Dutch wrote:
>>>You have a legal and political right
>>>to smugly self-satisified, but not the moral and
>>>intellectual right to it.
>>
>>Yes I do.
>
> Touché! You must spend hours formulating
> these clever responses.

Now you know what she does in all that time she spends in a drugged-up
stupor.

Scented Nectar wrote:
>>When one announces that they are a
>>vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>>the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>>You did it yourself. And you whine
>>incessantly about being insulted. Have
>>any of us called you a murderer? The
>>worst we do is call you a dope.
>
> You've all called me a lot
> worse than that.

Only because you ARE worse than that.

"Scented Nectar" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote
[..]

>> > If I
>> > announce that I am atheist, am
>> > I conveying insults to religious
>> > people?
>>
>> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
>
> Maybe.

No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.

> If they are doing
> something like a crusade,
> maybe. There are many
> episodes throughout history
> where one religion kills
> people who are not members.

Like Al Qaeda..

Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
people murderers, they are murdering people.

Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
murder, we all do it.

The essential point here is that vegans take an
innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
and offensive characterizations of anyone who
does not follow the same prescription for morality.
Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
and revile non-believers the better they feel about
themselves.

You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
is this person who authored this disgusting black
web page?
http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
she judge me? How dare you?

>> When one announces that they are a
>> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>> You did it yourself. And you whine
>> incessantly about being insulted. Have
>> any of us called you a murderer? The
>> worst we do is call you a dope.
>
> You've all called me a lot
> worse than that.

I have never implied that you were a murderer,
none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
effort to see things any other way. Why would
we not be angry with you?

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Scented Nectar wrote:
> >>When one announces that they are a
> >>vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
> >>the characterization "Meat is Murder."
> >>You did it yourself. And you whine
> >>incessantly about being insulted. Have
> >>any of us called you a murderer? The
> >>worst we do is call you a dope.
> >
> > You've all called me a lot
> > worse than that.
>
> Only because you ARE worse than that.

I can only conclude that you
are unable to stop insulting
and are probably like this to
people you know in real life
too.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
news
> Dutch wrote:
> >>>You have a legal and political right
> >>>to smugly self-satisified, but not the moral and
> >>>intellectual right to it.
> >>
> >>Yes I do.
> >
> > Touché! You must spend hours formulating
> > these clever responses.
>
> Now you know what she does in all that time she spends in a drugged-up
> stupor.

When was the last time you
or Dutch drank anything
alcoholic?


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote
> [..]
>
> >> > If I
> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
> >> > I conveying insults to religious
> >> > people?
> >>
> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
> >
> > Maybe.
>
> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
>
> > If they are doing
> > something like a crusade,
> > maybe. There are many
> > episodes throughout history
> > where one religion kills
> > people who are not members.
>
> Like Al Qaeda..
>
> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
> people murderers, they are murdering people.

Yep.

> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
> murder, we all do it.

Some people embrace the killings
whole heartedly, while others are
upset that there are some
unavoidable deaths. The fact
that meat is one of the few
avoidable deaths is what makes
it so much more of a moral
issue than cds.

> The essential point here is that vegans take an
> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
> themselves.

While I feel personally good
about my choices in comparison
to a meat eating diet, I would
never insist that people I know
MUST do it too. Some of my
friends are veg*n and some are
not. So explain how I'm doing
the above.

> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
> is this person who authored this disgusting black
> web page?
> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
> she judge me? How dare you?

You have no logical right to
say I condone ANY website.
Only I can decide that. I've
never even been to those
websites. I've just checked
them out. All opinions on
those sites are obviously
those of the author, not me.
You will hear and have
heard my opinions here on
the newsgroups and MY
own websites where they
belong. All my opinions
come from me, and not from
others unless I 'explicitly'
agree with them. None of
that 'implicitly' stuff.

> >> When one announces that they are a
> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
> >
> > You've all called me a lot
> > worse than that.
>
> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
> effort to see things any other way. Why would
> we not be angry with you?

Read above about implied
stuff. And stop pretending
like you're an injured party.
Waaa waaa waaa... You
and the other anti-s do a lot
more insulting than me. And
worse ones too.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>>When one announces that they are a
>>>>vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>>>>the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>>>>You did it yourself. And you whine
>>>>incessantly about being insulted. Have
>>>>any of us called you a murderer? The
>>>>worst we do is call you a dope.
>>>
>>>You've all called me a lot
>>>worse than that.
>>
>>Only because you ARE worse than that.
>
> I can only conclude

Your conclusions are meritless because you lack substance, integrity,
and character.

Stoned Nectar wrote:
>>>>>You have a legal and political right
>>>>>to smugly self-satisified, but not the moral and
>>>>>intellectual right to it.
>>>>
>>>>Yes I do.
>>>
>>>Touché! You must spend hours formulating
>>>these clever responses.
>>
>>Now you know what she does in all that time she spends in a drugged-up
>>stupor.
>
> When was

You're still in one, aren't you.

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> > "Dutch" > wrote
>> [..]
>>
>> >> > If I
>> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
>> >> > I conveying insults to religious
>> >> > people?
>> >>
>> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
>> >
>> > Maybe.
>>
>> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
>>
>> > If they are doing
>> > something like a crusade,
>> > maybe. There are many
>> > episodes throughout history
>> > where one religion kills
>> > people who are not members.
>>
>> Like Al Qaeda..
>>
>> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
>> people murderers, they are murdering people.
>
> Yep.
>
>> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
>> murder, we all do it.
>
> Some people embrace the killings
> whole heartedly, while others are
> upset that there are some
> unavoidable deaths. The fact
> that meat is one of the few
> avoidable deaths is what makes
> it so much more of a moral
> issue than cds.

I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
grasp it before. Listen carefully.

Every food has deaths associated with it.
You can remove your association with
those deaths by abstaining from consuming
any one of them. Your singling out of meat
in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.

Do you get what I just said?

>> The essential point here is that vegans take an
>> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
>> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
>> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
>> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
>> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
>> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
>> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
>> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
>> themselves.
>
> While I feel personally good
> about my choices in comparison
> to a meat eating diet,

You are committing a fallacy by
lumping together all diets which
include some meat.

What about in comparison to a person who
consumes only hand raised and free range
food, including some meat? If that person
causes much less killing than your lifestyle
do you feel good in comparison to him, or
bad?

> I would
> never insist that people I know
> MUST do it too.

That's because you want to survive
socially. You don't have the courage
of your convictions.

> Some of my
> friends are veg*n and some are
> not.

If you really believed that meat is
murder then you could not tolerate
meat-eating friends. Do you associate
with many murderers?

> So explain how I'm doing
> the above.

You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
to back up your words, like calling your friends
to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
want it all your way. You disgust me.

>> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
>> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
>> is this person who authored this disgusting black
>> web page?
>> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
>> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
>> she judge me? How dare you?
>
> You have no logical right to
> say I condone ANY website.
> Only I can decide that. I've
> never even been to those
> websites. I've just checked
> them out. All opinions on
> those sites are obviously
> those of the author, not me.
> You will hear and have
> heard my opinions here on
> the newsgroups and MY
> own websites where they
> belong. All my opinions
> come from me, and not from
> others unless I 'explicitly'
> agree with them. None of
> that 'implicitly' stuff.

You said "Meat *is* murder."
What could be more explicit
than that?

>> >> When one announces that they are a
>> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
>> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
>> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
>> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
>> >
>> > You've all called me a lot
>> > worse than that.
>>
>> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
>> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
>> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
>> effort to see things any other way. Why would
>> we not be angry with you?
>
> Read above about implied
> stuff.

You said "Meat *is* murder."

I eat meat, therefore

You think I am a murderer.

What other conclusion can I draw?

Do you or don't you think that meat
is murder?

> And stop pretending
> like you're an injured party.

