Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nag Champa

Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?
Are any Nag Champa incense products non-vegan? I really liked the
Super-Hit samples in my last box and want to try the other scents.
I'll use some sweetgrass or sage in the meantime. Thanks!
-buzz

  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

buzzgun wrote:
> Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
> incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?


So what if it does?

> Are any Nag Champa incense products non-vegan? I really liked the
> Super-Hit samples in my last box and want to try the other scents.
> I'll use some sweetgrass or sage in the meantime. Thanks!


Why do you obsess over what's in your incense? Do you care that incense
smoke contains PAHs and PM10 and that burning incense emits carbon
monoxide? Why do you care more about ****ing bees than you do about your
lungs and your health?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default


usual suspect wrote:
> buzzgun wrote:
> > Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
> > incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?

>
> So what if it does?


Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface. So eat my f*ck. If
it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business. SO buzz off!
Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean I
have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..? I choose to
limit that attachment to plants. I hope your poop smells bad after you
read this too, just to be me.

-buzz

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

buzzgun wrote:
>>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
>>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?

>>
>>So what if it does?

>
> Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.


I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the other
two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.

> So eat my f*ck.


No, thanks.

> If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.


Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your health?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4

> SO buzz off!


I'm staying right here.

> Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean I
> have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?


It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.

> I choose to limit that attachment to plants.


http://www.orthorexia.com

> I hope your poop smells bad...


It smells no worse than yours, twit.
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> buzzgun wrote:
> >>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
> >>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?
> >>
> >>So what if it does?

> >
> > Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.

>
> I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the other
> two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.
>
> > So eat my f*ck.

>
> No, thanks.
>
> > If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.

>
> Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your

health?
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
> http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
> http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
> http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
>
> > SO buzz off!

>
> I'm staying right here.
>
> > Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean I
> > have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?

>
> It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
> Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.
>
> > I choose to limit that attachment to plants.

>
> http://www.orthorexia.com
>
> > I hope your poop smells bad...

>
> It smells no worse than yours, twit.


That would be because with the
exception of fish a couple of times
this year, US is a vegan himself.
He hates himself for it. He lives
in Texas, the heart of barbequing
meat country and is tormented
by his choice of foods combined
with his need to fit in and conform.
He thinks veganism is ALWAYS
an eating disorder, which makes
me think that in his case it is one.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/





  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
cricket
 
Posts: n/a
Default

oh, i laughed so hard i cried. if that is true please don't tell me i don't
think that i could take it.


"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > buzzgun wrote:
> > >>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
> > >>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain

honey?
> > >>
> > >>So what if it does?
> > >
> > > Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.

> >
> > I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the other
> > two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.
> >
> > > So eat my f*ck.

> >
> > No, thanks.
> >
> > > If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.

> >
> > Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your

> health?
> >
> > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
> > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
> > http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
> > http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
> >
> > > SO buzz off!

> >
> > I'm staying right here.
> >
> > > Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean

I
> > > have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?

> >
> > It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
> > Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.
> >
> > > I choose to limit that attachment to plants.

> >
> > http://www.orthorexia.com
> >
> > > I hope your poop smells bad...

> >
> > It smells no worse than yours, twit.

>
> That would be because with the
> exception of fish a couple of times
> this year, US is a vegan himself.
> He hates himself for it. He lives
> in Texas, the heart of barbequing
> meat country and is tormented
> by his choice of foods combined
> with his need to fit in and conform.
> He thinks veganism is ALWAYS
> an eating disorder, which makes
> me think that in his case it is one.
>
>
> --
> SN
> http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
>
>
>



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
> Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.


I will look at orthorexia. There are other types of knowing (reality
testing) that I think are best conveyed face to face. For your my
part, killing more complex organisms is a zero-sum game. Like any
game, mastery requires discipline or instinctual freedom. The current
food-supply system in my metropolitan area of Georgia (U.S.) is
alienating, constricting, over-advertised (thus deceptive), and a major
cause of obesity (an unpleasant condition to deal with in others,
regardless of how much personal empathy I can muster on the spot). I
also think that it represents exploitation, along the lines of, say, a
hunter who finally gives up rifle-hunting because it just isn't fair to
the animal. Well, there are enough reasons to live the way I do. Its
not perfect and I appreciate the chance to defend it. I say defend,
because although I was asking for simple information, I believe in
dialogue, not monologue. I won't forget that you enjoy baiting your
responses however, so just don't expect to always catch me in the most
helpful of moods. Still, this is an educational (read political)
experience on the net and I enjoy it.

As to our respective sarcastic challenges, they too deserve a face to
face context, so instead I offer my friendship, as much as is possible
over the net.
-buzz, still here too.

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply
>> pathetic ones.
>> Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.

>
> I will look at orthorexia. There are other types of knowing
> (reality
> testing) that I think are best conveyed face to face. For your
> my
> part, killing more complex organisms is a zero-sum game.

==========================
Really? Then why do YOU rely on the deaths of millions upon
millions of animals for your food, killer?


Like any
> game, mastery requires discipline or instinctual freedom. The
> current
> food-supply system in my metropolitan area of Georgia (U.S.) is
> alienating, constricting, over-advertised (thus deceptive), and
> a major
> cause of obesity (an unpleasant condition to deal with in
> others,
> regardless of how much personal empathy I can muster on the
> spot). I
> also think that it represents exploitation, along the lines of,
> say, a
> hunter who finally gives up rifle-hunting because it just isn't
> fair to
> the animal. Well, there are enough reasons to live the way I
> do.

