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| Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal! |
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On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 Goo declaired:
>Mr Harrison explained: >> Before I could believe that, you would need to explain *why* things >> developed to be as they are, and *how* God could have done it a >> better way. > >There is no "god" No one could know that Goo. People can know if he does, but no one can know if he does not. But this is yet another fact that you are too stupid to understand. |
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pearl wrote:
> "S. Maizlich" > > > I have NO time for clueless psychos. > > Faking quotes, Faking nothing, you clueless psycho whore. You know NOTHING about statistics, or any other math, and you know nothing of science. Foot-rubbing is unscientific. |
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****wit David Harrison reflexively lied:
> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 Leif Erikson wrote: > > >>****wit David Harrison reflexively lied: > > >>> Before I could believe that, you would need to explain *why* things >>>developed to be as they are, and *how* God could have done it a >>>better way. >> >>There is no "god" > > > No one could know that Prove there is one. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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"Autymn D. C." > wrote > > Prove that overcrowding is cruel. Birds in nature frequently crowd closely together. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Dutch wrote:
> "Autymn D. C." > wrote > >>Prove that overcrowding is cruel. > > > Birds in nature frequently crowd closely together. Look at last summer's hit movie March of the Penguins if you want to see birds crowding together. Many birds, particularly flu-vulnerable ducks, do indeed flock together closely in natu http://www.startribune.com/stonline/...bird1103.l.jpg |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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"S. Maizlich" > wrote > Dutch wrote: >> "Autymn D. C." > wrote >> >>>Prove that overcrowding is cruel. >> >> >> Birds in nature frequently crowd closely together. > Look at last summer's hit movie March of the Penguins if you want to see > birds crowding together. Wasn't that a great flick? Even in warm climates they crowd together on rocky outcroppings. > Many birds, particularly flu-vulnerable ducks, do indeed flock together > closely in natu > http://www.startribune.com/stonline/...bird1103.l.jpg Crows, which forage in small groups during the day, gather at night into large flocks. I see them in one industrial area around here lined up side by side by the hundreds on building rooftops. They love the closeness. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Autymn D. C. wrote:
> ant and dec wrote: >> Autymn D. C. wrote: >>> ant and dec wrote: >>>> You talk absolute ********. I suggest you seek mental help. Diputs woc. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection >>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/********#Talking_******** > > You say from no understanding of English but muttspeak and doltspeak. > You talk absolute ********. I suggest you seek mental help. Diputs woc. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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pearl wrote:
> "S. Maizlich" > wrote in message nk.net... > > >>>No. He merely shows that there is no science behind >> >>your claim. > > > Willett rejects scientific research and posits his opinion. > > There's something I have to be getting on with now, > so, sorry, willett, ball. Maybe someone else will play. > Your surrender is acknowledged. I do not reject scientific research, I refuse to be brow-beaten by quotations and citations. I will delete them unread whenever I find somebody insulting my debating prowess by posting huge and barely relevant quotations rather than advancing an argument themselves in their own words. The correct format is to debate, make your point in full in your own words directly addressing the point in contention then possibly quote and give citation and/or URL while summing up why that quotation or citation is relevant. In contrast you seem to prefer to express contradiction and/or trade insults then make a huge paste of something that may seem relevant to somebody in possession of your mindset but seems rather irrelevant to anybody else. I also see absolutely no reason to feel any guilt whatsoever for expressing *my opinions* in a newsgroup. What the **** else are they for? -- Martin Willett http://mwillett.org |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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"Martin Willett" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote: > > Willett rejects scientific research and posits his opinion. > > > > There's something I have to be getting on with now, > > so, sorry, willett, ball. Maybe someone else will play. > > > > Your surrender is acknowledged. That you're a delusional timewaster is established. > I do not reject scientific research, I refuse to be brow-beaten by > quotations and citations. I will delete them unread Uhuh. Guess what happens to your opinions... <...> |
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stupid lesley blabbered:
> "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > pearl wrote: > > > > Willett rejects scientific research and posits his opinion. > > > > > > There's something I have to be getting on with now, > > > so, sorry, willett, ball. Maybe someone else will play. > > > > > > > Your surrender is acknowledged. > > That I'm a delusional timewaster (as well as an anti-scientific foot-rubbing whore in Cork, Ireland) is > established. Exactly. |
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"Leif Erikson" >
Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html The Socialised Psychopath or Sociopath http://tinyurl.com/92d7k |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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> wrote in message oups.com...