I'm not pretending, I am deeply
offended by your statement that
"Meat *is* murder." You are
condemning me as a monster.

> Waaa waaa waaa... You
> and the other anti-s do a lot
> more insulting than me. And
> worse ones too.

What names have I called you that
compare with murderer?

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dutch" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> >> > "Dutch" > wrote
> >> [..]
> >>
> >> >> > If I
> >> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
> >> >> > I conveying insults to religious
> >> >> > people?
> >> >>
> >> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
> >> >
> >> > Maybe.
> >>
> >> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
> >>
> >> > If they are doing
> >> > something like a crusade,
> >> > maybe. There are many
> >> > episodes throughout history
> >> > where one religion kills
> >> > people who are not members.
> >>
> >> Like Al Qaeda..
> >>
> >> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
> >> people murderers, they are murdering people.
> >
> > Yep.
> >
> >> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
> >> murder, we all do it.
> >
> > Some people embrace the killings
> > whole heartedly, while others are
> > upset that there are some
> > unavoidable deaths. The fact
> > that meat is one of the few
> > avoidable deaths is what makes
> > it so much more of a moral
> > issue than cds.
>
> I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
> grasp it before. Listen carefully.
>
> Every food has deaths associated with it.
> You can remove your association with
> those deaths by abstaining from consuming
> any one of them. Your singling out of meat
> in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.
>
> Do you get what I just said?

Yeah, and I still don't agree.
Meat is the one food where
the death is optional to the
end consumer. Both meat
and plant foods have cds
but meat has that additional
completely optional death.

> >> The essential point here is that vegans take an
> >> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
> >> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
> >> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
> >> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
> >> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
> >> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
> >> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
> >> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
> >> themselves.
> >
> > While I feel personally good
> > about my choices in comparison
> > to a meat eating diet,
>
> You are committing a fallacy by
> lumping together all diets which
> include some meat.
>
> What about in comparison to a person who
> consumes only hand raised and free range
> food, including some meat? If that person
> causes much less killing than your lifestyle
> do you feel good in comparison to him, or
> bad?

I can't answer that because
I don't think it's possible that
they are killing less. That
person is still not growing their
food veganically and they are
still willing to kill animals they
have raised and should feel
some compassion for. They
still have the intent, ability and
motive to kill, whereas even the
city vegans do not.

> > I would
> > never insist that people I know
> > MUST do it too.
>
> That's because you want to survive
> socially. You don't have the courage
> of your convictions.

Nonsense. All my friends know
I'm a vegetarian and fully accept
that. I don't hide it from them.
Unlike here, they don't pick on
me for my ways, so I'm never
needing to debate being veg
with them.

> > Some of my
> > friends are veg*n and some are
> > not.
>
> If you really believed that meat is
> murder then you could not tolerate
> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
> with many murderers?

I can tolerate those meat eaters
that tolerate me. Although I
would love to see everyone
become veg, I realize that what
we are taught to eat when young
sticks with us and it's hard to
change eating patterns. I have
a number of friends who have
said that they would love to be
veg but don't think they could
do it.

> > So explain how I'm doing
> > the above.
>
> You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
> because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
> but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
> to back up your words, like calling your friends
> to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
> want it all your way. You disgust me.

You think I should pick on
my friends for having different
diets than me? If they were to
join a group like these where
the topics were veg, maybe
I'd discuss such things with
them, but if they don't, I'm not
going to go running "it's better
to be veg, you know". "let's
talk about the morals of being
veg". "that isn't chicken you're
eating is it?"

> >> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
> >> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
> >> is this person who authored this disgusting black
> >> web page?
> >> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
> >> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
> >> she judge me? How dare you?
> >
> > You have no logical right to
> > say I condone ANY website.
> > Only I can decide that. I've
> > never even been to those
> > websites. I've just checked
> > them out. All opinions on
> > those sites are obviously
> > those of the author, not me.
> > You will hear and have
> > heard my opinions here on
> > the newsgroups and MY
> > own websites where they
> > belong. All my opinions
> > come from me, and not from
> > others unless I 'explicitly'
> > agree with them. None of
> > that 'implicitly' stuff.
>
> You said "Meat *is* murder."
> What could be more explicit
> than that?

Murder=killing. Killing=murder.
If one considers all forms of
deliberate death to be murder,
then everyone is a murderer.
My body has killed off viruses.
I used to be a meat eater and
killed animals. I have killed
mosquitoes trying to bite me.
How important you rank a
death morally, is another
story. You obviously rank all
humans above all animals.

> >> >> When one announces that they are a
> >> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
> >> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
> >> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
> >> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
> >> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
> >> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
> >> >
> >> > You've all called me a lot
> >> > worse than that.
> >>
> >> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
> >> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
> >> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
> >> effort to see things any other way. Why would
> >> we not be angry with you?
> >
> > Read above about implied
> > stuff.
>
> You said "Meat *is* murder."
>
> I eat meat, therefore
>
> You think I am a murderer.
>
> What other conclusion can I draw?
>
> Do you or don't you think that meat
> is murder?
>
> > And stop pretending
> > like you're an injured party.
>
> I'm not pretending, I am deeply
> offended by your statement that
> "Meat *is* murder." You are
> condemning me as a monster.

If you are deeply offended then
you must place a high ethical
value on the murder of meat
animals. If you truly don't care,
then why would you care what
value I place on it?

> > Waaa waaa waaa... You
> > and the other anti-s do a lot
> > more insulting than me. And
> > worse ones too.
>
> What names have I called you that
> compare with murderer?

I'm not going to dig around in
the archives, but there was even
one occassion at least that you
called me a ****. Usually it's
the others who use that word
so it kind of surprised me, but
sure enough it was you.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

"Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
[..]
>> >> >> > If I
>> >> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
>> >> >> > I conveying insults to religious
>> >> >> > people?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
>> >> >
>> >> > Maybe.
>> >>
>> >> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
>> >>
>> >> > If they are doing
>> >> > something like a crusade,
>> >> > maybe. There are many
>> >> > episodes throughout history
>> >> > where one religion kills
>> >> > people who are not members.
>> >>
>> >> Like Al Qaeda..
>> >>
>> >> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
>> >> people murderers, they are murdering people.
>> >
>> > Yep.
>> >
>> >> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
>> >> murder, we all do it.
>> >
>> > Some people embrace the killings
>> > whole heartedly, while others are
>> > upset that there are some
>> > unavoidable deaths. The fact
>> > that meat is one of the few
>> > avoidable deaths is what makes
>> > it so much more of a moral
>> > issue than cds.
>>
>> I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
>> grasp it before. Listen carefully.
>>
>> Every food has deaths associated with it.
>> You can remove your association with
>> those deaths by abstaining from consuming
>> any one of them. Your singling out of meat
>> in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.
>>
>> Do you get what I just said?
>
> Yeah, and I still don't agree.
> Meat is the one food where
> the death is optional to the
> end consumer. Both meat
> and plant foods have cds
> but meat has that additional
> completely optional death.

The animals don't care how you
categorize them. If you kill them,
they're dead.

>> >> The essential point here is that vegans take an
>> >> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
>> >> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
>> >> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
>> >> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
>> >> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
>> >> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
>> >> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
>> >> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
>> >> themselves.
>> >
>> > While I feel personally good
>> > about my choices in comparison
>> > to a meat eating diet,
>>
>> You are committing a fallacy by
>> lumping together all diets which
>> include some meat.

You commit a lot of fallacies

>> What about in comparison to a person who
>> consumes only hand raised and free range
>> food, including some meat? If that person
>> causes much less killing than your lifestyle
>> do you feel good in comparison to him, or
>> bad?
>
> I can't answer that because
> I don't think it's possible that
> they are killing less.

You're wrong. I have been both people, and
I know that I killed the fewest animals when
all my food came from my own farm.

