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usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
how they interact with normal people.

The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.

The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
anti-"decorating," etc.).

Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.

During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
for her.

As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.

Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
****ed up he really thinks she is.

The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
as emotive, uninformed jackasses.

I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
with the Cajun family.
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Beach Runner
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode



usual suspect wrote:

> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
> would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
> vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
> how they interact with normal people.
>
> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
> to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
> household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
> street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
> "principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
> their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
> spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>
> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
> within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
> so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
> fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
> avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
> bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
> things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
> were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
> and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
> anti-"decorating," etc.).
>
> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
> necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
> assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
> meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
> condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
> didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
> from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>
> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
> all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
> experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
> (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
> for her.
>
> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
> vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
> rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
> week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
> she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
> stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
> exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>
> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
> the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
> up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
> normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
> brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
> maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
> *had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
> ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>
> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
> to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
> about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
> telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
> as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>
> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
> entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
> especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
> therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
> interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
> cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
> with the Cajun family.


A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted. Obviously the producers sought
extremists to make the sure more interesting.
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Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
> would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
> vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
> how they interact with normal people.
>
> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
> to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
> household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
> street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
> "principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
> their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
> spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>
> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
> within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
> so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
> fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
> avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
> bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
> things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
> were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
> and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
> anti-"decorating," etc.).
>
> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
> necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
> assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
> meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
> condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
> didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
> from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>
> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
> all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
> experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
> (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
> for her.
>
> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
> vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
> rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
> week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
> she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
> stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
> exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>
> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
> the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
> up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
> normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
> brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
> maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
> *had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
> ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>
> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
> to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
> about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
> telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
> as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>
> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
> entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
> especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
> therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
> interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
> cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
> with the Cajun family.


You are assuming all vegans are like
each other. It's like watching Jerry
Springer and coming to the conclusion
that all couples have bizarre problems.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/


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Dutch
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

"Beach Runner" > wrote

> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one behavior.
> How prejudicial and bigoted.


The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.

> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
> interesting.


The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating mostly
meat.

The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from the
local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure that once
the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was tallied up, the
hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.


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RobDar
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

First...I am not sure it is fair to generalize the vegan lifestyle and
assume they are all like the goof pot on the show...
I cannot say that I have known more than a handful of vegans...but none of
them were as...interesting...as the lady on wife swap.
Our conversation during the show?....Where the hell do they find all these
people? Nearly everyone on these shows has some serious quirk or
another...I guess living my " average joe american" life in my hard working
neighborhood on a blue collar street...I have lost touch with just how many
off kilter folks there are around me!
There is a part of me that feels sorry for people like her. There is
something sorely lacking in their lives. Some part of themselves that is
empty and out of balance....anyone with so strict a mind set or activist
personality, and I mean those people who have become so engrossed that they
have lost the ability/willingness to understand and/or associate with people
outside their idealology, has something missing in themselves. People look
at activists and see dedication and strength of conviction...I see weakness.
I deal with activists and "want to be" activists everyday and you cannot
talk to even one of them. If offered a descenting opinion they react with
emotional outcry...why?...because they nothing else to offer. They are the
perpetual victims. People who, if they do not have some cause or issue to
rally around and cry about, have very little else about themselves to make
them feel alive or valued.




"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show would
> benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a vegan. It
> showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and how they
> interact with normal people.
>
> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat) to
> consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
> household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
> street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
> "principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
> their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
> spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>
> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the things
> most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most within her
> control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing so for the
> consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no fear of
> consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to avoid coming
> home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching,
> domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane things;
> he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family were kind
> of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and the
> daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
> anti-"decorating," etc.).
>
> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
> necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
> assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with meat)
> and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
> condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I didn't
> think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara from
> Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>
> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
> all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole experience
> to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband (Ricky)
> apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic for her.
>
> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
> vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
> rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
> week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
> she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
> stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
> exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>
> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
> the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
> up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
> normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
> brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
> maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she *had*
> taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed
> up he really thinks she is.
>
> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try to
> proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
> about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
> telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across as
> emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>
> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
> entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
> especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
> therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
> interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
> cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat with
> the Cajun family.





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C. James Strutz
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"RobDar" > wrote in message
...

> First...I am not sure it is fair to generalize the vegan lifestyle and
> assume they are all like the goof pot on the show...


You're right, it's unfair to make wide generalizations about any group of
people.

> I cannot say that I have known more than a handful of vegans...but none of
> them were as...interesting...as the lady on wife swap.
> Our conversation during the show?....Where the hell do they find all these
> people? Nearly everyone on these shows has some serious quirk or
> another...I guess living my " average joe american" life in my hard
> working neighborhood on a blue collar street...I have lost touch with just
> how many off kilter folks there are around me!


You're right again. It's a reality show and producers screen people and put
them in circumstances that provide the best entertainment value. It's silly
for anyone to believe that characters on some reality show are
representitive of, well, reality....

> There is a part of me that feels sorry for people like her. There is
> something sorely lacking in their lives. Some part of themselves that is
> empty and out of balance....anyone with so strict a mind set or activist
> personality, and I mean those people who have become so engrossed that
> they have lost the ability/willingness to understand and/or associate with
> people outside their idealology, has something missing in themselves.
> People look at activists and see dedication and strength of conviction...I
> see weakness. I deal with activists and "want to be" activists everyday
> and you cannot talk to even one of them. If offered a descenting opinion
> they react with emotional outcry...why?...because they nothing else to
> offer. They are the perpetual victims. People who, if they do not have
> some cause or issue to rally around and cry about, have very little else
> about themselves to make them feel alive or valued.


Strength and weakness is a dichotomy - there cannot be one without the
other. Don't pity people like the woman in the reality show. She obviously
feels as though her ideology is a strength, not a weakness. It's not that
they're "perpetual victims", rather their focus is so narrow that there's
very little overlap with mainstream thinking. That's okay as long as it
doesn't hurt anyone or anything.


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RobDar
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

issue of cd's? not sure I am following....
"Dutch" > wrote in message
news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>
>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>> behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.

>
> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>
>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>> interesting.

>
> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating mostly
> meat.
>
> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
> vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from the
> local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure that once
> the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was tallied up,
> the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>
>



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RobDar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

Does anyone still watch Jerry Springer?

There are a fair number of folks who think that crap is real...and the way
it is!

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
.. .
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>> would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>> vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
>> how they interact with normal people.
>>
>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
>> to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
>> household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
>> street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
>> "principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
>> their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
>> spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>>
>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
>> within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
>> so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
>> fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
>> avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
>> bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
>> things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
>> were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
>> and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>> anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>
>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
>> necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
>> assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
>> meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
>> condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
>> didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
>> from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>
>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
>> all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>> experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
>> (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
>> for her.
>>
>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
>> vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
>> rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
>> week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
>> she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
>> stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
>> exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>>
>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
>> the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
>> up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
>> normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
>> brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
>> maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
>> *had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
>> ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>
>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
>> to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
>> about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
>> telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
>> as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>
>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
>> entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
>> especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
>> therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
>> interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
>> cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
>> with the Cajun family.

>
> You are assuming all vegans are like
> each other. It's like watching Jerry
> Springer and coming to the conclusion
> that all couples have bizarre problems.
>
>
> --
> SN
> http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
>
>



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RobDar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

You are right C.J....the question is...do they hurt anyone?
I do not know. I think that the effect extremist positions have on public
opinion can be damaging...it can be helpful as well...I guess the question
of whether they hurt anyone can only be answered with "It depends on what
kind of damage you are looking for". I think that many of the extremist
positions have some unintended social consequences. I think these positions
sometimes allow questionable laws and questionable practices to enter the
mainstream as a kind of "tolerable compromise" or a "lesser of two evils"
kind of thing.

and you are right...all of this is okay...but as Mark Twain said...the
weakest of all things is a virtue that has not been tested in fire. I find
that the narrow focus of many of the extremists I come across is narrow for
just this reason...their virtue will not withstand fire...or even discussion
of dissenting opinion. I find these people very troubling...

"C. James Strutz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "RobDar" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> First...I am not sure it is fair to generalize the vegan lifestyle and
>> assume they are all like the goof pot on the show...

>
> You're right, it's unfair to make wide generalizations about any group of
> people.
>
>> I cannot say that I have known more than a handful of vegans...but none
>> of them were as...interesting...as the lady on wife swap.
>> Our conversation during the show?....Where the hell do they find all
>> these people? Nearly everyone on these shows has some serious quirk or
>> another...I guess living my " average joe american" life in my hard
>> working neighborhood on a blue collar street...I have lost touch with
>> just how many off kilter folks there are around me!

>
> You're right again. It's a reality show and producers screen people and
> put them in circumstances that provide the best entertainment value. It's
> silly for anyone to believe that characters on some reality show are
> representitive of, well, reality....
>
>> There is a part of me that feels sorry for people like her. There is
>> something sorely lacking in their lives. Some part of themselves that is
>> empty and out of balance....anyone with so strict a mind set or activist
>> personality, and I mean those people who have become so engrossed that
>> they have lost the ability/willingness to understand and/or associate
>> with people outside their idealology, has something missing in
>> themselves. People look at activists and see dedication and strength of
>> conviction...I see weakness. I deal with activists and "want to be"
>> activists everyday and you cannot talk to even one of them. If offered a
>> descenting opinion they react with emotional outcry...why?...because they
>> nothing else to offer. They are the perpetual victims. People who, if
>> they do not have some cause or issue to rally around and cry about, have
>> very little else about themselves to make them feel alive or valued.