> pearl wrote: > > "S. Maizlich" > > > > > Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > > What else did you expect from meat industry shills? Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message oups.com... > > pearl wrote: > > > "S. Maizlich" > > > > > > > Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > > > > What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > > Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos to come to these lists to lie, forge and spread their stupidity is too much because these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of what they are getting paid for. I do not consider myself a radical on the subject of vegetarianism and have arrived at some of my values and decisions over a period of time. I came to this list (alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian) in hopes of finding like minded people with whom I could explore the issues that have been bothering me. I no longer consume meat because of my aversion to the cruel and unsanitary way animals are raised and butchered. I did not expect the filth and personal attacks that I got from meat industry shills just because of my values and conclusions. Naturally, I gave as good or better as I got from them. I assure you that I am not swayed by the garbage they post and forge under many aliases. The meat industry shills should not even be posting to this list. > > > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html |
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> wrote in message oups.com...
> pearl wrote: > > > wrote in message oups.com... > > > pearl wrote: > > > > "S. Maizlich" > > > > > > > > > Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > > > > > > What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > > > > Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos to come to these > lists to lie, forge and spread their stupidity is too much because > these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of what they > are getting paid for. I do not consider myself a radical on the subject > of vegetarianism and have arrived at some of my values and decisions > over a period of time. I came to this list > (alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian) in hopes of finding like minded people > with whom I could explore the issues that have been bothering me. I no > longer consume meat because of my aversion to the cruel and unsanitary > way animals are raised and butchered. I did not expect the filth and > personal attacks that I got from meat industry shills just because of > my values and conclusions. Naturally, I gave as good or better as I got > from them. I assure you that I am not swayed by the garbage they post > and forge under many aliases. The meat industry shills should not even > be posting to this list. "these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of what they are getting paid for. " Ain't that a fact. We should be paying them! lol. It's good to see you here, er bpgclm. I don't agree with some of your views, but I think that your heart is in the right place. > > > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message oups.com... > >>pearl wrote: >> > wrote in message oups.com... >>> >>>>pearl wrote: >>>> >>>>>"S. Maizlich" > >>>>> >>>>>Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. >>>> >>>>What else did you expect from meat industry shills? >>> >>>Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. >> >>Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos to come to these >>lists to lie, forge and spread their stupidity is too much because >>these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of what they >>are getting paid for. I do not consider myself a radical on the subject >>of vegetarianism and have arrived at some of my values and decisions >>over a period of time. I came to this list >>(alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian) in hopes of finding like minded people >>with whom I could explore the issues that have been bothering me. I no >>longer consume meat because of my aversion to the cruel and unsanitary >>way animals are raised and butchered. I did not expect the filth and >>personal attacks that I got from meat industry shills just because of >>my values and conclusions. Naturally, I gave as good or better as I got >>from them. I assure you that I am not swayed by the garbage they post >>and forge under many aliases. The meat industry shills should not even >>be posting to this list. > > > "these meat industry shills No such posters here. |
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> wrote: > > pearl wrote: > > > > wrote in message oups.com... > >> > >>>pearl wrote: > >>> > >>>>"S. Maizlich" > > >>>> > >>>>Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > >>> > >>>What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > >> > >>Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > > > > > Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos > > No one is paying me anything for what I write here, > cocksucker. You and lesley just don't know what the > **** you're talking about. You can't explain your > irrational fear of meat. Meat has been part of the > human diet from the beginning. As usual, you are confusing me with your mother. