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  #151 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 25-11-2005, 08:05 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Dutch
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote
usual suspect wrote:


Mainstream ethics does not support seriously inhumane treatment
of animals *even* when it is to the benefit of humans.


Neither do I.


You do if you support factory farming, which is always inhumane.


What is your definition of factory farming? Size? A farm could house a lot
of animals and still be designed to minimize suffering. A farm could be
small and be humane or not, depending on the operator.



  #152 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 25-11-2005, 10:04 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...


snippage...


....animals
are sacrificed for the producer's profit or convenience.

=========================
What a coincidence, that's what YOU support for the production of
your veggies, killer. Mono-culture crop production is far more
'factory' than many meat operations, hypocrite. Why the total
lack of concern on your part about the animals that die for your
convenience and entertainment?



snippage...



  #153 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 04:55 AM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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rick wrote:
"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...


snippage...


...animals


are sacrificed for the producer's profit or convenience.


=========================
What a coincidence, that's what YOU support for the production of
your veggies, killer. Mono-culture crop production is far more
'factory' than many meat operations, hypocrite. Why the total
lack of concern on your part about the animals that die for your
convenience and entertainment?


You have a serious problem with this obsession, Rick. Perhaps
you should seek counseling for this monomania of yours so
that you can respond to the topic when posting.
  #154 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 05:07 AM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...
rick wrote:
"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...


snippage...


...animals


are sacrificed for the producer's profit or convenience.


=========================
What a coincidence, that's what YOU support for the production
of your veggies, killer. Mono-culture crop production is far
more 'factory' than many meat operations, hypocrite. Why the
total lack of concern on your part about the animals that die
for your convenience and entertainment?


You have a serious problem with this obsession, Rick. Perhaps
you should seek counseling for this monomania of yours so
that you can respond to the topic when posting.

=======================
LOL The constant bit of lys and ignorance comes from you, fool.
The food you eat causes massive amounts of animal death and
suffering. Too bad you're too hypocritical to actually DO
anything to lessen your bloody footprints, killer.


  #155 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 05:27 AM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Dutch
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote
Dutch wrote:
"Glorfindel" wrote


usual suspect wrote:


Mainstream ethics does not support seriously inhumane treatment
of animals *even* when it is to the benefit of humans.


Neither do I.


You do if you support factory farming, which is always inhumane.


What is your definition of factory farming?


Mainly, an operation in which the basic biological needs,
including psychological or emotional needs, of animals
are sacrificed for the producer's profit or convenience.


You have defined factory farming as inhumane, no wonder you think it is. I
would have thought that an objective definition would be by number of
animals.

For example, a bare floor may be easier to clean, but
turkeys don't naturally live on bare concrete. They
don't naturally live in enclosed buildings full of thousands
of other turkeys. They need bedding and places to roost,
and the ability to escape if threatened by other turkeys.
Producers, besides not breeding birds who can't even
reproduce by themselves, need to observe wild turkeys in
the wild, and give domestic turkeys the kind of living
conditions turkeys choose for themselves.

Size? A farm could house a lot of animals and still be designed to
minimize suffering.


Yes, it could, *if* there were enough space and other
provisions, and enough people, to provide what the animal,
as a member of his/her species, needs to be comfortable
and healthy. That includes things like fresh air, grazing,
opportunities to dustbathe and scratch for chickens, small
enough groups within the whole for the animals to form
natural social groupings and avoid over-stress, enough
human supervision to notice when an individual is starting
to get sick, or is being kept away from the food or water by
stronger animals, a chance for young animals to spend
some time with the parent(s), and so on. Factory farms
involve things like battery cages or masses of animals
in enclosed buildings, gestation crates for sows, and so on.

A farm could be small and be humane or not, depending on the operator.


Yes, of course.


So we should talk about "inhumane" farms and "humane" farms, that's really
the important criterion. "Factory farms" just sounds like BS rhetoric.






  #156 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 04:03 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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Dutch wrote:

What is your definition of factory farming?


Mainly, an operation in which the basic biological needs,
including psychological or emotional needs, of animals
are sacrificed for the producer's profit or convenience.


You have defined factory farming as inhumane, no wonder you think it is. I
would have thought that an objective definition would be by number of
animals.


Not so much number of animals _per se_ as the technological
methods (like those of a factory) used to care for them.
Numbers will have an effect. When you start getting thousands
of chickens in one building, it's pretty much impossible to
provide humane living conditions for them. But a small
backyard flock can also be badly treated as a lower level
of technology. The term "factory farming" is more specific:
it refers to large-scale commercial production which is
also inhumane in its methods.



A farm could be small and be humane or not, depending on the operator.


Yes, of course.


So we should talk about "inhumane" farms and "humane" farms, that's really
the important criterion. "Factory farms" just sounds like BS rhetoric.

  #157 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 05:22 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...



snippage...



....The term "factory farming" is more specific:
it refers to large-scale commercial production which is
also inhumane in its methods.

===========================
Again, thanks for perfectly describing the vast majority of the
foods you eat, hypocrite.