>
> Strength and weakness is a dichotomy - there cannot be one without the
> other. Don't pity people like the woman in the reality show. She obviously
> feels as though her ideology is a strength, not a weakness. It's not that
> they're "perpetual victims", rather their focus is so narrow that there's
> very little overlap with mainstream thinking. That's okay as long as it
> doesn't hurt anyone or anything.
>



  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

Beach Runner wrote:
>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>> would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>> vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe,
>> and how they interact with normal people.
>>
>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the
>> cat) to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself
>> and her household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to
>> strangers on the street in an attempt to get them to live according to
>> her peculiar "principles." Part of those principles at home included
>> getting rid of their stove and many of their possessions; her home
>> became increasingly spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan
>> abyss.
>>
>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
>> within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears
>> doing so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he
>> expressed no fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also
>> overworks to avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy
>> navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching, domineering, and protesting to
>> clean house or do other mundane things; he's adopted the role of
>> housemaid by default. The whole family were kind of drifting apart and
>> becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and the daughter afraid to
>> speak up about any of the changes (dietary, anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>
>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out
>> of necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile,
>> Jackie assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled
>> with meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are,
>> she's condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit,
>> though, I didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan
>> witch Barbara from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>
>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to
>> an all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>> experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
>> (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
>> for her.
>>
>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year,
>> the vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from
>> animal rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for
>> an entire week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them,
>> even though she said she's seen them many times before. Though the
>> kids were briefly stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are
>> atypical), they didn't exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and
>> fruits.
>>
>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.
>> Since the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but
>> haven't given up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the
>> stove Bobbi (the normal wife who ended up having to deal with
>> milquetoast Harold) had brought in and has even resumed eating some
>> cooked foods. She admitted maybe she was taking things too far. I'm
>> sure her husband agrees she *had* taken things too far, even if he
>> lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>
>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
>> to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and
>> aggressive about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and
>> informative by telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end
>> up coming across as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>
>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's
>> very entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population
>> -- especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally,
>> it's therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to
>> benefit from interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is
>> again eating cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara)
>> even ate meat with the Cajun family.

>
>
> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
> behavior.


The Koplin family from Arizona are much more typical of vegans,
especially raw faddists, than they're atypical.

> How prejudicial and bigoted.


Vegans ARE prejudiced bigots.

> Obviously the producers sought
> extremists to make the sure more interesting.


Irrelevant. I pointed out that the inclusion of nuts makes shows like
this more interesting (see my first point in the last paragraph, dumb
ass). Vegans are kooks. They're extremists. They don't mesh well with
normal people. That's why they tend to make shows like this interesting
and amusing.


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

Skanky whined:
>>For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>>because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>>would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>>vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
>>how they interact with normal people.
>>
>>The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
>>to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
>>household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
>>street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
>>"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
>>their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
>>spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>>
>>The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
>>within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
>>so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
>>fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
>>avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
>>bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
>>things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
>>were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
>>and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>>anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>
>>Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
>>necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
>>assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
>>meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
>>condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
>>didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
>>from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>
>>During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
>>all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>>experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
>>(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
>>for her.
>>
>>As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
>>vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
>>rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
>>week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
>>she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
>>stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
>>exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>>
>>Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
>>the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
>>up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
>>normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
>>brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
>>maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
>>*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
>>****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>
>>The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
>>to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
>>about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
>>telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
>>as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>
>>I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
>>entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
>>especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
>>therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
>>interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
>>cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
>>with the Cajun family.

>
> You are assuming all vegans are like
> each other.


They are, generally speaking. Vegans are conformists; they conform to a
doctrinaire, sanctimonious position that they have to save the world. I
should've pointed out above that Jackie's focus on the things most out
of her control and avoids dealing with the things most within her
control is typical of vegans. Vegans tend to be emotionally immature
(e.g., crying through repeated showings of AR videos) and obsess about
things they cannot control; they let the things they CAN control go
downhill -- whether it's a career, family, pet, etc. (And Jackie's case
shows how far and quickly someone can sink into the abyss. Her focus was
on things completely outside her control -- saving the animals. She
didn't work, she didn't tend to her home or family, she didn't tend well
to herself. Sound familiar, carless agoraphobic pothead Skanky?)

As an extremist and absolutist pseudo-philosophy, veganism is both
dogmatic and monolithic. There's not much difference philosophically,
politically, tempermentally between vegans. There are only degrees
separating the hard-core out-of-touch zealots and those who admire them
(including wannabes).

> It's like watching Jerry
> Springer and coming to the conclusion
> that all couples have bizarre problems.


The only similarity is that both vegans and the typical Springer guest
are dysfunctional.
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Skanky whined:
> >>For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
> >>because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
> >>would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
> >>vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
> >>how they interact with normal people.
> >>
> >>The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
> >>to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
> >>household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
> >>street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
> >>"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
> >>their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
> >>spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
> >>
> >>The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
> >>things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
> >>within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
> >>so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
> >>fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
> >>avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
> >>bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
> >>things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
> >>were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
> >>and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
> >>anti-"decorating," etc.).
> >>
> >>Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
> >>necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
> >>assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
> >>meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
> >>condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
> >>didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
> >>from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
> >>
> >>During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
> >>hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
> >>all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
> >>experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
> >>(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
> >>for her.
> >>
> >>As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
> >>vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
> >>rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
> >>week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
> >>she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
> >>stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
> >>exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
> >>
> >>Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
> >>the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
> >>up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
> >>normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
> >>brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
> >>maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
> >>*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
> >>****ed up he really thinks she is.
> >>
> >>The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
> >>to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
> >>about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
> >>telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
> >>as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
> >>
> >>I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
> >>entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
> >>especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
> >>therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
> >>interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
> >>cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
> >>with the Cajun family.

> >
> > You are assuming all vegans are like
> > each other.

>
> They are, generally speaking. Vegans are conformists; they conform to a
> doctrinaire, sanctimonious position that they have to save the world. I
> should've pointed out above that Jackie's focus on the things most out
> of her control and avoids dealing with the things most within her
> control is typical of vegans. Vegans tend to be emotionally immature
> (e.g., crying through repeated showings of AR videos) and obsess about
> things they cannot control; they let the things they CAN control go
> downhill -- whether it's a career, family, pet, etc. (And Jackie's case
> shows how far and quickly someone can sink into the abyss. Her focus was
> on things completely outside her control -- saving the animals. She
> didn't work, she didn't tend to her home or family, she didn't tend well
> to herself. Sound familiar, carless agoraphobic pothead Skanky?)


What the **** are you talking
about? My career, family, pets
have not gone downhill. I tend
to myself well. It's interesting
that you want to see all vegetarians
as being as nuts as the Springeresque
one on tv. Please cite the study that
says dysfunction is typical of vegans.
You can't because there is none.

> As an extremist and absolutist pseudo-philosophy, veganism is both
> dogmatic and monolithic. There's not much difference philosophically,
> politically, tempermentally between vegans. There are only degrees
> separating the hard-core out-of-touch zealots and those who admire them
> (including wannabes).


You sure do have a hate-on for
vegans. Funny considering you
are one. LOL

> > It's like watching Jerry
> > Springer and coming to the conclusion
> > that all couples have bizarre problems.

>
> The only similarity is that both vegans and the typical Springer guest
> are dysfunctional.


You must be basing this on yourself
from when you identified as a vegan.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

Scented Nectar wrote:
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Skanky whined:
>>
>>>>For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>>>>because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>>>>would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>>>>vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
>>>>how they interact with normal people.
>>>>
>>>>The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
>>>>to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
>>>>household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
>>>>street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
>>>>"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
>>>>their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
>>>>spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>>>>
>>>>The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>>>things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
>>>>within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
>>>>so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
>>>>fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
>>>>avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
>>>>bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
>>>>things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
>>>>were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
>>>>and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>>>>anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>>>
>>>>Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
>>>>necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
>>>>assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
>>>>meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
>>>>condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
>>>>didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
>>>
>>>>from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>>
>>>>During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>>>hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
>>>>all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>>>>experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
>>>>(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
>>>>for her.
>>>>
>>>>As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
>>>>vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
>>>>rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
>>>>week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
>>>>she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
>>>>stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
>>>>exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>>>>
>>>>Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
>>>>the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
>>>>up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
>>>>normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
>>>>brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
>>>>maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
>>>>*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
>>>>****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>>>
>>>>The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
>>>>to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
>>>>about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
>>>>telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
>>>>as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>>>
>>>>I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
>>>>entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
>>>>especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
>>>>therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
>>>>interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
>>>>cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
>>>>with the Cajun family.
>>>
>>>You are assuming all vegans are like
>>>each other.

>>
>>They are, generally speaking. Vegans are conformists; they conform to a
>>doctrinaire, sanctimonious position that they have to save the world. I
>>should've pointed out above that Jackie's focus on the things most out
>>of her control and avoids dealing with the things most within her
>>control is typical of vegans. Vegans tend to be emotionally immature
>>(e.g., crying through repeated showings of AR videos) and obsess about
>>things they cannot control; they let the things they CAN control go
>>downhill -- whether it's a career, family, pet, etc. (And Jackie's case
>>shows how far and quickly someone can sink into the abyss. Her focus was
>>on things completely outside her control -- saving the animals. She
>>didn't work, she didn't tend to her home or family, she didn't tend well
>>to herself. Sound familiar, carless agoraphobic pothead Skanky?)

>
>
> What the **** are you talking
> about? My career, family, pets
> have not gone downhill.


Hard to go further downhill when you've already reached rock-bottom.

> I tend to myself well.


Bullshit. You continue to smoke pot despite knowing you're agoraphobic.
You've also admitted before to having eating disorders -- you suggested
you were way underweight at one point.

> It's interesting
> that you want to see all vegetarians


VEGANS. As opposed to vegetarians. Some vegetarians are nutty, too. But
as a rule, VEGANS are nuts.
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Scented Nectar wrote:
> > "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Skanky whined:
> >>
> >>>>For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
> >>>>because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
> >>>>would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
> >>>>vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe,

and
> >>>>how they interact with normal people.
> >>>>
> >>>>The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the

cat)
> >>>>to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
> >>>>household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on

the
> >>>>street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
> >>>>"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
> >>>>their stove and many of their possessions; her home became

increasingly
> >>>>spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
> >>>>
> >>>>The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
> >>>>things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
> >>>>within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears

doing
> >>>>so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
> >>>>fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
> >>>>avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
> >>>>bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other

mundane
> >>>>things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole

family
> >>>>were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with

Harold
> >>>>and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
> >>>>anti-"decorating," etc.).
> >>>>
> >>>>Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out

of
> >>>>necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
> >>>>assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
> >>>>meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
> >>>>condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
> >>>>didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch

Barbara
> >>>
> >>>>from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
> >>>
> >>>>During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
> >>>>hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to

an
> >>>>all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
> >>>>experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
> >>>>(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
> >>>>for her.
> >>>>
> >>>>As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year,

the
> >>>>vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from

animal
> >>>>rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an

entire
> >>>>week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even

though
> >>>>she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were

briefly
> >>>>stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they

didn't
> >>>>exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
> >>>>
> >>>>Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.

