Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

true believer Phil Odox wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> It's a basic fact
>>> that vegetation can be produced without killing animals.

>>
>> It's *not* a fact, it's a dream.

>
> Are you still trying


I'm explaining that you're being dishonest by prating about your fantasy
about no-harm farming rather than blood-and-guts real-world farming and
the dead animals accepted as a normal consequence of agriculture.

What goes unaccounted for in Regan's vegan conclusion, according
to Davis, is the number of animals who are inadvertently killed
during crop production and harvest.

"Vegan diets are not bloodless diets," Davis said. "Millions of
animals die every year to provide products used in vegan diets."

"Over the years that I have been studying animal rights
theories, I have never found anyone who has considered the
deaths of - or, the 'harm' to - animals of the field," Davis
said. "This, it seems to me, is a serious omission."

Consequently, Davis asks what is the morally relevant difference
between the field mouse and the cow that makes it okay to kill
one but not the other so that humans may eat.

Few studies document the losses of rabbits, mice, pheasants,
snakes and other field animals in planting and harvesting crops.
Said one researcher: "Because most of these animals have been
seen as expendable, or not seen at all, few scientific studies
have been done measuring agriculture's effects on their
populations."

Davis has found evidence that suggests that the unseen losses of
field animals are very high. One study documented that a single
operation, mowing alfalfa, caused a 50 percent reduction in the
gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every
pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of
herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of
the field....

Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production,
which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with
beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a
model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals
annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a
total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is
mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and
forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain,
beans, and corn.

Applying the Least Harm Principle, Davis argues that people may
be morally obliged to consume a diet based on plants and grazing
ruminants in order to cause the least harm to animals.
http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../20024572.html

You also need to respond to what I wrote:
The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater the
number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your diet.
That pile of dead and wounded animals, if you had the guts to
even start to count through it, is the evidence that a
vegetarian diet is a meaningless gesture if the criterion for
not harming animals actually means NOT HARMING ANIMALS.

If you consider harm to animals to be a moral issue, your virtue
isn't based on your pipedreams about mythical production that
doesn't harm animals, but on your actual consumption and how
that consumption affects animals. You get some reprieve to the
extent that you grow some of your own food. But since you likely
consume foods that are grown on a commercial scale (e.g., grains
and legumes) and stored (where health codes REQUIRE proactive
pest control), you DO kill animals through your consumption.
That makes you no better than someone who eats meat by your own
criterion.

You're a poseur. Don't be offended or feel alone. You're neither the
first nor the last. The question is whether you'll be honest enough to
actually do something about it or if you'll just continue spouting off
your delusional, meaningless platitudes.
  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

true believer and wide-eyed dreamer Phil Odox wrote:
>> BTW...
>>
>> Why did you ignore this?
>>
>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater the
>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your diet.

>
> No


Yes. The more you eat, the more animals die. That's reality.
  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> BTW...
>>
>> Why did you ignore this?
>>
>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater
>> the
>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your
>> diet.

>
> No, that's nonsense. It could be that the more vegetables one
> eats
> the fewer the deaths caused because food producers have more
> money
> to spend on better farming equipment and training.

==============================
You really are this delusional and stupid, aren't you? No, fool,
the more demand the more 'factory' the farming becomes, killer.
The 'training' means how to grow more with the same land, at
lower cost, and the 'equipment' means larger and more capable of
mass production on a larger scale. Your denial of reality is
really amusing, hypocrite...


Higher consumption
> levels doesn't automatically mean more animal deaths in
> vegetable
> production, and if it did, they don't have to die.

=================================
yes, it does, and yes they do...



http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




> <cut>



  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>No, it's patently false.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I've grown plenty of vegetables
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>How about "Breadcrumbs *wheat* and *rye*," you
>>>>>>>>>>imbecile?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>How about potatoes, swedes and fruit grown on trees,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>One more time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How about potatoes, swedes and fruit grown on trees
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stop trying to change the subject.
>>>>>
>>>>>The subject is vegetable production
>>>>
>>>>======================
>>>>No, that wasn't the original post, fool..
>>>>
>>>
>>>It is now, and I see that none of you have the courage to
>>>say aloud that animals don't have to die in order to
>>>produce vegetables for vegans.

>>
>> ============================
>> For you to live, yes it does.

>
> No, it doesn't. Where are you going to find the courage to
> admit
> the fact that vegetables and fruits can be grown without
> causing
> animal deaths?

=========================
LOL It's your denial of facts that are on display, killer.


>
> that you can handgrow a few meals
>> means nothing, fool.
>>

> It means that a vegetarian can eat without killing animals.
> That's saying a lot more than nothing, fool.
> ============================

No, it doesn't fool. It means only a few meals, not life.


>>
>> It is because you can't say
>>
>>>the same about your food? Is the shame which surrounds your
>>>diet on meat stopping you from being honest about vegetarian
>>>food?

>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html

> <cut>
>
> You haven't answered the question, Rick. Is the shame which
> surrounds your diet on meat stopping you from being honest
> about vegetarian food? Supplying a list of pesticides doesn't
> answer that question.

===========================
It proves your delusions are lys....
Animals die by the miillions for you diet AND lifestyle. Your
fake concern for animals is displayed with each inane post you
make to usenet, killer.




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> Animals don't have to die in vegetable production.

>>
>>
>> But they *do*.

>
> Occasionally, yes, but they certainly don't have to.
>
> That makes vegetarians who claim some form of virtue
>> arising from a meatless diet to be hypocrites.
>>

> How so? They choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals
> *have*
> to die for their food, and that's what ethical vegetarianism is
> all about.

====================
but they do, and not occasionally, fool. Riutinelt,
systematically and deliberately..



http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, it's patently false.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've grown plenty of vegetables
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How about "Breadcrumbs *wheat* and *rye*," you imbecile?
>>>
>>>How about potatoes, swedes and fruit grown on trees, you
>>>crank?
>>>Many vegetables can be grown to live on without killing
>>>animals.
>>>Nothing *has* to die.

>>
>>
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm

> <cut rest of list>
>
> Explain how a list of pesticides means animals have to die in
> order
> to produce vegetables when said pesticides needn't even be used
> to
> produce them.

==============================
Yes, they do for you to live, hypocrite. You have no NEED to
post to usenet either, yet here you are causing unnecessary death
and suffering to animals.






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html


  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>> Animals by the millions die in the production of your
>>>> veggies
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe that the numbers are that high,

>>
>>
>> They are.
>>
>>> and even if they
>>> were, they didn't have to die. Vegetables and fruit can be
>>> grown
>>> without killing animals,

>>
>>
>> Yet they are.
>>

> I don't believe you, and until you produce some evidence
> supporting
> your claim I have every reason to continue disbelieving you.
>
>>> so if one has a moral conscience and
>>> can't bring themselves to intentionally kill them,

>>
>>
>> Causing collateral death or injury through personal
>> consumption doesn't
>> exculpate a vegetarian consumer from any moral guilt for them.
>>

> What guilt? I have no moral guilt over them. They don't have to
> die.

===========================
Yet they do, at your behest, hypocrite...


>
>>> the best and
>>> only option is to eat vegetables instead.

>>
>>
>> Bullshit.

