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An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2005

Namaste

Oh, no! Here it comes again! Those dreaded holidays where Vegans
waffle between:

A) Going to a family get-together and literally suffer through hours
of staring at dead carcasses, watching as others gulp down - not
chewing - these abused souls,
B) Going to a family get-together and endure all those not so casual
comments about anti-Veganism,
C) Not going to these gatherings and trying to arrange a dinner for
like-minded folks,
D) Not going to these gatherings and staying by themselves with their
Tofurkeys,
E) Not going to these gatherings and wondering if we hurt the
feelings of unconcerned/uncaring humans,
F) Not going to the dinners, but arriving afterwards for "dessert"
G) Any other actions you wish to fill-in.
H) Not going to these gatherings and fasting.

That's right! I said FASTING.
I will be fasting this ThanXgiving again - this has been a tradition
since 1998.
I hope some list members will be joining me on this day of torture,
death, greed, selfishness and debauchery by doing the same.

My fast is in HONOR/REMEMBERENCE/REVERENCE of the MILLIONS of animals
that are tortured and abused, then slaughtered just for this one (1)
day alone in the U.S.

I am not discussing one (1) day fasts. My fasts run from Wednesday
until Sunday.

Fasting achieves numerous benefits. It is a wonderful way to clean
out the body as far as health is concerned.

Spiritually, it also cleanses the soul.

Originally, fasting was used to 'get closer to the higher being.'

It was also used to rid sick bodies of diseases. This was copied from
watching animals when they are ill. They either eat greens or nothing
at all.

Modern times has shown fasting to be a form of protest.
Gandhi also used fasting to bring his point across.

My fasting tradition has came about when I could no longer go to
family gatherings for this 'holiday' and sit around a table infested
with dead carcass and by-products.
Even the 'religious' holidays were laughable as we traipsed to our
building of worship only to march back to a home full of death,
abuse and chemical irresponsibility.

Previous years has folks pointing out that this is a time for family
and friends getting-together to show their love and thankfulness.
But, who needs a "Hallmark" holiday for this occasion?
We can get together the other 364 days of the year without the excuse
of a 'holiday.'

I have had numerous opportunities to join like-minded folks for a
holiday feast, but prefer to not look upon this holiday as a festive
occasion. Why? Because it also represents false facts throughout
American history. Native Americans were thwarted into slavery and
near-annihilitation by the 'white man' in the name of 'god.' Recent
findings are coming out that there was no turkey - or even any kind
of 'meat' - at the dinner; only fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains.

Then, back to modern times, it always bothered me that after these
dinners, the male attendees would gather together in front of a
television set to watch the bloodsport known as 'football,' leaving
the women (slaves again to the 'white man') to clean up and watch
after the children.

You are invited and welcome to join my discussion list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaVegans/

Starting this weekend there will appear articles, information and
guides about the history and hypocrisy of ThanXgiving, as well as how
to cope with the upcoming holidays.
Additionally, you will find ways to fast safely and wisely.
For those who wish to "celebrate" and not fast, you will find
literally hundreds of recipes and tips, as well!

As we ready ourselves for Fur-Free Friday, I wish everyone who is
willing to "take the plunge" the best of luck in a successful and
quick fast, and may all of our efforts pay off!

= = = = = = = = = =

Here are my other discussion lists that also contain tons of
information in each of their categories - DAILY!!!
Please research the message archives for information you are seeking
and what you have missed:

Everything Yoga!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yoga-With-Nancy/

American Sign Language and Deaf Culture
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignSoFla/

Alternative Schooling Within The School System
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaSchools/

Om Shanti

Fidyl
Live Simply So That
Others May Simply Live
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yoga-With-Nancy/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignSoFla/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaVegans/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaSchools/

Even better would be to spend the day doing some kind of
volunteer work. That would be better than spending the day
giving a nice meal to turkeys in a shelter, as I saw somewhere.

Volunteer to do something about getting us out of Iraq, or anything
that would help the earth, or wild animals, or even homeless people.

Idon't think the turkeys would remember the feast, the next day.

wrote:
> An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2005

You're posting this crap again. I dealt with it extensively two years ago:
http://tinyurl.com/d469q

And you have no right to greet others with "namaste" given your bigotry
against other religions. You're not a yogi. You're a fraud.

I'll respond to just one egregious lie:

<...>
> I have had numerous opportunities to join like-minded folks for a
> holiday feast, but prefer to not look upon this holiday as a festive
> occasion. Why? Because it also represents false facts throughout
> American history. Native Americans were thwarted into slavery and
> near-annihilitation by the 'white man' in the name of 'god.' Recent
> findings are coming out that there was no turkey - or even any kind
> of 'meat' - at the dinner; only fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains.

It wasn't a vegan feast, nitwit. Here are the two contemporary sources
extant. First, Edward Winslow's note dated December 12, 1621. Note he
said the feast lasted three days -- the same amount of time you intend
to starve yourself and be estranged from your family:

Our corn [i.e., wheat] did prove well, and God be praised, we
had a good increase of Indian corn, and our barley indifferent
good, but our peas not worth the gathering, for we feared they
were too late sown. They came up very well, and blossomed, but
the sun parched them in the blossom. Our harvest being gotten
in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might
after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered
the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much
fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a
week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our
arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest
their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for
three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and
killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and
bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And
although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time
with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want
that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.

The second is from William Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation.
They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to
fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well
recovered in health and strength and had all things in good
plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad,
others were exercising in fishing, about cod and bass and other
fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had
their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began
to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this
place did abound when they came first (but afterward decreased
by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of
wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc.
Besides they had about a peck of meal a week to a person, or now
since harvest, Indian corn to that proportion. Which made many
afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their
friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports.

Note again that the meat items were fowl (ducks and geese), wild turkey,
five deer, and fish (bass and cod). Note also some of the vegetables
(peas) weren't even gathered.

<...>

I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.

usual suspect wrote:

>
> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.

More of your continued obscenities. I'll tell you hatred. The Pilgrims
had the lives saved by the local tribes. The next generation
exterminated the local tribe.

And this intelligent woman is an active Vegan, who cares about the way
our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms. Turkey's who in the wild
are magnificent creatures, intelligent picky eaters. Powerful. Such
wonderful animals that Ben Franklin wanted them to be our national
animal symbol.

In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't pick
their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.

I've lived in country with wild turkeys. They are beautiful animals,
nothing like what people are supporting on Thanksgiving. She humbly
gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys. Good for her.

"Beach Runner" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
>
>>
>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you
>> bigoted, hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt
>> with it yet.
>
> More of your continued obscenities.
================================
I see you can't defend the lys she wrote though, eh fool?

I'll tell you hatred. The Pilgrims
> had the lives saved by the local tribes. The next generation
> exterminated the local tribe.
>
> And this intelligent woman is an active Vegan, who cares about
> the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent
> picky eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben
> Franklin wanted them to be our national animal symbol.
==========================
None of which refutes your 'intelligent' vegans' lys, eh killer?

>
> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they
> can't pick their food, and raised so they often can't support
> their weight.
>
> I've lived in country with wild turkeys. They are beautiful
> animals, nothing like what people are supporting on
> Thanksgiving. She humbly gives thought to the conditions of
> these turkeys. Good for her.
============================
For lying? You truely have lost it, haven't you hypocrite?