=========================
Name a few, killer.


Its
> not perfect and I appreciate the chance to defend it. I say
> defend,
> because although I was asking for simple information, I believe
> in
> dialogue, not monologue. I won't forget that you enjoy baiting
> your
> responses however, so just don't expect to always catch me in
> the most
> helpful of moods. Still, this is an educational (read
> political)
> experience on the net and I enjoy it.
>
> As to our respective sarcastic challenges, they too deserve a
> face to
> face context, so instead I offer my friendship, as much as is
> possible
> over the net.

==================
Then learn from others besides vegan propaganda sites. Your
being here on usenet proves that the unnecessary death and
suffering of animals is of no concern to you, hypocrite.


> -buzz, still here too.
>



  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(snip)
Then why do YOU rely on the deaths of millions upon
> millions of animals for your food, killer?

I see your point. Even purchasing grain is antithetical, as it
perpetuates the cycle of starvation and malnutrition (people can't
afford meat, which is raised on whole grains (itself a 'refined'
vegetable that is not a natural product of evolution), which is the
cheapest way to feed a population during WAR, which is conducted for
secure access to oil-rich regions, which results in the expropriation
of capital from underdeveloped countries, which in some cases means
clearing rain-forests to develope access points to fossil fuel
deposits, which means the land is now ready for raising livestock,
which is harder on the land and worse for our CO2 feedback system on
the planet, which gets me all choked up.

Well, there are enough reasons to live the way I
> > do.

> =========================
> Name a few, killer.


I'm in college. What's your point?

> ==================
> Then learn from others besides vegan propaganda sites. Your
> being here on usenet proves that the unnecessary death and
> suffering of animals is of no concern to you, hypocrite.


What propaganda sites? So we're both on usenet. So at some level we
agree that we have a responsibility to our fellow man and to our fellow
living organisms on the planet as a result of the wealth and power at
our disposal? I refuse to reply to a taunt on the objective suffering
of animals. I believe the conspiracy of silence does a better job than
your little one-liner.

-buzz-

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> (snip)
> Then why do YOU rely on the deaths of millions upon
>> millions of animals for your food, killer?

> I see your point. Even purchasing grain is antithetical, as
> it
> perpetuates the cycle of starvation and malnutrition (people
> can't
> afford meat, which is raised on whole grains

===================
There is no requirement to feed grains to food animals. There is
no requirement to eat meats that are fed with grains.


(itself a 'refined'
> vegetable that is not a natural product of evolution), which is
> the
> cheapest way to feed a population during WAR, which is
> conducted for
> secure access to oil-rich regions, which results in the
> expropriation
> of capital from underdeveloped countries, which in some cases
> means
> clearing rain-forests to develope access points to fossil fuel
> deposits, which means the land is now ready for raising
> livestock,
> which is harder on the land and worse for our CO2 feedback
> system on
> the planet, which gets me all choked up.

=========================
What a bunch of hooey!


>
> Well, there are enough reasons to live the way I
>> > do.

>> =========================
>> Name a few, killer.

>
> I'm in college. What's your point?

=======================
Dodge. What way do you live and why?


>
>> ==================
>> Then learn from others besides vegan propaganda sites. Your
>> being here on usenet proves that the unnecessary death and
>> suffering of animals is of no concern to you, hypocrite.

>
> What propaganda sites?

=================
Read your spew above, it's full of propaganda site crap...


So we're both on usenet. So at some level we
> agree that we have a responsibility to our fellow man and to
> our fellow
> living organisms on the planet as a result of the wealth and
> power at
> our disposal?

===============
Yet you pick some feel good stuff that does absolutly nothing in
regards to your claims of caring about animals. Being vegan does
absolutly nothing to save any number of animals. Being vegan is
just an excuse to focus on what you think others are doing so
that you can ignore your own bloody footprints.


I refuse to reply to a taunt on the objective suffering
> of animals. I believe the conspiracy of silence does a better
> job than
> your little one-liner.

===================
Dodge. You claim to care about animals, yet prove otherwise.
There is no 'one-liner' except that you claim to somehow 'care.'


>
> -buzz-
>





  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default

rick wrote:

> There is no requirement to feed grains to food animals. There is
> no requirement to eat meats that are fed with grains.


No. But it defines the majority of meat available to Americans.

(snip)> =========================
> What a bunch of hooey!


Agreed. And much more more. If you extract the essence of what I
think, however, there is a measure of truth in understanding how others
go about the business of life.

(snip)> =======================
> Dodge. What way do you live and why?


I subsist almost entirely (except when I dumpster dive or accept the
generosity of others) on a cash-based system of exchange. As a college
student, I do not have a sustainable source of income. I feel that I
live this way because of the need to grow to the limits of my capacity
to become what I potentially am. I become my fullest possible self, in
an ego-transcending form, in this life, by examining my consumption
choices, which allow this work to continue. Each choice exists on a
spectrum in terms of its detrimental impact on the biotic community of
this planet. If I take these choices and add them up at the end of
each day or each week, I can clearly define a lesser impact than if I
consumed (granting that using electricity and purchasing other
essentials does indeed place me within a system that harms living
beings) animal products to produce the energy I need for daily
activities. Does the above caveat mean I should say "f*ck it all, I'll
just eat whatever everyone else is eating"? No. My experience has
proven to me that in each instance, I do indeed have the opportunity to
focus on others', perhaps as you said to disregard my own bloody
footprints. Isn't that ego-transcension? Whatever it is, does it
matter? I believe it will lead to a transition, in this lifetime, to a
more ecologically sustainable, natural, and healthier, way of living.