>
> Not at all. Why would a vegan choose a diet that kills animals
> when
> a vegetarian diet means that animals don't have to die for
> one's food?
> Would you buy and eat the flesh of humans, or would you choose
> a diet
> that didn't have to kill any humans at all?
> =====================================

Because no vegan here has made that choice, killer. Especially
you, hypocrite.



>>
>> http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../20024572.html
>>
>>> Do you have the courage

>>
>>
>> Do YOU have the courage

>
> You haven't answered my question, and there's no going any
> further
> until you do. Do you have the courage to admit that vegetables
> can
> be grown without killing animals?

======================
Not in the quantity you eat fool. Besides, you've proven already
that killing animals is not a problem for you, hypocrite.






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html



  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>><cut>
>>>
>>>>Animals by the millions die in the production of your veggies
>>>
>>>I don't believe that the numbers are that high,

>>
>> ============================
>> Willful ignorance.

>
> Then provide evidence pertaining to these numbers and enlighten
> me.

========================
ROTFLMAO Why fool? You've been snipping them out all night,
killer....


>
>
> The trademark of veg*ns everywhere...
>>
>>
>> and even if they
>>
>>>were, they didn't have to die.

>>
>> ===============================
>> Yes, they did.

>
> No, they didn't. Animals don't have to die to produce a
> vegetable
> or vegetables.

==========================
For you to live they do. Why the continued delusions and denial,
hypocrite?




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Guess again, you prancing poof. Plenty of animals DO
>>>>>>>>>>>die as a result of the farming, transportation, and
>>>>>>>>>>>storage practices associated with grains. Many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>deaths are intentional (i.e., pesticides). Others
>>>>>>>>>>>aren't intentional (e.g., flooding during irrigation,
>>>>>>>>>>>burning fields, predation when croplands are
>>>>>>>>>>>harvested, slicing and dicing during planting and
>>>>>>>>>>>harvest, etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That maybe so, but the it doesn't take anything away
>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>nemo's correct statement; nothing *has* to die to
>>>>>>>>>>provide
>>>>>>>>>>vegetarians with food.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>well, you mean nothing with a face has to die.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Has to die" is meaningless sophistry when you know damn
>>>>>>>>well that animals DO die in the normal course of
>>>>>>>>commercial-scale agriculture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They might,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They do die in the NORMAL course of commercial-scale
>>>>>>agriculture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That may be so,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It is so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>occasionally,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Wrong. NORMALLY. ROUTINELY.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No, only occasionally, and even then we still have the fact
>>>that they didn't have to.

>>
>> ====================================
>> No

>
> Yes, we still have that fact that you're ashamed to admit.
> Denying
> it won't make it any less a fact.

=======================
Ah, finally resorting to dishonest snipping now, eh killer. One
more nail in the coffon of your delusions....

here, restore...

====================================
No fool, routinely and, in many cases, deliberately.




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>nemo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>=======================
>>>>>>>>No, it is not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's a perfectly true statement; nothing *has* to die
>>>>>>>to provide vegetarians with food.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=========================
>>>>>>No, it is not, and you have failed to prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've proved it many times over the years by growing quite a
>>>>>fair bit of veg, and no animals died during it's production.
>>>>>Animals don't have to die in order for vegetarians to eat.
>>>>
>>>>========================
>>>>Not if you want to live.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, even that. When times were hard I ate only what I could
>>>grow,
>>>and not a single animal died during that time, which goes to
>>>prove
>>>that a vegetarian can eat without killing them, unlike meat
>>>eaters.
>>>========================

>>
>> You can ly to yourself all you want, but we don't believe your
>> fantacy, killer.
>>

> Then explain how growing a piece of fruit or a vegetable *must*
> include the death of an animal.
> <cut>===================

In the amount needed to keep you alive, yes, it does your fantasy
and delusion aside, hypocrite...

But then, you continue to prove your real lack of caring about
animals and the blood all over your hands, killer.




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> true believer Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>> <...>
>>>>
>>>>> It's a basic fact
>>>>> that vegetation can be produced without killing animals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's *not* a fact, it's a dream.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you still trying

>>

> <restore>
>
> Are you still trying to tell me that a piece of fruit or a
> potato cannot possibly grow without the involvement of
> animal deaths? Is your shame so profound that it stops you
> from admitting the simple fact that vegetables *can* be grown
> in this way?

==========================
Is your brainwashing so complete as to think your fantasy foods
can feed you, much less the world? You truly are this
delusional, aren't you?


>>
>> I'm explaining that you're being dishonest

>
> It's not dishonest to say that a piece of fruit or a vegetable
> can be grown without killing animals. The dishonesty and lack
> of courage to admit this simple fact is all yours.
> <cut>===============

LOL The dishonesty is from you in continuing to spew a fantasy
about caring for animals, when you continue to prove they mean
nothing to you, killer?



http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> true believer and wide-eyed dreamer Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>> BTW...
>>>>
>>>> Why did you ignore this?
>>>>
>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the
>>>> greater the
>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your
>>>> diet.
>>>
>>>
>>> No

>>
>>
>> Yes. The more you eat, the more animals die. That's reality.

>
> No, it's a fallacy.
> <restore>
> No, that's nonsense. It could be that the more vegetables one
> eats
> the fewer the deaths caused because food producers have more
> money
> to spend on better farming equipment and training. Higher
> consumption
> levels doesn't automatically mean more animal deaths in
> vegetable
> production, and if it did, they don't have to die.

===========================
Still delusional, eh killer?



http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>BTW...
>>>>
>>>>Why did you ignore this?
>>>>
>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater
>>>> the
>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your
>>>> diet.
>>>
>>>No, that's nonsense. It could be that the more vegetables one
>>>eats
>>>the fewer the deaths caused because food producers have more
>>>money
>>>to spend on better farming equipment and training.

>>
>> ==============================
>> You really are this delusional and stupid, aren't you?

>
> You need to grow up and stop calling people names. If you can't
> deal with the facts and acknowledge the truth in them, say so
> and run along.
> <cut>==============================

LOL You're the one that needs to grow up, fool. Pretending in
fantasy is childs play, killer...



>
>>>Higher consumption levels doesn't automatically mean more
>>>animal deaths in vegetable
>>>production, and if it did, they don't have to die.

>>
>> =================================
>> yes, it does

>
> No, it doesn't, for the reason I've given.

========================
Yes, it does, and why the dishonest snipping, coward?

I might buy more
> produce and thereby reduce the numbers of fatalities by
> encouraging food producers to use better methods. If I buy
> less produce from them, then fatalities might rise because
> food producers might then be encouraged to cut corners.
> <cut>==================

You failed econ, right, hypocrite?






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>No, it's patently false.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've grown plenty of vegetables
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>How about "Breadcrumbs *wheat* and *rye*," you
>>>>>>>>>>>>imbecile?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>How about potatoes, swedes and fruit grown on trees,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>One more time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>How about potatoes, swedes and fruit grown on trees
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stop trying to change the subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The subject is vegetable production
>>>>>>
>>>>>>======================
>>>>>>No, that wasn't the original post, fool..
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is now, and I see that none of you have the courage to
>>>>>say aloud that animals don't have to die in order to
>>>>>produce vegetables for vegans.
>>>>
>>>>============================
>>>>For you to live, yes it does.
>>>
>>>No, it doesn't. Where are you going to find the courage to
>>>admit
>>>the fact that vegetables and fruits can be grown without
>>>causing
>>>animal deaths?