>That
> person is still not growing their
> food veganically

You don't even know what that word means.

> and they are
> still willing to kill animals they
> have raised and should feel
> some compassion for. They
> still have the intent, ability and
> motive to kill, whereas even the
> city vegans do not.

The city vegans have the luxury of
burying their wooly heads in the sand
pretending that they live cruelty-free
lives, while looking down their noses at
others.

>> > I would
>> > never insist that people I know
>> > MUST do it too.
>>
>> That's because you want to survive
>> socially. You don't have the courage
>> of your convictions.
>
> Nonsense. All my friends know
> I'm a vegetarian and fully accept
> that. I don't hide it from them.
> Unlike here, they don't pick on
> me for my ways, so I'm never
> needing to debate being veg
> with them.

As usual you have it backwards.
If you really believe what you say
about meat being murder you should
not associate with meat-eaters. But
you don't mean what you say, you
never do, you're a flaky stoner who
likes to shoot off her yap.

>> > Some of my
>> > friends are veg*n and some are
>> > not.
>>
>> If you really believed that meat is
>> murder then you could not tolerate
>> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
>> with many murderers?
>
> I can tolerate those meat eaters
> that tolerate me.

Do you have any friends that kill
people?

> Although I
> would love to see everyone
> become veg, I realize that what
> we are taught to eat when young
> sticks with us and it's hard to
> change eating patterns.

No it's not, most people eat meat
by choice, not because it's hard to
change.

> I have
> a number of friends who have
> said that they would love to be
> veg but don't think they could
> do it.

They're probably as flaky as you.

>> > So explain how I'm doing
>> > the above.
>>
>> You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
>> because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
>> but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
>> to back up your words, like calling your friends
>> to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
>> want it all your way. You disgust me.
>
> You think I should pick on
> my friends for having different
> diets than me?

For being MURDERERS!!!

Does that word not mean anything
to you?

> If they were to
> join a group like these where
> the topics were veg, maybe
> I'd discuss such things with
> them, but if they don't, I'm not
> going to go running "it's better
> to be veg, you know". "let's
> talk about the morals of being
> veg". "that isn't chicken you're
> eating is it?"

I know you wouldn't, because vegans
are hypocrites by nature who don't
actually believe what they claim they do.

>> >> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
>> >> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
>> >> is this person who authored this disgusting black
>> >> web page?
>> >> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
>> >> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
>> >> she judge me? How dare you?
>> >
>> > You have no logical right to
>> > say I condone ANY website.
>> > Only I can decide that. I've
>> > never even been to those
>> > websites. I've just checked
>> > them out. All opinions on
>> > those sites are obviously
>> > those of the author, not me.
>> > You will hear and have
>> > heard my opinions here on
>> > the newsgroups and MY
>> > own websites where they
>> > belong. All my opinions
>> > come from me, and not from
>> > others unless I 'explicitly'
>> > agree with them. None of
>> > that 'implicitly' stuff.
>>
>> You said "Meat *is* murder."
>> What could be more explicit
>> than that?
>
> Murder=killing. Killing=murder.

Wrong, murder and killing are not
the same thing.

> If one considers all forms of
> deliberate death to be murder,
> then everyone is a murderer.

That's not what the word murder
means. You can't discuss issues
without understanding the meaning
of the words you use.

> My body has killed off viruses.
> I used to be a meat eater and
> killed animals.

Really? I've never killed an animal.

> I have killed
> mosquitoes trying to bite me.

Self-defence.

> How important you rank a
> death morally, is another
> story. You obviously rank all
> humans above all animals.

So do you. You rank your convenient
lifestyle above the deaths of animals in
commercial farming. If you didn't you'd
be a bigger fool than you actually are.

>> >> >> When one announces that they are a
>> >> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>> >> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>> >> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
>> >> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
>> >> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
>> >> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
>> >> >
>> >> > You've all called me a lot
>> >> > worse than that.
>> >>
>> >> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
>> >> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
>> >> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
>> >> effort to see things any other way. Why would
>> >> we not be angry with you?
>> >
>> > Read above about implied
>> > stuff.
>>
>> You said "Meat *is* murder."
>>
>> I eat meat, therefore
>>
>> You think I am a murderer.
>>
>> What other conclusion can I draw?

Well??
>
>> Do you or don't you think that meat
>> is murder?
>>
>> > And stop pretending
>> > like you're an injured party.
>>
>> I'm not pretending, I am deeply
>> offended by your statement that
>> "Meat *is* murder." You are
>> condemning me as a monster.
>
> If you are deeply offended then
> you must place a high ethical
> value on the murder of meat
> animals.

Meat animals are not murdered.

> If you truly don't care,
> then why would you care what
> value I place on it?

I accept that animals die for me,
you hide your head in the sand.

>> > Waaa waaa waaa... You
>> > and the other anti-s do a lot
>> > more insulting than me. And
>> > worse ones too.
>>
>> What names have I called you that
>> compare with murderer?
>
> I'm not going to dig around in
> the archives, but there was even
> one occassion at least that you
> called me a ****. Usually it's
> the others who use that word
> so it kind of surprised me, but
> sure enough it was you.

Never, and even if I did, what does
that even mean? Nothing. Vegans
call the rest of us murderers, and they
are way out of line, the little shits.

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> >> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> [..]
> >> >> >> > If I
> >> >> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
> >> >> >> > I conveying insults to religious
> >> >> >> > people?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Maybe.
> >> >>
> >> >> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
> >> >>
> >> >> > If they are doing
> >> >> > something like a crusade,
> >> >> > maybe. There are many
> >> >> > episodes throughout history
> >> >> > where one religion kills
> >> >> > people who are not members.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like Al Qaeda..
> >> >>
> >> >> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
> >> >> people murderers, they are murdering people.
> >> >
> >> > Yep.
> >> >
> >> >> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
> >> >> murder, we all do it.
> >> >
> >> > Some people embrace the killings
> >> > whole heartedly, while others are
> >> > upset that there are some
> >> > unavoidable deaths. The fact
> >> > that meat is one of the few
> >> > avoidable deaths is what makes
> >> > it so much more of a moral
> >> > issue than cds.
> >>
> >> I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
> >> grasp it before. Listen carefully.
> >>
> >> Every food has deaths associated with it.
> >> You can remove your association with
> >> those deaths by abstaining from consuming
> >> any one of them. Your singling out of meat
> >> in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.
> >>
> >> Do you get what I just said?
> >
> > Yeah, and I still don't agree.
> > Meat is the one food where
> > the death is optional to the
> > end consumer. Both meat
> > and plant foods have cds
> > but meat has that additional
> > completely optional death.
>
> The animals don't care how you
> categorize them. If you kill them,
> they're dead.

That's right. They don't care
about the ethics involved in
their deaths, but as for the
human role, intent must be
considered in judging morals.

> >> >> The essential point here is that vegans take an
> >> >> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
> >> >> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
> >> >> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
> >> >> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
> >> >> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
> >> >> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
> >> >> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
> >> >> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
> >> >> themselves.
> >> >
> >> > While I feel personally good
> >> > about my choices in comparison
> >> > to a meat eating diet,
> >>
> >> You are committing a fallacy by
> >> lumping together all diets which
> >> include some meat.
>
> You commit a lot of fallacies
>
> >> What about in comparison to a person who
> >> consumes only hand raised and free range
> >> food, including some meat? If that person
> >> causes much less killing than your lifestyle
> >> do you feel good in comparison to him, or
> >> bad?
> >
> > I can't answer that because
> > I don't think it's possible that
> > they are killing less.
>
> You're wrong. I have been both people, and
> I know that I killed the fewest animals when
> all my food came from my own farm.
>
> >That
> > person is still not growing their
> > food veganically
>
> You don't even know what that word means.
>
> > and they are
> > still willing to kill animals they
> > have raised and should feel
> > some compassion for. They
> > still have the intent, ability and
> > motive to kill, whereas even the
> > city vegans do not.
>
> The city vegans have the luxury of
> burying their wooly heads in the sand
> pretending that they live cruelty-free
> lives, while looking down their noses at
> others.