>

Furthermore, calling Fidyl a whole is outright slander. I know she does
much good for society, teaching both health and handicapped resources.
She is a well respected resource in here field.

wrote:

> An Ahimsa ThanXgiving - Fast 2005
>
> Namaste
>
> Oh, no! Here it comes again! Those dreaded holidays where Vegans
> waffle between:
>
> A) Going to a family get-together and literally suffer through hours
> of staring at dead carcasses, watching as others gulp down - not
> chewing - these abused souls,
> B) Going to a family get-together and endure all those not so casual
> comments about anti-Veganism,
> C) Not going to these gatherings and trying to arrange a dinner for
> like-minded folks,
> D) Not going to these gatherings and staying by themselves with their
> Tofurkeys,
> E) Not going to these gatherings and wondering if we hurt the
> feelings of unconcerned/uncaring humans,
> F) Not going to the dinners, but arriving afterwards for "dessert"
> G) Any other actions you wish to fill-in.
> H) Not going to these gatherings and fasting.
>
> That's right! I said FASTING.
> I will be fasting this ThanXgiving again - this has been a tradition
> since 1998.
> I hope some list members will be joining me on this day of torture,
> death, greed, selfishness and debauchery by doing the same.
>
> My fast is in HONOR/REMEMBERENCE/REVERENCE of the MILLIONS of animals
> that are tortured and abused, then slaughtered just for this one (1)
> day alone in the U.S.
>
> I am not discussing one (1) day fasts. My fasts run from Wednesday
> until Sunday.
>
> Fasting achieves numerous benefits. It is a wonderful way to clean
> out the body as far as health is concerned.
>
> Spiritually, it also cleanses the soul.
>
> Originally, fasting was used to 'get closer to the higher being.'
>
> It was also used to rid sick bodies of diseases. This was copied from
> watching animals when they are ill. They either eat greens or nothing
> at all.
>
> Modern times has shown fasting to be a form of protest.
> Gandhi also used fasting to bring his point across.
>
> My fasting tradition has came about when I could no longer go to
> family gatherings for this 'holiday' and sit around a table infested
> with dead carcass and by-products.
> Even the 'religious' holidays were laughable as we traipsed to our
> building of worship only to march back to a home full of death,
> abuse and chemical irresponsibility.
>
> Previous years has folks pointing out that this is a time for family
> and friends getting-together to show their love and thankfulness.
> But, who needs a "Hallmark" holiday for this occasion?
> We can get together the other 364 days of the year without the excuse
> of a 'holiday.'
>
> I have had numerous opportunities to join like-minded folks for a
> holiday feast, but prefer to not look upon this holiday as a festive
> occasion. Why? Because it also represents false facts throughout
> American history. Native Americans were thwarted into slavery and
> near-annihilitation by the 'white man' in the name of 'god.' Recent
> findings are coming out that there was no turkey - or even any kind
> of 'meat' - at the dinner; only fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains.
>
> Then, back to modern times, it always bothered me that after these
> dinners, the male attendees would gather together in front of a
> television set to watch the bloodsport known as 'football,' leaving
> the women (slaves again to the 'white man') to clean up and watch
> after the children.
>
> You are invited and welcome to join my discussion list:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaVegans/
>
> Starting this weekend there will appear articles, information and
> guides about the history and hypocrisy of ThanXgiving, as well as how
> to cope with the upcoming holidays.
> Additionally, you will find ways to fast safely and wisely.
> For those who wish to "celebrate" and not fast, you will find
> literally hundreds of recipes and tips, as well!
>
> As we ready ourselves for Fur-Free Friday, I wish everyone who is
> willing to "take the plunge" the best of luck in a successful and
> quick fast, and may all of our efforts pay off!
>
> = = = = = = = = = =
>
> Here are my other discussion lists that also contain tons of
> information in each of their categories - DAILY!!!
> Please research the message archives for information you are seeking
> and what you have missed:
>
> Everything Yoga!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yoga-With-Nancy/
>
> American Sign Language and Deaf Culture
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignSoFla/
>
> Alternative Schooling Within The School System
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaSchools/
>
> Om Shanti
>
> Fidyl
> Live Simply So That
> Others May Simply Live
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yoga-With-Nancy/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignSoFla/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaVegans/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoFlaSchools/
>

Beach Runner wrote:
>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>
> More of your continued obscenities.

Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives thanks"
by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding culture,
disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths by suggesting
the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair or that turkeys are
raised in a cruel manner?

> And this intelligent woman

I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
(nevermind her lashing out at them).

> is an active Vegan,

Symptom of her problem.

> who cares

No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me what's
caring about any of her recommendations.

> about the way
> our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.

There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.

> Turkey's who in the wild
> are magnificent creatures, intelligent picky eaters. Powerful. Such
> wonderful animals that Ben Franklin wanted them to be our national
> animal symbol.

You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.

> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't pick
> their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.

Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
http://tinyurl.com/be2km
http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
http://tinyurl.com/95a85
http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
http://tinyurl.com/byac3

Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support their
own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR disinformation
without investigating it for yourself. Here are the facts.

Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only trimmed
of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't regular
occurrence in any poultry production:
49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
done once in the lifetime of the stock.

50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
were not done.

51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
his supervision.
http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d

And:
Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
small a building or too long without feed and water.

A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
its way through the beak at the desired point. This
burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
that might occur.
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html

Etc.

> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.

Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.

> They are beautiful animals,
> nothing like what people are supporting on Thanksgiving.

Supporting, no. Eating, yes.

> She humbly

Fidyl is not humble.

> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.

No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.

usual suspect wrote:

> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>
>>
>> More of your continued obscenities.
>
>
> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives thanks"
> by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding culture,
> disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths by suggesting
> the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair or that turkeys are
> raised in a cruel manner?
>
>> And this intelligent woman
>

Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession. Gives workshops
and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people, AND teaches
yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching exercise there is.
>
> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>

What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised? You're lack
of caring is sad.

>> is an active Vegan,
>
>
> Symptom of her problem.
>
>> who cares
>
>
> No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me what's
> caring about any of her recommendations.
>
>> about the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
>
>
> There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.
>
Study it, they are nothing like in the wild.

>> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent picky
>> eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben Franklin wanted
>> them to be our national animal symbol.
>
>
> You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.
>

Bull. I lived for several years on the boarder of South Dakota and
Nebraska, there is a place called Wild Turkey Creek. Guess what's
there? Do I have to spell it out. They have fast, intelligent animals.

>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>
>
> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
> http://tinyurl.com/95a85
> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
>
> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support their
> own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR disinformation
> without investigating it for yourself. Here are the facts.
>
> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only trimmed
> of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't regular
> occurrence in any poultry production:
> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>
> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
> were not done.
>
> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
> his supervision.
> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>
> And:
> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>
They are not given enough light and space.

> A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
> debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
> of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
> birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
> to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
> nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
> electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
> turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
> its way through the beak at the desired point. This
> burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
> that might occur.
> http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html
>
> Etc.
>
>> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.
>
>
> Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.
>
My brother was a scientist, and after the family made a fortune became a
world class patent attorney. My uncle, who in those days could, went to
law school out of high school, and even was an office in the white house
as a Presidential attorney. He still testifies in his 80s before
Congress as the expert on Postal reform and excellence. I could go on,
people who know me can easily google my name and other family members.
But as you have shown yourself to be a potentially dangerous individual
I have no desire to share it with you.

>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting on
>> Thanksgiving.
>
>
> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>
>> She humbly
>
>
> Fidyl is not humble.
>
>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>
>
> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end up
hurting someone.

Beach Dunderhead wrote:
>>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>>
>>> More of your continued obscenities.
>>
>> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives
>> thanks" by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding
>> culture, disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths by
>> suggesting the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair or
>> that turkeys are raised in a cruel manner?
>>
>>> And this intelligent woman
>
> Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession.

That doesn't make her an expert in other fields like history (she LIED
that the first thanksgiving was meatless) or livestock production (she
LIED about how turkeys are raised). It also doesn't address her contempt
for holidays, family, tradition, or other religions. Most Hindus --
Eastern or Western drop-outs who embrace it like she has -- have a
healthy respect for all of that. She doesn't. She's not a yogi, she's a
hate-filled fraud.