>>
>> =========================
>> LOL It's your denial of facts that are on display, killer.
>>

> I haven't denied that animals occasionally die during the
> production process of vegetables.

===========================
ROTFLMAO There's your denial right there, killer. "ocassional"
What a hoot!!!
You continue to snip and ignore facts, hypocrite. It's a
hallmark veg*n loons here on usenet.


The denial is all yours
> while denying the fact that vegetables can be grown without
> killing animals, and that denial is all to do with the shame
> you feel while in the company of those who make ethical
> choices.

===========================
In the amounts that you live on, yes, I disagree, killer. You're
continued fantasy and delsuion is amusing, but pathetic...


>
>>
>>
>>>that you can handgrow a few meals
>>>
>>>>means nothing, fool.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It means that a vegetarian can eat without killing animals.
>>>That's saying a lot more than nothing, fool.
>>>============================

>>
>> No, it doesn't fool.

>
> Try typing a single sentence without using the word "fool."

=======================
Hey, when it applies, it applies, fool. Quit being an ignorent
fool and it will change, killer.

>
>
>
> It means only a few meals, not life.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> It is because you can't say
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the same about your food? Is the shame which surrounds your
>>>>>diet on meat stopping you from being honest about vegetarian
>>>>>food?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>>>>http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>>>
>>><cut>
>>>
>>>You haven't answered the question, Rick. Is the shame which
>>>surrounds your diet on meat stopping you from being honest
>>>about vegetarian food? Supplying a list of pesticides doesn't
>>>answer that question.

>>
>> ===========================
>> It proves your delusions are lys....

>
> "Lies" is spelled with an "i" and an "e", and no,it doesn't, so
> answer the question if you have the courage.

=============================
LOL It's a tribute to a fellow loon here on usenet, killer. She
is as willfully ignorant and delusional as you. At one time she
used the name "Lys" here. Very appropriate in her case, and in
yours... And again, thanks for proving your dishonesty,
hypocrite...



We can't go any
> further until you admit this small but important fact.

===========================
LOL admit you lys, hypocrite... see below...


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>><...>
>>>>
>>>>>Animals don't have to die in vegetable production.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But they *do*.
>>>
>>>Occasionally, yes, but they certainly don't have to.
>>>
>>>That makes vegetarians who claim some form of virtue
>>>
>>>>arising from a meatless diet to be hypocrites.
>>>>
>>>
>>>How so? They choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals
>>>*have*
>>>to die for their food, and that's what ethical vegetarianism
>>>is
>>>all about.

>>
>> ====================
>> but they do,

>
> No,they don't.

=====================
Ah, more dishonest snipping...
Yes, they do, routinrly, systematically and deliberately. Too
bad you have to keep snipping the facts and pretending they
aren't there, hypocrite.



http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> Your shame has made you incapable of being honest
>>> concerning vegetarian diets,

>>
>>
>> You're the one who's being dishonest

>
> There's nothing dishonest about stating the fact that no
> animals *must* die in order to produce a vegetable or
> vegetables.

=============================
The dishonesty is yours in pretending that this fantasy feeds
you, or anyone else, hypocrite...

The dishonesty and shame is all yours while
> you persistently fail to acknowledge that said fact. We
> can't go any further until you admit it, so you'll have
> to find that courage from somewhere.
> <cut without reading>

========================
Of course, truth and facts mean nothing to the brainwashed, eh
killer?




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><cut>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>>And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Guess again, you prancing poof. Plenty of animals DO
>>>>>>>>>>>die as a result of the farming, transportation, and
>>>>>>>>>>>storage practices associated with grains. Many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>deaths are intentional (i.e., pesticides). Others
>>>>>>>>>>>aren't intentional (e.g., flooding during irrigation,
>>>>>>>>>>>burning fields, predation when croplands are
>>>>>>>>>>>harvested, slicing and dicing during planting and
>>>>>>>>>>>harvest, etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That maybe so, but the it doesn't take anything away
>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>nemo's correct statement; nothing *has* to die to
>>>>>>>>>>provide
>>>>>>>>>>vegetarians with food.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>well, you mean nothing with a face has to die.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Has to die" is meaningless sophistry when you know damn
>>>>>>>>well that animals DO die in the normal course of
>>>>>>>>commercial-scale agriculture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They might,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They do die in the NORMAL course of commercial-scale
>>>>>>agriculture.
>>>>>
>>>>>That may be so, occasionally, but are you honest enough to
>>>>>say that they don't have to? So far you've shown that you
>>>>>aren't.
>>>>
>>>>=============================
>>>>Not as long as you refuse to admit facts, killer.
>>>
>>>Then it's certain you're aware of the fact but won't give in
>>>to
>>>it unless I agree with something you say first. That's
>>>hilarious.
>>>Why are you so ashamed of your diet on meat, Rick?

>>
>> =======================
>> LOL It is you that is unwilling to admit your bloody
>> footprints, killer. I have always admited that I kill.

>
> You'd look even sillier if you tried to deny that as well, so
> when and where are you going to summon up the courage and admit
> that a vegetarian can eat food that doesn't require the killing
> of animals?

==============================
Just as soon as your delusions subside, killer.


> <cut>
>
>>>>"Occasionlly"
>>>
>>>Rather than *all the time*, as you seem to be insisting, yes.

>>
>> ==============================
>> Yes, ALL the time, fool.

>
> No, that just plain ridiculous. Animals aren't killed while
> producers grown every single piece of fruit or vegetable.
> <cut>

============================
OK Then just the ones that keep you alive, fool


>
>>>I've grown veg without the use of any pesticides at all for
>>>years.
>>>It can be grown without it. Animals don't have to die in order
>>>to
>>>provide vegetarians with food.

>>
>> ===========================
>> Not and provide you with anywhere near the amount you need to
>> live.

>
> Yes, even to live on for short periods of time.
> <cut>

========================
Nope...

>
>>>> What are you afraid of?
>>>>=========================
>>>>Nothing you have to offer, fool.
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's false. Your shame has made you incapable of being
>>>honest
>>>concerning vegetarian diets, so much so that you can't even
>>>bring
>>>yourself to admit basic truths about it.

>>
>> ===========
>> No it has not.

>
> Yes, it has. These denials of yours are proof of it. Your shame
> is so deep that you can't even bring yourself to freely admit
> that
> a vegetable or a piece of fruit *can* be produced without the
> killing of animals.

=================================
LOL I haven't denied anything fool. I have exposed your
ignorance and delusions though. That's why you have to continue
to snipp out what doesn't fit your brainwashing...





http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html




  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

Phil Odox wrote:
<...>
> It means that a vegetarian can eat without killing animals.


But vegetarians DON'T eat without killing animals.

> That's saying a lot more than nothing, fool.


No, it's an empty and meaningless gesture.
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

Phil Odox wrote:
>>> Animals don't have to die in vegetable production.

>>
>> But they *do*.

>
> Occasionally,


Every day. Normally. Systematically.

> yes,


End of argument. The fact that they DO die makes your argument
completely irrelevant.

> but they certainly don't have to.


They certainly DO die. And that's the fly in your ointment, fruitcake --
reality trumps your fantasy.