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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> wrote in message oups.com... > pearl wrote: >> > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > pearl wrote: >> > > "S. Maizlich" > >> > > >> > > Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. >> > >> > What else did you expect from meat industry shills? >> >> Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos to come to > these > lists to lie, forge and spread their stupidity is too much > because > these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of > what they > are getting paid for. =========================== ROTFLMAO Now you're forging my posts, eh hypocrite? I told you at least a week ago how great a job you're doing in showing the ignorance, delusions, and lys of veganism. So using your logic, since I said it first, you are now forging posts. Thanks again for showing the willful ignorance, stupidity and utter hypocrisy of usenet vegans, killer. Again, keep up the good work!! I do not consider myself a radical on the subject > of vegetarianism and have arrived at some of my values and > decisions > over a period of time. ============================= LOL Then you are just this stupoid and insane naturally, eh fool? I came to this list > (alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian) in hopes of finding like minded > people > with whom I could explore the issues that have been bothering > me. I no > longer consume meat because of my aversion to the cruel and > unsanitary > way animals are raised and butchered. ================================ And you give no thought to the brutal, inhy=umane deaths you cause instead, eh hypocrite? Thanks for again showing that conecern for animals is not your agenda. I did not expect the filth and > personal attacks that I got from meat industry shills just > because of > my values and conclusions. Naturally, I gave as good or better > as I got > from them. I assure you that I am not swayed by the garbage > they post > and forge under many aliases. The meat industry shills should > not even > be posting to this list. =========================== Actually fool, the only ones here that look like they get paid for spewing lys are you, Lys and your ilk. You continue to post sites that are completely discredited, outright liars, and propagada spin machines. The sites I point people to are typically edu and gov sites that have *real* data and facts. Nit the BS that you like to spew. Besides, you haven't posted anything to really defend your ignorant views of vegnism, or to discredit the fact that eating meat can cause fewer deaths than you now cause, hypocrite. But again, keep up the good work, fool. Your making the case for loonyism much better than I can... >> >> > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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pearl wrote:
> "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > >>pearl wrote: > > >>>Willett rejects scientific research and posits his opinion. >>> >>>There's something I have to be getting on with now, >>>so, sorry, willett, ball. Maybe someone else will play. >>> >> >>Your surrender is acknowledged. > > > That you're a delusional timewaster is established. > > >>I do not reject scientific research, I refuse to be brow-beaten by >>quotations and citations. I will delete them unread > > > Uhuh. Guess what happens to your opinions... > If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point in debate. I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but all you offered was quotes and citations, that isn't a debate, it isn't illuminating, it is merely annoying. What is so hard about expressing your own opinions and addressing the points made directly? Why this crazy and counter-productive strategy of posting huge and barely relevant quotes? Which was doubly stupid after I told you not to do it. Don't you value your own ideas? If you don't how can you expect anybody else to respect them? Nobody was asking for citations or quotations, I was specifically asking for you not to do that and still you did. Have you no powers of debate? If I was marking your essays I'd give them an F, excessive quotations without explanation of the relevance of the material to the issue under debate coupled with single line assertions. You repeatedly stated that humans are frugivores, which given the conventional meaning of the words 'humans', 'are' and 'frugivores' is patently not true. You ignored my assertion that frugivores cannot live outside tropical or sub tropical forests, you neither acknowledged it nor refuted it. You refused to rise to my challenge to show examples of herbivores cooperating in food collection. Come on, a single counter-example in the entire animal kingdom could have destroyed my case and you could not offer one for either assertion. I stood there leading with my chin and you couldn't land a telling blow, and now you have stopped trying to debate. I don't think I am being unreasonable in claiming victory by technical knockout. Cue psychobabble about men treating everything as a fight or ****ing contest. -- Martin Willett http://mwillett.org |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> wrote: > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > wrote: > >> > >>>pearl wrote: > >>> > >>> > > wrote in message oups.com... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>pearl wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>"S. Maizlich" > > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > >>>>> > >>>>>What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > >>>> > >>>>Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > >>> > >>> > >>>Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos > >> > >>No one is paying me anything for what I write here, > >>cocksucker. You and lesley just don't know what the > >>**** you're talking about. You can't explain your > >>irrational fear of meat. Meat has been part of the > >>human diet from the beginning. > > > > > > As usual, you are confusing me > > You're easily confused. Before you do dirt, you shit eating meat industry shill, be prepared to eat some. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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So says (rick==Dutch==shithead) the meat industry shill.
