Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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Old 28-10-2005, 07:21 PM posted to alt.food.vegan
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default There are no true vegans

Beach Runner wrote:
That's the issue, dummy, and **** you for arrogantly thinking you
corner the market on such care for animals.

I hardly corner the market. Veg*n movements are growing.


Haha, you wish. Vegans and "serious vegetarians" are a stagnant
demographic and they make up less than two-percent of the US population.

With the number of serious vegetarians stagnating at less than
2% according to some estimates, the market potential may be just
too small, though, for a QSR selling to a mass market.
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content.asp?contentid=4949

You might be so (counter-)culturally isolated that you think everyone
is like your little circle. "Veg*n movements" are self-marginalizing
and exclusivist, not exactly the best things for growth.


I see at my local store an "Organic" section,


Non sequitur. That's not a "veg-n movement."

they have fresh squeezed
carrot and orange juice.


And I bet it's purchased in greater quantity by those who eat at least
some meat than by those who eat none.

They have many items that are labeled
vegetarian or vegan. This didn't use to exist.


That's not a sign of a growing movement any more than "fat free" or "no
cholesterol" are signs of growing movements. It's just a label used to
appeal to a segment of the population. Your local store has ALWAYS had
foods suitable for veg-ns, it's just the marketing to them that's changed.

The economic discussion you ignored,


I didn't ignore it. I was amused by your prattle, but thought it wasn't
worth dignifying with a reply.

I had actually hoped you would
engage in the differences and the concept that there are many people
with values and idealism, and capitalism and socialism in pure forms do
not exist. Both need to be tempered.


I disagree.

You appear to love capitalism as
a value in itself.


I would say that I simply value freedom, and that I see no freedom at
all in socialism or what you might call "tempered capitalism." Let me
give you a couple quick examples that show how free markets are tempered
by consumer demands.

First, people individually or collectively can do business with those
whose values they share and avoid commerce with those whose practices
they abhor. That works when dealing with companies one may not like for
whatever reason, such as Monsanto or McDonald's, or with an entire
nation, such as when individuals chose not to travel to South Africa or
invest in companies doing business there during Apartheid.

Second, people can choose whether or not they even participate in a
given market or choose among its substitutes. Vegetarianism itself can
be such a check on a given market, such as when someone objects to the
way livestock are treated. Such people can also resort to alternative
markets like small family farms, eating only what they hunt or catch, etc.

Free markets allow free people to act freely. Command economies -- fully
or partially planned -- don't.

There are thousands of vegetarian groups on Yahoo.


Not a sign of a growing movement. In fact, look at the nyms used on them
and you'll find a lot of the same people posting to different groups.

A new successful
vegetarian restaurant near me that does a brisk business.


Not a sign of a growing movement, just a sign of a successful niche
business.

You probably saw them on the news last year


No, I didn't.

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-10-2005, 11:15 AM posted to alt.food.vegan
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default There are no true vegans



usual suspect wrote:

Beach Runner wrote:

That's the issue, dummy, and **** you for arrogantly thinking you
corner the market on such care for animals.


I hardly corner the market. Veg*n movements are growing.


Haha, you wish. Vegans and "serious vegetarians" are a stagnant
demographic and they make up less than two-percent of the US population.

With the number of serious vegetarians stagnating at less than
2% according to some estimates, the market potential may be just
too small, though, for a QSR selling to a mass market.
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content.asp?contentid=4949

You might be so (counter-)culturally isolated that you think everyone
is like your little circle. "Veg*n movements" are self-marginalizing
and exclusivist, not exactly the best things for growth.



I see at my local store an "Organic" section,



Non sequitur. That's not a "veg-n movement."

they have fresh squeezed carrot and orange juice.



And I bet it's purchased in greater quantity by those who eat at least
some meat than by those who eat none.

They have many items that are labeled vegetarian or vegan. This
didn't use to exist.



That's not a sign of a growing movement any more than "fat free" or "no
cholesterol" are signs of growing movements. It's just a label used to
appeal to a segment of the population. Your local store has ALWAYS had
foods suitable for veg-ns, it's just the marketing to them that's changed.

The economic discussion you ignored,



I didn't ignore it. I was amused by your prattle, but thought it wasn't
worth dignifying with a reply.

I had actually hoped you would engage in the differences and the
concept that there are many people with values and idealism, and
capitalism and socialism in pure forms do not exist. Both need to be
tempered.



I disagree.

You appear to love capitalism as a value in itself.



I would say that I simply value freedom, and that I see no freedom at
all in socialism or what you might call "tempered capitalism." Let me
give you a couple quick examples that show how free markets are tempered
by consumer demands.


By tempered I was referring to legislation and establishments of unions.
They can certainly throttle back "growth". Some legislature helps level
the playing field and protect the greater good, especially environmental
regulations. Even simple ones like old plumbing codes in Chicago and
Boston years ago after initial failures.

Globalization unleveled the playing field. In fact, there is a huge
impact regarding internationalized toxic waste.

But I concede that consumer demands have a huge impact.

First, people individually or collectively can do business with those
whose values they share and avoid commerce with those whose practices
they abhor. That works when dealing with companies one may not like for
whatever reason, such as Monsanto or McDonald's, or with an entire
nation, such as when individuals chose not to travel to South Africa or
invest in companies doing business there during Apartheid.

Individuals do have power.

Second, people can choose whether or not they even participate in a
given market or choose among its substitutes. Vegetarianism itself can
be such a check on a given market, such as when someone objects to the
way livestock are treated. Such people can also resort to alternative
markets like small family farms, eating only what they hunt or catch, etc.

Free markets allow free people to act freely. Command economies -- fully
or partially planned -- don't.


I would compare it to Britain at the turn of the century. Or US at the
turn of the century and minors strikes at Rockefella's coal mines. US
troops massacred the coal workers families.



There are thousands of vegetarian groups on Yahoo.



Not a sign of a growing movement. In fact, look at the nyms used on them
and you'll find a lot of the same people posting to different groups.

A new successful vegetarian restaurant near me that does a brisk
business.



Not a sign of a growing movement, just a sign of a successful niche
business.

You probably saw them on the news last year



No, I didn't.

Thank you for a well written, non insulting reply.


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