>>That makes vegetarians who claim some form of virtue
>>arising from a meatless diet to be hypocrites.

>
> How so?


Because they talk the talk. They don't walk the walk.

> They choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals *have*
> to die for their food,


They choose a diet in which animals DO die. That makes their ethical
claims pretty ****ing hollow, and makes them hypocrites.

> and that's what ethical vegetarianism is
> all about.


"Ethical vegetarian" is oxymoronic and nothing but empty gestures from
empty souls.
  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

Phil Odox wrote:
>>>> Animals by the millions die in the production of your veggies
>>>
>>> I don't believe that the numbers are that high,

>>
>> They are.
>>
>>> and even if they
>>> were, they didn't have to die. Vegetables and fruit can be grown
>>> without killing animals,

>>
>> Yet they are.

>
> I don't believe you, and until you produce some evidence supporting
> your claim I have every reason to continue disbelieving you.


You keep snipping it, ****:
Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production,
which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with
beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a
model would result in the deaths of *300 million* fewer animals
annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a
total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is
mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and
forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain,
beans, and corn.

If it's about actually saving animal lives, why are you snipping
information about practical ideas that actually accomplish it?

Face it, your argument is specious on the grounds that your real
objection is people eating meat. You don't really give a **** about
animals. If you did, your goal wouldn't be meaningless prattle about "it
doesn't have to be like this" (but it is). It would be about finding a
solution that actually works.

>>> so if one has a moral conscience and
>>> can't bring themselves to intentionally kill them,

>>
>>
>>
>> Causing collateral death or injury through personal consumption doesn't
>> exculpate a vegetarian consumer from any moral guilt for them.

>
> What guilt?


The guilt you should have if actual animal suffering is a criterion for
action. You're so hung up on hypotheticals that you refuse to concede
that animals DO die for your diet even though you don't eat them. Some
"solution" -- you can't even address the nature of the problem.

> I have no moral guilt over them.


Then eat them. They're dead already from pesticides, being run over,
sliced and diced, etc.

> They don't have to die.


They do. If you think killing animals is wrong, you're culpable for
their deaths. Fortunately, I'm here to clarify your muddled thinking. As
I wrote above, your argument is specious on the grounds that your real
objection is people eating meat -- you don't really give a **** about
animals. If you did, your goal wouldn't be meaningless prattle about "it
doesn't have to be like this" (but it is). It would be about finding a
solution that actually works to reduce animal suffering and harm. But go
ahead and babble about hypotheticals since that makes you feel like
you're doing something virtuous (even though you're not).

>>> the best and
>>> only option is to eat vegetables instead.

>>
>>
>>
>> Bullshit.

>
> Not at all.


Absolute bullshit.

> Why would a vegan choose a diet that kills animals


You tell me. Read this first:
What goes unaccounted for in Regan's vegan conclusion, according
to Davis, is the number of animals who are inadvertently killed
during crop production and harvest.

"Vegan diets are not bloodless diets," Davis said. "Millions of
animals die every year to provide products used in vegan diets."

"Over the years that I have been studying animal rights
theories, I have never found anyone who has considered the
deaths of - or, the 'harm' to - animals of the field," Davis
said. "This, it seems to me, is a serious omission."

Consequently, Davis asks what is the morally relevant difference
between the field mouse and the cow that makes it okay to kill
one but not the other so that humans may eat.

Few studies document the losses of rabbits, mice, pheasants,
snakes and other field animals in planting and harvesting crops.
Said one researcher: "Because most of these animals have been
seen as expendable, or not seen at all, few scientific studies
have been done measuring agriculture's effects on their
populations."

Davis has found evidence that suggests that the unseen losses of
field animals are very high. One study documented that a single
operation, mowing alfalfa, caused a 50 percent reduction in the
gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every
pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of
herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of
the field....

Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production,
which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with
beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a
model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals
annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a
total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is
mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and
forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain,
beans, and corn.

Applying the Least Harm Principle, Davis argues that people may
be morally obliged to consume a diet based on plants and grazing
ruminants in order to cause the least harm to animals.
http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../20024572.html

> Would you buy and eat the flesh of humans,


Non sequitur.

>>> Do you have the courage

>>
>> Do YOU have the courage


I see you don't.


  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <cut>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>> Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>>>>>> And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guess again, you prancing poof. Plenty of animals DO die as a
>>>>>>>>>>> result of the farming, transportation, and storage practices
>>>>>>>>>>> associated with grains. Many of the deaths are intentional
>>>>>>>>>>> (i.e., pesticides). Others aren't intentional (e.g., flooding
>>>>>>>>>>> during irrigation, burning fields, predation when croplands
>>>>>>>>>>> are harvested, slicing and dicing during planting and
>>>>>>>>>>> harvest, etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That maybe so, but the it doesn't take anything away from
>>>>>>>>>> nemo's correct statement; nothing *has* to die to provide
>>>>>>>>>> vegetarians with food.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> well, you mean nothing with a face has to die.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Has to die" is meaningless sophistry when you know damn well
>>>>>>>> that animals DO die in the normal course of commercial-scale
>>>>>>>> agriculture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They might,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They do die in the NORMAL course of commercial-scale agriculture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That may be so,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is so.
>>>>
>>>>> occasionally,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. NORMALLY. ROUTINELY.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No,

>>
>>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> and even then we still have the fact
>>> that they didn't have to.

>>
>>
>>
>> That's a wish, not a fact.
>>
>>>>>> Yoursophistry, as noble as you may think it is to prate
>>>>>> incessantly about not harming animals, is specious and meaningless
>>>>>> since it's fantasy-based rather than reality-based.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've grown tons of the stuff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Liar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're very quick to call everyone you disagree with a liar,

>>
>>
>>
>> Wrong, not everyone.

>
> I've been following the discussions on this board for a few days now,


Small sample problem.

> and you are very quick to call everyone you disagree with a liar. Don't
> deny it.


I have to deny that because it's not true.

>>>> and yet again you've failed to address the fact that
>>>> commercially-grown wheat and rye causes harm to animals
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That might well be true

>>
>>
>>
>> It IS true,

>
> Not in all circumstances,


It is in yours. You're no different than someone who eats meat, except
you're disingenuous, hypocritical, and sanctimonious about it.
  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

true believer and wide-eyed dreamer Phil Odox wrote:
>>>> BTW...
>>>>
>>>> Why did you ignore this?
>>>>
>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater the
>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your diet.
>>>
>>> No

>>
>> Yes. The more you eat, the more animals die. That's reality.

>
> No


Yes.

> No, that's nonsense. It could be


No, it isn't.
  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

wide-eyed Utopian zealot Phil Odox wrote:
>>> Your shame has made you incapable of being honest
>>> concerning vegetarian diets,

>>
>> You're the one who's being dishonest

>
> There's nothing dishonest


Yes, there is.

> <cut without reading>


Heh! Here it is again, if you ever grow a pair:
What goes unaccounted for in Regan's vegan conclusion, according
to Davis, is the number of animals who are inadvertently killed
during crop production and harvest.

"Vegan diets are not bloodless diets," Davis said. "Millions of
animals die every year to provide products used in vegan diets."

"Over the years that I have been studying animal rights
theories, I have never found anyone who has considered the
deaths of - or, the 'harm' to - animals of the field," Davis
said. "This, it seems to me, is a serious omission."