rick wrote: > > wrote in message > oups.com... > > pearl wrote: > >> > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > pearl wrote: > >> > > "S. Maizlich" > > >> > > > >> > > Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > >> > > >> > What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > >> > >> Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > > > Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos to come to > > these > > lists to lie, forge and spread their stupidity is too much > > because > > these meat industry shills accomplish exactly the opposite of > > what they > > are getting paid for. > =========================== > ROTFLMAO Now you're forging my posts, eh hypocrite? I told you > at least a week ago how great a job you're doing in showing the > ignorance, delusions, and lys of veganism. So using your logic, > since I said it first, you are now forging posts. Thanks again > for showing the willful ignorance, stupidity and utter hypocrisy > of usenet vegans, killer. Again, keep up the good work!! > > > > I do not consider myself a radical on the subject > > of vegetarianism and have arrived at some of my values and > > decisions > > over a period of time. > ============================= > LOL Then you are just this stupoid and insane naturally, eh > fool? > > I came to this list > > (alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian) in hopes of finding like minded > > people > > with whom I could explore the issues that have been bothering > > me. I no > > longer consume meat because of my aversion to the cruel and > > unsanitary > > way animals are raised and butchered. > ================================ > And you give no thought to the brutal, inhy=umane deaths you > cause instead, eh hypocrite? Thanks for again showing that > conecern for animals is not your agenda. > > > I did not expect the filth and > > personal attacks that I got from meat industry shills just > > because of > > my values and conclusions. Naturally, I gave as good or better > > as I got > > from them. I assure you that I am not swayed by the garbage > > they post > > and forge under many aliases. The meat industry shills should > > not even > > be posting to this list. > =========================== > Actually fool, the only ones here that look like they get paid > for spewing lys are you, Lys and your ilk. You continue to post > sites that are completely discredited, outright liars, and > propagada spin machines. The sites I point people to are > typically edu and gov sites that have *real* data and facts. Nit > the BS that you like to spew. Besides, you haven't posted > anything to really defend your ignorant views of vegnism, or to > discredit the fact that eating meat can cause fewer deaths than > you now cause, hypocrite. But again, keep up the good work, > fool. Your making the case for loonyism much better than I > can... > > > >> > >> > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html > > |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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"Martin Willett" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote: > > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... <..> > If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point > in debate. > > I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but > all you offered was quotes and citations, Scientific research. No one is interested in opinions alone here. > You repeatedly stated that humans are frugivores, which given the > conventional meaning of the words 'humans', 'are' and 'frugivores' is > patently not true. http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm . > You ignored my assertion that frugivores cannot live outside tropical or > sub tropical forests, you neither acknowledged it nor refuted it. False. I said that these days there's nothing to prevent most people from being vegan. IIRC, you basically agreed. > You refused to rise to my challenge to show examples of herbivores > cooperating in food collection. False. You blithely dismissed the evidence given. > Come on, a single counter-example in the entire animal kingdom could > have destroyed my case and you could not offer one for either assertion. False. Suggest you go back and actually *read* my post. |
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lesley the pox-ridden foot-rubbing Irish whore in Cork lied:
> "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > pearl wrote: > > > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > <..> > > If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point > > in debate. > > > > I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but > > all you offered was quotes and citations, > > Scientific research. Nope - PSEUDO-scientific horseshit. > > You repeatedly stated that humans are frugivores, which given the > > conventional meaning of the words 'humans', 'are' and 'frugivores' is > > patently not true. > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm . Rubbish. > > You ignored my assertion that frugivores cannot live outside tropical or > > sub tropical forests, you neither acknowledged it nor refuted it. > > False. No, TRUE - you didn't refute it, and you certainly didn't acknowledge it. > > You refused to rise to my challenge to show examples of herbivores > > cooperating in food collection. > > False. You blithely dismissed the evidence No evidence; mere anecdotes. |