Since
> >>>>the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't

given
> >>>>up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi

(the
> >>>>normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
> >>>>brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
> >>>>maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
> >>>>*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her

how
> >>>>****ed up he really thinks she is.
> >>>>
> >>>>The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
> >>>>to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and

aggressive
> >>>>about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative

by
> >>>>telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
> >>>>as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
> >>>>
> >>>>I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's

very
> >>>>entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
> >>>>especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally,

it's
> >>>>therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit

from
> >>>>interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
> >>>>cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
> >>>>with the Cajun family.
> >>>
> >>>You are assuming all vegans are like
> >>>each other.
> >>
> >>They are, generally speaking. Vegans are conformists; they conform to a
> >>doctrinaire, sanctimonious position that they have to save the world. I
> >>should've pointed out above that Jackie's focus on the things most out
> >>of her control and avoids dealing with the things most within her
> >>control is typical of vegans. Vegans tend to be emotionally immature
> >>(e.g., crying through repeated showings of AR videos) and obsess about
> >>things they cannot control; they let the things they CAN control go
> >>downhill -- whether it's a career, family, pet, etc. (And Jackie's case
> >>shows how far and quickly someone can sink into the abyss. Her focus was
> >>on things completely outside her control -- saving the animals. She
> >>didn't work, she didn't tend to her home or family, she didn't tend well
> >>to herself. Sound familiar, carless agoraphobic pothead Skanky?)

> >
> >
> > What the **** are you talking
> > about? My career, family, pets
> > have not gone downhill.

>
> Hard to go further downhill when you've already reached rock-bottom.


In your dreams.

> > I tend to myself well.

>
> Bullshit. You continue to smoke pot despite knowing you're agoraphobic.
> You've also admitted before to having eating disorders -- you suggested
> you were way underweight at one point.


I have never had an eating disorder.
My weight as a kid (when I was eating
meat!) was under the norm. No fears
or illusions of being fat. No eating
disorder. My doctors never felt it was
a problem. I was never sick from it.
I never practiced bulimia or anything
similar. Since I don't smoke pot
before going into crowded areas, it
has nothing to do with agoraphobia.
Pot happens to calm me down and
mellow me out.

> > It's interesting
> > that you want to see all vegetarians

>
> VEGANS. As opposed to vegetarians. Some vegetarians are nutty, too. But
> as a rule, VEGANS are nuts.


Proof please. Now you're saying
that some vegetarians are alright,
only because you are currently
identifying as one. You did so in
a recent post.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/



  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dutch
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"RobDar" > wrote
> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....


cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals by various
processes, in the case of commercial agriculture, the use of machines for
ploughing, seeding, spraying and harvesting of crops, and the use of organic
and inorganic chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds. The animals
harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and rabbits, also smaller
mammals such as mice and other rodents such as shrews, moles and voles. Then
there are ground birds, lizards, frogs, and in the case of poisoning, any
animal that predates on them. We may even consider bees, ants, spiders,
grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of that genre, vegans certainly
consider them in their frequent semi-conscious moral calculations. The
collateral death toll to animals in food production arguably dwarfs the
number of direct deaths of livestock in food production. This all means
that the diet of the typical (sub)urban vegan or vegetarian who shops in
supermarkets could easily be related to more animal death and suffering than
a family who subsists largely on hunting. These often ignored facts cast
doubt on the vegan thought process which concludes that consuming even a
small amount of animal "product" is a moral stain on one's character.

The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following fallacy, called
"Denying the Antecedent":
1) Animal products cause animal suffering
2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
3) I don't cause animal suffering




> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>
>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>> behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.

>>
>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>
>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>> interesting.

>>
>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating mostly
>> meat.
>>
>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
>> vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from
>> the local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure that
>> once the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was tallied
>> up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>
>>

>
>





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usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

RobDar wrote:
> Does anyone still watch Jerry Springer?


Skanky probably does. She doesn't seem to do much else with her life but
get stoned and watch tv and pretend she's saving animals by eating
imported foods.

> There are a fair number of folks who think that crap is real...and the way
> it is!


Stop top-posting, you putz.

>>>For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>>>because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>>>would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>>>vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe, and
>>>how they interact with normal people.
>>>
>>>The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the cat)
>>>to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself and her
>>>household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to strangers on the
>>>street in an attempt to get them to live according to her peculiar
>>>"principles." Part of those principles at home included getting rid of
>>>their stove and many of their possessions; her home became increasingly
>>>spartan as she sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>>>
>>>The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>>things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things most
>>>within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but fears doing
>>>so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he expressed no
>>>fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also overworks to
>>>avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing,
>>>bitching, domineering, and protesting to clean house or do other mundane
>>>things; he's adopted the role of housemaid by default. The whole family
>>>were kind of drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold
>>>and the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>>>anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>>
>>>Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out of
>>>necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile, Jackie
>>>assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled with
>>>meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are, she's
>>>condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit, though, I
>>>didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan witch Barbara
>>>from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>>
>>>During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>>hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to an
>>>all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>>>experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other husband
>>>(Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so traumatic
>>>for her.
>>>
>>>As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year, the
>>>vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from animal
>>>rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for an entire
>>>week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them, even though
>>>she said she's seen them many times before. Though the kids were briefly
>>>stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't
>>>exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>>>
>>>Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed. Since
>>>the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but haven't given
>>>up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the stove Bobbi (the
>>>normal wife who ended up having to deal with milquetoast Harold) had
>>>brought in and has even resumed eating some cooked foods. She admitted
>>>maybe she was taking things too far. I'm sure her husband agrees she
>>>*had* taken things too far, even if he lacks the courage to tell her how
>>>****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>>
>>>The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They try
>>>to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and aggressive
>>>about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and informative by
>>>telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end up coming across
>>>as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>>
>>>I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's very
>>>entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population --
>>>especially those in areas without or with very few vegans. Finally, it's
>>>therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows seem to benefit from
>>>interacting with *normal* people. For example, Jackie is again eating
>>>cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat
>>>with the Cajun family.

>>
>>You are assuming all vegans are like
>>each other. It's like watching Jerry
>>Springer and coming to the conclusion
>>that all couples have bizarre problems.
>>
>>
>>--
>>SN
>>http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
>>
>>

>
>
>

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usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

RobDar top-posted:
> You are right C.J....the question is...do they hurt anyone?


Yes. Themselves. Those to whom they peddle lies. Animals. Etc.

<...>
> and you are right...all of this is okay...but as Mark Twain said...


He WROTE.

> the
> weakest of all things is a virtue that has not been tested in fire.


Why, you simple creatures, the weakest of all weak things is a
virtue which has not been tested in the fire.
-- "The Man that Corrupted Hadleyburg"

<...>
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
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rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"RobDar" > wrote in message
...
> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....

================
Collateral deaths. Vegetables are full of them. Millions upon
millions upon millions of animals die in crop production. Vegans
never seem to look at that issue. In this case, I would say that
overall the hunter family was causing fewer animal deaths for
their diets than the fruitcake vegan loons. One deer could feed
the family many meals for that one death. All vegans seem to
have is a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.'
They never take into account the death and suffering that takes
place for their foods, and so they never compare any of their
foods to each other.




> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>
>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N
>>> one behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.

>>
>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>
>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure
>>> more interesting.

>>
>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and
>> eating mostly meat.
>>
>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts,
>> fruit, vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of
>> their food from the local woods. The issue of cds never came
>> up, but I am quite sure that once the hidden collateral cost
>> in animal death and suffering was tallied up, the hunter
>> family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>
>>

>
>



  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Beach Runner
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode



usual suspect wrote:

> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off early
>>> because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary. This show
>>> would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of encountering a
>>> vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they think and believe,
>>> and how they interact with normal people.

Many people consider these reality shows the mark of stupidity.


>>>
>>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the
>>> cat) to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself
>>> and her household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to
>>> strangers on the street in an attempt to get them to live according
>>> to her peculiar "principles." Part of those principles at home
>>> included getting rid of their stove and many of their possessions;
>>> her home became increasingly spartan as she sank deeper into her
>>> kooky vegan abyss.
>>>


She's obviously obsessed and not typical.
>>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things
>>> most within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but
>>> fears doing so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he
>>> expressed no fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold also
>>> overworks to avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy
>>> navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching, domineering, and protesting to
>>> clean house or do other mundane things; he's adopted the role of
>>> housemaid by default. The whole family were kind of drifting apart
>>> and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and the daughter afraid
>>> to speak up about any of the changes (dietary, anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>>

There are crazy vegans. The show found one. It increased their ratings.

>>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out
>>> of necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile,
>>> Jackie assesses her new situation by going through the fridge (filled
>>> with meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most vegans are,
>>> she's condescending in sizing up her new family. To her credit,
>>> though, I didn't think she was nearly as condescending as the vegan
>>> witch Barbara from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>>
>>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go to
>>> an all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the whole
>>> experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other
>>> husband (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so
>>> traumatic for her.
>>>
>>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year,
>>> the vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos from
>>> animal rights groups even after preaching to them about veganism for
>>> an entire week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while watching them,
>>> even though she said she's seen them many times before. Though the
>>> kids were briefly stunned by such portrayals of farming (which are
>>> atypical), they didn't exactly embrace the idea of eating nuts and
>>> fruits.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.
>>> Since the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but
>>> haven't given up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept the
>>> stove Bobbi (the normal wife who ended up having to deal with
>>> milquetoast Harold) had brought in and has even resumed eating some
>>> cooked foods. She admitted maybe she was taking things too far. I'm
>>> sure her husband agrees she *had* taken things too far, even if he
>>> lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>>
>>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They
>>> try to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and
>>> aggressive about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and
>>> informative by telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end
>>> up coming across as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>>

You take an extreme example and make it the rule.

