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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 09:32 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Dutch
 
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"C. James Strutz" wrote

Is it ethical to wash one's hands of responsibility for the deaths of
living things just because one doesn't claim moral superiority?


We're not washing our hands of responsibility, we're accepting
responsibility.

The onus to minimize the suffering or death of any living thing should be
on all of us regardless of what claims we do or don't make.


I think that is a personal decision. Under the circumstances I think it
behooves us to be aware of and honest about the impact of our lifestyles.
Vegans notoriously fail at this.

The disagreement that you and others have with vegans is the attitude of
morel superiority of SOME of them and not their wish to minimize animal
deaths. AFter all, what's wrong with trying to minimize animal deaths? It's
fair to accuse a vegan of ignorance but it's an entirely different matter
to accuse them of being unethical.


The issue isn't the idea of minimizing animal suffering, there's nothing
wrong with that. The issue is the inability of vegans to value any lifestyle
or act that accomplishes that goal unless it is achieved by following the
vegan golden rule (do not consume..), while at the same time *over*-valuing
the token act of abstaining from so-called "animal products". The
side-effects of cotton production as recently discussed should make this
very apparent.

The problem I have with veganism, if I can try to put it succinctly, is that
it creates an unfair and unrealistic moral dichotomy between consumers and
non-consumers of animal products. This moral deceit is inherent in veganism,
therefore veganism per se must be rejected. Those who place a high moral
value on minimizing animal suffering need to abandon the misleading notion
of abstaining from animal "products" and create new paradigm to express
their ideal.



  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 09:51 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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C. James Strutz wrote:

Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one restricted to
veg*ns. In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this country (USA)
directly supports the cattle industry. Yeah, go ahead and remind me that the
ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains that grain-fed
currently dominates the beef market by a large percentage and that's not
going to change any time soon. In the end, more animal lives can be saved,
including collateral deaths, if people stopped eating meat. Period.


The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed, but routinely
broken out in true pc fashion by the small minds here on this
newsgroup. One of the more common examples cites the "collateral
deaths" of mice and other small field animals at the hands of giant
oversized farming equipment, in the harvest of soy beans unavoidable in
any event. In any event the numbers cited are rather exorbitant and
hard to believe, leading one to dismiss them out of hand. But the real
flaw in the "collateral death" argument is the fact that less than
1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide is meant for human
consumption, it is grown mostly for livestock.

  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 09:56 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Dutch wrote:

Vegans notoriously fail at this.


Vegans fail at what? Meeting your suspect and decidedly flawed
standards and inflexible moral yardsticks? Provide some real world
examples.

The problem I have with veganism


Why should you have any problem with veganism at all to begin with? No
the answer is clear, you are here to create problems lon this
newsgroup, for reasons unknown.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:04 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"C. James Strutz" wrote in message
...

"rick" wrote in message
k.net...

"Leif Erikson" wrote in message
oups.com...
rick wrote:
"RobDar" wrote in message
...
a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well
enough
educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe
me,
I am going to look into this!


Here's a few sites to start your research..


That's a pretty impressive list! How did you come up with all
of them?
==============================
Just from my various research on the subject. I did just go
through the list to verify links and found several links no
longer work, so I will have to rebuild it.

The numbers are amazing given the fact that nobody is really
researching the total problem. many of these are just results
of specific occurances, and no industry-wide research seems to
be done. But then, there really has been no cry for that
research. The farmers have no incentive to do it, the
petro-chemical industry has no incentive to do it, and the Gob
has no real incentive to do it. The only that should care,
vegan/AR loons, and demand these studies are strangly quite on
the issue. Of course, it would blow their house of cards down
and destroy their simple rule for their simple minds.


Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one
restricted to veg*ns.

=======================
No, I haven't. The problem is that vegans *claim* to be the ones
to care. They prove that they really don't by focusing only on
what others eat, and ignoring their own bolldy footprints.


In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this country
(USA)
directly supports the cattle industry.

==============================
Show me the requirment that that be so.

Yeah, go ahead and remind me that the
ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains
that grain-fed currently dominates the beef market by a large
percentage and that's not going to change any time soon. In the
end, more animal lives can be saved, including collateral
deaths, if people stopped eating meat. Period.

=============================
The fact still reamins that vegans *could* do better, but they
don't even try. Period. GHrass-fed beef is an easy, acheivable
alternative that can, and does, blow your vegan diet ideas out of
the water, killer.







  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:08 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote in message
oups.com...

C. James Strutz wrote:

Your simple mind has forgotten that the problem is not one
restricted to
veg*ns. In fact, most of the grain and soy produced in this
country (USA)
directly supports the cattle industry. Yeah, go ahead and
remind me that the
ultimate solution is to eat grass-fed beef. The fact remains
that grain-fed
currently dominates the beef market by a large percentage and
that's not
going to change any time soon. In the end, more animal lives
can be saved,
including collateral deaths, if people stopped eating meat.
Period.


The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed,

=========================
No twits, it is not. The only "flaw' is that vegans can't debunk
it, no matter how much hand-waving they do.

but routinely
broken out in true pc fashion by the small minds here on this
newsgroup. One of the more common examples cites the
"collateral
deaths" of mice and other small field animals at the hands of
giant
oversized farming equipment, in the harvest of soy beans
unavoidable in
any event. In any event the numbers cited are rather exorbitant
and
hard to believe, leading one to dismiss them out of hand. But
the real
flaw in the "collateral death" argument is the fact that less
than
1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide is meant for human
consumption, it is grown mostly for livestock.