Consequently, Davis asks what is the morally relevant difference
between the field mouse and the cow that makes it okay to kill
one but not the other so that humans may eat.

Few studies document the losses of rabbits, mice, pheasants,
snakes and other field animals in planting and harvesting crops.
Said one researcher: "Because most of these animals have been
seen as expendable, or not seen at all, few scientific studies
have been done measuring agriculture's effects on their
populations."

Davis has found evidence that suggests that the unseen losses of
field animals are very high. One study documented that a single
operation, mowing alfalfa, caused a 50 percent reduction in the
gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every
pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of
herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of
the field....

Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production,
which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with
beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a
model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals
annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a
total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is
mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and
forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain,
beans, and corn.

Applying the Least Harm Principle, Davis argues that people may
be morally obliged to consume a diet based on plants and grazing
ruminants in order to cause the least harm to animals.
http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../20024572.html

You also need to respond to what I wrote:
The more commercially-grown food you consume, the greater the
number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your diet.
That pile of dead and wounded animals, if you had the guts to
even start to count through it, is the evidence that a
vegetarian diet is a meaningless gesture if the criterion for
not harming animals actually means NOT HARMING ANIMALS.

If you consider harm to animals to be a moral issue, your virtue
isn't based on your pipedreams about mythical production that
doesn't harm animals, but on your actual consumption and how
that consumption affects animals. You get some reprieve to the
extent that you grow some of your own food. But since you likely
consume foods that are grown on a commercial scale (e.g., grains
and legumes) and stored (where health codes REQUIRE proactive
pest control), you DO kill animals through your consumption.
That makes you no better than someone who eats meat by your own
criterion.

You're a poseur. Don't be offended or feel alone. You're neither the
first nor the last. The question is whether you'll be honest enough
about it to do something about it or if you'll continue spouting off
your delusional platitudes.
  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
kohlrabi_croce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


Phil Odox wrote:
> usual suspect wrote:
> >
> >You're no different than someone who eats meat

>
> Trying to drag me down to your level proves one thing only; you
> recognise that my position as a vegetarian is loftier than your own.
> You feel ashamed of yourself for not having the courage to accept
> that to justify your meat snaffling is to acknowledge you're doing
> something immoral.


Ok, if you feel you really must engage these two, morals would
probably not be a very effective approach. I would try logic
instead.
Internet whackos tend to be lacking in that area.

For example: http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html.
The author of this can't even do math.

However, the real question is, why don't rick and usual suspect
have lives? Even logic probably won't work, because they don't
have any of that either. The combination of black and white thinking
and fixation on name-calling are a good indication.

tracy

ps for some reason I am not able to download usenet posts through free
agent
the last couple days, so I have to use google.

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
kohlrabi_croce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

> >
> I started off by cutting out all dairy products when going vegetarian.
> Shortly after that I moved next door to a goat keeper and started drinking
> about three pints a week. My neighbour suffered a stroke about two years
> ago and gave up keeping them, and since then I've noticed higher energy
> levels similar to those I experienced when first going vegetarian.


Higher energy sounds pretty good.

tracy



  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>

> <cut>
>
>>>Then explain how growing a piece of fruit or a vegetable
>>>*must*
>>>include the death of an animal.
>>><cut>===================

>>
>> In the amount needed to keep you alive, yes,

>
> You've conceded the fact that vegetables can be grown in
> quantities
> large enough to keep me alive without killing animals,

====================================
No, I haven't killer. Your fantasy doesn't work...


so explain why
> you think vegetarians are hypocrites for choosing to follow
> such a
> diet that's clearly so suited to their needs.

========================
No, it's not, and you copntinue to prove that it doesn't fit
their claims.




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>BTW...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why did you ignore this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the
>>>>>> greater the
>>>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your
>>>>>> diet.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, that's nonsense. It could be that the more vegetables
>>>>>one eats
>>>>>the fewer the deaths caused because food producers have more
>>>>>money
>>>>>to spend on better farming equipment and training.
>>>>
>>>>==============================
>>>>You really are this delusional and stupid, aren't you?
>>>
>>>You need to grow up and stop calling people names. If you
>>>can't
>>>deal with the facts and acknowledge the truth in them, say so
>>>and run along.
>>><cut>==============================

>>
>> LOL You're the one that needs to grow up

>
> No, it's you that needs to grow up. Correlation does not
> amount to
> causation. It's a fallacy to argue that a higher consumption
> level
> of vegetables will lead to higher death rates in vegetable
> farming.

===============================
LOL Try learning a few facts, fool. The more need for food, the
more mechinazation and inputs from the petro-chemical industry
are required. More of each of those causes more animals to die.
Too bad you're too brainwashed to understand, eh hypocrite?



> One might buy less and thereby urge food producers to cut even
> more
> corners than they already do and cause more. On the other hand,
> one
> might buy more and thereby urge farmers to make improvements on
> their
> methods and kill less. You simply don't know.

============================
Yes, I do...


> <cut>
>
>>>>>Higher consumption levels doesn't automatically mean more
>>>>>animal deaths in vegetable
>>>>>production, and if it did, they don't have to die.
>>>>
>>>>=================================
>>>>yes, it does
>>>
>>>No, it doesn't, for the reason I've given.

>>
>> ========================
>> Yes, it does

>
> Not at all. Read what I wrote above and below to see why. Do
> you have the courage to admit you're wrong here as well, or is
> that shame coming back to bite at your conscience again?
> =========================

What you wrote is ignorant spew, as usual...


>> I might buy more
>>
>>>produce and thereby reduce the numbers of fatalities by
>>>encouraging food producers to use better methods. If I buy
>>>less produce from them, then fatalities might rise because
>>>food producers might then be encouraged to cut corners.
>>><cut>==================

>>
>> You failed econ, right

>
> No.
> <cut list of pesticides without looking, because there is more
> than pesticides>




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>true believer and wide-eyed dreamer Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>BTW...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why did you ignore this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the
>>>>>> greater the
>>>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for your
>>>>>> diet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes. The more you eat, the more animals die. That's reality.
>>>
>>>No, it's a fallacy.
>>><restore>
>>>No, that's nonsense. It could be that the more vegetables one
>>>eats
>>>the fewer the deaths caused because food producers have more
>>>money
>>>to spend on better farming equipment and training. Higher
>>>consumption
>>>levels doesn't automatically mean more animal deaths in
>>>vegetable
>>>production, and if it did, they don't have to die.

>>
>> ===========================
>> Still delusional

>
> Not at all. Read what I wrote again and see where your
> fallacious
> thinking trips you up. Correlation does not amount to
> causation.
> It's a fallacy to argue that a higher consumption level of
> vegetables
> will lead to higher death rates in vegetable farming. One might
> buy
> less and thereby urge food producers to cut even more corners
> than
> they already do and cause more. On the other hand, one might
> buy
> more and thereby urge farmers to make improvements on their
> methods
> and kill less. You simply don't know.

=====================
Yes, I do. They have no incentive to cause fewer animals to die
fool. You reward them for killing animals to keep your veggies
clean, cheap and convenient. You continuew to prove that killing
animals unnecessarily is not a problem for you, afterall, here
you are, still posting your ignorance to usenet, killer...





http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> true believer and wide-eyed dreamer Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>>>> BTW...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why did you ignore this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more commercially-grown food you consume, the
>>>>>> greater the
>>>>>> number of animals injured, poisoned, or killed for
>>>>>> your diet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes. The more you eat, the more animals die. That's reality.
>>>
>>>
>>> No

>>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> No, that's nonsense. It could be

>>
>>
>> No, it isn't.