(snip) > What propaganda sites?
> =================
> Read your spew above, it's full of propaganda site crap...


The cup is full.. I reply elsewhere to wherever this jibe is trying to
lead me.

(snip) ===============
> Yet you pick some feel good stuff that does absolutly nothing in
> regards to your claims of caring about animals. Being vegan does
> absolutly nothing to save any number of animals. Being vegan is
> just an excuse to focus on what you think others are doing so
> that you can ignore your own bloody footprints.


I respond to this above. To simplify it though, I ask you to offer a
different paradigm than a zero-sum game. Although I have considered
that agricultural methods kill animals, there are organic methods that
attempt to learn the least harmful ways of subsistence from the natural
resources of this planet. I am humbled, thank you sir, by the fact
that I live within a civilized society. Living as a member of a group,
I accept the fact that we place our needs above the needs of living
beings that suffer as a result of our desire to create a vast surplus
of nutrients and other products, so that we may have time and resources
for recreation and leisure. I've looked at Buddhism, paganism, and
utopian community projects. Perhaps it is annoying and jaded to search
for the most cruelty-free products available. You and I can agree on
that. For me, it demonstrates to me my submission to a life that is
not filled with teaching and hands-on learning about how to provide the
essentials of life. There is no guru or cadre that I meet with
everyday to plan out where and how my essential needs are going to be
met. But instead of playing video games or engaging in countless other
mindless activities that define American culture (that includes dietary
culture), I am vegan.

> I refuse to reply to a taunt on the objective suffering
> > of animals. I believe the conspiracy of silence does a better
> > job than
> > your little one-liner.

> ===================
> Dodge. You claim to care about animals, yet prove otherwise.
> There is no 'one-liner' except that you claim to somehow 'care.'


Fine, I don't care. I rarely use that in my decision calculus anyway.
I now ask you, do you eat animal products? Why or why not?

still buzzing,
buzz

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> rick wrote:
>
>> There is no requirement to feed grains to food animals. There
>> is
>> no requirement to eat meats that are fed with grains.

>
> No. But it defines the majority of meat available to
> Americans.
> ======================

So what? By far the vast majority of veggies is factory-farmed,
intensive, mono-culture production crops that kill far more
animals than get killed for the meat I eat.



> (snip)> =========================
>> What a bunch of hooey!

>
> Agreed. And much more more. If you extract the essence of
> what I
> think, however, there is a measure of truth in understanding
> how others
> go about the business of life.

============
Sure, for vegans it's all about hypocrisy.


>
> (snip)> =======================
>> Dodge. What way do you live and why?

>
> I subsist almost entirely (except when I dumpster dive or
> accept the
> generosity of others) on a cash-based system of exchange. As a
> college
> student, I do not have a sustainable source of income. I feel
> that I
> live this way because of the need to grow to the limits of my
> capacity
> to become what I potentially am. I become my fullest possible
> self, in
> an ego-transcending form, in this life, by examining my
> consumption
> choices, which allow this work to continue. Each choice exists
> on a
> spectrum in terms of its detrimental impact on the biotic
> community of
> this planet. If I take these choices and add them up at the
> end of
> each day or each week, I can clearly define a lesser impact
> than if I
> consumed (granting that using electricity and purchasing other
> essentials does indeed place me within a system that harms
> living
> beings) animal products to produce the energy I need for daily
> activities. Does the above caveat mean I should say "f*ck it
> all, I'll
> just eat whatever everyone else is eating"? No. My experience
> has
> proven to me that in each instance, I do indeed have the
> opportunity to
> focus on others', perhaps as you said to disregard my own
> bloody
> footprints. Isn't that ego-transcension? Whatever it is, does
> it
> matter? I believe it will lead to a transition, in this
> lifetime, to a
> more ecologically sustainable, natural, and healthier, way of
> living.

===========================
And being vegan does not automatically achieve that goal. That's
the typical delusion that they have.

>
> (snip) > What propaganda sites?
>> =================
>> Read your spew above, it's full of propaganda site crap...

>
> The cup is full.. I reply elsewhere to wherever this jibe is
> trying to
> lead me.
>
> (snip) ===============
>> Yet you pick some feel good stuff that does absolutly nothing
>> in
>> regards to your claims of caring about animals. Being vegan
>> does
>> absolutly nothing to save any number of animals. Being vegan
>> is
>> just an excuse to focus on what you think others are doing so
>> that you can ignore your own bloody footprints.

>
> I respond to this above. To simplify it though, I ask you to
> offer a
> different paradigm than a zero-sum game. Although I have
> considered
> that agricultural methods kill animals, there are organic
> methods that
> attempt to learn the least harmful ways of subsistence from the
> natural
> resources of this planet.

=====================
I suggest you learn what organic really is. It's a marketing
tool to get rubes to pay twice as much for the same products.
It's still based on an intensive use of petro-chemical inputs,
and still uses toxic pesticides. In some cases those "safe"
pesticides are more toxic than the synthetic ones. They require
more product, applied more often. All done with machines. Each
pass through a field with these machines kills animals.