=======================
I suggest you try again, fool. Soy waste is used as feed, after
edible oil products have been removed. A product that YOU
continue to consume, hypocrite.






  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:09 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"RobDar" wrote in message
...
A few sites??? LOL!


Well, after checking the validity of the links, there are a 'few'
less.


"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"RobDar" wrote in message
...
a very interesting stance...I cannot say that I am well enough
educated on the topic to comment intelligently...but believe
me, I am going to look into this!



Here's a few sites to start your research..


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf


problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html








"Dutch" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"RobDar" wrote
issue of cd's? not sure I am following....

cds = The collateral death and suffering caused to animals
by various processes, in the case of commercial agriculture,
the use of machines for ploughing, seeding, spraying and
harvesting of crops, and the use of organic and inorganic
chemicals for the elimination of pests and weeds. The
animals harmed can be larger mammals like deer, gophers, and
rabbits, also smaller mammals such as mice and other rodents
such as shrews, moles and voles. Then there are ground
birds, lizards, frogs, and in the case of poisoning, any
animal that predates on them. We may even consider bees,
ants, spiders, grasshoppers, worms, and other animals of
that genre, vegans certainly consider them in their frequent
semi-conscious moral calculations. The collateral death toll
to animals in food production arguably dwarfs the number of
direct deaths of livestock in food production. This all
means that the diet of the typical (sub)urban vegan or
vegetarian who shops in supermarkets could easily be related
to more animal death and suffering than a family who
subsists largely on hunting. These often ignored facts cast
doubt on the vegan thought process which concludes that
consuming even a small amount of animal "product" is a moral
stain on one's character.

The vegan moral calculation is embodied in the following
fallacy, called "Denying the Antecedent":
1) Animal products cause animal suffering
2) I abstain from animal products, therefore
3) I don't cause animal suffering




"Dutch" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
"Beach Runner" wrote

A typical US post, taking one example and making every
VEG*N one behavior. How prejudicial and bigoted.

The family had to be typical of raw-food vegan/ ARAs.

Obviously the producers sought extremists to make the
sure more interesting.

The other family were extreme also, hunting every day and
eating mostly meat.

The vegan family shopped at a local market, imported nuts,
fruit, vegetables, seeds, etc.. while the hunters got most
of their food from the local woods. The issue of cds never
came up, but I am quite sure that once the hidden
collateral cost in animal death and suffering was tallied
up, the hunter family would fare quite well by comparison.














  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:28 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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rick wrote:

I suggest you try again, [ad hominem] Soy waste is used as feed, after
edible oil products have been removed. A product that YOU
continue to consume, [ad hominem]


If you have some hard "realworld" data to back up your insincere claims
and specious observations, then by all means share it with us.

  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:28 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Dutch
 
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"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote

The "collateral death" argument is severely flawed,


Ipse dixit.. Derek.


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:31 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Dutch wrote:

Nothing of importance.


You have clarified nothing. Please explain for me what it is you find
so inappropriate with veganism.

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:40 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dutch wrote:

Nothing of importance.


You have clarified nothing. Please explain for me what it is
you find
so inappropriate with veganism.

==========================
Their lack of comprehension for one, twits...







  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:41 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote in message
ups.com...
rick wrote:

I suggest you try again, [ad hominem] Soy waste is used as
feed, after
edible oil products have been removed. A product that YOU
continue to consume, [ad hominem]


If you have some hard "realworld" data to back up your
insincere claims
and specious observations, then by all means share it with us.
================================

You made the origina; claim fool, why can't you back it up?
Typical loon aren't you, eh twits?



  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 10:50 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode

rick wrote:
You made the original claim [ad hominem], why can't you back it up?
Typical [ad homeinem] aren't you, eh [ad homeinem]?


Precisely. And you have failed to refute it, so therefore it appears
that you are only spouting meaningless and inconsequential absurdities,
with no actual relevance to the "collateral death" argument at hand.

  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 11:03 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Pinnochio Mojo
 
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Here is one page that provides some evidence of the animal feed/human
consumption imbalance that exists.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...stock.hrs.html

  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 11:30 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote in message
oups.com...
rick wrote:
You made the original claim [ad hominem], why can't you back
it up?
Typical [ad homeinem] aren't you, eh [ad homeinem]?


Precisely. And you have failed to refute it,

======================================
LOL YOU have failed to back it up, fool.


so therefore it appears
that you are only spouting meaningless and inconsequential
absurdities,
with no actual relevance to the "collateral death" argument at
hand.
======================

http://www.asasoya.org/Uses/LifeOfSoybean.htm
http://www.soystats.com/2005/edibleuses.htm
http://www.asasoya.org/Uses/meal.htm


Now, where's the proof of your claims, fool:
"...fact that less than 1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide
is meant for human
consumption..."
What a brainwashed, willfully ignorant dolt you are twits...


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-11-2005, 11:33 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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Default wife swap vegan episode


"Pinnochio Mojo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here is one page that provides some evidence of the animal
feed/human
consumption imbalance that exists.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...stock.hrs.html
==================

no proof of your claim there, fool...
"...fact that less than 1/100 of 1% of all soy produced worldwide
is meant for human
consumption..."




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