>
> Correlation does not amount to causation. It's a fallacy to
> argue
> that a higher consumption level of vegetables will lead to
> higher
> death rates in vegetable farming.

===========================
No it is not fool. Because production of veggies directly kills
animals. Producing more will kill more.
You really are this stupid, aren't you?



One might buy less and thereby
> urge food producers to cut even more corners than they already
> do
> and cause more. On the other hand, one might buy more and
> thereby
> urge farmers to make improvements on their methods and kill
> less.
> You simply don't know.

===================
Yes, I do. You continue to prove that you don't though,
hypocrite...




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>

> <cut>
>
>>>Are you still trying to tell me that a piece of fruit or a
>>>potato cannot possibly grow without the involvement of
>>>animal deaths? Is your shame so profound that it stops you
>>>from admitting the simple fact that vegetables *can* be grown
>>>in this way?

>>
>> ==========================
>> Is your brainwashing so complete as to think your fantasy
>> foods can feed you

>
> You've conceded the fact that they can, so I don't know why
> you're still trying to resist being as honest in this post,
> unless that shame has caught up on you again.
> <cut>

=====================================
Noi, I have not. You cannot live on your fantasy foods....


>
>>>>I'm explaining that you're being dishonest
>>>
>>>It's not dishonest to say that a piece of fruit or a vegetable
>>>can be grown without killing animals. The dishonesty and lack
>>>of courage to admit this simple fact is all yours.
>>><cut>===============

>>
>> LOL The dishonesty is from you

>
> While you fail to show where my statement is dishonest, the
> dishonesty and lies are all yours.

=============================
That you make claims that you cannot backup, and that you know
are lys....





http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html








  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...



snip....


>>>>=========================
>>>>LOL It's your denial of facts that are on display, killer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I haven't denied that animals occasionally die during the
>>>production process of vegetables.

>>
>> ===========================
>> ROTFLMAO There's your denial right there

>
> Where?

===========================
explained in you dishonest snipping, fool.

I've graciously accepted your claim that animals
> are occasionally killed during vegetable production,

=========================
And again, in your dishonesty here. Millions upon millions of
animals is not 'occasionally', killer.



but
> the stark fact remains that the needn't have to die, and
> you've been forced to concede that by writing, "OK Then
> just the ones that keep you alive, fool."
> <cut>

==============================
Yes, they do die, killer. By the millions and millions despite
your fantasy...


>
>>
>> The denial is all yours
>>
>>>while denying the fact that vegetables can be grown without
>>>killing animals, and that denial is all to do with the shame
>>>you feel while in the company of those who make ethical
>>>choices.

>>
>> ===========================
>> In the amounts that you live on, yes

>
> Wrong, and you've admitted as such by writing, "OK Then just
> the ones that keep you alive, fool."

===========================
Exactly, you cannot live on the fantasy you keep spewing...


>
>> I disagree

>
> No you don't. When I told you, "Animals aren't killed while
> producers grown every single piece of fruit or vegetable.",
> you replied, "OK Then just the ones that keep you alive,
> fool."
> Was telling the truth for once too much for your shame to cope
> with and now forced you to go back on what you earlier wrote?
> <cut>

================================
Nope, the dishonety is still yours killer.






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>> <...>
>>
>>> It means that a vegetarian can eat without killing animals.

>>
>>
>> But vegetarians DON'T eat without killing animals.
>>

> Yes they do, and if animals are killed they weren't necessary
> for that food to exist.

===================================
LOL But the animals are still just as dead, killer. By the
millions....


>
>>> That's saying a lot more than nothing, fool.

>>
>>
>> No, it's an empty and meaningless gesture.

>
> Not to the vegetarian who has a moral conscience and wont eat
> a meat diet that always means animals *must* die for their
> food.

========================
Even when their diet causes even more death? Thanks for proving
it's all about a simple rule for simple minds, hypocrite...






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>>><...>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Animals don't have to die in vegetable production.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But they *do*.
>>>>>
>>>>>Occasionally, yes, but they certainly don't have to.
>>>>>
>>>>>That makes vegetarians who claim some form of virtue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>arising from a meatless diet to be hypocrites.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>How so? They choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals
>>>>>*have*
>>>>>to die for their food, and that's what ethical vegetarianism
>>>>>is
>>>>>all about.
>>>>
>>>>====================
>>>>but they do,
>>>
>>>No,they don't.

>>
>> =====================
>> Ah, more dishonest snipping

>
> No. Unlike you I make a note of where I cut.

=========================
No fool, you did not liar.... You continue to dishonestly snip
out ...routinely, systematically and deliberately. Too
bad you have to keep snipping the facts and pretending they
aren't there, hypocrite....



I've dealt with
> your list of pesticides a couple of times already by telling
> you they aren't necessary for vegetable production.

=================================
Yes, they are fool... You can't live on your fantasy..

Deaths
> aren't necessary for vegetable production, and you've already
> concede this point by writing, "OK Then just the ones that
> keep you alive, fool."

==============================
Besides, there is more there than just pesticides, but since your
brainwashing controls your 2 remaining brain cells, you can't be
bothered with facts, eh hypocrite?


> <cut dealt with list of pesticides>

=====
Thanks for again proving that animals are of no concern to you,
fool...





http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>>> Animals don't have to die in vegetable production.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But they *do*.
>>>
>>>
>>> Occasionally,

>>
>>
>> Every day. Normally. Systematically.

>
> But they needn't, even if your claim is true, and your shame
> is stopping you from admitting it.
>
>>> yes,

>>
>>
>> End of argument.

>
> Not when you cut my sentences about to make your point,

========================
ROTFLMAO, This from the fool that has been doing that to my
posts sincve the beginning!! You really are precious liitle
boy...


it
> isn't. Far from it. Animals occasionally die during vegetable
> production, but they needn't.
>
> The fact that they DO die makes your argument
>> completely irrelevant.
>>

> Not at all. I choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals
> *have*
> to die for my food, and that's what ethical vegetarianism is
> all
> about.

=============================
What a bunch of hooey. Thanks for proving that the reality of
your diet doesn't matter, hypocrite.
You can continue to kill more animals than some meat eaters if
you want, but don't try assuaging your guilt by pretending that
just because you didn't mean for them to die that somehow their
deaths don't count. What a fool...


>
>>> but they certainly don't have to.

>>
>>
>> They certainly DO die.

>
> Sometimes, maybe, but the fact that they don't have to die
> still
> remains as solid as ever.

======================
No, it doesn't remain so at the levels at which you eat,
hypocrite. You can try convincing yourself of that, but the
truth is different than your fantasy.


> <cut>
>
>>>> That makes vegetarians who claim some form of virtue
>>>> arising from a meatless diet to be hypocrites.
>>>
>>>
>>> How so?

>>
>>
>> Because they talk the talk. They don't walk the walk.
>>

> Vegetarians choose a diet where animal deaths aren't a
> requirement,
> so not only do they talk the good talk, they walk the good walk
> as
> well. That fact shames you, and that's the reason behind your
> petty
> lying and dodging on this issue.