>>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's
>>> very entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider population
>>> -- especially those in areas without or with very few vegans.
>>> Finally, it's therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these shows
>>> seem to benefit from interacting with *normal* people. For example,
>>> Jackie is again eating cooked food. The vegan mother in the Fox show
>>> (Barbara) even ate meat with the Cajun family.

>>



>>
>>
>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>> behavior.

>
>
> The Koplin family from Arizona are much more typical of vegans,
> especially raw faddists, than they're atypical.


Hardly. I know many vegans. I can enjoy a wonderful meal with my
father, who's still fishing and riding his bike close to 80s.


Exercise is the fountain of youth.

And your stuff about old geezer is absurd. Yes, I got hit on a
residential street by a car going 90 mph, but a week before it I was 49
and running 10K races at 7 minute miles and pushing weights. I'm back to
running shorter distances, and using machines, but I am doing what it
takes to recover. Your insults are bizarre.

My hair may be gray, but I don't take a bottle of shoe polish. Had I
not been so young and healthy for my age I would have died. My blood
chemistry is great and my organs are all young and healthy.

And I don't feel a need to go to a group of people and be the nastiest
person I've run into.
>
>> How prejudicial and bigoted.

>
>
> Vegans ARE prejudiced bigots.
>


Some might be. You are.
>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>> interesting.

>
>
> Irrelevant. I pointed out that the inclusion of nuts makes shows like
> this more interesting (see my first point in the last paragraph, dumb
> ass). Vegans are kooks. They're extremists. They don't mesh well with
> normal people. That's why they tend to make shows like this interesting
> and amusing.

No, they took very extreme cases to raise their ratings.
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
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usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

Beach Runner wrote:
>>>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off
>>>> early because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary.
>>>> This show would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of
>>>> encountering a vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they
>>>> think and believe, and how they interact with normal people.

>
> Many people consider these reality shows the mark of stupidity.


Your posts set a new watermark for stupidity. Congratulations.

>>>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the
>>>> cat) to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself
>>>> and her household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to
>>>> strangers on the street in an attempt to get them to live according
>>>> to her peculiar "principles." Part of those principles at home
>>>> included getting rid of their stove and many of their possessions;
>>>> her home became increasingly spartan as she sank deeper into her
>>>> kooky vegan abyss.

>
> She's obviously obsessed


Veganism IS an obsession.

> and not typical.


Ipse dixit. Since veganism is an obsessive eating disorder, it's fair to
assume Jackie is representative of most (if not all) vegans. I noted
before that there may be differences of degree, but there's not much
deviation beyond the norm.

>>>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things
>>>> most within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but
>>>> fears doing so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he
>>>> expressed no fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold
>>>> also overworks to avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy
>>>> navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching, domineering, and protesting to
>>>> clean house or do other mundane things; he's adopted the role of
>>>> housemaid by default. The whole family were kind of drifting apart
>>>> and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and the daughter afraid
>>>> to speak up about any of the changes (dietary, anti-"decorating,"
>>>> etc.).

>
> There are crazy vegans.


Veganism is either a mental disorder on its own or a symptom of
underlying mental issues. People who want to be vegan, including you and
Skanky, are mentally unwell.

>>>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt out
>>>> of necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and fragile,
>>>> Jackie assesses her new situation by going through the fridge
>>>> (filled with meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As most
>>>> vegans are, she's condescending in sizing up her new family. To her
>>>> credit, though, I didn't think she was nearly as condescending as
>>>> the vegan witch Barbara from Fox's _Trading Spouses_ last year.
>>>>
>>>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go
>>>> to an all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the
>>>> whole experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the other
>>>> husband (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it would be so
>>>> traumatic for her.
>>>>
>>>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year,
>>>> the vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos
>>>> from animal rights groups even after preaching to them about
>>>> veganism for an entire week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while
>>>> watching them, even though she said she's seen them many times
>>>> before. Though the kids were briefly stunned by such portrayals of
>>>> farming (which are atypical), they didn't exactly embrace the idea
>>>> of eating nuts and fruits.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.
>>>> Since the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but
>>>> haven't given up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept
>>>> the stove Bobbi (the normal wife who ended up having to deal with
>>>> milquetoast Harold) had brought in and has even resumed eating some
>>>> cooked foods. She admitted maybe she was taking things too far. I'm
>>>> sure her husband agrees she *had* taken things too far, even if he
>>>> lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>>>
>>>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They
>>>> try to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and
>>>> aggressive about it. They think they're doing something virtuous and
>>>> informative by telling others not to eat meat, but vegans always end
>>>> up coming across as emotive, uninformed jackasses.

>
> You take an extreme example and make it the rule.


Veganism IS an extreme. It is the rule.

>>>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's
>>>> very entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider
>>>> population -- especially those in areas without or with very few
>>>> vegans. Finally, it's therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these
>>>> shows seem to benefit from interacting with *normal* people. For
>>>> example, Jackie is again eating cooked food. The vegan mother in the
>>>> Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat with the Cajun family.
>>>
>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>> behavior.

>>
>> The Koplin family from Arizona are much more typical of vegans,
>> especially raw faddists, than they're atypical.

>
> Hardly. I know many vegans. I can enjoy a wonderful meal with my
> father, who's still fishing and riding his bike close to 80s.


Your father isn't a vegan, dipshit. Vegans don't fish. Recreational
fishing is one of the targets of their irrational, misplaced, uninformed
anger.

> Exercise is the fountain of youth.


Exercise isn't the issue at hand, nor is it something about which we
disagree (for the most part).

> And your stuff about old geezer is absurd.


No, you're a doddering old coot. You can't keep straight your list of
"bullies" so you confuse the AMA for FDA, and then you continue your
bullshit by suggesting one or both is a "monopoly" even after being
given the definition of that word. Your posts ramble, they occasionally
are on topic, and too frequently they have NOTHING to do with the
subject. You ARE a geezer.

> My hair may be gray,


I don't give a shit if it's purple or green or if you have enough
piercings to set off a metal detector three miles away. I'm complaining
about your slovenly style of posting and your dissheveled use of the
English language, not about your damn hair or appearance.

> And I don't feel a need to go to a group of people and be the nastiest
> person I've run into.


Then don't. No one's asked you to do that.

>>> How prejudicial and bigoted.

>>
>>
>>
>> Vegans ARE prejudiced bigots.

>
> Some might be.


They all are. It's part of the mindset that drives someone to assume
moral superiority by what does or doesn't get chewed and swallowed.

>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>> interesting.

>>
>> Irrelevant. I pointed out that the inclusion of nuts makes shows like
>> this more interesting (see my first point in the last paragraph, dumb
>> ass). Vegans are kooks. They're extremists. They don't mesh well with
>> normal people. That's why they tend to make shows like this
>> interesting and amusing.

>
> No, they took very extreme cases to raise their ratings.


That's why I suggested more shows with vegans, because veganism is an
extreme and its adherents are extremists.


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
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RobDar
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough educated on
the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me, I am going to look into
this!
"Dutch" > wrote in message
news:g7Mef.520964$tl2.159457@pd7tw3no...
>
> "RobDar" > wrote
>> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....

>
> cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals by various
> processes, in the case of commercial agriculture, the use of machines for
> ploughing, seeding, spraying and harvesting of crops, and the use of
> organic and inorganic chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds.
> The animals harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and rabbits,
> also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents such as shrews, moles
> and voles. Then there are ground birds, lizards, frogs, and in the case of
> poisoning, any animal that predates on them. We may even consider bees,
> ants, spiders, grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of that genre,
> vegans certainly consider them in their frequent semi-conscious moral
> calculations. The collateral death toll to animals in food production
> arguably dwarfs the number of direct deaths of livestock in food
> production. This all means that the diet of the typical (sub)urban vegan
> or vegetarian who shops in supermarkets could easily be related to more
> animal death and suffering than a family who subsists largely on hunting.
> These often ignored facts cast doubt on the vegan thought process which
> concludes that consuming even a small amount of animal "product" is a
> moral stain on one's character.
>
> The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following fallacy, called
> "Denying the Antecedent":
> 1) Animal products cause animal suffering
> 2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
> 3) I don't cause animal suffering
>
>
>
>
>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>
>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>>> behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>
>>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>>
>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating mostly
>>> meat.
>>>
>>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
>>> vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from
>>> the local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure
>>> that once the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was
>>> tallied up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dutch
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

"RobDar" > wrote
>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough educated on
>the topic to comment intelligently


A very refreshing outlook, you obviously aren't a vegan.

....but believe me, I am going to look into
> this!


There is not much documentation on collateral deaths of animals. Up until
recently it seemed like an irrelevant statistic. Here is one web page that
discusses this issue
http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob...-LeastHarm.htm

> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> news:g7Mef.520964$tl2.159457@pd7tw3no...
>>
>> "RobDar" > wrote
>>> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....

>>
>> cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals by various
>> processes, in the case of commercial agriculture, the use of machines for
>> ploughing, seeding, spraying and harvesting of crops, and the use of
>> organic and inorganic chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds.
>> The animals harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and rabbits,
>> also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents such as shrews, moles
>> and voles. Then there are ground birds, lizards, frogs, and in the case
>> of poisoning, any animal that predates on them. We may even consider
>> bees, ants, spiders, grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of that
>> genre, vegans certainly consider them in their frequent semi-conscious
>> moral calculations. The collateral death toll to animals in food
>> production arguably dwarfs the number of direct deaths of livestock in
>> food production. This all means that the diet of the typical (sub)urban
>> vegan or vegetarian who shops in supermarkets could easily be related to
>> more animal death and suffering than a family who subsists largely on
>> hunting. These often ignored facts cast doubt on the vegan thought
>> process which concludes that consuming even a small amount of animal
>> "product" is a moral stain on one's character.
>>
>> The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following fallacy, called
>> "Denying the Antecedent":
>> 1) Animal products cause animal suffering
>> 2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
>> 3) I don't cause animal suffering
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>>> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>>>> behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>>
>>>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>>>
>>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>>>> interesting.
>>>>
>>>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating mostly
>>>> meat.
>>>>
>>>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
>>>> vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from
>>>> the local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure
>>>> that once the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was
>>>> tallied up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode


"RobDar" > wrote in message
...
>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
>educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me,
>I am going to look into this!