What's this? Urban vs rural
classism?

> >> > I would
> >> > never insist that people I know
> >> > MUST do it too.
> >>
> >> That's because you want to survive
> >> socially. You don't have the courage
> >> of your convictions.
> >
> > Nonsense. All my friends know
> > I'm a vegetarian and fully accept
> > that. I don't hide it from them.
> > Unlike here, they don't pick on
> > me for my ways, so I'm never
> > needing to debate being veg
> > with them.
>
> As usual you have it backwards.
> If you really believe what you say
> about meat being murder you should
> not associate with meat-eaters. But
> you don't mean what you say, you
> never do, you're a flaky stoner who
> likes to shoot off her yap.

I associate with meat eaters.
Big deal. I also associate
with vegans and vegetarians.
Big deal.

> >> > Some of my
> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
> >> > not.
> >>
> >> If you really believed that meat is
> >> murder then you could not tolerate
> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
> >> with many murderers?
> >
> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
> > that tolerate me.
>
> Do you have any friends that kill
> people?

Do soldiers count?

> > Although I
> > would love to see everyone
> > become veg, I realize that what
> > we are taught to eat when young
> > sticks with us and it's hard to
> > change eating patterns.
>
> No it's not, most people eat meat
> by choice, not because it's hard to
> change.

It's what they are used to.

> > I have
> > a number of friends who have
> > said that they would love to be
> > veg but don't think they could
> > do it.
>
> They're probably as flaky as you.

Why, just for giving veg a
consideration and saying
something favourable about
it?

> >> > So explain how I'm doing
> >> > the above.
> >>
> >> You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
> >> because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
> >> but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
> >> to back up your words, like calling your friends
> >> to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
> >> want it all your way. You disgust me.
> >
> > You think I should pick on
> > my friends for having different
> > diets than me?
>
> For being MURDERERS!!!

They are not doing the illegal
types of murder, so why are
you so freaked out? I find it
all disturbing that the population
as a whole is not death-free
but realistically, what can you
do?

> Does that word not mean anything
> to you?
>
> > If they were to
> > join a group like these where
> > the topics were veg, maybe
> > I'd discuss such things with
> > them, but if they don't, I'm not
> > going to go running "it's better
> > to be veg, you know". "let's
> > talk about the morals of being
> > veg". "that isn't chicken you're
> > eating is it?"
>
> I know you wouldn't, because vegans
> are hypocrites by nature who don't
> actually believe what they claim they do.

Damned if I do and damned if
I don't. If I bugged people, I'd
be a bad pesky veg, and if I
don't bug people, I must not
believe or care enough.

> >> >> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
> >> >> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
> >> >> is this person who authored this disgusting black
> >> >> web page?
> >> >> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
> >> >> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
> >> >> she judge me? How dare you?
> >> >
> >> > You have no logical right to
> >> > say I condone ANY website.
> >> > Only I can decide that. I've
> >> > never even been to those
> >> > websites. I've just checked
> >> > them out. All opinions on
> >> > those sites are obviously
> >> > those of the author, not me.
> >> > You will hear and have
> >> > heard my opinions here on
> >> > the newsgroups and MY
> >> > own websites where they
> >> > belong. All my opinions
> >> > come from me, and not from
> >> > others unless I 'explicitly'
> >> > agree with them. None of
> >> > that 'implicitly' stuff.
> >>
> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
> >> What could be more explicit
> >> than that?
> >
> > Murder=killing. Killing=murder.
>
> Wrong, murder and killing are not
> the same thing.
>
> > If one considers all forms of
> > deliberate death to be murder,
> > then everyone is a murderer.
>
> That's not what the word murder
> means. You can't discuss issues
> without understanding the meaning
> of the words you use.
>
> > My body has killed off viruses.
> > I used to be a meat eater and
> > killed animals.
>
> Really? I've never killed an animal.

Who did you hire to kill your animals
on your farm?

> > I have killed
> > mosquitoes trying to bite me.
>
> Self-defence.
>
> > How important you rank a
> > death morally, is another
> > story. You obviously rank all
> > humans above all animals.
>
> So do you. You rank your convenient
> lifestyle above the deaths of animals in
> commercial farming. If you didn't you'd
> be a bigger fool than you actually are.
>
> >> >> >> When one announces that they are a
> >> >> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
> >> >> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
> >> >> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
> >> >> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
> >> >> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
> >> >> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You've all called me a lot
> >> >> > worse than that.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
> >> >> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
> >> >> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
> >> >> effort to see things any other way. Why would
> >> >> we not be angry with you?
> >> >
> >> > Read above about implied
> >> > stuff.
> >>
> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
> >>
> >> I eat meat, therefore
> >>
> >> You think I am a murderer.
> >>
> >> What other conclusion can I draw?
>
> Well??

Duhhh.

> >
> >> Do you or don't you think that meat
> >> is murder?
> >>
> >> > And stop pretending
> >> > like you're an injured party.
> >>
> >> I'm not pretending, I am deeply
> >> offended by your statement that
> >> "Meat *is* murder." You are
> >> condemning me as a monster.
> >
> > If you are deeply offended then
> > you must place a high ethical
> > value on the murder of meat
> > animals.
>
> Meat animals are not murdered.

Yes they are. The motive is food.

> > If you truly don't care,
> > then why would you care what
> > value I place on it?
>
> I accept that animals die for me,
> you hide your head in the sand.

I accept it, but I don't have to like
it. I can have my say, and who
knows what influences it will
have out there, us all discussing
this.

> >> > Waaa waaa waaa... You
> >> > and the other anti-s do a lot
> >> > more insulting than me. And
> >> > worse ones too.
> >>
> >> What names have I called you that
> >> compare with murderer?
> >
> > I'm not going to dig around in
> > the archives, but there was even
> > one occassion at least that you
> > called me a ****. Usually it's
> > the others who use that word
> > so it kind of surprised me, but
> > sure enough it was you.
>
> Never, and even if I did, what does
> that even mean? Nothing. Vegans
> call the rest of us murderers, and they
> are way out of line, the little shits.

Someone's got a little anger
management problem. Don't
worry though, it's not as bad
as the other anti-s.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

"Scented Nectar" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote
[..]
>> >> >> >> > If I
>> >> >> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
>> >> >> >> > I conveying insults to religious
>> >> >> >> > people?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Maybe.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > If they are doing
>> >> >> > something like a crusade,
>> >> >> > maybe. There are many
>> >> >> > episodes throughout history
>> >> >> > where one religion kills
>> >> >> > people who are not members.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Like Al Qaeda..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
>> >> >> people murderers, they are murdering people.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yep.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
>> >> >> murder, we all do it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Some people embrace the killings
>> >> > whole heartedly, while others are
>> >> > upset that there are some
>> >> > unavoidable deaths. The fact
>> >> > that meat is one of the few
>> >> > avoidable deaths is what makes
>> >> > it so much more of a moral
>> >> > issue than cds.
>> >>
>> >> I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
>> >> grasp it before. Listen carefully.
>> >>
>> >> Every food has deaths associated with it.
>> >> You can remove your association with
>> >> those deaths by abstaining from consuming
>> >> any one of them. Your singling out of meat
>> >> in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.
>> >>
>> >> Do you get what I just said?
>> >
>> > Yeah, and I still don't agree.
>> > Meat is the one food where
>> > the death is optional to the
>> > end consumer. Both meat
>> > and plant foods have cds
>> > but meat has that additional
>> > completely optional death.
>>
>> The animals don't care how you
>> categorize them. If you kill them,
>> they're dead.
>
> That's right. They don't care
> about the ethics involved in
> their deaths, but as for the
> human role, intent must be
> considered in judging morals.