I am humbled, thank you sir, by the fact
> that I live within a civilized society. Living as a member of
> a group,
> I accept the fact that we place our needs above the needs of
> living
> beings that suffer as a result of our desire to create a vast
> surplus
> of nutrients and other products, so that we may have time and
> resources
> for recreation and leisure.

==================
There are choices you can make that reduce that suffering.
Veganism doesn't automatically achieve that reduction.


I've looked at Buddhism, paganism, and
> utopian community projects.

====================
And decided on the religion of veganism? make no mistake,
veganism is a religion, it is NOT a diet.


Perhaps it is annoying and jaded to search
> for the most cruelty-free products available. You and I can
> agree on
> that.

===================
Umm, maybe not. Because I say that the most cruelty free foods
available are meats. You just have to buy the right ones.



For me, it demonstrates to me my submission to a life that is
> not filled with teaching and hands-on learning about how to
> provide the
> essentials of life. There is no guru or cadre that I meet with
> everyday to plan out where and how my essential needs are going
> to be
> met. But instead of playing video games or engaging in
> countless other
> mindless activities that define American culture (that includes
> dietary
> culture), I am vegan.

====================
Which does absolutely nothing to automatically alleviate any
death and suffering of animals.


>
>> I refuse to reply to a taunt on the objective suffering
>> > of animals. I believe the conspiracy of silence does a
>> > better
>> > job than
>> > your little one-liner.

>> ===================
>> Dodge. You claim to care about animals, yet prove otherwise.
>> There is no 'one-liner' except that you claim to somehow
>> 'care.'

>
> Fine, I don't care. I rarely use that in my decision calculus
> anyway.
> I now ask you, do you eat animal products? Why or why not?
> ===================

Yes. Because they provide a healthy source of food. A source,
that if chosen correctly will cause far less death and suffering
than the veggies you eat.


> still buzzing,
> buzz
>



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"cricket" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> oh, i laughed so hard i cried. if that is true please don't tell me i

don't
> think that i could take it.


I kid you not. He's a very confused
individual.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > buzzgun wrote:
> > > >>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can

buy
> > > >>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain

> honey?
> > > >>
> > > >>So what if it does?
> > > >
> > > > Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.
> > >
> > > I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the

other
> > > two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.
> > >
> > > > So eat my f*ck.
> > >
> > > No, thanks.
> > >
> > > > If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.
> > >
> > > Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your

> > health?
> > >
> > > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
> > > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
> > > http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
> > > http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
> > >
> > > > SO buzz off!
> > >
> > > I'm staying right here.
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that

mean
> I
> > > > have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?
> > >
> > > It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
> > > Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.
> > >
> > > > I choose to limit that attachment to plants.
> > >
> > > http://www.orthorexia.com
> > >
> > > > I hope your poop smells bad...
> > >
> > > It smells no worse than yours, twit.

> >
> > That would be because with the
> > exception of fish a couple of times
> > this year, US is a vegan himself.
> > He hates himself for it. He lives
> > in Texas, the heart of barbequing
> > meat country and is tormented
> > by his choice of foods combined
> > with his need to fit in and conform.
> > He thinks veganism is ALWAYS
> > an eating disorder, which makes
> > me think that in his case it is one.
> >
> >
> > --
> > SN
> > http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
> >
> >
> >

>
>



  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default


rick wrote:
> ======================
> So what? By far the vast majority of veggies is factory-farmed,
> intensive, mono-culture production crops that kill far more
> animals than get killed for the meat I eat.


I eat local produce about 30-40% of the time. You have to provide more
evidence to make this conversation worth having. To my knowledge,
organic techniques, in general, are about 'not hurting' the earth.
There are more intensive methods that actual 'heal' the earth. Factory
farming and mono-culture produces grains and veggies. These can either
be consumed directly or combined, with a resultant loss of caloric
energy (and other erstwhile resources) to produce edible animal flesh.
You have heard of the trophic ladder right? Finally, I believe that
humans are wise to consume flesh on an infrequent basis. Take
Okinawans. They eat very little red meat, dairy, or poultry. They
take fish 3-5 times per week. They have a modern health care system.
They also get the required daily exercise that most people in
underdeveloped nations are forced to engage in just to meet basic needs
(walking, working, etc... They are some of the most long-lived people
on the planet (also Greeks and Cubans, for two more "third world"
examples). If you will elaborate your position I will consider eating
some meats. Otherwise, this thread will stagnate.

I believe it will lead to a transition, in this
> > lifetime, to a
> > more ecologically sustainable, natural, and healthier, way of
> > living.

> ===========================
> And being vegan does not automatically achieve that goal. That's
> the typical delusion that they have.


You still refuse to answer the zero-sum paradigm. At best, you are
hinting that some vegan choices cause more harm than non-vegan choices.
Please begin citing specific examples. A far as pesticides that
require more spraying and use machines, I have read about that. While
spraying is regrettable in some cases, I imagine, the machines needed
to pack, transport, and store meat produces consume vast quantities of
energy compared to plant products. What do you say to that?

(snip)
> =====================
> I suggest you learn what organic really is. It's a marketing
> tool to get rubes to pay twice as much for the same products.
> It's still based on an intensive use of petro-chemical inputs,
> and still uses toxic pesticides. In some cases those "safe"
> pesticides are more toxic than the synthetic ones. They require
> more product, applied more often. All done with machines. Each
> pass through a field with these machines kills animals.