That you continue to focus only on foods that YOU do not eat,
your impact in that area means nothing! What it does mean is
that you ignore the areas you do have a massive impact just so
you can continue to spew your hate and delusions.




snip.


  #158 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 07:04 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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Dutch and I are discussing the definition of "factory farming"
as it applies to animals, Rick. The term I would use for
the equivalent in vegetable production is "Agribusiness".


  #159 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 08:04 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...

Dutch and I are discussing the definition of "factory farming"
as it applies to animals, Rick.

==========================
That's the point hypocrite, it does apply to animals that die
very brutally, and far more inhumanely to produce your veggies.


The term I would use for
the equivalent in vegetable production is "Agribusiness".

=======================
Sounds sooo much nicer, eh killer? The fact remains that crop
production is a far more factory farming than many animal
operations. Too bad you dogma and delusions don't let you see
that, eh?






  #160 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 08:19 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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rick wrote:
"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...


Dutch and I are discussing the definition of "factory farming"
as it applies to animals, Rick.


==========================
That's the point hypocrite, it does apply to animals that die
very brutally, and far more inhumanely to produce your veggies.


That you don't know. It's an assumption on your part.

The term I would use for


the equivalent in vegetable production is "Agribusiness".


=======================
Sounds sooo much nicer, eh killer?


No, not particularly. It simply allows for more precise discussion
when terms are specific and defined.




  #161 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 08:38 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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I think I should explain something to you, Dutch, because
I don't think you understand exactly where I am coming
from. If I were to begin eating meat again -- highly
unlikely -- I would buy factory-farmed meat because it
is cheaper and more convenient. I don't eat meat or buy
animal products partly because I find the methods of production
for most such products today nauseating. But, more important,
I don't buy animal parts if I can avoid them because I believe
it is unethical to use animals as products, as commodities,
as things to be bought and sold like plants or inanimate objects.
It's the same reason I wouldn't buy an animal from a pet
store. Animals are individuals who own their own lives and
it is immoral, I believe, to buy and sell them or their parts.
That is why the CD argument is only a very secondary one for me.
It doesn't address my basic reason for being a vegan.


  #162 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 10:23 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...

I think I should explain something to you, Dutch, because
I don't think you understand exactly where I am coming
from. If I were to begin eating meat again -- highly
unlikely -- I would buy factory-farmed meat because it
is cheaper and more convenient. I don't eat meat or buy
animal products partly because I find the methods of production
for most such products today nauseating. But, more important,
I don't buy animal parts if I can avoid them because I believe
it is unethical to use animals as products, as commodities,
as things to be bought and sold like plants or inanimate
objects.
It's the same reason I wouldn't buy an animal from a pet
store. Animals are individuals who own their own lives and
it is immoral, I believe, to buy and sell them or their parts.
That is why the CD argument is only a very secondary one for
me.

======================
LOL Of course it is. Makes it very convenient for you to ignore
the millions upon millions of animals that die for crop
production, right hypocrite? Claiming an animal has a 'right' to
be free of human use, and then killing them willy-nilly for
nothing more that YOUR conveninece and entertainment is the
definition of hypocritical, killer.


It doesn't address my basic reason for being a vegan.

==========================
You have no real reason, just a simple rule for your simple mind,
'eat no meat.'






  #163 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 10:57 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Glorfindel
 
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I really wonder what your emotional problem is, Rick.

You clearly are not rational on this subject.

killfiled

  #164 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 11:24 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
Dutch
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote

I think I should explain something to you, Dutch, because
I don't think you understand exactly where I am coming
from. If I were to begin eating meat again -- highly
unlikely -- I would buy factory-farmed meat because it
is cheaper and more convenient.


Do you mean you *would NOT*?

I don't eat meat or buy
animal products partly because I find the methods of production
for most such products today nauseating. But, more important,
I don't buy animal parts if I can avoid them because I believe
it is unethical to use animals as products, as commodities,
as things to be bought and sold like plants or inanimate objects.
It's the same reason I wouldn't buy an animal from a pet
store. Animals are individuals who own their own lives and
it is immoral, I believe, to buy and sell them or their parts.
That is why the CD argument is only a very secondary one for me.
It doesn't address my basic reason for being a vegan.


I understand that. Please understand that I do not believe that applying
such a political consideration to animals makes any sense. What makes sense
to me is considering how we cause animal suffering. From that standpoint,
cds is every bit as important as causing them to suffer in the process of
"using them".


  #165 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-11-2005, 11:37 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
rick
 
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"Glorfindel" wrote in message
...

I really wonder what your emotional problem is, Rick.

You clearly are not rational on this subject.
========================

LOL I'm completly rational, fool. You, om the other hand are
more than willing to remain ignorant and irrational when it comes
to the impact YOU cause just so that you can focus your hate at
others...



killfiled

====
Of course, when you can't refute reality with your typical lys
and delusions, run away. Thanks for proving once again that
vegans have nothing but fear, hate and willful ignorance, killer.




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