There is no difference in the intent or ethics
involved in their deaths. Animals killed in
crop production (or cotton production for
that matter) are killed because of human
wants and needs, just like the animals killed
for their meat. The difference you perceive
is in your imagination. I realize that you can't
see that, but it's true.

>> >> >> The essential point here is that vegans take an
>> >> >> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
>> >> >> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
>> >> >> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
>> >> >> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
>> >> >> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
>> >> >> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
>> >> >> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
>> >> >> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
>> >> >> themselves.
>> >> >
>> >> > While I feel personally good
>> >> > about my choices in comparison
>> >> > to a meat eating diet,
>> >>
>> >> You are committing a fallacy by
>> >> lumping together all diets which
>> >> include some meat.
>>
>> You commit a lot of fallacies
>>
>> >> What about in comparison to a person who
>> >> consumes only hand raised and free range
>> >> food, including some meat? If that person
>> >> causes much less killing than your lifestyle
>> >> do you feel good in comparison to him, or
>> >> bad?
>> >
>> > I can't answer that because
>> > I don't think it's possible that
>> > they are killing less.
>>
>> You're wrong. I have been both people, and
>> I know that I killed the fewest animals when
>> all my food came from my own farm.
>>
>> >That
>> > person is still not growing their
>> > food veganically
>>
>> You don't even know what that word means.
>>
>> > and they are
>> > still willing to kill animals they
>> > have raised and should feel
>> > some compassion for. They
>> > still have the intent, ability and
>> > motive to kill, whereas even the
>> > city vegans do not.
>>
>> The city vegans have the luxury of
>> burying their wooly heads in the sand
>> pretending that they live cruelty-free
>> lives, while looking down their noses at
>> others.
>
> What's this? Urban vs rural
> classism?

No, clueless urban veganism.

>> >> > I would
>> >> > never insist that people I know
>> >> > MUST do it too.
>> >>
>> >> That's because you want to survive
>> >> socially. You don't have the courage
>> >> of your convictions.
>> >
>> > Nonsense. All my friends know
>> > I'm a vegetarian and fully accept
>> > that. I don't hide it from them.
>> > Unlike here, they don't pick on
>> > me for my ways, so I'm never
>> > needing to debate being veg
>> > with them.
>>
>> As usual you have it backwards.
>> If you really believe what you say
>> about meat being murder you should
>> not associate with meat-eaters. But
>> you don't mean what you say, you
>> never do, you're a flaky stoner who
>> likes to shoot off her yap.
>
> I associate with meat eaters.
> Big deal.

Murderers, you associate with murderers
and you don't say boo, because you want
them to like you.

> I also associate
> with vegans and vegetarians.
> Big deal.

It is if your words mean anything, but
we both know that they don't, you're
a poseur, a pothead and a fake.


>> >> > Some of my
>> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
>> >> > not.
>> >>
>> >> If you really believed that meat is
>> >> murder then you could not tolerate
>> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
>> >> with many murderers?
>> >
>> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
>> > that tolerate me.
>>
>> Do you have any friends that kill
>> people?
>
> Do soldiers count?

Sure, are they murderers too? Do you
call your soldier friends murderers?

>> > Although I
>> > would love to see everyone
>> > become veg, I realize that what
>> > we are taught to eat when young
>> > sticks with us and it's hard to
>> > change eating patterns.
>>
>> No it's not, most people eat meat
>> by choice, not because it's hard to
>> change.
>
> It's what they are used to.

That doesn't mean they want to
change.

>> > I have
>> > a number of friends who have
>> > said that they would love to be
>> > veg but don't think they could
>> > do it.
>>
>> They're probably as flaky as you.
>
> Why, just for giving veg a
> consideration and saying
> something favourable about
> it?

No, for associating with you.

>> >> > So explain how I'm doing
>> >> > the above.
>> >>
>> >> You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
>> >> because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
>> >> but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
>> >> to back up your words, like calling your friends
>> >> to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
>> >> want it all your way. You disgust me.
>> >
>> > You think I should pick on
>> > my friends for having different
>> > diets than me?
>>
>> For being MURDERERS!!!
>
> They are not doing the illegal
> types of murder, so why are
> you so freaked out?

Murder is a legal term, and it is
always illegal, by definition.

> I find it
> all disturbing that the population
> as a whole is not death-free
> but realistically, what can you
> do?

You find it disturbing that life isn't
like a Disney movie. You need to
get real.

>> Does that word not mean anything
>> to you?

Apparently not.

>> > If they were to
>> > join a group like these where
>> > the topics were veg, maybe
>> > I'd discuss such things with
>> > them, but if they don't, I'm not
>> > going to go running "it's better
>> > to be veg, you know". "let's
>> > talk about the morals of being
>> > veg". "that isn't chicken you're
>> > eating is it?"
>>
>> I know you wouldn't, because vegans
>> are hypocrites by nature who don't
>> actually believe what they claim they do.
>
> Damned if I do and damned if
> I don't. If I bugged people, I'd
> be a bad pesky veg, and if I
> don't bug people, I must not
> believe or care enough.

So you choose to ingratiate yourself
to murderers rather than speak out.
That's a typical vegan hypocrite.


>> >> >> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
>> >> >> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
>> >> >> is this person who authored this disgusting black
>> >> >> web page?
>> >> >> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
>> >> >> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
>> >> >> she judge me? How dare you?
>> >> >
>> >> > You have no logical right to
>> >> > say I condone ANY website.
>> >> > Only I can decide that. I've
>> >> > never even been to those
>> >> > websites. I've just checked
>> >> > them out. All opinions on
>> >> > those sites are obviously
>> >> > those of the author, not me.
>> >> > You will hear and have
>> >> > heard my opinions here on
>> >> > the newsgroups and MY
>> >> > own websites where they
>> >> > belong. All my opinions
>> >> > come from me, and not from
>> >> > others unless I 'explicitly'
>> >> > agree with them. None of
>> >> > that 'implicitly' stuff.
>> >>
>> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
>> >> What could be more explicit
>> >> than that?
>> >
>> > Murder=killing. Killing=murder.
>>
>> Wrong, murder and killing are not
>> the same thing.
>>
>> > If one considers all forms of
>> > deliberate death to be murder,
>> > then everyone is a murderer.
>>
>> That's not what the word murder
>> means. You can't discuss issues
>> without understanding the meaning
>> of the words you use.
>>
>> > My body has killed off viruses.
>> > I used to be a meat eater and
>> > killed animals.
>>
>> Really? I've never killed an animal.
>
> Who did you hire to kill your animals
> on your farm?

You don't know them. What animals have
you killed?

>
>> > I have killed
>> > mosquitoes trying to bite me.
>>
>> Self-defence.
>>
>> > How important you rank a
>> > death morally, is another
>> > story. You obviously rank all
>> > humans above all animals.
>>
>> So do you. You rank your convenient
>> lifestyle above the deaths of animals in
>> commercial farming. If you didn't you'd
>> be a bigger fool than you actually are.
>>
>> >> >> >> When one announces that they are a
>> >> >> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
>> >> >> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
>> >> >> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
>> >> >> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
>> >> >> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
>> >> >> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You've all called me a lot
>> >> >> > worse than that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
>> >> >> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
>> >> >> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
>> >> >> effort to see things any other way. Why would
>> >> >> we not be angry with you?
>> >> >
>> >> > Read above about implied
>> >> > stuff.
>> >>
>> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
>> >>
>> >> I eat meat, therefore
>> >>
>> >> You think I am a murderer.
>> >>
>> >> What other conclusion can I draw?
>>
>> Well??
>
> Duhhh.