Here's a few sites to start your research..


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf


problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html








> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> news:g7Mef.520964$tl2.159457@pd7tw3no...
>>
>> "RobDar" > wrote
>>> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....

>>
>> cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals by
>> various processes, in the case of commercial agriculture, the
>> use of machines for ploughing, seeding, spraying and
>> harvesting of crops, and the use of organic and inorganic
>> chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds. The animals
>> harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and rabbits,
>> also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents such as
>> shrews, moles and voles. Then there are ground birds, lizards,
>> frogs, and in the case of poisoning, any animal that predates
>> on them. We may even consider bees, ants, spiders,
>> grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of that genre, vegans
>> certainly consider them in their frequent semi-conscious moral
>> calculations. The collateral death toll to animals in food
>> production arguably dwarfs the number of direct deaths of
>> livestock in food production. This all means that the diet of
>> the typical (sub)urban vegan or vegetarian who shops in
>> supermarkets could easily be related to more animal death and
>> suffering than a family who subsists largely on hunting. These
>> often ignored facts cast doubt on the vegan thought process
>> which concludes that consuming even a small amount of animal
>> "product" is a moral stain on one's character.
>>
>> The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following
>> fallacy, called "Denying the Antecedent":
>> 1) Animal products cause animal suffering
>> 2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
>> 3) I don't cause animal suffering
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>>> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every
>>>>> VEG*N one behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>>
>>>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>>>
>>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure
>>>>> more interesting.
>>>>
>>>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and
>>>> eating mostly meat.
>>>>
>>>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts,
>>>> fruit, vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most
>>>> of their food from the local woods. The issue of cds never
>>>> came up, but I am quite sure that once the hidden collateral
>>>> cost in animal death and suffering was tallied up, the
>>>> hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Leif Erikson
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

rick wrote:
> "RobDar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
> >educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me,
> >I am going to look into this!

>
>
> Here's a few sites to start your research..


That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all of them?

I picked one more or less at random,
http://www.panna.org/resources/docum...Cotton.dv.html,
and saw some staggering numbers:

Fish killed by pesticide run-off: In 1995, pesticide-contaminated
runoff from cotton fields killed at least 240,000 fish in Alabama.
Shortly after farmers had applied pesticides containing endosulfan and
methyl parathion to cotton fields, heavy rains washed them into the
water. The Alabama Department of Agriculture and Industries stated that
there was no indication that the pesticides were applied in an illegal
manner.

Livestock: Meat and milk contaminated by pesticide-laden cotton straw.
In 1994, Australian beef was found to be contaminated with the cotton
insecticide Helix® (chlorfluazuron), most likely because cattle had
been fed contaminated cotton straw. In response, several countries
suspended beef imports from Australia. One year later, farmers were
alarmed to discover that newborn calves were also contaminated with
Helix, apparently because it was passed through their mother's milk. In
a similar case, 23 farms in New South Wales and Queensland were placed
in quarantine after inspectors discovered high levels of endosulfan in
beef cattle, possibly due to endosulfan spray drift contaminating
grazing land. Since 1987, Australian beef exporters have lost millions
of dollars due to concerns about chemical contamination.

Birds: It has been estimated that pesticides unintentionally kill at
least 67 million birds in the U.S. each year, and it's likely they
kill many more. Estimates of bird kills from pesticides are notoriously
low because many birds remain hidden in brush, are carried away by
scavengers or die away from treated areas where they won't be
counted. In one case, a breeding colony of laughing gulls near Corpus
Christi, Texas, was devastated when methyl parathion was applied to
cotton three miles away. More than 100 dead adults were found and 25%
of the colony's chicks were killed.

  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode


"Leif Erikson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
rick wrote:
> "RobDar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
> >educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe
> >me,
> >I am going to look into this!

>
>
> Here's a few sites to start your research..


That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all of
them?
==============================
Just from my various research on the subject. I did just go
through the list to verify links and found several links no
longer work, so I will have to rebuild it.

The numbers are amazing given the fact that nobody is really
researching the total problem. many of these are just results of
specific occurances, and no industry-wide research seems to be
done. But then, there really has been no cry for that research.
The farmers have no incentive to do it, the petro-chemical
industry has no incentive to do it, and the Gob has no real
incentive to do it. The only that should care, vegan/AR loons,
and demand these studies are strangly quite on the issue. Of
course, it would blow their house of cards down and destroy their
simple rule for their simple minds.



I picked one more or less at random,
http://www.panna.org/resources/docum...Cotton.dv.html,
and saw some staggering numbers:

Fish killed by pesticide run-off: In 1995, pesticide-contaminated
runoff from cotton fields killed at least 240,000 fish in
Alabama.
Shortly after farmers had applied pesticides containing
endosulfan and
methyl parathion to cotton fields, heavy rains washed them into
the
water. The Alabama Department of Agriculture and Industries
stated that
there was no indication that the pesticides were applied in an
illegal
manner.

Livestock: Meat and milk contaminated by pesticide-laden cotton
straw.
In 1994, Australian beef was found to be contaminated with the
cotton
insecticide Helix® (chlorfluazuron), most likely because cattle
had
been fed contaminated cotton straw. In response, several
countries
suspended beef imports from Australia. One year later, farmers
were
alarmed to discover that newborn calves were also contaminated
with
Helix, apparently because it was passed through their mother's
milk. In
a similar case, 23 farms in New South Wales and Queensland were
placed
in quarantine after inspectors discovered high levels of
endosulfan in
beef cattle, possibly due to endosulfan spray drift contaminating
grazing land. Since 1987, Australian beef exporters have lost
millions
of dollars due to concerns about chemical contamination.

Birds: It has been estimated that pesticides unintentionally kill
at
least 67 million birds in the U.S. each year, and it's likely
they
kill many more. Estimates of bird kills from pesticides are
notoriously
low because many birds remain hidden in brush, are carried away
by
scavengers or die away from treated areas where they won't be
counted. In one case, a breeding colony of laughing gulls near
Corpus
Christi, Texas, was devastated when methyl parathion was applied
to
cotton three miles away. More than 100 dead adults were found and
25%
of the colony's chicks were killed.




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
RobDar
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

A few sites??? LOL!
"rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "RobDar" > wrote in message
> ...
>>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough educated on
>>the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me, I am going to look
>>into this!

>
>
> Here's a few sites to start your research..
>
>
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
> http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
> http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
> http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
> http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
> http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
> http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
> http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
> http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
> http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
> http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
> http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
> http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
> http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
> http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
> http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
>
> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
> http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
> http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
> http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
> http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf
>
>
> problems with cotton.
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm
>
> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
> /natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>
>
> here's are a couple
> dealing with power and communications.
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>> news:g7Mef.520964$tl2.159457@pd7tw3no...
>>>
>>> "RobDar" > wrote
>>>> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....
>>>
>>> cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals by various
>>> processes, in the case of commercial agriculture, the use of machines
>>> for ploughing, seeding, spraying and harvesting of crops, and the use of
>>> organic and inorganic chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds.
>>> The animals harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and
>>> rabbits, also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents such as
>>> shrews, moles and voles. Then there are ground birds, lizards, frogs,
>>> and in the case of poisoning, any animal that predates on them. We may
>>> even consider bees, ants, spiders, grasshoppers, worms, and other
>>> animals of that genre, vegans certainly consider them in their frequent
>>> semi-conscious moral calculations. The collateral death toll to animals
>>> in food production arguably dwarfs the number of direct deaths of
>>> livestock in food production. This all means that the diet of the
>>> typical (sub)urban vegan or vegetarian who shops in supermarkets could
>>> easily be related to more animal death and suffering than a family who
>>> subsists largely on hunting. These often ignored facts cast doubt on the
>>> vegan thought process which concludes that consuming even a small amount
>>> of animal "product" is a moral stain on one's character.
>>>
>>> The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following fallacy, called
>>> "Denying the Antecedent":
>>> 1) Animal products cause animal suffering
>>> 2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
>>> 3) I don't cause animal suffering
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>>>> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>>>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>>>>> behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>>>
>>>>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and eating
>>>>> mostly meat.
>>>>>
>>>>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts, fruit,
>>>>> vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most of their food from
>>>>> the local woods. The issue of cds never came up, but I am quite sure
>>>>> that once the hidden collateral cost in animal death and suffering was
>>>>> tallied up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode



usual suspect wrote:
> Beach Runner wrote:
>
>>>>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off
>>>>> early because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary.
>>>>> This show would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of
>>>>> encountering a vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they
>>>>> think and believe, and how they interact with normal people.

>>
>>
>> Many people consider these reality shows the mark of stupidity.

>
>
> Your posts set a new watermark for stupidity. Congratulations.
>


Just another groundless insult.

>>>>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the
>>>>> cat) to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond herself
>>>>> and her household: she protests meat and hands out leaflets to
>>>>> strangers on the street in an attempt to get them to live according
>>>>> to her peculiar "principles." Part of those principles at home
>>>>> included getting rid of their stove and many of their possessions;
>>>>> her home became increasingly spartan as she sank deeper into her
>>>>> kooky vegan abyss.

>>
>>
>> She's obviously obsessed

>
>
> Veganism IS an obsession.
>
>> and not typical.

and on the increase.

see Washington Post
http://159.54.227.3/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...510230377/1004

>
>
> Ipse dixit. Since veganism is an obsessive eating disorder, it's fair to
> assume Jackie is representative of most (if not all) vegans. I noted
> before that there may be differences of degree, but there's not much
> deviation beyond the norm.
>
>>>>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>>>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things
>>>>> most within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but
>>>>> fears doing so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note: he
>>>>> expressed no fear of consequences to his health from it). Harold
>>>>> also overworks to avoid coming home because Jackie is too busy
>>>>> navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching, domineering, and protesting to
>>>>> clean house or do other mundane things; he's adopted the role of
>>>>> housemaid by default. The whole family were kind of drifting apart
>>>>> and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and the daughter
>>>>> afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>>>>> anti-"decorating," etc.).