> Gives workshops
> and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people, AND teaches
> yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching exercise there is.

Ipse dixit. Yoga encompasses more than just hatha yoga (which is the
method of yoga associated with stretching), and the goal of yoga isn't
physical agility.

>> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
>> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
>> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
>> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>
> What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised?

I don't think this is particularly "horrible":
http://tinyurl.com/be2km
http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
http://tinyurl.com/95a85
http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
http://tinyurl.com/byac3

> You're lack of caring is sad.

Your phony concern is pathetic.

>>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>>
>> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
>> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
>> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
>> http://tinyurl.com/95a85
>> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
>> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
>> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
>>
>> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support
>> their own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR
>> disinformation without investigating it for yourself. Here are the facts.
>>
>> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only
>> trimmed of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't
>> regular occurrence in any poultry production:
>> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
>> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
>> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
>> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
>> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>>
>> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
>> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
>> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
>> were not done.
>>
>> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
>> his supervision.
>> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>>
>> And:
>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>
> They are not given enough light and space.

Look again at those pics. They have abundant light AND space.

>>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting
>>> on Thanksgiving.
>>
>> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>>
>>> She humbly
>>
>> Fidyl is not humble.
>>
>>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>>
>> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
>
> More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end up
> hurting someone.

Note you failed to address the points I raised. She lied about turkeys,
and so have you.

For Usual Subjects information,
here's an artical on factory farmed Turkeys.
A far cry from a real turkey.

http://www.factoryfarming.com/poultry.htm

With a growing number of consumers switching from red meat to poultry,
the chicken and turkey industries are booming. In addition to the
expanding U.S market, poultry companies are also benefiting from
expanding markets around the world.

Record numbers of chickens and turkeys are being raised and killed for
meat in the U.S. every year. Nearly ten billion chickens and half a
billion turkeys are hatched in the U.S. annually. These birds are
typically crowded by the thousands into huge, factory-like warehouses
where they can barely move. Each chicken is given less than half a
square foot of space, while turkeys are each given less than three
square feet. Shortly after hatching, both chickens and turkeys have the
ends of their beaks cut off, and turkeys also have the ends of their
toes clipped off. These mutilations are performed without anesthesia,
ostensibly to reduce injuries that result when stressed birds are driven
to fighting.

Today's "broiler" (meat) chickens have been genetically altered to grow
twice as fast and twice as large as their ancestors. Pushed beyond their
biological limits, hundreds of millions of chickens die every year
before reaching slaughter weight at 6 weeks of age. An industry journal
explains that "broilers [chickens] now grow so rapidly that the heart
and lungs are not developed well enough to support the remainder of the
body, resulting in congestive heart failure and tremendous death
losses." Modern broiler chickens also experience crippling leg
disorders, as their legs are not capable of supporting their abnormally
heavy bodies. Confined in unsanitary, disease-ridden factory farms, the
birds also frequently succumb to heat prostration, infectious diseases,
and cancer.

Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious
physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to
having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial
turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large
breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a result,
turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole means of
reproduction is artificial insemination. And similar to broiler
chickens, factory-farmed turkeys are prone to heart disease and leg
injuries as a consequence of their grossly-overweight bodies. An
industry journal laments that:

Turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their
skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the
turkeys have problems standing and fall and are trampled on or seek
refuge under feeders, leading to bruises and downgradings as well as
culled or killed birds.

Chickens and turkeys are taken to the slaughterhouse in crates stacked
on the backs of open trucks. Upon arrival at the slaughterhouse, the
birds are either pulled individually from their crates, or the crates
are lifted off the truck, often with a crane or forklift, and the birds
are dumped onto a conveyor belt. As the birds are unloaded, some miss
the conveyor belt and fall onto the ground. Slaughterhouse workers
intent upon 'processing' thousands of birds every hour have neither the
time nor the inclination to pick up individuals who fall through the
cracks, and these birds suffer grim deaths. Some die after being crushed
by machinery or vehicles operating near the unloading area, while others
may die of starvation or exposure days, or even weeks, later.

Birds inside the slaughterhouse suffer an equally gruesome fate. Upon
entering the facility, fully conscious birds are hung by their feet from
metal shackles on a moving rail. Although poultry are specifically
excluded from the federal Humane Slaughter Act (which requires that
animals be stunned before they are slaughtered), many slaughterplants
first stun the birds in an electrified water bath in order to immobilize
them and expedite assembly line killing.

However, stunning procedures are not monitored, and they are often
inadequate. Poultry slaughterhouses commonly set the electrical current
lower than what is required to render the birds unconscious because of
concerns that too much electricity would damage the carcasses and
diminish their value. The result is that while birds are immobilized
after stunning, they are still capable of feeling pain, and many emerge
from the stunning tank still conscious.

After the shackled birds pass through the stunning tank, their throats
are slashed, usually by a mechanical blade. Inevitably, the blade misses
some birds, who may still be moving and struggling after improper
stunning. Proceeding to the next station on the assembly line — the
scalding tank — the birds are submerged in boiling hot water. Those
missed by the killing blade are boiled alive. This occurs so commonly,
affecting millions of birds every year, that the industry has a term for
these birds: "redskins."

Beach Runner wrote:

>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
>
>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>
>>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More of your continued obscenities.
>>
>>
>>
>> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives
>> thanks" by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding
>> culture, disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths by
>> suggesting the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair or
>> that turkeys are raised in a cruel manner?
>>
Having lived for several years in increasing levels on an Indian
reservation they mourn Thanksgiving because of the massacre of the local
tribes.

Then there are those, like Fidyl who care about the horrendous lives
animals live and make a statement.

These are positive things. There are many family gatherings and I
happen to know that she does many wonderful things for a lot of people.
I doubt you help anyone. All I see is you cause people hurt.

>>> And this intelligent woman
>>
>>
>
> Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession. Gives workshops
> and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people, AND teaches
> yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching exercise there is.
>
>>
>> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
>> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
>> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
>> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>>
>
> What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised? You're lack
> of caring is sad.
>
>
>>> is an active Vegan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Symptom of her problem.
>>
>>> who cares
>>
>>
>>
>> No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me
>> what's caring about any of her recommendations.
>>
>>> about the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
>>
>>
>>
>> There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.
>>
> Study it, they are nothing like in the wild.
>
>>> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent picky
>>> eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben Franklin wanted
>>> them to be our national animal symbol.
>>
>>
>>
>> You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.
>>
>
> Bull. I lived for several years on the boarder of South Dakota and
> Nebraska, there is a place called Wild Turkey Creek. Guess what's
> there? Do I have to spell it out. They have fast, intelligent animals.
>
>>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
>> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
>> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
>> http://tinyurl.com/95a85
>> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
>> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
>> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
>>
>> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support
>> their own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR
>> disinformation without investigating it for yourself. Here are the facts.
>>
>> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only
>> trimmed of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't
>> regular occurrence in any poultry production:
>> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
>> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
>> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
>> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
>> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>>
>> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
>> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
>> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
>> were not done.
>>
>> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
>> his supervision.
>> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>>
>> And:
>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>>
> They are not given enough light and space.
>
>> A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
>> debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
>> of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
>> birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
>> to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
>> nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
>> electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
>> turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
>> its way through the beak at the desired point. This
>> burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
>> that might occur.
>> http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>>> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.
>>
> My brother was a scientist, and after the family made a fortune became a
> world class patent attorney. My uncle, who in those days could, went to
> law school out of high school, and even was an office in the white house
> as a Presidential attorney. He still testifies in his 80s before
> Congress as the expert on Postal reform and excellence. I could go on,
> people who know me can easily google my name and other family members.
> But as you have shown yourself to be a potentially dangerous individual
> I have no desire to share it with you.
>
>>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting
>>> on Thanksgiving.
>>
>>
>>
>> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>>
>>> She humbly
>>
>>
>>
>> Fidyl is not humble.
>>
>>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
>
> More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end up
> hurting someone.