Meaning?

>> >
>> >> Do you or don't you think that meat
>> >> is murder?
>> >>
>> >> > And stop pretending
>> >> > like you're an injured party.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not pretending, I am deeply
>> >> offended by your statement that
>> >> "Meat *is* murder." You are
>> >> condemning me as a monster.
>> >
>> > If you are deeply offended then
>> > you must place a high ethical
>> > value on the murder of meat
>> > animals.
>>
>> Meat animals are not murdered.
>
> Yes they are. The motive is food.

Do you ever bother to look words up
when you aren't sure what they mean?

Probably not, you revel in your ignorance.


>> > If you truly don't care,
>> > then why would you care what
>> > value I place on it?
>>
>> I accept that animals die for me,
>> you hide your head in the sand.
>
> I accept it, but I don't have to like
> it. I can have my say, and who
> knows what influences it will
> have out there, us all discussing
> this.

You don't like it, so you single out
other people to bear the burden of
your guilt.

>
>> >> > Waaa waaa waaa... You
>> >> > and the other anti-s do a lot
>> >> > more insulting than me. And
>> >> > worse ones too.
>> >>
>> >> What names have I called you that
>> >> compare with murderer?
>> >
>> > I'm not going to dig around in
>> > the archives, but there was even
>> > one occassion at least that you
>> > called me a ****. Usually it's
>> > the others who use that word
>> > so it kind of surprised me, but
>> > sure enough it was you.
>>
>> Never, and even if I did, what does
>> that even mean? Nothing. Vegans
>> call the rest of us murderers, and they
>> are way out of line, the little shits.
>
> Someone's got a little anger
> management problem. Don't
> worry though, it's not as bad
> as the other anti-s.

**** yourself with a broken bottle
you smarmy little toad. How's that?

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote
> [..]
> >> >> >> >> > If I
> >> >> >> >> > announce that I am atheist, am
> >> >> >> >> > I conveying insults to religious
> >> >> >> >> > people?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Do atheists call non-atheists murderers?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Maybe.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No, they argue that theists' beliefs are irrational.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If they are doing
> >> >> >> > something like a crusade,
> >> >> >> > maybe. There are many
> >> >> >> > episodes throughout history
> >> >> >> > where one religion kills
> >> >> >> > people who are not members.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like Al Qaeda..
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Then an atheist would be correct in calling those
> >> >> >> people murderers, they are murdering people.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yep.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Killing animals in the production of food is NOT
> >> >> >> murder, we all do it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Some people embrace the killings
> >> >> > whole heartedly, while others are
> >> >> > upset that there are some
> >> >> > unavoidable deaths. The fact
> >> >> > that meat is one of the few
> >> >> > avoidable deaths is what makes
> >> >> > it so much more of a moral
> >> >> > issue than cds.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will repeat this, since you apparently didn't
> >> >> grasp it before. Listen carefully.
> >> >>
> >> >> Every food has deaths associated with it.
> >> >> You can remove your association with
> >> >> those deaths by abstaining from consuming
> >> >> any one of them. Your singling out of meat
> >> >> in this respect is not logical, its self-serving.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you get what I just said?
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, and I still don't agree.
> >> > Meat is the one food where
> >> > the death is optional to the
> >> > end consumer. Both meat
> >> > and plant foods have cds
> >> > but meat has that additional
> >> > completely optional death.
> >>
> >> The animals don't care how you
> >> categorize them. If you kill them,
> >> they're dead.
> >
> > That's right. They don't care
> > about the ethics involved in
> > their deaths, but as for the
> > human role, intent must be
> > considered in judging morals.
>
> There is no difference in the intent or ethics
> involved in their deaths. Animals killed in
> crop production (or cotton production for
> that matter) are killed because of human
> wants and needs, just like the animals killed
> for their meat. The difference you perceive
> is in your imagination. I realize that you can't
> see that, but it's true.

Then you are saying that
ethics are just our imaginations
too.

> >> >> >> The essential point here is that vegans take an
> >> >> >> innocuous and arguably even good idea, which
> >> >> >> is to abstain from eating meat, then pervert it
> >> >> >> beyond recognition by indulging in these extreme
> >> >> >> and offensive characterizations of anyone who
> >> >> >> does not follow the same prescription for morality.
> >> >> >> Why do they do this? My conclusion is that they
> >> >> >> benefit by comparison. The more they condemn
> >> >> >> and revile non-believers the better they feel about
> >> >> >> themselves.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > While I feel personally good
> >> >> > about my choices in comparison
> >> >> > to a meat eating diet,
> >> >>
> >> >> You are committing a fallacy by
> >> >> lumping together all diets which
> >> >> include some meat.
> >>
> >> You commit a lot of fallacies
> >>
> >> >> What about in comparison to a person who
> >> >> consumes only hand raised and free range
> >> >> food, including some meat? If that person
> >> >> causes much less killing than your lifestyle
> >> >> do you feel good in comparison to him, or
> >> >> bad?
> >> >
> >> > I can't answer that because
> >> > I don't think it's possible that
> >> > they are killing less.
> >>
> >> You're wrong. I have been both people, and
> >> I know that I killed the fewest animals when
> >> all my food came from my own farm.
> >>
> >> >That
> >> > person is still not growing their
> >> > food veganically
> >>
> >> You don't even know what that word means.
> >>
> >> > and they are
> >> > still willing to kill animals they
> >> > have raised and should feel
> >> > some compassion for. They
> >> > still have the intent, ability and
> >> > motive to kill, whereas even the
> >> > city vegans do not.
> >>
> >> The city vegans have the luxury of
> >> burying their wooly heads in the sand
> >> pretending that they live cruelty-free
> >> lives, while looking down their noses at
> >> others.
> >
> > What's this? Urban vs rural
> > classism?
>
> No, clueless urban veganism.

You seem to think that urban
vegans are against rurals with
your claim that they look down
their noses at others.

> >> >> > I would
> >> >> > never insist that people I know
> >> >> > MUST do it too.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's because you want to survive
> >> >> socially. You don't have the courage
> >> >> of your convictions.
> >> >
> >> > Nonsense. All my friends know
> >> > I'm a vegetarian and fully accept
> >> > that. I don't hide it from them.
> >> > Unlike here, they don't pick on
> >> > me for my ways, so I'm never
> >> > needing to debate being veg
> >> > with them.
> >>
> >> As usual you have it backwards.
> >> If you really believe what you say
> >> about meat being murder you should
> >> not associate with meat-eaters. But
> >> you don't mean what you say, you
> >> never do, you're a flaky stoner who
> >> likes to shoot off her yap.
> >
> > I associate with meat eaters.
> > Big deal.
>
> Murderers, you associate with murderers
> and you don't say boo, because you want
> them to like you.

I don't say boo because it's
not the right forum for such
discussions.

> > I also associate
> > with vegans and vegetarians.
> > Big deal.
>
> It is if your words mean anything, but
> we both know that they don't, you're
> a poseur, a pothead and a fake.

When was the last time you
drank an alcoholic beverage?
If you are going to pick on my
mild drug of choice, I'll need
to know your mild drug status.

> >> >> > Some of my
> >> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
> >> >> > not.
> >> >>
> >> >> If you really believed that meat is
> >> >> murder then you could not tolerate
> >> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
> >> >> with many murderers?
> >> >
> >> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
> >> > that tolerate me.
> >>
> >> Do you have any friends that kill
> >> people?
> >
> > Do soldiers count?
>
> Sure, are they murderers too? Do you
> call your soldier friends murderers?

If they have killed people then
what do you think? Is there an
exception? Killing, murdering,
slaughtering, whatever, it all
boils down to the same thing.
The taking of a life for whatever
reason, justified or not, avoidable
or not.

