably feel that equating the treatment their > ancestors suffered to the treatment of animals both trivializes the > horrors of their past unjust treatment, and also in some way *does* > suggest that they are less than fully human. If they paid attention to the context they would see that the point is not to trivialize the horrors of the past but to emphacize the horrors of the present. In making these comparisons Glorfindel does not suggest that blacks or jews are less than fully human. She suggests effectively that animals deserve the same moral consideration that we grant to humans of whatever race. > The "aras" always hastily > and in their best PC protest voices insist that they aren't being > racist, They aren't. > but the aggrieved groups never really buy the denials, If I were black or a Jewish I would consider the above statement to be a slur on my intelligence. > and they > shouldn't. At the very least, the comparisons *do* trivialize what > Jews and blacks experienced. > > > > > > > Hand waving noted... > > > > > > > > > >> It also displays their hatred > > > >> of people quite explicitly too... > > > > > > > > I disagree. > > > ====================== > > > I don't. Didn't you just see bpg posts with the implicit glee > > > that hunters were killing each other instead of animals? That > > > is/has been a typical vegan spew every hunting season.. > > > > That is not the example you just claimed demonstrated vegan > > hatred of people. The bpg posts you now refer to don't show > > that all vegans hate people just that some vegans hate some > > people. > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> >> That you > > > >> >> can excuse this ideological nonsense says alot about you > > > >> >> too... > > > >> > > > > >> > Pet ownership is *not* morally equivalent to slavery. > > > >> > Raising > > > >> > animals > > > >> > for meat is *not* morally equivalent to genocide. > > > >> ============================== > > > >> LOL I think that that is what I have been saying. > > > > > > > > It is the part of what you have been saying that I can agree > > > > with. > > > > The idea that it is racist to make such analogies is absurd. > > > ================== > > > No, it is not previsly because they see animals and people as > > > interchangable. > > > > By the same token one would expect them to see different races > > of people as interchangable, which is of course the very antithesis > > of racism. > > > > > >> You should > > > >> tell that to the vegan LOONS. They comapre animals to slaves > > > >> and > > > >> death camps all the time making just such claims... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> >> How about the blond, blue-eyed British, > > > >> >> >> German, and Irish slaves of the Roman Empire? Your lack > > > >> >> >> of historical education ( not to mention grammar) is > > > >> >> >> showing. > > > >> >> >> It is the legal status of slaves which is analogous to > > > >> >> >> the > > > >> >> >> legal status of animals: both are chattel property. > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> <snip> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
"Glorfindel" > wrote in message ... > rick wrote: > > <snip> >>>>LOL By comparing chickens to Jews... > >>>She is not comparing chickens to Jews per se. > > Correct, I am not. > >> =========================== >> Yes, she is. You cannot seperate the words from what she >> says. > >> She is >>>comparing the treatment of chickens in factory farms >>>today with the treatment of humans who happened to >>>be Jewish in concentration camps. The argument would >>>have been just the same whatever the race of people who >>>had been sent to those camps. > > Again, people like rick either do not know, or choose to > ignore, the many other examples of concentration camps > and poorly-run prison camps in history. They also ignore > the other groups held in the German camps, which included > political prisoners, Poles and other Slavic people, Gypsies, > homosexuals, and so on. ======================= No, it's you that is ignoring history. They didn't like some other peoples, but they didn't go to massive lengths to rid the world of all the other groups like they want with Jews. A concentration camp/prison camp > could be run by the British during the Boer War, by Soviets > during Stalin's regime, by Americans at Andersonville or > Bosque Redondo, and by most other regimes at one time or > another in most countries. ========================= Which wasn't genocide, if fact or your fiction. > > It is not bigotry or racism to say that the treatment of > those held in such facilities is, and was, immoral, whether > the victims are human or non-human. > ===================================== LOL Now you're just racist enough to know how Jews and blacks should feel about how you equate them to animals? Thanks for even more proof of your bigotry, killer... > <snip> |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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typical racist spew from vegans...
Dave wrote:
<snip> > Her statements are certainly not racist or bigotted and IMO they > are not demeaning to people either. They could perhaps be > described as melodramatic. Yes, such statements do seem melodramatic in cold print. It is different if one can imagine what it would feel like physically and emotionally to be in the same situation, or can imagine a loved companion dog or cat in the same situation. I won't go into lurid details, because I'm fairly sure you know exactly what goes on in factory farming. Obviously, every species and each individual is different, but pain is pain and sickness is sickness, and boredom is boredom. <snip> |
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