>>> And:
>>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>>> small a building or too long without feed and water.

Cannibalism should ever give YOU a clue that they are problems. These
are not natural turkey anymore.

> Note you failed to address the points I raised. She lied about turkeys,
> and so have you.
You take some industry standard publications. But I just took your own
quote which proves Turkeys are not raised in a healthy caring manner.
But you'll never care.

Beach Blunder wrote:
> Furthermore, calling Fidyl a whole is outright slander.

I called her a hate-filled whore.

> I know she does much good for society,

Lying isn't good for society.

> teaching both health and handicapped resources.

"Teaching" infers conveying truths. She willfully lies. Accordingly,
she's not a good teacher.

> She is a well respected resource in here field.

She peddles misinformation and disinformation. I showed her two years
ago that her claim that the first thanksgiving was vegan was completely
fraudulent, but she continues to repeat that lie.

<...>

but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys?

Beach Bumbler rambled:
>>>> And:
>>>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>>>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>>>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>>>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>>>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>>>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>>>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>
> Cannibalism should ever give YOU a clue that they are problems. These
> are not natural turkey anymore.

It says they're only cannibalistic in very extreme situations. Not all
turkeys are grown in conditions that encourage fighting and cannibalism.
Accordingly, beak trimming isn't widely practiced. Your claim that it's
a norm has been debunked.

>> Note you failed to address the points I raised. She lied about
>> turkeys, and so have you.
>
> You take some industry standard publications.

Which you cannot rebut.

> But I just took your own
> quote which proves Turkeys are not raised in a healthy caring manner.

No, dimwit, it says they're only cannibalistic in very extreme situations.

> But you'll never care.

I care to be honest. You don't, so you continue telling lies even though
I've shown you the truth.

Beach Runner wrote:
> For Usual Subjects information,

Wrong, that's DISinformation. I'm not surprised you don't know the
difference, you ****.

> here's an artical on factory farmed Turkeys.
> A far cry from a real turkey.
>
> http://www.factoryfarming.com/poultry.htm
>
> With a growing number of consumers switching from red meat to poultry,
> the chicken and turkey industries are booming. In addition to the
> expanding U.S market, poultry companies are also benefiting from
> expanding markets around the world.
>
> Record numbers of chickens and turkeys are being raised and killed for
> meat in the U.S. every year. Nearly ten billion chickens and half a
> billion turkeys are hatched in the U.S. annually. These birds are
> typically crowded by the thousands into huge, factory-like warehouses
> where they can barely move. Each chicken is given less than half a
> square foot of space, while turkeys are each given less than three
> square feet. Shortly after hatching, both chickens and turkeys have the
> ends of their beaks cut off, and turkeys also have the ends of their
> toes clipped off. These mutilations are performed without anesthesia,
> ostensibly to reduce injuries that result when stressed birds are driven
> to fighting.
>
> Today's "broiler" (meat) chickens have been genetically altered to grow
> twice as fast and twice as large as their ancestors. Pushed beyond their
> biological limits, hundreds of millions of chickens die every year
> before reaching slaughter weight at 6 weeks of age. An industry journal
> explains that "broilers [chickens] now grow so rapidly that the heart
> and lungs are not developed well enough to support the remainder of the
> body, resulting in congestive heart failure and tremendous death
> losses." Modern broiler chickens also experience crippling leg
> disorders, as their legs are not capable of supporting their abnormally
> heavy bodies. Confined in unsanitary, disease-ridden factory farms, the
> birds also frequently succumb to heat prostration, infectious diseases,
> and cancer.
>
> Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious
> physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to
> having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial
> turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large
> breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a result,
> turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole means of
> reproduction is artificial insemination. And similar to broiler
> chickens, factory-farmed turkeys are prone to heart disease and leg
> injuries as a consequence of their grossly-overweight bodies. An
> industry journal laments that:
>
>
> Turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their
> skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the
> turkeys have problems standing and fall and are trampled on or seek
> refuge under feeders, leading to bruises and downgradings as well as
> culled or killed birds.
>
>
> Chickens and turkeys are taken to the slaughterhouse in crates stacked
> on the backs of open trucks. Upon arrival at the slaughterhouse, the
> birds are either pulled individually from their crates, or the crates
> are lifted off the truck, often with a crane or forklift, and the birds
> are dumped onto a conveyor belt. As the birds are unloaded, some miss
> the conveyor belt and fall onto the ground. Slaughterhouse workers
> intent upon 'processing' thousands of birds every hour have neither the
> time nor the inclination to pick up individuals who fall through the
> cracks, and these birds suffer grim deaths. Some die after being crushed
> by machinery or vehicles operating near the unloading area, while others
> may die of starvation or exposure days, or even weeks, later.
>
> Birds inside the slaughterhouse suffer an equally gruesome fate. Upon
> entering the facility, fully conscious birds are hung by their feet from
> metal shackles on a moving rail. Although poultry are specifically
> excluded from the federal Humane Slaughter Act (which requires that
> animals be stunned before they are slaughtered), many slaughterplants
> first stun the birds in an electrified water bath in order to immobilize
> them and expedite assembly line killing.
>
> However, stunning procedures are not monitored, and they are often
> inadequate. Poultry slaughterhouses commonly set the electrical current
> lower than what is required to render the birds unconscious because of
> concerns that too much electricity would damage the carcasses and
> diminish their value. The result is that while birds are immobilized
> after stunning, they are still capable of feeling pain, and many emerge
> from the stunning tank still conscious.
>
> After the shackled birds pass through the stunning tank, their throats
> are slashed, usually by a mechanical blade. Inevitably, the blade misses
> some birds, who may still be moving and struggling after improper
> stunning. Proceeding to the next station on the assembly line — the
> scalding tank — the birds are submerged in boiling hot water. Those
> missed by the killing blade are boiled alive. This occurs so commonly,
> affecting millions of birds every year, that the industry has a term for
> these birds: "redskins."
>
> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> usual suspect wrote:
>>
>>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More of your continued obscenities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives
>>> thanks" by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding
>>> culture, disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths
>>> by suggesting the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair or
>>> that turkeys are raised in a cruel manner?
>>>
> Having lived for several years in increasing levels on an Indian
> reservation they mourn Thanksgiving because of the massacre of the local
> tribes.
>
> Then there are those, like Fidyl who care about the horrendous lives
> animals live and make a statement.
>
> These are positive things. There are many family gatherings and I
> happen to know that she does many wonderful things for a lot of people.
> I doubt you help anyone. All I see is you cause people hurt.
>
>
>
>>>> And this intelligent woman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession. Gives
>> workshops and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people,
>> AND teaches yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching
>> exercise there is.
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
>>> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
>>> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
>>> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>>>
>>
>> What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised? You're lack
>> of caring is sad.
>>
>>
>>>> is an active Vegan,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Symptom of her problem.
>>>
>>>> who cares
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me
>>> what's caring about any of her recommendations.
>>>
>>>> about the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.
>>>
>> Study it, they are nothing like in the wild.
>>
>>>> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent
>>>> picky eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben Franklin
>>>> wanted them to be our national animal symbol.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.
>>>
>>
>> Bull. I lived for several years on the boarder of South Dakota and
>> Nebraska, there is a place called Wild Turkey Creek. Guess what's
>> there? Do I have to spell it out. They have fast, intelligent animals.
>>
>>>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>>>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
>>> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
>>> http://tinyurl.com/95a85
>>> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
>>> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
>>> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
>>>
>>> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support
>>> their own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR
>>> disinformation without investigating it for yourself. Here are the
>>> facts.
>>>
>>> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only
>>> trimmed of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't
>>> regular occurrence in any poultry production:
>>> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
>>> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
>>> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
>>> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
>>> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>>>
>>> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
>>> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
>>> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
>>> were not done.
>>>
>>> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
>>> his supervision.
>>> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>>>
>>> And:
>>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>>>
>> They are not given enough light and space.
>>
>>> A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
>>> debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
>>> of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
>>> birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
>>> to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
>>> nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
>>> electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
>>> turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
>>> its way through the beak at the desired point. This
>>> burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
>>> that might occur.
>>> http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html
>>>
>>> Etc.
>>>
>>>> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.
>>>
>> My brother was a scientist, and after the family made a fortune became
>> a world class patent attorney. My uncle, who in those days could,
>> went to law school out of high school, and even was an office in the
>> white house as a Presidential attorney. He still testifies in his 80s
>> before Congress as the expert on Postal reform and excellence. I
>> could go on, people who know me can easily google my name and other
>> family members.
>> But as you have shown yourself to be a potentially dangerous individual
>> I have no desire to share it with you.
>>
>>>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting
>>>> on Thanksgiving.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>>>
>>>> She humbly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fidyl is not humble.
>>>
>>>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
>>
>>
>> More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end up
>> hurting someone.