> >> > Although I
> >> > would love to see everyone
> >> > become veg, I realize that what
> >> > we are taught to eat when young
> >> > sticks with us and it's hard to
> >> > change eating patterns.
> >>
> >> No it's not, most people eat meat
> >> by choice, not because it's hard to
> >> change.
> >
> > It's what they are used to.
>
> That doesn't mean they want to
> change.

No, and it doesn't mean they
don't either.

> >> > I have
> >> > a number of friends who have
> >> > said that they would love to be
> >> > veg but don't think they could
> >> > do it.
> >>
> >> They're probably as flaky as you.
> >
> > Why, just for giving veg a
> > consideration and saying
> > something favourable about
> > it?
>
> No, for associating with you.

See, there you go with starting
up insults again.

> >> >> > So explain how I'm doing
> >> >> > the above.
> >> >>
> >> >> You're irrational. You say that meat is murder
> >> >> because it makes you feel like a hero to do so,
> >> >> but when confronted with an actual sacrifice
> >> >> to back up your words, like calling your friends
> >> >> to task for being murderers, you wimp out. You
> >> >> want it all your way. You disgust me.
> >> >
> >> > You think I should pick on
> >> > my friends for having different
> >> > diets than me?
> >>
> >> For being MURDERERS!!!
> >
> > They are not doing the illegal
> > types of murder, so why are
> > you so freaked out?
>
> Murder is a legal term, and it is
> always illegal, by definition.

I'm not using the legal def. which
restricts it's usage just to the
human animal under specific
conditions.

> > I find it
> > all disturbing that the population
> > as a whole is not death-free
> > but realistically, what can you
> > do?
>
> You find it disturbing that life isn't
> like a Disney movie. You need to
> get real.
>
> >> Does that word not mean anything
> >> to you?
>
> Apparently not.

What word? It's been snipped
out.

> >> > If they were to
> >> > join a group like these where
> >> > the topics were veg, maybe
> >> > I'd discuss such things with
> >> > them, but if they don't, I'm not
> >> > going to go running "it's better
> >> > to be veg, you know". "let's
> >> > talk about the morals of being
> >> > veg". "that isn't chicken you're
> >> > eating is it?"
> >>
> >> I know you wouldn't, because vegans
> >> are hypocrites by nature who don't
> >> actually believe what they claim they do.
> >
> > Damned if I do and damned if
> > I don't. If I bugged people, I'd
> > be a bad pesky veg, and if I
> > don't bug people, I must not
> > believe or care enough.
>
> So you choose to ingratiate yourself
> to murderers rather than speak out.
> That's a typical vegan hypocrite.

But a moment ago you were
complaining that vegans
were looking down their
noses at you. Damned if you
do and damned if you don't.

> >> >> >> You have implicitly condoned the sentiments at
> >> >> >> http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm And who
> >> >> >> is this person who authored this disgusting black
> >> >> >> web page?
> >> >> >> http://www.myanimalart.com/pages/artistbio.html
> >> >> >> Who does this young lady think she is? How dare
> >> >> >> she judge me? How dare you?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You have no logical right to
> >> >> > say I condone ANY website.
> >> >> > Only I can decide that. I've
> >> >> > never even been to those
> >> >> > websites. I've just checked
> >> >> > them out. All opinions on
> >> >> > those sites are obviously
> >> >> > those of the author, not me.
> >> >> > You will hear and have
> >> >> > heard my opinions here on
> >> >> > the newsgroups and MY
> >> >> > own websites where they
> >> >> > belong. All my opinions
> >> >> > come from me, and not from
> >> >> > others unless I 'explicitly'
> >> >> > agree with them. None of
> >> >> > that 'implicitly' stuff.
> >> >>
> >> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
> >> >> What could be more explicit
> >> >> than that?
> >> >
> >> > Murder=killing. Killing=murder.
> >>
> >> Wrong, murder and killing are not
> >> the same thing.
> >>
> >> > If one considers all forms of
> >> > deliberate death to be murder,
> >> > then everyone is a murderer.
> >>
> >> That's not what the word murder
> >> means. You can't discuss issues
> >> without understanding the meaning
> >> of the words you use.
> >>
> >> > My body has killed off viruses.
> >> > I used to be a meat eater and
> >> > killed animals.
> >>
> >> Really? I've never killed an animal.
> >
> > Who did you hire to kill your animals
> > on your farm?
>
> You don't know them. What animals have
> you killed?

Mosquitoes. How come you
didn't do your own killing?

> >> > I have killed
> >> > mosquitoes trying to bite me.
> >>
> >> Self-defence.
> >>
> >> > How important you rank a
> >> > death morally, is another
> >> > story. You obviously rank all
> >> > humans above all animals.
> >>
> >> So do you. You rank your convenient
> >> lifestyle above the deaths of animals in
> >> commercial farming. If you didn't you'd
> >> be a bigger fool than you actually are.
> >>
> >> >> >> >> When one announces that they are a
> >> >> >> >> vegan they are implicitly agreeing with
> >> >> >> >> the characterization "Meat is Murder."
> >> >> >> >> You did it yourself. And you whine
> >> >> >> >> incessantly about being insulted. Have
> >> >> >> >> any of us called you a murderer? The
> >> >> >> >> worst we do is call you a dope.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > You've all called me a lot
> >> >> >> > worse than that.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have never implied that you were a murderer,
> >> >> >> none of us has. You have implicitly called me a
> >> >> >> murderer, and you absolutely refuse to make an
> >> >> >> effort to see things any other way. Why would
> >> >> >> we not be angry with you?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Read above about implied
> >> >> > stuff.
> >> >>
> >> >> You said "Meat *is* murder."
> >> >>
> >> >> I eat meat, therefore
> >> >>
> >> >> You think I am a murderer.
> >> >>
> >> >> What other conclusion can I draw?
> >>
> >> Well??
> >
> > Duhhh.
>
> Meaning?

You are eating murdered
animals. Murder for hire.

> >> >> Do you or don't you think that meat
> >> >> is murder?
> >> >>
> >> >> > And stop pretending
> >> >> > like you're an injured party.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not pretending, I am deeply
> >> >> offended by your statement that
> >> >> "Meat *is* murder." You are
> >> >> condemning me as a monster.
> >> >
> >> > If you are deeply offended then
> >> > you must place a high ethical
> >> > value on the murder of meat
> >> > animals.
> >>
> >> Meat animals are not murdered.
> >
> > Yes they are. The motive is food.
>
> Do you ever bother to look words up
> when you aren't sure what they mean?
>
> Probably not, you revel in your ignorance.

More insults I note. And you
guys are really surprised when
others insult you back?

> >> > If you truly don't care,
> >> > then why would you care what
> >> > value I place on it?
> >>
> >> I accept that animals die for me,
> >> you hide your head in the sand.
> >
> > I accept it, but I don't have to like
> > it. I can have my say, and who
> > knows what influences it will
> > have out there, us all discussing
> > this.
>
> You don't like it, so you single out
> other people to bear the burden of
> your guilt.

I don't feel guilty, so there's
no burden.

> >> >> > Waaa waaa waaa... You
> >> >> > and the other anti-s do a lot
> >> >> > more insulting than me. And
> >> >> > worse ones too.
> >> >>
> >> >> What names have I called you that
> >> >> compare with murderer?
> >> >
> >> > I'm not going to dig around in
> >> > the archives, but there was even
> >> > one occassion at least that you
> >> > called me a ****. Usually it's
> >> > the others who use that word
> >> > so it kind of surprised me, but
> >> > sure enough it was you.
> >>
> >> Never, and even if I did, what does
> >> that even mean? Nothing. Vegans
> >> call the rest of us murderers, and they
> >> are way out of line, the little shits.
> >
> > Someone's got a little anger
> > management problem. Don't
> > worry though, it's not as bad
> > as the other anti-s.
>
> **** yourself with a broken bottle
> you smarmy little toad. How's that?