=======================
LOL That's why you keep dishonestly snipping out the truth,
fool?

>
>>> They choose a diet which doesn't mean that animals *have*
>>> to die for their food,

>>
>>
>> They choose a diet in which animals DO die.

>
> No, they opt for a diet that doesn't include any necessary
> deaths.
> What part in that don't you understand?

=======================
What part of millions upon millions of deaths do you not
understand, killer? You continue to prove that you care nothing
about caueing fewer animals to die. Afterall, here you are
killing animals just for your entertainment, hypocrite.


>
>
> That makes their ethical
>> claims pretty ****ing hollow, and makes them hypocrites.
>>

> You're desperately trying to make that stick, but you also know
> that it's a just transparent, desperate smear against those who
> walk the good walk. You feel inferior to the vegetarian because
> he makes an ethical choice about his lifestyle that you'll
> never
> be able to follow yourself, and so you're here on a vegetarian
> board throwing sticks at them.

================================
ROTFLMAO You really are just too much fun, hypocrite... You
have no idea what you're talking about, and what impact your diet
has. Thanks for proving the stupidity of veg*ns...


>
>>> and that's what ethical vegetarianism is
>>> all about.

>>
>>
>> "Ethical vegetarian" is oxymoronic and nothing but empty
>> gestures from empty souls.

>
> Says you, a corpse snaffling inferior who uses all his energies
> trying to disrupt vegan news boards. Go figure, because I
> already
> have.

===========================
Ah yes, the typical vegan hatred of others. You continue to
prove that ethics mean mean nothing to you when it comes to
killing animals, hypocrite. Afterall, here you are, displaying
your ignorance for all the world to see!






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>usual suspect wrote:
>>>
>>>>Phil Odox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Animals by the millions die in the production of your
>>>>>>veggies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't believe that the numbers are that high,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>They are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and even if they
>>>>>were, they didn't have to die. Vegetables and fruit can be
>>>>>grown
>>>>>without killing animals,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yet they are.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I don't believe you, and until you produce some evidence
>>>supporting
>>>your claim I have every reason to continue disbelieving you.
>>>

> I'm waiting for that evidence, Rick.
>
>>>
>>>>>so if one has a moral conscience and
>>>>>can't bring themselves to intentionally kill them,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Causing collateral death or injury through personal
>>>>consumption doesn't
>>>>exculpate a vegetarian consumer from any moral guilt for
>>>>them.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What guilt? I have no moral guilt over them. They don't have
>>>to die.

>>
>> ===========================
>> Yet they do

>
> But they don't *have* to, and that's the point you're trying
> so desperately to run away from. You wont do it, and that's
> why you're on a vegetarian news board taking pot shots at
> those who make the ethical choices you're incapable of making.
>
> , at your behest, hypocrite...
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>the best and
>>>>>only option is to eat vegetables instead.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bullshit.
>>>
>>>Not at all. Why would a vegan choose a diet that kills animals
>>>when
>>>a vegetarian diet means that animals don't have to die for
>>>one's food?
>>>Would you buy and eat the flesh of humans, or would you choose
>>>a diet
>>>that didn't have to kill any humans at all?
>>>=====================================

>>
>> Because no vegan here has made that choice

>
> I've made that choice, for one, and I've no doubt that others
> have made that same choice. It isn't all about diet for me
> because I'm young and fit and naturally tend to eat only the
> wholesome foods anyway. My concept of rights is what lies
> behind
> my reasoning to be a vegetarian.

=============================
LOL No it isn't because you haven't thought it all out. You
care nothing about causing unnecessary death and suffering to
animals for something as unneeded as your entertainment,
hypocrite. Why should anyone believe that your diet makes a
difference. You've done nothing to measure what foods you eat
cause the most/least harm because you have your simple rule for
your simple mind, 'eat no meat.'


>
> Where meat eaters are concerned, their most glaringly obvious
> error is to assume sentient beings with interests can be harmed
> and killed for our own ends simply because they fall outside
> our
> class system.

=[=======================
LOL Wow, what a coincidence, that's exactly what you do too!


This error is grounded on the false assumption that
> because animals fall outside our class system it is morally
> permissible to cause them harm, even though this assumption
> cannot
> be supported logically and merely takes for granted or assumes
> that which it sets out to prove.

================================
Then why do youmake this error, hypocrite?


Such question begging when used
> as a replacement for any rational argument only serves to
> demonstrate weak thinking and a tacit leaning toward racism.

===============================
LOL Ah yes, next it will be nazis, right? Animals have NO
rights, and never will. And, you even prove that fool. Youn are
here, contributing to the massive death and suffering of animals
for no more reason than your selfish want of entertainment. Your
entire consumer-oriented, conveninec-driven lifestyle is built on
the dead bodies of animals. Animals killed because of YOUR
choices.



Those
> who look beyond the mere utility of beings and take on a
> responsible
> position toward them can argue that such an obligation infers a
> right against being used as a mere utility.

=================================
Meaningless babble, when spoken by a hypocrite such as you...
The animals you kill for your diet suffer far more horrendous,
brutal, and inhumane deaths than the animals I eat experience.


If humans are exempt
> from being used as such on the grounds that we must preserve
> the
> concept of rights on a philosophical level, or because we can
> suffer pain and the loss of our lives, excluding sentient
> animals
> from this exemption calls into question the validity of our own
> claim and whether preserving that concept is a valid pursuit. I
> believe that it is, and I believe it’s essential to demonstrate
> a loyalty to that concept by acknowledging animal rights.

===============================
No fool, you neither acknowledge animals rights or demonstrate
any loyalty to it. Your hypocrisy is too evident..


>
> Another glaringly obvious error is to assume that our role as
> beneficiaries of animal exploitation includes a requirement to
> produce more benefactors on the grounds that had we not been
> their
> beneficiaries, then such benefactors would not have been born
> to
> enjoy the welfare we provide them. The error here is to assume
> that
> said benefactors are being brought into a better state than a
> previous
> one, when nothing can be said about that previous state of
> non-being
> to make such a judgement.
>
> These fundamental errors in thinking when used to justify the
> deaths
> of animals must be challenged, because while they persist, our
> decision to kill them on those basis' is immoral.

===============================
You should know all about fundamental errors in thinking fool,
it's all you have...


> <cut>






http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html







  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:45:36 GMT, usual suspect >
wrote:

>Joe wrote:
><...>
>> Maybe I don't agree with alot of what Usual S comments about, but his
>> posts at the very least usually has 'stocky' substance.

>
>Which is more than can be said about your asinine replies lately. WTF is
>this bullshit about "monosaturated" fats you were passing off? Do you
>really think that makes you appear intelligent? And then you wanted to
>argue whether fruits are actually vegetables. Talk about a waste of space.


Ranting and throwing out 'study says this and that' in rabid charades
shows you have a good stock of links and read alot- but you don't use
these correctly many times, so that in itself shows you are not so
intelligent.

Waste of space is the dozens of hours you and Rick have put into
typing out grade 5 insults and repetitive quips.