wrote:
> but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
> on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys?

I agree, Tracy. It's tremendously more noble, rewarding, and admirable
than the navel-gazing while seething in contempt for others that "Fidyl"
is advocating.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:49:29 GMT, usual suspect >
wrote:

wrote:
>> but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
>> on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys?
>
>I agree, Tracy. It's tremendously more noble, rewarding, and admirable
>than the navel-gazing while seething in contempt for others that "Fidyl"
>is advocating.

too bad only a uenet kook can see my point.

so is there something more you can do about it, besides
not eating meat?

wrote:
>>>but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
>>>on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys?
>>
>>I agree, Tracy. It's tremendously more noble, rewarding, and admirable
>>than the navel-gazing while seething in contempt for others that "Fidyl"
>>is advocating.
>
> too bad only a uenet kook can see my point.

Maybe you should reconsider whether the real kooks here are those
advocating a sham philosophy and who encourage fasting and navel-gazing
during holidays. Despite your irrational and hostile objections to my
posts, I commend you for at least coming up with the idea of volunteering.

wrote:
> so is there something more you can do about it, besides
> not eating meat?

Your question is apropos since not eating meat won't do anything to
solve the "problem." Don't hold your breath waiting for that violent old
coot to answer it, though. Even if he does respond, it's most likely to
be a rambling diatribe that has nothing to do with the question.

Beach Blunder wrote:
<...>
> Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious
> physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to
> having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial
> turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large
> breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a result,
> turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole means of
> reproduction is artificial insemination.

Wrong. Turkey (and other poultry) producers use artificial insemination
to maintain production continuity. Birds go to slaughter between 14-20
weeks; they become sexually mature in a year. They don't live long
enough to mate naturally.

http://www.eatturkey.com/consumer/raising/raise.html
http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/pfs16C.htm

usual suspect wrote:

> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>> For Usual Subjects information,
>
>
> Wrong, that's DISinformation. I'm not surprised you don't know the
> difference, you ****.
>
>> here's an artical on factory farmed Turkeys.
>> A far cry from a real turkey.
>>
>> http://www.factoryfarming.com/poultry.htm
>>
>> With a growing number of consumers switching from red meat to poultry,
>> the chicken and turkey industries are booming. In addition to the
>> expanding U.S market, poultry companies are also benefiting from
>> expanding markets around the world.
>>
>> Record numbers of chickens and turkeys are being raised and killed for
>> meat in the U.S. every year. Nearly ten billion chickens and half a
>> billion turkeys are hatched in the U.S. annually. These birds are
>> typically crowded by the thousands into huge, factory-like warehouses
>> where they can barely move. Each chicken is given less than half a
>> square foot of space, while turkeys are each given less than three
>> square feet. Shortly after hatching, both chickens and turkeys have
>> the ends of their beaks cut off, and turkeys also have the ends of
>> their toes clipped off. These mutilations are performed without
>> anesthesia, ostensibly to reduce injuries that result when stressed
>> birds are driven to fighting.
>>
>> Today's "broiler" (meat) chickens have been genetically altered to
>> grow twice as fast and twice as large as their ancestors. Pushed
>> beyond their biological limits, hundreds of millions of chickens die
>> every year before reaching slaughter weight at 6 weeks of age. An
>> industry journal explains that "broilers [chickens] now grow so
>> rapidly that the heart and lungs are not developed well enough to
>> support the remainder of the body, resulting in congestive heart
>> failure and tremendous death losses." Modern broiler chickens also
>> experience crippling leg disorders, as their legs are not capable of
>> supporting their abnormally heavy bodies. Confined in unsanitary,
>> disease-ridden factory farms, the birds also frequently succumb to
>> heat prostration, infectious diseases, and cancer.
>>
>> Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious
>> physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to
>> having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial
>> turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large
>> breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a
>> result, turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole
>> means of reproduction is artificial insemination. And similar to
>> broiler chickens, factory-farmed turkeys are prone to heart disease
>> and leg injuries as a consequence of their grossly-overweight bodies.
>> An industry journal laments that:
>>
>>
>> Turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their
>> skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the
>> turkeys have problems standing and fall and are trampled on or seek
>> refuge under feeders, leading to bruises and downgradings as well as
>> culled or killed birds.
>>
>>
>> Chickens and turkeys are taken to the slaughterhouse in crates stacked
>> on the backs of open trucks. Upon arrival at the slaughterhouse, the
>> birds are either pulled individually from their crates, or the crates
>> are lifted off the truck, often with a crane or forklift, and the
>> birds are dumped onto a conveyor belt. As the birds are unloaded, some
>> miss the conveyor belt and fall onto the ground. Slaughterhouse
>> workers intent upon 'processing' thousands of birds every hour have
>> neither the time nor the inclination to pick up individuals who fall
>> through the cracks, and these birds suffer grim deaths. Some die after
>> being crushed by machinery or vehicles operating near the unloading
>> area, while others may die of starvation or exposure days, or even
>> weeks, later.
>>
>> Birds inside the slaughterhouse suffer an equally gruesome fate. Upon
>> entering the facility, fully conscious birds are hung by their feet
>> from metal shackles on a moving rail. Although poultry are
>> specifically excluded from the federal Humane Slaughter Act (which
>> requires that animals be stunned before they are slaughtered), many
>> slaughterplants first stun the birds in an electrified water bath in
>> order to immobilize them and expedite assembly line killing.
>>
>> However, stunning procedures are not monitored, and they are often
>> inadequate. Poultry slaughterhouses commonly set the electrical
>> current lower than what is required to render the birds unconscious
>> because of concerns that too much electricity would damage the
>> carcasses and diminish their value. The result is that while birds are
>> immobilized after stunning, they are still capable of feeling pain,
>> and many emerge from the stunning tank still conscious.
>>
>> After the shackled birds pass through the stunning tank, their throats
>> are slashed, usually by a mechanical blade. Inevitably, the blade
>> misses some birds, who may still be moving and struggling after
>> improper stunning. Proceeding to the next station on the assembly line
>> — the scalding tank — the birds are submerged in boiling hot water.
>> Those missed by the killing blade are boiled alive. This occurs so
>> commonly, affecting millions of birds every year, that the industry
>> has a term for these birds: "redskins."
>>
>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>>>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More of your continued obscenities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives
>>>> thanks" by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding
>>>> culture, disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths
>>>> by suggesting the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair
>>>> or that turkeys are raised in a cruel manner?
>>>>
>> Having lived for several years in increasing levels on an Indian
>> reservation they mourn Thanksgiving because of the massacre of the
>> local tribes.
>>
>> Then there are those, like Fidyl who care about the horrendous lives
>> animals live and make a statement.
>>
>> These are positive things. There are many family gatherings and I
>> happen to know that she does many wonderful things for a lot of people.
>> I doubt you help anyone. All I see is you cause people hurt.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> And this intelligent woman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession. Gives
>>> workshops and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people,
>>> AND teaches yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching
>>> exercise there is.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
>>>> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
>>>> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
>>>> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>>>>
>>>
>>> What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised? You're
>>> lack of caring is sad.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> is an active Vegan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Symptom of her problem.
>>>>
>>>>> who cares
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me
>>>> what's caring about any of her recommendations.
>>>>
>>>>> about the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.
>>>>
>>> Study it, they are nothing like in the wild.
>>>
>>>>> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent
>>>>> picky eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben Franklin
>>>>> wanted them to be our national animal symbol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bull. I lived for several years on the boarder of South Dakota and
>>> Nebraska, there is a place called Wild Turkey Creek. Guess what's
>>> there? Do I have to spell it out. They have fast, intelligent animals.
>>>
>>>>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>>>>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
I invite other's to look at that disgusting picture of birds crowded
together like sardines.