>>
>>
>> There are crazy vegans.

>
>
> Veganism is either a mental disorder on its own or a symptom of
> underlying mental issues. People who want to be vegan, including you and
> Skanky, are mentally unwell.


Show where it is considered a mental disorder.

>
>>>>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt
>>>>> out of necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and
>>>>> fragile, Jackie assesses her new situation by going through the
>>>>> fridge (filled with meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As
>>>>> most vegans are, she's condescending in sizing up her new family.
>>>>> To her credit, though, I didn't think she was nearly as
>>>>> condescending as the vegan witch Barbara from Fox's _Trading
>>>>> Spouses_ last year.
>>>>>
>>>>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>>>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go
>>>>> to an all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the
>>>>> whole experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the
>>>>> other husband (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it
>>>>> would be so traumatic for her.
>>>>>
>>>>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last year,
>>>>> the vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some videos
>>>>> from animal rights groups even after preaching to them about
>>>>> veganism for an entire week. Jackie became an emotional wreck while
>>>>> watching them, even though she said she's seen them many times
>>>>> before. Though the kids were briefly stunned by such portrayals of
>>>>> farming (which are atypical), they didn't exactly embrace the idea
>>>>> of eating nuts and fruits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.
>>>>> Since the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but
>>>>> haven't given up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept
>>>>> the stove Bobbi (the normal wife who ended up having to deal with
>>>>> milquetoast Harold) had brought in and has even resumed eating some
>>>>> cooked foods. She admitted maybe she was taking things too far. I'm
>>>>> sure her husband agrees she *had* taken things too far, even if he
>>>>> lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed up he really thinks she is.
>>>>>
>>>>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They
>>>>> try to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and
>>>>> aggressive about it. They think they're doing something virtuous
>>>>> and informative by telling others not to eat meat, but vegans
>>>>> always end up coming across as emotive, uninformed jackasses.

>>
>>
>> You take an extreme example and make it the rule.

>
>
> Veganism IS an extreme. It is the rule.
>

Your opinion.
>>>>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's
>>>>> very entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider
>>>>> population -- especially those in areas without or with very few
>>>>> vegans. Finally, it's therapeutic in the sense that vegans on these
>>>>> shows seem to benefit from interacting with *normal* people. For
>>>>> example, Jackie is again eating cooked food. The vegan mother in
>>>>> the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat with the Cajun family.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>>> behavior.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Koplin family from Arizona are much more typical of vegans,
>>> especially raw faddists, than they're atypical.

>>


Less typical does not make one sick. She was an irrational individual
incapable of accepting others.
>>
>> Hardly. I know many vegans. I can enjoy a wonderful meal with my
>> father, who's still fishing and riding his bike close to 80s.

>
>
> Your father isn't a vegan, dipshit. Vegans don't fish. Recreational
> fishing is one of the targets of their irrational, misplaced, uninformed
> anger.


I know that. He still fishes and is active and eats a variety of meats.
Too bad, as he has had to have bypass surgery. But yes, we can get
together in mixed company and respect one another. My closest friend is
not a vegetarian, we order he eats what he eats, I eat what I eat.
We respect each other. We may discuss our choices. Btw, he had a heart
attack at 39. A top notch engineer, brilliant. I do try to get him to
go swimming as he has a pool and has feet problems.

>
>> Exercise is the fountain of youth.

>
>
> Exercise isn't the issue at hand, nor is it something about which we
> disagree (for the most part).
>
>> And your stuff about old geezer is absurd.

>
>
> No, you're a doddering old coot. You can't keep straight your list of
> "bullies" so you confuse the AMA for FDA, and then you continue your
> bullshit by suggesting one or both is a "monopoly" even after being
> given the definition of that word. Your posts ramble, they occasionally
> are on topic, and too frequently they have NOTHING to do with the
> subject. You ARE a geezer.




I confused the two simply in context. It was a mistake. I'm hardly a
geezer. Everyone who knows me, says I'm heart healthy and age healthy
for my age. I do have osteoporosis, but so does my meat eating older
brother, and my dairy eating son has signs of osteopina. It's genetic.

>
>> My hair may be gray,

>
>
> I don't give a shit if it's purple or green or if you have enough
> piercings to set off a metal detector three miles away. I'm complaining
> about your slovenly style of posting and your dissheveled use of the
> English language, not about your damn hair or appearance.
>
>> And I don't feel a need to go to a group of people and be the nastiest
>> person I've run into.

>
>
> Then don't. No one's asked you to do that.
>
>>>> How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vegans ARE prejudiced bigots.

>>
>>
>> Some might be.

>
>
> They all are. It's part of the mindset that drives someone to assume
> moral superiority by what does or doesn't get chewed and swallowed.
>
>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>>> interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Irrelevant. I pointed out that the inclusion of nuts makes shows like
>>> this more interesting (see my first point in the last paragraph, dumb
>>> ass). Vegans are kooks. They're extremists. They don't mesh well with
>>> normal people. That's why they tend to make shows like this
>>> interesting and amusing.

>>
>>
>> No, they took very extreme cases to raise their ratings.

>
>
> That's why I suggested more shows with vegans, because veganism is an
> extreme and its adherents are extremists.


Perhaps they look at the world picture of hunger and efficiency and
actually care about animals. I know you have presented excellent
articles on collateral damage, but it takes more grain to feed livestock
than eat it directly. So your argument disproves itself.

  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode

Stupid Beach Runner wrote:
>>>>>> For benefit of those who missed this show (or who turned it off
>>>>>> early because she felt picked on again), here's a brief summary.
>>>>>> This show would benefit anyone who's never had the misfortune of
>>>>>> encountering a vegan. It showed what vegans are like, what they
>>>>>> think and believe, and how they interact with normal people.
>>>
>>> Many people consider these reality shows the mark of stupidity.

>>
>> Your posts set a new watermark for stupidity. Congratulations.

>
> Just another groundless insult.


It's not groundless at all -- you've admitted to how horrid your posts
are when you take drugs. I don't expect you to concede to your errors of
fact or logical fallacies because you're simply not bright enough to
distinguish between facts and your beliefs. And before you suggest that,
too, is groundless, consider that you consider Neal Barnard to be an
expert in nutrition despite his psychiatry background, his relationship
with the co-founder of PETA, his and his group's involvement in various
endeavors with PETA, and his lack of distinction between causes and
effects in what he writes (see the exchange between shev and me in the
"some truth about..." thread related to that).

>>>>>> The vegan wife, Jackie, forces her entire household (including the
>>>>>> cat) to consume a raw vegan diet. Her actions extend beyond
>>>>>> herself and her household: she protests meat and hands out
>>>>>> leaflets to strangers on the street in an attempt to get them to
>>>>>> live according to her peculiar "principles." Part of those
>>>>>> principles at home included getting rid of their stove and many of
>>>>>> their possessions; her home became increasingly spartan as she
>>>>>> sank deeper into her kooky vegan abyss.
>>>
>>> She's obviously obsessed

>>
>> Veganism IS an obsession.
>>
>>> and not typical.

>
> and on the increase.


Wrong.
With the number of serious vegetarians stagnating at less than
2% according to some estimates, the market potential may be just
too small, though, for a QSR selling to a mass market.
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content.asp?contentid=4949

> see Washington Post


No, dumb ass, your link goes to _The Olympian_ from Olympia, Washington.

> http://159.54.227.3/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...510230377/1004


The article claims "Vegetarian and vegan diets are becoming more common
among teenagers," and notes how these diets can be dangerous to teens:
Parents are right to be concerned for their children's nutrition
because the teen years have greater nutritional requirements for
growth and optimum health. Eating a vegetarian or vegan diet can put a
teen at even higher risk for deficiencies.

The article then outlines specific areas of deficiencies and offers
suggestions and alternatives. It doesn't give data on how many teens
flirt with vegetarianism (or worse, veganism), nor does it address the
number of teens or young adults who resume eating meat. For most, it's a
phase. For others, it's a call for attention just like dying hair green
might be. For very few, though, does it ever become a lifelong pursuit.

>> Ipse dixit. Since veganism is an obsessive eating disorder, it's fair
>> to assume Jackie is representative of most (if not all) vegans. I
>> noted before that there may be differences of degree, but there's not
>> much deviation beyond the norm.
>>
>>>>>> The best way to explain her average day is that she focuses on the
>>>>>> things most out of her control and avoids dealing with the things
>>>>>> most within her control. Her husband Harold WANTS to eat meat but
>>>>>> fears doing so for the consequences he'd face from Jackie (note:
>>>>>> he expressed no fear of consequences to his health from it).
>>>>>> Harold also overworks to avoid coming home because Jackie is too
>>>>>> busy navel-gazing, sun-gazing, bitching, domineering, and
>>>>>> protesting to clean house or do other mundane things; he's adopted
>>>>>> the role of housemaid by default. The whole family were kind of
>>>>>> drifting apart and becoming more dysfunctional, with Harold and
>>>>>> the daughter afraid to speak up about any of the changes (dietary,
>>>>>> anti-"decorating," etc.).
>>>
>>> There are crazy vegans.

>>
>> Veganism is either a mental disorder on its own or a symptom of
>> underlying mental issues. People who want to be vegan, including you
>> and Skanky, are mentally unwell.