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> wrote: > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>pearl wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > wrote in message oups.com... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>pearl wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>"S. Maizlich" > > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>What else did you expect from meat industry shills? > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Nothing but sick cruel perversion from that crew. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Whatever the meat industry is paying these sickos > > > >> > > > >>No one is paying me anything for what I write here, > > > >>cocksucker. You and lesley just don't know what the > > > >>**** you're talking about. You can't explain your > > > >>irrational fear of meat. Meat has been part of the > > > >>human diet from the beginning. > > > > > > > > > > > > As usual, you are confusing me > > > > > > You're easily confused. > > > > Before you do dirt, > > **** off, you limp-wristed little ****. So says (rick==Dutch==Erikson==shithead) the meat industry shill. |
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> lesley the pox-ridden foot-rubbing Irish whore in Cork lied: So says (rick==Dutch==Erikson==shithead) the meat industry shill. > > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > > pearl wrote: > > > > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > <..> > > > If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point > > > in debate. > > > > > > I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but > > > all you offered was quotes and citations, > > > > Scientific research. > > Nope - PSEUDO-scientific horseshit. > > > > You repeatedly stated that humans are frugivores, which given the > > > conventional meaning of the words 'humans', 'are' and 'frugivores' is > > > patently not true. > > > > http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm . > > Rubbish. > > > > > You ignored my assertion that frugivores cannot live outside tropical or > > > sub tropical forests, you neither acknowledged it nor refuted it. > > > > False. > > No, TRUE - you didn't refute it, and you certainly didn't acknowledge > it. > > > > You refused to rise to my challenge to show examples of herbivores > > > cooperating in food collection. > > > > False. You blithely dismissed the evidence > > No evidence; mere anecdotes. |
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Would you like to be eaten?
pearl wrote: > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > pearl wrote: > > > "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > <..> > > If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point > > in debate. > > > > I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but > > all you offered was quotes and citations, > > Scientific research. No one is interested in opinions alone here. The question is how does a lay person establish the truth from a sea of unmoderated information such as the internet. One possibility is to do an in depth study searching for and carefully scrutinizing *all* the available relevant information in an objective manner. Realistically this process is likely to be excessively time consuming so I generally prefer to rely on authorities who appear to have been through the above process themselves. Now perhaps I am being unfair here but it looks to me like you generally do neither but post information that as Martin astutely puts it is "more for support than illumination". Forming an opinion on the efficacy of animal experimentation or the nutrional merits of meat based on sources referenced by animal rights literature is a little like giving a verdict in a criminal trial entirely on the basis of the prosecution's evidence. |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Would you like to be eaten?
> > Why be Thankful? M. Willett BA, 2006, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, > alt.food.vegan, > > What do you mean by be thankful? I do not believe in anything that needs > to be thanked or appeased for the survival of my species. If I am not > grateful or thankful the reality is the same. Mankind has survived. Not > eating animals is not paying back any debt. Not eating animals earns us > no credit. There is no balance sheet. There is no avenging god or alien > butcher from hell going to make us pay for our sins. If you don't eat > meat all that happens is you don't eat meat. > > I don't believe in gods or karma or some Earth Spirit, and if you do > believe in such things that belief does not make it so, for you or for > anybody. > > If you don't want to eat animals that is a choice you are free to make > but don't expect to be treated as a heroine for trying to impose your > morality and your reasoning on the rest of humanity. Who said anything about imposing? Imposing is when you attempt to vandalise, blackmail or intimadate people. You should stop equating expressions of one's opinions with attempts to impose one's will upon others. > Treating others as you would like to be treated makes sense when you are > dealing with agents capable of understanding your behaviour and > reciprocating. Animals don't understand and cannot reciprocate. The > universe does not understand and cannot reciprocate either. The same argument could be made of young children. The suggestion is that the rationale for apparant consideration of other humans is mere self interest - nothing to do with their emotional and physical needs that are equally as important as your own. It is a very selfish philosophy if you don't mind me saying so. > > What goes around goes around and what comes around comes around. You > can't make your life better by propitious sacrifices to an uncaring > universe. Sacrificing eating animal products doesn't buy you any favours > except with the