So you say that the human 'will' applied to accomplishing a vegetarian
diet (resulting in the death of animals who get in the way) is on par
with the murderous 'will' applied to the slaughter of animal beings for
direct consumption?


(snip)> ==================
> There are choices you can make that reduce that suffering.
> Veganism doesn't automatically achieve that reduction.


Please continue.

> I've looked at Buddhism, paganism, and
> > utopian community projects.

> ====================
> And decided on the religion of veganism? make no mistake,
> veganism is a religion, it is NOT a diet.


Perhaps you have had too many conversations with vegans. However, I
undestand your position, to a point. It begins to take the form of a
rubric or world-view, that much I will agree on. I do wish you would
bring some more levity to the thread. Perhaps asking about honey (my
original intent) does just that. It can be a bit robotic and
brainwashed to just blatently refuse animal products. I have gained
some perspective here, but I need you to describe your own version of
events.

> Perhaps it is annoying and jaded to search
> > for the most cruelty-free products available. You and I can
> > agree on
> > that.

> ===================
> Umm, maybe not. Because I say that the most cruelty free foods
> available are meats. You just have to buy the right ones.


And this is about incense sticks, how? Is it unreasonable to ask that
such non-food products be designed to leave out unnecessary animal
products?

(snip)===================
> Yes. Because they provide a healthy source of food. A source,
> that if chosen correctly will cause far less death and suffering
> than the veggies you eat.



No problem there. I'm posting a nice paper written by a recent
graduate and friend of mine. Cheers,

-buzz-

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> rick wrote:
>> ======================
>> So what? By far the vast majority of veggies is
>> factory-farmed,
>> intensive, mono-culture production crops that kill far more
>> animals than get killed for the meat I eat.

>
> I eat local produce about 30-40% of the time.

==================
The meat I eat is all local. So you import 60-70% of your
veggies from around the world? More reliance on the
petro-chemical industry.


You have to provide more
> evidence to make this conversation worth having.

=-======================
See below. I suggest you have not even tried to research your
basis for veganism. You're found a feel-good religion and are
consumed with 'faith' in its so-called ethics.


To my knowledge,
> organic techniques, in general, are about 'not hurting' the
> earth.

=========================
No, they're about soaking the rubes for as much money as
possible. There are NO mono-culture crop production techniques
that are not destructive to the original environment. All crop
production is habitat destruction.


> There are more intensive methods that actual 'heal' the earth.
> Factory
> farming and mono-culture produces grains and veggies. These
> can either
> be consumed directly or combined, with a resultant loss of
> caloric
> energy (and other erstwhile resources) to produce edible animal
> flesh.
> You have heard of the trophic ladder right? Finally, I believe
> that
> humans are wise to consume flesh on an infrequent basis.

=======================
Why? Because you say so? I say just eat the right kinds,
produced the way nature intended. You do also realize that this
fiction that vegans call a 'typical american diet' includes more
than twice as much fruit and veggies as meat, don't you?


Take
> Okinawans. They eat very little red meat, dairy, or poultry.

=============================
So, they are also not vegans, are they? Why do you falsely take
the step that if little meat is good that no meat is better?


They
> take fish 3-5 times per week.

=--=================
Research beef grown the way it was intended. You'll find the
same omega fat ratios in it as fish.


They have a modern health care system.
> They also get the required daily exercise that most people in
> underdeveloped nations are forced to engage in just to meet
> basic needs
> (walking, working, etc... They are some of the most long-lived
> people
> on the planet (also Greeks and Cubans, for two more "third
> world"
> examples). If you will elaborate your position I will consider
> eating
> some meats. Otherwise, this thread will stagnate.

==========================
You just proved yourself that eating some meat is good, fool.
The groups of longest lived peoples of the world are not
vegans.


>
> I believe it will lead to a transition, in this
>> > lifetime, to a
>> > more ecologically sustainable, natural, and healthier, way
>> > of
>> > living.

>> ===========================
>> And being vegan does not automatically achieve that goal.
>> That's
>> the typical delusion that they have.

>
> You still refuse to answer the zero-sum paradigm. At best, you
> are
> hinting that some vegan choices cause more harm than non-vegan
> choices.

======================
Quite so.


> Please begin citing specific examples.

==========================
OK rice, bananas, tofu. Any highly processed or imported foods.
I get 100s of 1000s of calories from the death of one cow. One
grass-fed, local raised and slaughtered. How many animals do you
figure die for 1 pound of tofu fake meat? 10? 100? 1000? more?



A far as pesticides that
> require more spraying and use machines, I have read about that.

===========================
Then read some more, with your eyes open this time.


While
> spraying is regrettable in some cases, I imagine, the machines
> needed
> to pack, transport, and store meat produces consume vast
> quantities of
> energy compared to plant products. What do you say to that?

====================
I say you're wrong. Meat is not typically shipped like veggies
are. In my case, the beef is raised just down the road and
slaughtered less than 5-6 miles away. Meats are not nearly as
processed as veggies are. How much man-made energy do you figure
it takes to make a pound of tofu? I can get 100s of pounds of
beef from practically none.