>>>> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
Same thinghttp://tiny
>>>> url.com/95a85

Redirects you to a Network Solutions web page.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
A disgusting, unnatural picture. I invite you to show them to children
and see if they want to eat those things. No wonder bird flue is rampant.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
Crowded and caged. Disgusting to a human with feelings.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
Yes, you chose one's with beaks. But under horrible inhumane conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support
>>>> their own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR
>>>> disinformation without investigating it for yourself. Here are the
>>>> facts.

Look at them again, and pretend you have feelings.
>>>>
>>>> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only
>>>> trimmed of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't
>>>> regular occurrence in any poultry production:
>>>> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
>>>> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
>>>> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
>>>> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
>>>> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>>>>
>>>> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
>>>> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
>>>> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
>>>> were not done.
>>>>
>>>> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
>>>> his supervision.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>>>>
>>>> And:
>>>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>>>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>>>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>>>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>>>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>>>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>>>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>>>>
>>> They are not given enough light and space.
>>>
>>>> A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
>>>> debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
>>>> of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
>>>> birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
>>>> to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
>>>> nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
>>>> electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
>>>> turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
>>>> its way through the beak at the desired point. This
>>>> burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
>>>> that might occur.
>>>> http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html
>>>>
>>>> Etc.
>>>>
>>>>> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.
>>>>
>>> My brother was a scientist, and after the family made a fortune
>>> became a world class patent attorney. My uncle, who in those days
>>> could, went to law school out of high school, and even was an office
>>> in the white house as a Presidential attorney. He still testifies in
>>> his 80s before Congress as the expert on Postal reform and
>>> excellence. I could go on, people who know me can easily google my
>>> name and other family members.
>>> But as you have shown yourself to be a potentially dangerous individual
>>> I have no desire to share it with you.
>>>
>>>>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting
>>>>> on Thanksgiving.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>>>>
>>>>> She humbly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fidyl is not humble.

She is very active and a wonderful caring, giving human being.
>>>>
>>>>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
Your obscenities are immature.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end
>>> up hurting someone.

You need help.

Here's a photo galary, not produced by the Turkey industry but caught
unaware of Turkeys. They are obviously much more accurate.
http://www.goveg.com/photos_turkeys.asp

usual suspect wrote:

> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>> For Usual Subjects information,
>
>
> Wrong, that's DISinformation. I'm not surprised you don't know the
> difference, you ****.
>
>> here's an artical on factory farmed Turkeys.
>> A far cry from a real turkey.
>>
>> http://www.factoryfarming.com/poultry.htm
>>
>> With a growing number of consumers switching from red meat to poultry,
>> the chicken and turkey industries are booming. In addition to the
>> expanding U.S market, poultry companies are also benefiting from
>> expanding markets around the world.
>>
>> Record numbers of chickens and turkeys are being raised and killed for
>> meat in the U.S. every year. Nearly ten billion chickens and half a
>> billion turkeys are hatched in the U.S. annually. These birds are
>> typically crowded by the thousands into huge, factory-like warehouses
>> where they can barely move. Each chicken is given less than half a
>> square foot of space, while turkeys are each given less than three
>> square feet. Shortly after hatching, both chickens and turkeys have
>> the ends of their beaks cut off, and turkeys also have the ends of
>> their toes clipped off. These mutilations are performed without
>> anesthesia, ostensibly to reduce injuries that result when stressed
>> birds are driven to fighting.
>>
>> Today's "broiler" (meat) chickens have been genetically altered to
>> grow twice as fast and twice as large as their ancestors. Pushed
>> beyond their biological limits, hundreds of millions of chickens die
>> every year before reaching slaughter weight at 6 weeks of age. An
>> industry journal explains that "broilers [chickens] now grow so
>> rapidly that the heart and lungs are not developed well enough to
>> support the remainder of the body, resulting in congestive heart
>> failure and tremendous death losses." Modern broiler chickens also
>> experience crippling leg disorders, as their legs are not capable of
>> supporting their abnormally heavy bodies. Confined in unsanitary,
>> disease-ridden factory farms, the birds also frequently succumb to
>> heat prostration, infectious diseases, and cancer.
>>
>> Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious
>> physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to
>> having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial
>> turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large
>> breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a
>> result, turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole
>> means of reproduction is artificial insemination. And similar to
>> broiler chickens, factory-farmed turkeys are prone to heart disease
>> and leg injuries as a consequence of their grossly-overweight bodies.
>> An industry journal laments that:
>>
>>
>> Turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their
>> skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the
>> turkeys have problems standing and fall and are trampled on or seek
>> refuge under feeders, leading to bruises and downgradings as well as
>> culled or killed birds.
>>
>>
>> Chickens and turkeys are taken to the slaughterhouse in crates stacked
>> on the backs of open trucks. Upon arrival at the slaughterhouse, the
>> birds are either pulled individually from their crates, or the crates
>> are lifted off the truck, often with a crane or forklift, and the
>> birds are dumped onto a conveyor belt. As the birds are unloaded, some
>> miss the conveyor belt and fall onto the ground. Slaughterhouse
>> workers intent upon 'processing' thousands of birds every hour have
>> neither the time nor the inclination to pick up individuals who fall
>> through the cracks, and these birds suffer grim deaths. Some die after
>> being crushed by machinery or vehicles operating near the unloading
>> area, while others may die of starvation or exposure days, or even
>> weeks, later.
>>
>> Birds inside the slaughterhouse suffer an equally gruesome fate. Upon
>> entering the facility, fully conscious birds are hung by their feet
>> from metal shackles on a moving rail. Although poultry are
>> specifically excluded from the federal Humane Slaughter Act (which
>> requires that animals be stunned before they are slaughtered), many
>> slaughterplants first stun the birds in an electrified water bath in
>> order to immobilize them and expedite assembly line killing.
>>
>> However, stunning procedures are not monitored, and they are often
>> inadequate. Poultry slaughterhouses commonly set the electrical
>> current lower than what is required to render the birds unconscious
>> because of concerns that too much electricity would damage the
>> carcasses and diminish their value. The result is that while birds are
>> immobilized after stunning, they are still capable of feeling pain,
>> and many emerge from the stunning tank still conscious.
>>
>> After the shackled birds pass through the stunning tank, their throats
>> are slashed, usually by a mechanical blade. Inevitably, the blade
>> misses some birds, who may still be moving and struggling after
>> improper stunning. Proceeding to the next station on the assembly line
>> — the scalding tank — the birds are submerged in boiling hot water.
>> Those missed by the killing blade are boiled alive. This occurs so
>> commonly, affecting millions of birds every year, that the industry
>> has a term for these birds: "redskins."
>>
>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>> Beach Runner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I dealt with all your shameful vitriol two years ago, you bigoted,
>>>>>> hate-filled whore. It's a shame YOU haven't dealt with it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More of your continued obscenities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you read the post to which I replied? Tell me how one "gives
>>>> thanks" by shunning family gatherings, villifying the surrounding
>>>> culture, disdaining all aspects of tradition, and distorting truths
>>>> by suggesting the first thanksgiving was some kind of vegan affair
>>>> or that turkeys are raised in a cruel manner?
>>>>
>> Having lived for several years in increasing levels on an Indian
>> reservation they mourn Thanksgiving because of the massacre of the
>> local tribes.
>>
>> Then there are those, like Fidyl who care about the horrendous lives
>> animals live and make a statement.
>>
>> These are positive things. There are many family gatherings and I
>> happen to know that she does many wonderful things for a lot of people.
>> I doubt you help anyone. All I see is you cause people hurt.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> And this intelligent woman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well I happen to know she's a leader in her profession. Gives
>>> workshops and such. And she does work that helps handicapped people,
>>> AND teaches yoga which we all know is one of the best stretching
>>> exercise there is.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not convinced she's intelligent. I *am* convinced she's a
>>>> hate-filled bigot with some deep-seated issues that cause her to
>>>> encourage others to follow her lead in shunning family and tradition
>>>> (nevermind her lashing out at them).
>>>>
>>>
>>> What do you think of the horrible way Turkeys are raised? You're
>>> lack of caring is sad.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> is an active Vegan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Symptom of her problem.
>>>>
>>>>> who cares
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, she doesn't care. Read her post again, old fart, and tell me
>>>> what's caring about any of her recommendations.
>>>>
>>>>> about the way our nobel Turkeys are raised in factory farms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's nothing ignoble about how they're raised.
>>>>
>>> Study it, they are nothing like in the wild.
>>>
>>>>> Turkey's who in the wild are magnificent creatures, intelligent
>>>>> picky eaters. Powerful. Such wonderful animals that Ben Franklin
>>>>> wanted them to be our national animal symbol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have no ****ing clue what they're like in the wild.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bull. I lived for several years on the boarder of South Dakota and
>>> Nebraska, there is a place called Wild Turkey Creek. Guess what's
>>> there? Do I have to spell it out. They have fast, intelligent animals.
>>>
>>>>> In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they can't
>>>>> pick their food, and raised so they often can't support their weight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh really? Guess nobody told these turkeys:
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/be2km
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/8vxhd
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/95a85
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ayg46
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/arxlb
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/byac3
>>>>
>>>> Note that they still have their beaks and that they fully support
>>>> their own weight. You're a ****ing gullible rube who peddles AR
>>>> disinformation without investigating it for yourself. Here are the
>>>> facts.
>>>>
>>>> Beak trimming (entire beaks aren't removed, dimwit, they're only
>>>> trimmed of the pointy tip) occurs in isolated situations. It isn't
>>>> regular occurrence in any poultry production:
>>>> 49. When birds are kept in daylight conditions they can be
>>>> vicious, and beak trimming is an essential aid to management. It
>>>> is usual to trim beaks as a routine measure before birds leave
>>>> the brooder or the rearing accommodation and normally it need be
>>>> done once in the lifetime of the stock.
>>>>
>>>> 50. When birds are kept in buildings with a light control
>>>> system, beak trimming should be carried out only when it is
>>>> clear that more suffering would be caused in the flock if it
>>>> were not done.
>>>>
>>>> 51. Beak trimming should be done by a skilled operator or under
>>>> his supervision.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/9kj8d
>>>>
>>>> And:
>>>> Cannibalism can be a problem, but one that the small
>>>> turkey flock should never encounter if the birds are given
>>>> enough space. No one is certain about the cause of
>>>> cannibalism, but several factors seem to contribute to its
>>>> presence. Too much of anything seems to trigger
>>>> cannibalism-too much heat and light, too many birds in too
>>>> small a building or too long without feed and water.
>>>>
>>> They are not given enough light and space.
>>>
>>>> A remedy for cannibalism is debeaking. The act of
>>>> debeaking removes a portion of the upper beak and little
>>>> of the lower beak (Vis. 8). This is easily done when the
>>>> birds are young. The tip of the upper beak is removed up
>>>> to but never more than half-way from the tip to the
>>>> nostril holes in the top beak. The poultry industry uses
>>>> electric debeakers to debeak large numbers of chickens or
>>>> turkeys. The deabeaker has a hot cutting blade that burns
>>>> its way through the beak at the desired point. This
>>>> burning action cauterizes the wound to stop any bleeding
>>>> that might occur.
>>>> http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modpo/e1259006.html
>>>>
>>>> Etc.
>>>>
>>>>> I've lived in country with wild turkeys.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like you're from a family of turkeys, birdbrain.
>>>>
>>> My brother was a scientist, and after the family made a fortune
>>> became a world class patent attorney. My uncle, who in those days
>>> could, went to law school out of high school, and even was an office
>>> in the white house as a Presidential attorney. He still testifies in
>>> his 80s before Congress as the expert on Postal reform and
>>> excellence. I could go on, people who know me can easily google my
>>> name and other family members.
>>> But as you have shown yourself to be a potentially dangerous individual
>>> I have no desire to share it with you.
>>>
>>>>> They are beautiful animals, nothing like what people are supporting
>>>>> on Thanksgiving.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Supporting, no. Eating, yes.
>>>>
>>>>> She humbly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fidyl is not humble.
>>>>
>>>>> gives thought to the conditions of these turkeys.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, she lies about them. So do you. Asswipe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More kind words from a very sick man. Get some help before you end
>>> up hurting someone.

wrote:

> but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
> on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys? q q*

She's person that does a lot of volunteer work, as do I. Thanksgiving
is a special event that ignores the history of the massacre of the local
tribes, and the conditions of the animals, and celebrates gluttony.
Better a family should get together, and eat a light and healthy meal,
exchange stories and photos and do some healthy activity besides overeating.

Beach Runner wrote:

WTF is this bullshit? Learn how to reply to posts, dummy. Stop going way
back and replying to points with FOUR arrots beside them. At the very
least, find the post that contains the points you want to reply to and
reply again to *that* post.

-------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/be2km

> I invite other's to look at that disgusting picture of birds crowded
> together like sardines.

They're not packed together like sardines. They have room to turn
completely around. The place is well-lit, appears clean, and they have
feeders and water reasonably spaced throughout the facility.
-------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/ayg46

> A disgusting, unnatural picture. I invite you to show them to
> children and see if they want to eat those things.

It shows the contrary of your exaggerated and bogus claims. Here's what
you wrote:
In factory farms they are crowded together, debeaked so they
can't pick their food, and raised so they often can't support
their weight.

This pic shows that they have room to turn around, they have their full
beaks, and they can support their own weight.

> No wonder bird flue is rampant.

Non sequitur and false: bird flu has thus far primarily affected parts
of Asia and Europe. It hasn't spread to the Western Hemisphere.
-------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/arxlb

> Crowded and caged. Disgusting to a human with feelings.

They're not crowded. They have full beaks. They can turn around without
touching each other (note the space in the bottom right of pic where you
can see the ground). They have sunlight. They have fresh air. They look
physically healthy and well-fed. All of which is contrary to your claims
about how turkeys are produced.
-------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/byac3

> Yes, you chose one's with beaks. But under horrible inhumane
> conditions.