As for the fruits and vegetables arguement, you and Rick can answer
that; which one of you is the fruit and/or are you both veggies on
steroids. Or are they interchangeable for you both... like eggplants
and tomaHtoes.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Animals by the millions die in the production of your
>>>>>> veggies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that the numbers are that high,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are.
>>>>
>>>>> and even if they
>>>>> were, they didn't have to die. Vegetables and fruit can be
>>>>> grown
>>>>> without killing animals,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yet they are.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe you, and until you produce some evidence
>>> supporting
>>> your claim I have every reason to continue disbelieving you.

>>
>>
>> You keep snipping it, ****:

>
> Still throwing sticks? Can't you do better than this?
>
>> Davis proposes

>
> a bunch of numbers based on guesswork. Provide facts, not
> guesswork.

============================
ROTFLMAO This from a liar that has never presented any facts to
back up his claims. What a hoot!!


>
>>>>> so if one has a moral conscience and
>>>>> can't bring themselves to intentionally kill them,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Causing collateral death or injury through personal
>>>> consumption doesn't
>>>> exculpate a vegetarian consumer from any moral guilt for
>>>> them.
>>>
>>>
>>> What guilt?

>>
>>
>> The guilt you should have if actual animal suffering is a
>> criterion for action. You're so hung up on hypotheticals that
>> you refuse to concede
>> that animals DO die for your diet even though you don't eat
>> them.

>
> When have I ever refused to concede that animals occasionally
> die
> in the course of vegetable and fruit production?

=========================
Right there fool. It's not occasional, it's routine, systematic
and deliberate, and in the millions upon millions. Why so much
dishonesty on your part, hypocrite? Afraid to accept the truth
because it blows your inane house of cards down?


>
>
> Some
>> "solution" -- you can't even address the nature of the
>> problem.
>>

> I will if you explain it.
>
>>> I have no moral guilt over them.

>>
>>
>> Then eat them.

>
> Why?
>
>
>> They're dead already from pesticides, being run over, sliced
>> and diced, etc.
>>

> Those aren't good reasons to eat meat.
>
>>> They don't have to die.

>>
>>
>> They do.

>
> No, they don't. Vegetables and fruits can be grown without
> killing animals. Your shame wont let you admit to that fact,
> and by god does it show.
>
>
> If you think killing animals is wrong, you're culpable for
>> their deaths.

>
> Non sequitur. For example; I think that the killing of humans
> for oil is wrong, so how does using oil make me culpable for
> their deaths? It doesn't: the conclusion doesn't logically
> follow from the premiss.
>
>> Fortunately, I'm here to clarify your muddled thinking.

>
> Your earlier non sequitur shows you're not in a position to
> put yourself forward as a clear-thinker.
>
>
> As
>> I wrote above, your argument is specious on the grounds that
>> your real objection is people eating meat

>
> Since when did you put yourself forward as my spokesman?
>
>
> -- you don't really give a **** about
>> animals.

>
> Trying to rank me alongside those like yourself makes clear
> only one thing; you realise that your position as an animal-
> hater is a loathsome position and lower than mine, and you're
> trying your best to drag me down to that level.

======================
You're already far below us, fool. You see, we acknowledge that
animals die for our diets and lifestyle. You still try to
pretend that they don't for yours, and even make all kinds of
excuses for your actions. Actions that cause massive animal
deaths. The hypocrisy of your position is apparent and should be
embarrassing for you, killer.


>
> <cut>




http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
>> "Phil Odox" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>rick wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>><cut>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Animals by the millions die in the production of your
>>>>>>veggies
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't believe that the numbers are that high,
>>>>
>>>>============================
>>>>Willful ignorance.
>>>
>>>Then provide evidence pertaining to these numbers and
>>>enlighten me.

>>
>> ========================
>> ROTFLMAO Why fool? You've been snipping them out all night,
>> killer....
>>

> Your list of pesticides doesn't include any evidence apart from
> some guesswork by the pesticide manufacturers. That isn't
> evidence
> of the millions you've claimed exists.

=================================
ROTFLMAO Thanks for proving that your dogma requires you to
ignore the truth. The sites I posted are not from manufacturers,
fool. And all the sites are not about pesticides. But then, a
usenet vegan wannbe has never let facts get in the way of a good
fantasy and delusions, right hypocrite?



>
>
>>
>>>
>>>The trademark of veg*ns everywhere...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> and even if they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>were, they didn't have to die.
>>>>
>>>>===============================
>>>>Yes, they did.
>>>
>>>No, they didn't. Animals don't have to die to produce a
>>>vegetable
>>>or vegetables.

>>
>> ==========================
>> For you to live they do.

>
> When I told you, "Animals aren't killed while producers grow
> every single
> piece of fruit or vegetable.", you replied, "OK Then just the
> ones that
> keep you alive, fool." Did your shame make you forget that?
> <cut>==========================

Nope, no shame at all. It's t
just that your fantasy isn't reality and the way that the veggies
you eat are grown. It's a strawman. It's a house of cards built
so that you can pretend to feel better than anybody else, despite
your obvious hypocrisy.








http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html





  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:28:39 GMT, usual suspect >
wrote:

wrote:


>IOW, it shows you something about the real world as opposed to the
>Utopian delusion so prevalent among vegans.


>

I'll assume you know what ROFLMFAO means;
Right now, EVERYONE who grows vast amouts of vegetables/herbs in their
backyards, balconies, rented mini-land plots, etc., are asking if you
just came down from Mars.
No more needs to be said- if you are that petty-minded to actually
believe anyone who doesn't live on a farm can't grow edible vegetables
successfully you really need to get out of your 'cloister-mode'.




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.food.vegan
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Something for Chrismas


"Phil Odox" > wrote in message
...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> Phil Odox wrote:
>>
>>>>>> <cut>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Savory made from nuts
>>>>>>>> Breadcrumbs wheat and rye.
>>>>>>>> Tastes as good, nutritious too
>>>>>>>> And nothing has to die!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a correct statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guess again, you prancing poof. Plenty of animals DO die
>>>>>>> as a result of the farming, transportation, and storage
>>>>>>> practices associated with grains. Many of the deaths are
>>>>>>> intentional (i.e., pesticides). Others aren't intentional
>>>>>>> (e.g., flooding during irrigation, burning fields,
>>>>>>> predation when croplands are harvested, slicing and
>>>>>>> dicing during planting and harvest, etc.).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That maybe so, but the it doesn't take anything away from
>>>>>> nemo's correct statement; nothing *has* to die to provide
>>>>>> vegetarians with food.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> well, you mean nothing with a face has to die.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Has to die" is meaningless sophistry when you know damn
>>>> well that animals DO die in the normal course of
>>>> commercial-scale agriculture.
>>>>
>>> They might,

>>
>>
>> They do die in the NORMAL course of commercial-scale
>> agriculture.

>
> That may be so, occasionally, but are you honest enough to
> say that they don't have to? So far you've shown that you
> aren't. What are you afraid of?

===================================
What are YOU afraid of? Why are you afraid of the truth of
animals deaths in agriculture, killer? Guilty conscience?
Afraid that if your concede the facts that your brainwashing will
suffer?


>
> Your
>> sophistry, as noble as you may think it is to prate
>> incessantly about not harming animals, is specious and
>> meaningless since it's fantasy-based rather than
>> reality-based.

>
> I've grown tons of the stuff during my life without killing
> animals. There's nothing unrealistic about that.
> =========================

Lying again I see...





http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






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