>
> (snip)
>> =====================
>> I suggest you learn what organic really is. It's a marketing
>> tool to get rubes to pay twice as much for the same products.
>> It's still based on an intensive use of petro-chemical inputs,
>> and still uses toxic pesticides. In some cases those "safe"
>> pesticides are more toxic than the synthetic ones. They
>> require
>> more product, applied more often. All done with machines.
>> Each
>> pass through a field with these machines kills animals.

>
> So you say that the human 'will' applied to accomplishing a
> vegetarian
> diet (resulting in the death of animals who get in the way) is
> on par
> with the murderous 'will' applied to the slaughter of animal
> beings for
> direct consumption?

=======================
Yes, especially when the numbers killed for your veggies are far
more than the numbers killed for the meat I eat. Why is they
virtue in killing and leaving the animals to rot, and in killing
and eating them. The ones I kill for meat die a far more humane
death than the ones that die in your crop production.



>
>
> (snip)> ==================
>> There are choices you can make that reduce that suffering.
>> Veganism doesn't automatically achieve that reduction.

>
> Please continue.

=======================
Why do I have to do the research for you? As a typical vegan,
you have latched onto a feel-good, do-nothing religion and taken
all the concepts on faith. Why have you not researched the idea
that some veggies cause more death and suffering to animals than
others? But again, try rice, bananas, tofu, exotic fruits and
spices, etc. Anything that you have to highly process or import
from around the world is far less a better option the local
grass-fed beef and game. Why is that so hard for vegans to
understand?




>
>> I've looked at Buddhism, paganism, and
>> > utopian community projects.

>> ====================
>> And decided on the religion of veganism? make no mistake,
>> veganism is a religion, it is NOT a diet.

>
> Perhaps you have had too many conversations with vegans.
> However, I
> undestand your position, to a point. It begins to take the
> form of a
> rubric or world-view, that much I will agree on. I do wish you
> would
> bring some more levity to the thread. Perhaps asking about
> honey (my
> original intent) does just that. It can be a bit robotic and
> brainwashed to just blatently refuse animal products. I have
> gained
> some perspective here, but I need you to describe your own
> version of
> events.

================
What events? Another vegan refusal to see the truth? There are
NO vegans on usenet. That's my real version.


>
>> Perhaps it is annoying and jaded to search
>> > for the most cruelty-free products available. You and I can
>> > agree on
>> > that.

>> ===================
>> Umm, maybe not. Because I say that the most cruelty free
>> foods
>> available are meats. You just have to buy the right ones.

>
> And this is about incense sticks, how? Is it unreasonable to
> ask that
> such non-food products be designed to leave out unnecessary
> animal
> products?

===================
And as was mentioned to you, why care about what minute particles
may be in an incense stick while you're here on usenet
contributing to the death and suffering of more animals than
bees? This preoccupation with bits and pieces while ignoring the
blood on your hands is a typical vegan trait.



>
> (snip)===================
>> Yes. Because they provide a healthy source of food. A
>> source,
>> that if chosen correctly will cause far less death and
>> suffering
>> than the veggies you eat.

>
>
> No problem there. I'm posting a nice paper written by a recent
> graduate and friend of mine. Cheers,
>
> -buzz-
>




Organic production is still done as a machine intensive
technique. It still uses chemicals, sometimes more than that of
conventional farming, requiring many more passes of machines thru
the fields.
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html

And, an extra, just because it's 'organic' doesn't make it safe.
Special potatoes and celery were bred to increase their
resistance
pest, and create one where pesticides were not needed. The
results
were good, as to not needing extra pesticides, however....

"...Breeding methods and other "substitutes" used as
alternatives to pesticide chemicals can expose consumers to
greater risks. This is a recognized problem particularly in
cases where farmers breed plants to become more
insect-resistant, a "natural" substitute to using synthetic
pesticides. In one particular case, breeders grew a special
type of highly insect-resistant celery to avoid using
pesticides. It wasn't until after the people handling the
celery developed a serious rash that it was discovered the
special celery contained 6,200 parts per billion of
carcinogenic psoralens, a natural chemical that heightens
sensitivity to the sun's rays; conventionally grown celery
protected with synthetic pesticides contains approximately
800 parts per billion. The same occurred when scientists
bred a "pest-free" potato. The breeders found that the
potato "was so full of natural pesticides that it was acutely
poisonous to humans." By using synthetic pesticides, therefore,
farmers and food producers often are indirectly protecting
consumers from potential risks from natural pesticides which
scientists have found can be carcinogenic..."
http://www.consumeralert.org/pubs/research/CRFeb00.htm




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Skanky Carpetmuncher wrote:
>>>>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
>>>>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain honey?
>>>>
>>>>So what if it does?
>>>
>>> Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.

>>
>>I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the other
>>two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.
>>
>>
>>>So eat my f*ck.

>>
>>No, thanks.
>>
>>
>>>If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.

>>
>>Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your

>
> health?
>
>>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
>>http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
>>http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
>>http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
>>
>>
>>>SO buzz off!

>>
>>I'm staying right here.
>>
>>
>>>Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean I
>>>have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?

>>
>>It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
>>Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.
>>
>>
>>>I choose to limit that attachment to plants.

>>
>>http://www.orthorexia.com
>>
>>
>>>I hope your poop smells bad...

>>
>>It smells no worse than yours, twit.

>
>
> That would be because with the
> exception of fish a couple of times
> this year, US is a vegan himself.


I am not a vegan. Veganism is based on animal rights. I don't subscribe
to that philosophy. I believe animals should be afforded protections
under the law, consistent with the animal welfare position. My diet is
predominantly vegetarian, and even strictly so when I cook for myself.