There's nothing inhumane about the conditions in this pic. Contrary to
your wild claims -- which you brainlessly parrot from ARA sites -- these
very healthy turkeys are outdoors in bright sunlight, with plenty of
room to move around, with their whole beaks. They're not warehoused in
some ****ing dungeon where they've been horribly mutilated and
mistreated. NO! The conditions you parrot from ARA sites are the
exceptions. I've showed you the rule.
---------------------------------------------
> Look at them again, and pretend you have feelings.

I did, to refresh my memory. I looked for pics to support your claims.
The only ones I found were on ARA sites and many of them were the SAME
pics. Some of them were even so old or doctored that they were in black
and white.

Why do you seek to condemn the norm on the basis of the few exceptions
you can find?

Admit that you're not looking at the whole picture, but just the limited
and (admittedly) disgusting propaganda from AR groups. They don't
present the norm, just abuses. Very, very few turkeys ever have their
beaks trimmed. Very, very few are raised in overcrowded conditions. To
suggest that all are is a ****ing lie and makes you a ****ing liar.
---------------------------------------------
>> Fidyl is not humble.

> She is very active and a wonderful caring, giving human being.

Unproven from HER OWN posts. Her posts show her to be a liar and an
uncaring person. She lied about the first thanksgiving and about the
conditions of turkey farming. She also had the nerve to offer a Hindu
greeting before lashing out against the religious traditions of others.
----------------------------------------------
> You need help.

No, I don't. So far you're the only one who's threatened violence.
You're also the one who can't seem to figure out how to post messages to
usenet. Putz.

Beach Liar wrote:
> Here's a photo galary, not produced by the Turkey industry but caught
> unaware of Turkeys. They are obviously much more accurate.
> http://www.goveg.com/photos_turkeys.asp

Sixteen pictures. That's all. And those images are hardly representative
of turkey farming.

Hey Tracy, what did I tell ya?

Beach Rambler wrote:
>> but don't you agree it would be better to do volunteer work
>> on thanksgiving, than to contemplate turkeys? q q*
>
> She's person that does a lot of volunteer work, as do I. Thanksgiving
> is a special event that ignores the history of the massacre of the local
> tribes, and the conditions of the animals, and celebrates gluttony.

I can only imagine how pathetic your holidays are with your long-winded
lectures about killing the Indians, why the whole damn family should go
vegan, etc. What about watching football, Bob? Is that acceptable?

> Better a family should get together, and eat a light and healthy meal,
> exchange stories and photos and do some healthy activity besides
> overeating.

Ha! All of that's what "Fidyl" railed against in her diatribe and you
called me out for disagreeing with her about that.

I just think that the fact that the US government is now torturing
human beings is even worse.

wrote:
> I just think that the fact that the US government is now torturing
> human beings is even worse.

Are we? Where did you hear or read this?

> wrote in message
...
>I just think that the fact that the US government is now
>torturing
> human beings is even worse.
> =========================
dancing noted, fool. The true lack of anything concrete to say
on a topic, ly about something else instead. Thanks for not
disapointing anyone, killer.

>

do you have your head up your ass or something? Read the news.

kohlrabi_croce wrote:
> do you have your head up your ass or something?

No. Do you? And is that why you keep snipping everything out of posts so
people have to either guess whom you're replying or search up threads?
(Some of us don't sort messages by thread.)

> Read the news.

I do. I know that Senator McCain sponsored legislation which the Senate
has passed which would ban torture of suspected terrorists in US
custody. It's currently held up in the House of Representatives. I also
know that the bill isn't supported by the administration because it
would tie their hands in the event they had in custody someone with
detailed information of an immediately pending attack.

The administration's objection, though, is based on hypothetical
situations that should be considered and NOT on current policy. The CIA
Director has just explained that his agency does NOT engage in torture.
They employ measures which are within the existing legal boundaries.

Imagine if the CIA had suspected Zacarias Moussaoui, who has since
confessed to being the 20th 9/11 hijacker, had credible information
about that attack complete with names, dates, and methods. Would you
prefer to see 3000 people die horrible deaths or would you accept the
tactics required to crack a nut to prevent it?

The McCain legislation sounds like the right thing, but it's unnecessary
and I think it proscribes measures which we may one day wish we employed
in dire circumstances. We've *already* signed treaties against torture.
We *don't* use torture.

You lied.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS....prisoners.ap/

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:15:03 GMT, usual suspect >
wrote:

>kohlrabi_croce wrote:
>> do you have your head up your ass or something?
>
>No. Do you? And is that why you keep snipping everything out of posts so
>people have to either guess whom you're replying or search up threads?
>(Some of us don't sort messages by thread.)
>
>> Read the news.
>
>I do. I know that Senator McCain sponsored legislation which the Senate
>has passed which would ban torture of suspected terrorists in US
>custody. It's currently held up in the House of Representatives. I also
>know that the bill isn't supported by the administration because it
>would tie their hands in the event they had in custody someone with
>detailed information of an immediately pending attack.
>
>The administration's objection, though, is based on hypothetical
>situations that should be considered and NOT on current policy. The CIA
>Director has just explained that his agency does NOT engage in torture.
>They employ measures which are within the existing legal boundaries.
>
>Imagine if the CIA had suspected Zacarias Moussaoui, who has since
>confessed to being the 20th 9/11 hijacker, had credible information
>about that attack complete with names, dates, and methods. Would you
>prefer to see 3000 people die horrible deaths or would you accept the
>tactics required to crack a nut to prevent it?
>
>The McCain legislation sounds like the right thing, but it's unnecessary
>and I think it proscribes measures which we may one day wish we employed
>in dire circumstances. We've *already* signed treaties against torture.
>We *don't* use torture.
>
>You lied.
>
>http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS....prisoners.ap/

Oh Lordy, a neocon nutcase who wants to believe the lies, and turn
around and beat up on people who don't want to eat meat. I am just
gonna have to upgrade from freeagent, or else get me another
newsreader that will let me killfile. Jesus Christ.

wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:15:03 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
>
>>kohlrabi_croce wrote:
>>
>>>do you have your head up your ass or something?
>>
>>No. Do you? And is that why you keep snipping everything out of posts so
>>people have to either guess whom you're replying or search up threads?
>>(Some of us don't sort messages by thread.)
>>
>>
>>>Read the news.
>>
>>I do. I know that Senator McCain sponsored legislation which the Senate
>>has passed which would ban torture of suspected terrorists in US
>>custody. It's currently held up in the House of Representatives. I also
>>know that the bill isn't supported by the administration because it
>>would tie their hands in the event they had in custody someone with
>>detailed information of an immediately pending attack.
>>
>>The administration's objection, though, is based on hypothetical
>>situations that should be considered and NOT on current policy. The CIA
>>Director has just explained that his agency does NOT engage in torture.
>>They employ measures which are within the existing legal boundaries.
>>
>>Imagine if the CIA had suspected Zacarias Moussaoui, who has since
>>confessed to being the 20th 9/11 hijacker, had credible information
>>about that attack complete with names, dates, and methods. Would you
>>prefer to see 3000 people die horrible deaths or would you accept the
>>tactics required to crack a nut to prevent it?
>>
>>The McCain legislation sounds like the right thing, but it's unnecessary
>>and I think it proscribes measures which we may one day wish we employed
>>in dire circumstances. We've *already* signed treaties against torture.
>>We *don't* use torture.
>>
>>You lied.
>>
>>http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS....prisoners.ap/
>
>
>
> Oh Lordy, a neocon

I suspect you have no ****ing idea what a "neocon" is, and if you did,
you sure as hell wouldn't call me one.

> nutcase who wants to believe the lies,

Which lies would those be? Remember, I've already called you on one of
your own.

> and turn
> around and beat up on people who don't want to eat meat. I am just
> gonna have to upgrade from freeagent, or else get me another
> newsreader that will let me killfile. Jesus Christ.

You could also either learn to defend your positions better or tolerate
others just because you disagree with them. Either beats lying and
running away, Tracy.

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