>
> Show where it is considered a mental disorder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia
http://www.orthorexia.com/

>>>>>> Jackie ends up trading places with a wife from a family who hunt
>>>>>> out of necessity. With her vegan psyche already very weak and
>>>>>> fragile, Jackie assesses her new situation by going through the
>>>>>> fridge (filled with meat) and the home (filled with taxidermy). As
>>>>>> most vegans are, she's condescending in sizing up her new family.
>>>>>> To her credit, though, I didn't think she was nearly as
>>>>>> condescending as the vegan witch Barbara from Fox's _Trading
>>>>>> Spouses_ last year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During one memorable segment, Jackie became emotional -- nearly
>>>>>> hysterical -- trying to explain how difficult it was for her to go
>>>>>> to an all raw diet. She offered some psychobabble comparing the
>>>>>> whole experience to alcoholism. To that bizarre melodrama, the
>>>>>> other husband (Ricky) apologized and said he didn't realize it
>>>>>> would be so traumatic for her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As in the _Trading Spouses_ episodes on Fox in this vein last
>>>>>> year, the vegan wife felt compelled to show her new family some
>>>>>> videos from animal rights groups even after preaching to them
>>>>>> about veganism for an entire week. Jackie became an emotional
>>>>>> wreck while watching them, even though she said she's seen them
>>>>>> many times before. Though the kids were briefly stunned by such
>>>>>> portrayals of farming (which are atypical), they didn't exactly
>>>>>> embrace the idea of eating nuts and fruits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ultimately, her attempts to convert the family in Kentucky failed.
>>>>>> Since the swap, they've added more vegetables to their meals but
>>>>>> haven't given up hunting or eating meat. Meanwhile, Jackie's kept
>>>>>> the stove Bobbi (the normal wife who ended up having to deal with
>>>>>> milquetoast Harold) had brought in and has even resumed eating
>>>>>> some cooked foods. She admitted maybe she was taking things too
>>>>>> far. I'm sure her husband agrees she *had* taken things too far,
>>>>>> even if he lacks the courage to tell her how ****ed up he really
>>>>>> thinks she is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The moral of the story is that vegans DO take things too far. They
>>>>>> try to proselytize others, and they're usually very emotional and
>>>>>> aggressive about it. They think they're doing something virtuous
>>>>>> and informative by telling others not to eat meat, but vegans
>>>>>> always end up coming across as emotive, uninformed jackasses.
>>>
>>> You take an extreme example and make it the rule.

>>
>> Veganism IS an extreme. It is the rule.

>
> Your opinion.


Veganism sure as hell isn't mainstream, you pansy.

>>>>>> I also think vegans should go on more shows like this. First, it's
>>>>>> very entertaining. Second, it's illuminating for the wider
>>>>>> population -- especially those in areas without or with very few
>>>>>> vegans. Finally, it's therapeutic in the sense that vegans on
>>>>>> these shows seem to benefit from interacting with *normal* people.
>>>>>> For example, Jackie is again eating cooked food. The vegan mother
>>>>>> in the Fox show (Barbara) even ate meat with the Cajun family.
>>>>>
>>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every VEG*N one
>>>>> behavior.
>>>>
>>>> The Koplin family from Arizona are much more typical of vegans,
>>>> especially raw faddists, than they're atypical.

>
> Less typical does not make one sick.


I didn't say it did.

> She was an irrational individual
> incapable of accepting others.


Right -- she's vegan.

>>> Hardly. I know many vegans. I can enjoy a wonderful meal with my
>>> father, who's still fishing and riding his bike close to 80s.

>>
>> Your father isn't a vegan, dipshit. Vegans don't fish. Recreational
>> fishing is one of the targets of their irrational, misplaced,
>> uninformed anger.

>
> I know that.


Then stop dropping your father into discussions about vegans, dummy.

> He still fishes and is active and eats a variety of meats.


Good for him.

> Too bad, as he has had to have bypass surgery.


He's elderly. It has nothing to do with his diet, retard.

> But yes, we can get
> together in mixed company and respect one another. My closest friend is
> not a vegetarian, we order he eats what he eats, I eat what I eat.
> We respect each other. We may discuss our choices.


Meaning, you're likely to give him shit about eating meat.

> Btw, he had a heart attack at 39.


What does this have to do with the issue at hand, Mr Irrelevant Anecdote?

> A top notch engineer, brilliant.


What does this have to do with the issue at hand, Mr Irrelevant Anecdote?

> I do try to get him to
> go swimming as he has a pool and has feet problems.


What does this have to do with the issue at hand, Mr Irrelevant Anecdote?

>>> Exercise is the fountain of youth.

>>
>> Exercise isn't the issue at hand, nor is it something about which we
>> disagree (for the most part).
>>
>>> And your stuff about old geezer is absurd.

>>
>> No, you're a doddering old coot. You can't keep straight your list of
>> "bullies" so you confuse the AMA for FDA, and then you continue your
>> bullshit by suggesting one or both is a "monopoly" even after being
>> given the definition of that word. Your posts ramble, they
>> occasionally are on topic, and too frequently they have NOTHING to do
>> with the subject. You ARE a geezer.

>
> I confused the two simply in context.


Bullshit. Stop lying.

> It was a mistake.


A very serious one that diminishes what little credibility you have.

> I'm hardly a geezer.


Don't sell yourself short.

> Everyone who knows me, says I'm heart healthy


With the exception of your cardiologist and other medical doctors,
"everyone" else is unqualified in assessing your heart health.

> and age healthy for my age.


With the exception of your medical doctors, "everyone" else is
unqualified in assessing your health.

> I do have osteoporosis, but so does my meat eating older
> brother, and my dairy eating son has signs of osteopina. It's genetic.


And it's old news. Why do you keep telling me about your brittle bones?

>>> My hair may be gray,

>>
>> I don't give a shit if it's purple or green or if you have enough
>> piercings to set off a metal detector three miles away. I'm
>> complaining about your slovenly style of posting and your dissheveled
>> use of the English language, not about your damn hair or appearance.
>>
>>> And I don't feel a need to go to a group of people and be the
>>> nastiest person I've run into.

>>
>> Then don't. No one's asked you to do that.
>>
>>>>> How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>>
>>>> Vegans ARE prejudiced bigots.
>>>
>>> Some might be.

>>
>> They all are. It's part of the mindset that drives someone to assume
>> moral superiority by what does or doesn't get chewed and swallowed.
>>
>>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the sure more
>>>>> interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant. I pointed out that the inclusion of nuts makes shows
>>>> like this more interesting (see my first point in the last
>>>> paragraph, dumb ass). Vegans are kooks. They're extremists. They
>>>> don't mesh well with normal people. That's why they tend to make
>>>> shows like this interesting and amusing.
>>>
>>> No, they took very extreme cases to raise their ratings.

>>
>> That's why I suggested more shows with vegans, because veganism is an
>> extreme and its adherents are extremists.

>
> Perhaps they look at the world picture of hunger


Veganism isn't a solution for world hunger.

> and efficiency


Veganism isn't a solution for efficiency.

> and actually care about animals.


Veganism addresses the welfare of animals in rhetoric and theory ONLY,
not in practice.

> I know you have presented excellent
> articles on collateral damage, but it takes more grain to feed livestock
> than eat it directly.


If it bothers that livestock eat grain, consume wild game or fish.
Neither requires inputs from agriculture that cause other species to
die. You offer a one-size-fits-all solution that DOESN'T fit all. Hell,
it doesn't even address the "problem" you want solved in the first place.
  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
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usual suspect
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

C. James Strutz wrote:
> "rick" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
>>"Leif Erikson" > wrote in message
groups.com...
>>rick wrote:
>>
>>>"RobDar" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
>>>>educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me,
>>>>I am going to look into this!
>>>
>>>
>>>Here's a few sites to start your research..

>>
>>That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all of them?
>>==============================
>>Just from my various research on the subject. I did just go through the
>>list to verify links and found several links no longer work, so I will
>>have to rebuild it.
>>
>>The numbers are amazing given the fact that nobody is really researching
>>the total problem. many of these are just results of specific occurances,
>>and no industry-wide research seems to be done. But then, there really
>>has been no cry for that research. The farmers have no incentive to do it,
>>the petro-chemical industry has no incentive to do it, and the Gob has no
>>real incentive to do it. The only that should care, vegan/AR loons, and
>>demand these studies are strangly quite on the issue. Of course, it would
>>blow their house of cards down and destroy their simple rule for their
>>simple minds.

>
>
> Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one restricted to
> veg*ns.


Since people who eat meat fully accept the fact animals die, the
"problem" exists only for vegans who claim
1. "no animals die" in the course of producing their food;
2. "animals don't have to die" in food production; or
3. "fewer animals die" -- as though ethics is a counting game.

The onus isn't on those who eat meat to reduce animal suffering or
death. It's on those who oppose people consuming meat and who make
categorical statements of their own moral superiority. When faced with
the facts, they ultimately make the same argument you did and claim a
virtue relative to the actions of others. They're not more ethical
because others are ethically "worse" than they are (at least according
to their capricious standard); they fail their own ethics test when they
measure themselves by their own standard.
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
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C. James Strutz
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> C. James Strutz wrote:
>> "rick" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>>
>>>"Leif Erikson" > wrote in message
egroups.com...
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"RobDar" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
>>>>>educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe me,
>>>>>I am going to look into this!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Here's a few sites to start your research..
>>>
>>>That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all of them?
>>>==============================
>>>Just from my various research on the subject. I did just go through the
>>>list to verify links and found several links no longer work, so I will
>>>have to rebuild it.
>>>
>>>The numbers are amazing given the fact that nobody is really researching
>>>the total problem. many of these are just results of specific
>>>occurances, and no industry-wide research seems to be done. But then,
>>>there really has been no cry for that research. The farmers have no
>>>incentive to do it, the petro-chemical industry has no incentive to do
>>>it, and the Gob has no real incentive to do it. The only that should
>>>care, vegan/AR loons, and demand these studies are strangly quite on the
>>>issue. Of course, it would blow their house of cards down and destroy
>>>their simple rule for their simple minds.

>>
>>
>> Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one restricted to
>> veg*ns.

>
> Since people who eat meat fully accept the fact animals die, the "problem"
> exists only for vegans who claim
> 1. "no animals die" in the course of producing their food;


Agreed...

> 2. "animals don't have to die" in food production; or


This is practically unrealistic. Animals DO die in the course of food
production and for other aspects of our existence. The only way to be
responsible for ZERO animal deaths as a result of our existence would be to
end our existence, and some animal deaths would probably result from even
that!

> 3. "fewer animals die" -- as though ethics is a counting game.


Sorry, but I agree with the "counting game" argument. America dropped atomic
bombs on Japan at the end of WWII because many more soldiers would have died
had we not. We killed people to prevent, in all probability, many times more
deaths. How about the death penalty? Or what about euthanasia? Or stem cell
research? Or abortion? Moral ethics aren't absolute.