> He hates himself for it.


You're wrong.

> He lives in Texas,


Which, of course, has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

> the heart of barbequing
> meat country and is tormented
> by his choice of foods combined
> with his need to fit in and conform.


Non sequiturs and utter lies. Austin is quite unlike any stereotype or
caricature you've developed in your feeble mind (braincell) about Texas.
If you think I have such a need to fit in and conform with those who
dine on BBQ, why have I recommended veg-n restaurants in this newsgroup?

http://tinyurl.com/7hbxf
http://tinyurl.com/aroqr
http://tinyurl.com/8kqk8

You're 180-degrees off, Skanky. As usual.

> He thinks veganism is ALWAYS
> an eating disorder,


And it is, as explained previously.
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
.. .
> Skanky Carpetmuncher wrote:


Fear of *******s I see. Probably
from so many women telling you
that if you were the last man on
earth they'd turn to women.

> >>>>>Thanks for reading. I have a nonfood question (okay, but you can buy
> >>>>>incense in most natural foods stores). Does Nag Champa contain

honey?
> >>>>
> >>>>So what if it does?
> >>>
> >>> Contradiction is no reason to be foul, f*ckface.
> >>
> >>I asked, "So what if it does?" That's not being foul. Nor are the other
> >>two questions I asked you, girlie-boy.
> >>
> >>
> >>>So eat my f*ck.
> >>
> >>No, thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >>>If it CAN be done without harming bees, thats my business.
> >>
> >>Why do you care more about ****ing bees than your own lungs or your

> >
> > health?
> >
> >>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1100
> >>http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html
> >>http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html
> >>http://tinyurl.com/7gvo4
> >>
> >>
> >>>SO buzz off!
> >>
> >>I'm staying right here.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Thanks for the link. If I choose to dance with death, does that mean I
> >>>have to develop issues with other animals, insects, etc..?
> >>
> >>It sounds like you've already developed issues, deeply pathetic ones.
> >>Pity you haven't dealt with them yet.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I choose to limit that attachment to plants.
> >>
> >>http://www.orthorexia.com
> >>
> >>
> >>>I hope your poop smells bad...
> >>
> >>It smells no worse than yours, twit.

> >
> >
> > That would be because with the
> > exception of fish a couple of times
> > this year, US is a vegan himself.

>
> I am not a vegan. Veganism is based on animal rights. I don't subscribe
> to that philosophy. I believe animals should be afforded protections
> under the law, consistent with the animal welfare position. My diet is
> predominantly vegetarian, and even strictly so when I cook for myself.
>
> > He hates himself for it.

>
> You're wrong.


I'm right and you know it.

> > He lives in Texas,

>
> Which, of course, has nothing to do with the issue at hand.


It's part and parcel of your fears.

> > the heart of barbequing
> > meat country and is tormented
> > by his choice of foods combined
> > with his need to fit in and conform.

>
> Non sequiturs and utter lies. Austin is quite unlike any stereotype or
> caricature you've developed in your feeble mind (braincell) about Texas.
> If you think I have such a need to fit in and conform with those who
> dine on BBQ, why have I recommended veg-n restaurants in this newsgroup?


Because you are confused and
tormented by your oil and water
mix of views.

> http://tinyurl.com/7hbxf
> http://tinyurl.com/aroqr
> http://tinyurl.com/8kqk8
>
> You're 180-degrees off, Skanky. As usual.
>
> > He thinks veganism is ALWAYS
> > an eating disorder,

>
> And it is, as explained previously.


Only in your case, sicko



SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/



  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Skanky wrote:
>>oh, i laughed so hard i cried. if that is true please don't tell me i
>>don't think that i could take it.

>
> I kid you not.


Liar. You're full of shit.

> He's a very confused
> individual.


So says the arrested-development ditz whose moral confusion has led her
to go from saying "killing animals is wrong" to "killing animals is
mostly wrong" in her futile bid at self-justification.
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am researching your links. A nice article turned you can add to your
list. Many of your links are broken, or lead to articles 10 years old.
Not picking on your research skills, the info is quite solid. He
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/En...g_America.html

I am looking into macrobiotic, sustainable agriculture solutions in my
area.

I'll be back for more,
-0buzz-1

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am researching your links. A nice article turned you can add
>to your
> list. Many of your links are broken, or lead to articles 10
> years old.
> Not picking on your research skills, the info is quite solid.
> He
> http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/En...g_America.html
> ================

Not much usefullness there...



> I am looking into macrobiotic, sustainable agriculture
> solutions in my
> area.

======================
And to re-use the phrase that vegans use about grass-fed beef and
game, you can't feed the world on those ideas. Local, in-season
foods are not going to sustain the world. Heck, it probably
wouldn't even be feasable for much of the US and Canada.
Besides, the vegans here on usenet are all about convenience and
focusing only on what they think others are doing. They do
nothing to check their own bloody footprints. They, like you
apparently, have NEVER even looked into the possibility that
differenet veggies have different costs in terms of animal deaths
and environmental damage. They've been too busy ranting about
others, so that thay CAN ignore their own actions.


>
> I'll be back for more,

================
Anytime...