minority of people who think like you do. If you don't > eat meat you are just as likely to have your carrots nibbled by rabbits > and your lettuces chewed by slugs. > > Lifestyles truly worth emulating don't need to be promoted. If your > lifestyle was truly superior people would notice. Not necessarily. The point is the positive aspect of meat eating, eg the fact that most people find the experience enjoyable is highly obvious whereas the negative aspects are "hidden". Farm animals can lead very good lives where they are free to pursue all their natural behaviours while being provided with food, shelter and care. On marginal land of low utility value they can be a useful means of turning biomass we can't use into biomass that we can. In well managed, organic agriculture they can feed off forage and waste products while providing fertilizer, mechanical power, pest and weed control. Unfortunately this is not the way the majority of the meat in the devoloped world is farmed. Animals are housed intensively, confined to cramped barren areas where their basic freedoms are severely restricted. Generations of selective breeding and other measures to stimulate over production are another serious welfare concern. For example, lameness is a common problem for broiler chickens as their muscle weight grows faster than their skeletons can support. In some cases this leads to death from being unable to reach the water trough. Ammonia and hock burns from squatting in dirty litter are also very common. Similarly for dairy cows the Farm Animal Welfare Council estimates instances of Mastisis at 35 cases and lameness at 54.6 new cases per 100 cows per annum. The system also represents an extremely inefficient use of arable land. Many different figures are given depending on sources but even according to the figures quoted by the US National Cattleman's Beef Association it takes 4.5 kg of grain to produce 1kg of beef from a feedlot. Comparisons concerning fresh water and energy are similarly unfavourable. Meanwhile the animal waste, rather than increasing the fertility of the land is now serving as a major contributor to major environmental problems like acid rain, global warming and water pollution. Even in extensive systems overgrazing is causing significant damage. > There, a proper citation. That should be convincing eh? > > You just want people to beat themselves up about food. Guilt is > unhealthy. If you feel guilt about eating meat don't eat it. But to > force that guilt onto other people is an aggressive act, for want of a > better term I would call it an act of evil. To my way of thinking, modern industrial methods of animal rearing are an absolute scandal and the only reason people are raising animals in such a fashion are because they are being paid to produce cheap meat. Collectively, as consumers, we have the power to stop this simply by boycotting the industry, either in favour of free range organic meat or in favour of all-plant food diets. It is absurd to think that you should consider presenting this case to be an act of evil - simply an attempt to make you feel guilty. After all we are not trying to persuade you to become a conflicted omnivore! > -- > Martin Willett > > > http://mwillett.org |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Would you like to be eaten?
Dave wrote:
>>Why be Thankful? M. Willett BA, 2006, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, >>alt.food.vegan, >> >>What do you mean by be thankful? I do not believe in anything that needs >>to be thanked or appeased for the survival of my species. If I am not >>grateful or thankful the reality is the same. Mankind has survived. Not >>eating animals is not paying back any debt. Not eating animals earns us >>no credit. There is no balance sheet. There is no avenging god or alien >>butcher from hell going to make us pay for our sins. If you don't eat >>meat all that happens is you don't eat meat. >> >>I don't believe in gods or karma or some Earth Spirit, and if you do >>believe in such things that belief does not make it so, for you or for >>anybody. >> >>If you don't want to eat animals that is a choice you are free to make >>but don't expect to be treated as a heroine for trying to impose your >>morality and your reasoning on the rest of humanity. > > > Who said anything about imposing? Imposing is when you attempt > to vandalise, blackmail or intimadate people. You should stop > equating expressions of one's opinions with attempts to impose one's > will upon others. > > >>Treating others as you would like to be treated makes sense when you are >>dealing with agents capable of understanding your behaviour and >>reciprocating. Animals don't understand and cannot reciprocate. The >>universe does not understand and cannot reciprocate either. > > > The same argument could be made of young children. The suggestion > is that the rationale for apparant consideration of other humans is > mere self interest - nothing to do with their emotional and physical > needs that are equally as important as your own. It is a very selfish > philosophy if you don't mind me saying so. The difference is that children can come to reciprocate. Animals cannot reciprocate and will never be able to. Yes, the reason to be polite and civilized and caring is that it is in our best interests. If we all act this way everybody wins. Any system that relies on people going beyond mutually beneficial cooperation into the territory of self-sacrifice will fail when people decide they see no good reason to be selfless. You can't make people care any more than you can make people love you. People have attempted to make other people care, they have