> The onus isn't on those who eat meat to reduce animal suffering or death.
> It's on those who oppose people consuming meat and who make categorical
> statements of their own moral superiority. When faced with the facts, they
> ultimately make the same argument you did and claim a virtue relative to
> the actions of others. They're not more ethical because others are
> ethically "worse" than they are (at least according to their capricious
> standard); they fail their own ethics test when they measure themselves by
> their own standard.


Is it ethical to wash one's hands of responsibility for the deaths of living
things just because one doesn't claim moral superiority? The onus to
minimize the suffering or death of any living thing should be on all of us
regardless of what claims we do or don't make. The disagreement that you and
others have with vegans is the attitude of morel superiority of SOME of them
and not their wish to minimize animal deaths. AFter all, what's wrong with
trying to minimize animal deaths? It's fair to accuse a vegan of ignorance
but it's an entirely different matter to accuse them of being unethical.




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dutch
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"C. James Strutz" > wrote

> Is it ethical to wash one's hands of responsibility for the deaths of
> living things just because one doesn't claim moral superiority?


We're not washing our hands of responsibility, we're accepting
responsibility.

> The onus to minimize the suffering or death of any living thing should be
> on all of us regardless of what claims we do or don't make.


I think that is a personal decision. Under the circumstances I think it
behooves us to be aware of and honest about the impact of our lifestyles.
Vegans notoriously fail at this.

>The disagreement that you and others have with vegans is the attitude of
>morel superiority of SOME of them and not their wish to minimize animal
>deaths. AFter all, what's wrong with trying to minimize animal deaths? It's
>fair to accuse a vegan of ignorance but it's an entirely different matter
>to accuse them of being unethical.


The issue isn't the idea of minimizing animal suffering, there's nothing
wrong with that. The issue is the inability of vegans to value any lifestyle
or act that accomplishes that goal unless it is achieved by following the
vegan golden rule (do not consume..), while at the same time *over*-valuing
the token act of abstaining from so-called "animal products". The
side-effects of cotton production as recently discussed should make this
very apparent.

The problem I have with veganism, if I can try to put it succinctly, is that
it creates an unfair and unrealistic moral dichotomy between consumers and
non-consumers of animal products. This moral deceit is inherent in veganism,
therefore veganism per se must be rejected. Those who place a high moral
value on minimizing animal suffering need to abandon the misleading notion
of abstaining from animal "products" and create new paradigm to express
their ideal.


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Pinnochio Mojo
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode


C. James Strutz wrote:

> Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one restricted to
> veg*ns. In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this country (USA)
> directly supports the cattle industry. Yeah, go ahead and remind me that the
> ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains that grain-fed
> currently dominates the beef market by a large percentage and that's not
> going to change any time soon. In the end, more animal lives can be saved,
> including collateral deaths, if people stopped eating meat. Period.


The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed, but routinely
broken out in true pc fashion by the small minds here on this
newsgroup. One of the more common examples cites the "collateral
deaths" of mice and other small field animals at the hands of giant
oversized farming equipment, in the harvest of soy beans unavoidable in
any event. In any event the numbers cited are rather exorbitant and
hard to believe, leading one to dismiss them out of hand. But the real
flaw in the "collateral death" argument is the fact that less than
1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide is meant for human
consumption, it is grown mostly for livestock.

  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

Dutch wrote:

> Vegans notoriously fail at this.


Vegans fail at what? Meeting your suspect and decidedly flawed
standards and inflexible moral yardsticks? Provide some real world
examples.

> The problem I have with veganism


Why should you have any problem with veganism at all to begin with? No
the answer is clear, you are here to create problems lon this
newsgroup, for reasons unknown.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
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rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"C. James Strutz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "rick" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Leif Erikson" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> rick wrote:
>>> "RobDar" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well
>>> >enough
>>> >educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe
>>> >me,
>>> >I am going to look into this!
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's a few sites to start your research..

>>
>> That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all
>> of them?
>> ==============================
>> Just from my various research on the subject. I did just go
>> through the list to verify links and found several links no
>> longer work, so I will have to rebuild it.
>>
>> The numbers are amazing given the fact that nobody is really
>> researching the total problem. many of these are just results
>> of specific occurances, and no industry-wide research seems to
>> be done. But then, there really has been no cry for that
>> research. The farmers have no incentive to do it, the
>> petro-chemical industry has no incentive to do it, and the Gob
>> has no real incentive to do it. The only that should care,
>> vegan/AR loons, and demand these studies are strangly quite on
>> the issue. Of course, it would blow their house of cards down
>> and destroy their simple rule for their simple minds.

>
> Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one
> restricted to veg*ns.

=======================
No, I haven't. The problem is that vegans *claim* to be the ones
to care. They prove that they really don't by focusing only on
what others eat, and ignoring their own bolldy footprints.


In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this country
(USA)
> directly supports the cattle industry.

==============================
Show me the requirment that that be so.

Yeah, go ahead and remind me that the
> ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains
> that grain-fed currently dominates the beef market by a large
> percentage and that's not going to change any time soon. In the
> end, more animal lives can be saved, including collateral
> deaths, if people stopped eating meat. Period.

=============================
The fact still reamins that vegans *could* do better, but they
don't even try. Period. GHrass-fed beef is an easy, acheivable
alternative that can, and does, blow your vegan diet ideas out of
the water, killer.



>
>



  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
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rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default wife swap vegan episode


"Pinnochio Mojo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> C. James Strutz wrote:
>
>> Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one
>> restricted to
>> veg*ns. In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this
>> country (USA)
>> directly supports the cattle industry. Yeah, go ahead and
>> remind me that the
>> ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains
>> that grain-fed
>> currently dominates the beef market by a large percentage and
>> that's not
>> going to change any time soon. In the end, more animal lives
>> can be saved,
>> including collateral deaths, if people stopped eating meat.
>> Period.

>
> The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed,

=========================
No twits, it is not. The only "flaw' is that vegans can't debunk
it, no matter how much hand-waving they do.

but routinely
> broken out in true pc fashion by the small minds here on this
> newsgroup. One of the more common examples cites the
> "collateral
> deaths" of mice and other small field animals at the hands of
> giant
> oversized farming equipment, in the harvest of soy beans
> unavoidable in
> any event. In any event the numbers cited are rather exorbitant
> and
> hard to believe, leading one to dismiss them out of hand. But
> the real
> flaw in the "collateral death" argument is the fact that less
> than
> 1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide is meant for human
> consumption, it is grown mostly for livestock.

=======================
I suggest you try again, fool. Soy waste is used as feed, after
edible oil products have been removed. A product that YOU
continue to consume, hypocrite.

>





  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
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rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"RobDar" > wrote in message
...
>A few sites??? LOL!


Well, after checking the validity of the links, there are a 'few'
less.


> "rick" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> "RobDar" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
>>>educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe
>>>me, I am going to look into this!

>>
>>
>> Here's a few sites to start your research..
>>
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
>> http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>> http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
>> http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
>> http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
>> http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
>> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
>> http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
>> http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>> http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
>> http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
>> http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
>> http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
>> http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
>> http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
>> http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
>> http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
>> http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
>>
>> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
>> http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
>> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
>> http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
>> http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
>> http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf
>>
>>
>> problems with cotton.
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm
>>
>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
>> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
>> there
>> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>> http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
>> /natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>>
>>
>> here's are a couple
>> dealing with power and communications.
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>>> news:g7Mef.520964$tl2.159457@pd7tw3no...
>>>>
>>>> "RobDar" > wrote
>>>>> issue of cd's? not sure I am following....
>>>>
>>>> cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals
>>>> by various processes, in the case of commercial agriculture,
>>>> the use of machines for ploughing, seeding, spraying and
>>>> harvesting of crops, and the use of organic and inorganic
>>>> chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds. The
>>>> animals harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and
>>>> rabbits, also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents
>>>> such as shrews, moles and voles. Then there are ground
>>>> birds, lizards, frogs, and in the case of poisoning, any
>>>> animal that predates on them. We may even consider bees,
>>>> ants, spiders, grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of
>>>> that genre, vegans certainly consider them in their frequent
>>>> semi-conscious moral calculations. The collateral death toll
>>>> to animals in food production arguably dwarfs the number of
>>>> direct deaths of livestock in food production. This all
>>>> means that the diet of the typical (sub)urban vegan or
>>>> vegetarian who shops in supermarkets could easily be related
>>>> to more animal death and suffering than a family who
>>>> subsists largely on hunting. These often ignored facts cast
>>>> doubt on the vegan thought process which concludes that
>>>> consuming even a small amount of animal "product" is a moral
>>>> stain on one's character.
>>>>
>>>> The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following
>>>> fallacy, called "Denying the Antecedent":
>>>> 1) Animal products cause animal suffering
>>>> 2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
>>>> 3) I don't cause animal suffering
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>>>>> news:fjgef.509881$tl2.224390@pd7tw3no...
>>>>>> "Beach Runner" > wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A typical US post, taking one example and making every
>>>>>>> VEG*N one behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the
>>>>>>> sure more interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and
>>>>>> eating mostly meat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts,
>>>>>> fruit, vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most
>>>>>> of their food from the local woods. The issue of cds never
>>>>>> came up, but I am quite sure that once the hidden
>>>>>> collateral cost in animal death and suffering was tallied
>>>>>> up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Pinnochio Mojo
 
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rick wrote:

> I suggest you try again, [ad hominem] Soy waste is used as feed, after
> edible oil products have been removed. A product that YOU
> continue to consume, [ad hominem]


If you have some hard "realworld" data to back up your insincere claims
and specious observations, then by all means share it with us.

  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dutch
 
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"Pinnochio Mojo" > wrote
>
> The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed,


Ipse dixit.. Derek.


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Dutch wrote:

> Nothing of importance.


You have clarified nothing. Please explain for me what it is you find
so inappropriate with veganism.

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
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"Pinnochio Mojo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
>> Nothing of importance.

>
> You have clarified nothing. Please explain for me what it is
> you find
> so inappropriate with veganism.

==========================
Their lack of comprehension for one, twits...


>



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