> -0buzz-1
>





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am researching your links. A nice article turned you can add
>to your
> list. Many of your links are broken, or lead to articles 10
> years old.
> Not picking on your research skills, the info is quite solid.
> He
> http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/En...g_America.html
> ==================

btw, you complain about some of my links being 10 years old, yet
yours starts out with a book from 1962 using data from 1947 to
1960. However, farming is still farming. It relies on
mechanization and petro-chemical operations. Both of which kill
animals and destroys habitat. 2 things you will never get away
from if you are eating crop foods.


next, let's look at your site data.
"...Each year, over 100 million pounds of highly toxic active
ingredients from pesticides are released into the environment in
California alone...."

The top listed pesticides used are organic ones. According to
most vegans here on usenet, these somehow aren't toxic.
Sulfur, oils, methyl bromide, metam sodium
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/dprdocs/puranal.htm
oh, and the data is 10 years old...


> I am looking into macrobiotic, sustainable agriculture
> solutions in my
> area.
>
> I'll be back for more,
> -0buzz-1
>



  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
buzzgun
 
Posts: n/a
Default


rick wrote:
==================
> btw, you complain about some of my links being 10 years old, yet
> yours starts out with a book from 1962 using data from 1947 to
> 1960. However, farming is still farming. It relies on
> mechanization and petro-chemical operations. Both of which kill
> animals and destroys habitat. 2 things you will never get away
> from if you are eating crop foods.


That may be. I think what we are potentially after is a common
baseline. At some ideal point, lifestyles could include macrobiotic
solutions (canned goods, including meat). However, carbon neutral
solutions seem to have some merit. And what if there is no local meat
available? Isn't that the condition of millions of
metropolis-dwellers? I think that crop-rotation, diversified
agriculture, and natural suppression of pests is possible. In my area,
it is probably decades away from reality. I think I can limit my
consumption of food to a reasonable level, learn from/aid local
farmers, and keep my hatred of machines to a minimum. After all, I
think that industrialization is a good thing. The article I cited
refers to the unparalleled rise in productivity of American
agricultural PRIOR to the postwar boom in pesticide use/production. It
also mentions the problem that small farmers face in the competitive
marketplace. I speculate that your jibing 'rubes' for buying organic
only goes so far. There is alot of health reasons to buy organic,
according to people I have 'spoken' to. I will read further on that.

Just to be superfluous, I attended ONE meeting of animal
rights/vegan-vegetarians at my school this past year. They showed
clips of factory farming, rescued animals, and some tear-jerking
cow-hugging. To be honest, I don't react to animal suffering on film
negatively. To me, it is funny, because it is absurd. I suppose, on
further introspection, I could laugh if a mouse or vole was crushed
under a tractor wheel or a combine-track. I sometimes wish I was
completely benevolent. I'm not. I have not claimed to be. Yet, I
find this discussion very calming to my ego. I find the militant,
Hun-attitude to be a waste of energy. I realize my concern for bees is
superfluous as it stands.

regards,
-buzz-

  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"buzzgun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> rick wrote:
> ==================
>> btw, you complain about some of my links being 10 years old,
>> yet
>> yours starts out with a book from 1962 using data from 1947 to
>> 1960. However, farming is still farming. It relies on
>> mechanization and petro-chemical operations. Both of which
>> kill
>> animals and destroys habitat. 2 things you will never get
>> away
>> from if you are eating crop foods.

>
> That may be. I think what we are potentially after is a common
> baseline. At some ideal point, lifestyles could include
> macrobiotic
> solutions (canned goods, including meat). However, carbon
> neutral
> solutions seem to have some merit. And what if there is no
> local meat
> available? Isn't that the condition of millions of
> metropolis-dwellers?

======================
LOL Like there ARE local crops available in metropolitan areas?
Meat is no more scarce than veggies.


I think that crop-rotation, diversified
> agriculture, and natural suppression of pests is possible.

=======================
On a small scale, sure. But, you won't feed the world the way we
do now.


In my area,
> it is probably decades away from reality. I think I can limit
> my
> consumption of food to a reasonable level, learn from/aid local
> farmers, and keep my hatred of machines to a minimum. After
> all, I
> think that industrialization is a good thing. The article I
> cited
> refers to the unparalleled rise in productivity of American
> agricultural PRIOR to the postwar boom in pesticide
> use/production. It
> also mentions the problem that small farmers face in the
> competitive
> marketplace. I speculate that your jibing 'rubes' for buying
> organic
> only goes so far. There is alot of health reasons to buy
> organic,
> according to people I have 'spoken' to.

=========================
Then they are trying to 'sell' you something. Organic produce is
in reality no different from regular produce in nutrition.
Again, organic does not mean pesticide-free, cruelty-free, or
death-free agriculture.


I will read further on that.
>
> Just to be superfluous, I attended ONE meeting of animal
> rights/vegan-vegetarians at my school this past year. They
> showed
> clips of factory farming, rescued animals, and some
> tear-jerking
> cow-hugging. To be honest, I don't react to animal suffering
> on film
> negatively. To me, it is funny, because it is absurd. I
> suppose, on
> further introspection, I could laugh if a mouse or vole was
> crushed
> under a tractor wheel or a combine-track. I sometimes wish I
> was
> completely benevolent. I'm not. I have not claimed to be.
> Yet, I
> find this discussion very calming to my ego. I find the
> militant,
> Hun-attitude to be a waste of energy. I realize my concern for
> bees is
> superfluous as it stands.
>
> regards,
> -buzz-
>



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