invented karma and gods and the afterlife and similar kinds of bullshit to justify acting unselflessly towards people animals and the universe in general. But again you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. It is infinitely better not to lie to people but to treat them as adults and to explain the benefits, and the limits, of mutually beneficial cooperation. > >>What goes around goes around and what comes around comes around. You >>can't make your life better by propitious sacrifices to an uncaring >>universe. Sacrificing eating animal products doesn't buy you any favours >>except with the minority of people who think like you do. If you don't >>eat meat you are just as likely to have your carrots nibbled by rabbits >>and your lettuces chewed by slugs. >> >>Lifestyles truly worth emulating don't need to be promoted. If your >>lifestyle was truly superior people would notice. > > > Not necessarily. The point is the positive aspect of meat eating, > eg the fact that most people find the experience enjoyable is > highly obvious whereas the negative aspects are "hidden". > > Farm animals can lead very good lives where they are free to > pursue all their natural behaviours while being provided with > food, shelter and care. On marginal land of low utility value > they can be a useful means of turning biomass we can't > use into biomass that we can. In well managed, organic > agriculture they can feed off forage and waste products while > providing fertilizer, mechanical power, pest and weed control. I agree totally. > > Unfortunately this is not the way the majority of the meat > in the devoloped world is farmed. Animals are housed > intensively, confined to cramped barren areas where > their basic freedoms are severely restricted. Generations > of selective breeding and other measures to stimulate > over production are another serious welfare concern. > For example, lameness is a common problem for > broiler chickens as their muscle weight grows faster than > their skeletons can support. In some cases this leads > to death from being unable to reach the water trough. > Ammonia and hock burns from squatting in dirty litter > are also very common. Similarly for dairy cows the > Farm Animal Welfare Council estimates instances of > Mastisis at 35 cases and lameness at 54.6 new cases > per 100 cows per annum. > > The system also represents an extremely inefficient use > of arable land. Many different figures are given depending > on sources but even according to the figures quoted by > the US National Cattleman's Beef Association it takes > 4.5 kg of grain to produce 1kg of beef from a feedlot. > Comparisons concerning fresh water and energy are similarly > unfavourable. > > Meanwhile the animal waste, rather than increasing the fertility > of the land is now serving as a major contributor to major > environmental problems like acid rain, global warming and > water pollution. Even in extensive systems overgrazing is > causing significant damage. > I have no arguments with any of that. I do not support factory farming and a cheap-food-at-any-cost policy. > >>There, a proper citation. That should be convincing eh? >> >>You just want people to beat themselves up about food. Guilt is >>unhealthy. If you feel guilt about eating meat don't eat it. But to >>force that guilt onto other people is an aggressive act, for want of a >>better term I would call it an act of evil. > > > To my way of thinking, modern industrial methods of animal > rearing are an absolute scandal and the only reason people > are raising animals in such a fashion are because they are > being paid to produce cheap meat. Collectively, as consumers, > we have the power to stop this simply by boycotting the > industry, either in favour of free range organic meat or in favour > of all-plant food diets. > > It is absurd to think that you should consider presenting this > case to be an act of evil - simply an attempt to make you feel > guilty. After all we are not trying to persuade you to become > a conflicted omnivore! I do not see the connection between opposing cruel farming methods and the promotion of vegetarianism and veganism. If my shoes let in water I don't decide God meant me to go barefoot. The strategy I favour is to take the promotion of globalism and democracy and the rejection of racism and nationalism to its natural conclusion: a global democracy capable of setting decent standards across the board. Without the bogey of foreign competition (if we don't do it those other *******s will) there is no reason why we have to allow cruel or wasteful techniques of food production to continue. If you make ten people feel guilty about meat for every one you get to make a change in their lifestyle you are committing an evil act. You might justify that to yourself by saying they are in denial and you have no sympathy for their plight and they are heartless *******s and you hate them for their hypocrisy ... and so you reveal yourself to be nastier than the carnivores because you are deliberately and consciously inflicting suffering (mental anguish, the pain of a conscience eating away from the inside) on sentient beings with the same capacity to suffer as yourself. Eating meat or milk does not involve deliberately causing suffering whereas trying to convert an omnivore into a veg*n does involve a systematic attempt to cause them distress. You speculate about a chicken's ability to suffer but you absolutely know what kind of suffering you can inflict by making a person choose between bacon and Babe. -- Martin Willett http://mwillett.org |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Would you like to be eaten?
pearl wrote:
> "Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > >>pearl wrote: >> >>>"Martin Willett" > wrote in message ... > > <..> > >>If you are not interested in anybody else's opinions there is no point >>in debate. >> >>I was interested in *your* opinions and how you could defend them but >>all you offered was quotes and citations, > > > Scientific research. No one is interested in opinions alone here. That's just your opinion. It isn't scientific evidence, I can't see your citation. > > >>You repeatedly stated that humans are frugivores, which given the >>conventional meaning of the words 'humans', 'are' and 'frugivores' is >>patently not true. > <snipped unread as promised> You really don't get it, do you? Make your case in your words. I am not interested in following your links, posting such a link is wasting your opportunity to make the case. Every one of my posts contains my words and my ideas with the minimum of input from elsewhere. We are not frugivores. Our ancestors left that way of life behind tens of millions of years ago. No animal can exist as a frugivore except in a forest or near forest environment with year-round fruiting which can only happen in the tropics or sub-tropical regions. Frugivores cannot live in Mediterranean let alone cold temperate regions because there is not enough fruit available for many months of each year. > >>You ignored my assertion that frugivores cannot live outside tropical or >>sub tropical forests, you neither acknowledged it nor refuted it. > > > False. I said that these days there's nothing to prevent most > people from being vegan. IIRC, you basically agreed. There is nothing to stop people being vegans if they choose to be so. Stress on the word _choose_. > > >>You refused to rise to my challenge to show examples of herbivores >>cooperating in food collection. > > > False. You blithely dismissed the evidence given. What you presented was some badly written folksy stuff about squirrels with no scientific credibility, it only seemed to back your case because it was so sloppily written. Squirrels do not cooperate in hiding nuts, they hide nuts and dig up hidden nuts by sense of smell, not always nuts they themselves have buried. You cannot conclude there is *cooperation* just by observing nut stealing without witnessing excessive retribution. Squirrels have a high mortality rate, it makes sense for a squirrel to dig up a buried nut discovered by sense of smell even if it wasn't one he himself buried and it doesn't make sense to get into a fight over a single nut. A strategy that works without any prior or on-going agreement is "bury surplus nuts near where you live, singly, remember where you buried them. If they are there when you need them eat them. If you find other nuts eat them. Don't fight over a single nut, it ain't worth it. Instead fight over the territory that contains the nuts, buried and growing alike. Only share territory with close kin, drive off foreigners." Those rules work, and to the untrained observer they look like cooperation. It is always difficult to say where the following of simple hidden rules differs from cooperation. A herd of bison looks like it is cooperating against predators but the behaviour can be modelled without any reference to cooperation, empathy or sacrifice. > >>Come on, a single counter-example in the entire animal kingdom could >>have destroyed my case and you could not offer one for either assertion. > > > False. Suggest you go back and actually *read* my post. > I suggest you learn how to present a case that people will willingly read in the first place. There is one hell of a lot of stuff on the internet, to get read your stuff has to look like it is worth reading. Huge citations from dryly written academic studies stuffed full of jargon do not capture the attention of your audience, they are a massive turn-off, especially when they are presented with no introductions or explanations as to what they are, how they relate to the issue under debate and why they should be taken seriously. It is very easy to take one look at such stuff and think "Oh Christ, more of that Pearl's shite, I don't need this." -- Martin Willett http://mwillett.org |
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