Thanks for proving you are worthy
of insulting back.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

Clueless Urbanite wrote:
<...>
>>>>The city vegans have the luxury of
>>>>burying their wooly heads in the sand
>>>>pretending that they live cruelty-free
>>>>lives, while looking down their noses at
>>>>others.
>>>
>>>What's this? Urban vs rural
>>>classism?
>>
>>No, clueless urban veganism.
>
> You seem to think that urban
> vegans

"Urban vegan" is redundant. Veganism is a feeble, emotive response to
the realities of the world beyond the city limits.

> are against rurals with
> your claim that they look down
> their noses at others.

Vegans are indeed snobbish and elitist. You've repeatedly demonstrated
your own smug sanctimony when calling others "meatarian" or "meat
lobby," and by suggesting farmers should consider your juvenile
objections to CDs in designing new machinery, etc. You're a twit, a
raving moron.

<...>

"Scented Nectar" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote

[..]

>> >> The animals don't care how you
>> >> categorize them. If you kill them,
>> >> they're dead.
>> >
>> > That's right. They don't care
>> > about the ethics involved in
>> > their deaths, but as for the
>> > human role, intent must be
>> > considered in judging morals.
>>
>> There is no difference in the intent or ethics
>> involved in their deaths. Animals killed in
>> crop production (or cotton production for
>> that matter) are killed because of human
>> wants and needs, just like the animals killed
>> for their meat. The difference you perceive
>> is in your imagination. I realize that you can't
>> see that, but it's true.
>
> Then you are saying that
> ethics are just our imaginations
> too.

The ethical difference in this case is what
is imaginary, i.e. non-existent.

[..]

> You seem to think that urban
> vegans are against rurals with
> your claim that they look down
> their noses at others.

Vegans look down their noses at anyone
who does not abstain from eating meat.
It doesn't matter if that person has a tiny
impact, causing few animal deaths.

[..]

>> Murderers, you associate with murderers
>> and you don't say boo, because you want
>> them to like you.
>
> I don't say boo because it's
> not the right forum for such
> discussions.

Your words are hollow. You talk the
talk but you don't walk the walk.

>> > I also associate
>> > with vegans and vegetarians.
>> > Big deal.
>>
>> It is if your words mean anything, but
>> we both know that they don't, you're
>> a poseur, a pothead and a fake.
>
> When was the last time you
> drank an alcoholic beverage?
> If you are going to pick on my
> mild drug of choice, I'll need
> to know your mild drug status.

Unless you are getting some crappy
homegrown, pot is not a mild drug
it is a powerful mind-altering substance.


>> >> >> > Some of my
>> >> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
>> >> >> > not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you really believed that meat is
>> >> >> murder then you could not tolerate
>> >> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
>> >> >> with many murderers?
>> >> >
>> >> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
>> >> > that tolerate me.
>> >>
>> >> Do you have any friends that kill
>> >> people?
>> >
>> > Do soldiers count?
>>
>> Sure, are they murderers too? Do you
>> call your soldier friends murderers?
>
> If they have killed people then
> what do you think?

I *know* that you would not say boo
to them.

> Is there an
> exception?

To what?

> Killing, murdering,
> slaughtering, whatever, it all
> boils down to the same thing.

No it doesn't.

> The taking of a life for whatever
> reason, justified or not, avoidable
> or not.

Is all the same? What nonsense. You
say later on that the killing that goes on
to support your lifestyle doesn't make
you feel guilty, that means that you must
see differences between different forms
of killing.

[..]

>> >> > You think I should pick on
>> >> > my friends for having different
>> >> > diets than me?
>> >>
>> >> For being MURDERERS!!!
>> >
>> > They are not doing the illegal
>> > types of murder, so why are
>> > you so freaked out?
>>
>> Murder is a legal term, and it is
>> always illegal, by definition.
>
> I'm not using the legal def. which
> restricts it's usage just to the
> human animal under specific
> conditions.

There is no other meaning. You, and
other pro-vegans use the word improperly
for the purpose of insulting people and
stirring up emotions. All killing is not
murder, in fact very, very little of it is.

>> > I find it
>> > all disturbing that the population
>> > as a whole is not death-free
>> > but realistically, what can you
>> > do?
>>
>> You find it disturbing that life isn't
>> like a Disney movie. You need to
>> get real.
>>
>> >> Does that word not mean anything
>> >> to you?
>>
>> Apparently not.
>
> What word? It's been snipped
> out.

The word we've been talking about all
along, "murder", used improperly in the
context of the phrase "meat is murder".
[..]

>> So you choose to ingratiate yourself
>> to murderers rather than speak out.
>> That's a typical vegan hypocrite.
>
> But a moment ago you were
> complaining that vegans
> were looking down their
> noses at you. Damned if you
> do and damned if you don't.

There's a difference between looking
down your nose and speaking out.
Vegans look down their noses so they
can have this smarmy sense of super-
iority, but when it comes right down to
social situations, very have the guts to
stand behind these extreme statements.

[..]

>> >> > I used to be a meat eater and
>> >> > killed animals.
>> >>
>> >> Really? I've never killed an animal.
>> >
>> > Who did you hire to kill your animals
>> > on your farm?
>>
>> You don't know them. What animals have
>> you killed?
>
> Mosquitoes.

You said that you killed animals when
you were a meat eater, what did you
mean?

> How come you
> didn't do your own killing?

I would rather leave it people with the
facilities and expertise to do it properly.

[..]

> You are eating murdered
> animals. Murder for hire.

So it's the act of eating them that bothers you,
not the actual killing? Apparently so, since your
hired hands kill animals also. It's odd that you
think that the use of a carcass of an animal has
moral importance.

[..]

>> >> I accept that animals die for me,
>> >> you hide your head in the sand.
>> >
>> > I accept it, but I don't have to like
>> > it. I can have my say, and who
>> > knows what influences it will
>> > have out there, us all discussing
>> > this.
>>
>> You don't like it, so you single out
>> other people to bear the burden of
>> your guilt.
>
> I don't feel guilty, so there's
> no burden.

Let's get this straight...

Animals die to support your comfy lifestyle,
you don't like it, but it doesn't make you feel
guilty. Yet, you wish to make me feel guilty
because animals die to support my lifestyle.
Why can't you see the hypocrisy?

[..]

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote
>
> [..]
>
> >> >> The animals don't care how you
> >> >> categorize them. If you kill them,
> >> >> they're dead.
> >> >
> >> > That's right. They don't care
> >> > about the ethics involved in
> >> > their deaths, but as for the
> >> > human role, intent must be
> >> > considered in judging morals.
> >>
> >> There is no difference in the intent or ethics
> >> involved in their deaths. Animals killed in
> >> crop production (or cotton production for
> >> that matter) are killed because of human
> >> wants and needs, just like the animals killed
> >> for their meat. The difference you perceive
> >> is in your imagination. I realize that you can't
> >> see that, but it's true.
> >
> > Then you are saying that
> > ethics are just our imaginations
> > too.
>
> The ethical difference in this case is what
> is imaginary, i.e. non-existent.

For you maybe. If you can't
understand the ethics of killing,
I can't help you.

> > You seem to think that urban
> > vegans are against rurals with
> > your claim that they look down
> > their noses at others.
>
> Vegans look down their noses at anyone
> who does not abstain from eating meat.
> It doesn't matter if that person has a tiny
> impact, causing few animal deaths.

In what manner have they
looked down their noses at
you? Did they even invite you
over here to debate it?

> >> Murderers, you associate with murderers
> >> and you don't say boo, because you want
> >> them to like you.
> >
> > I don't say boo because it's
> > not the right forum for such
> > discussions.
>
> Your words are hollow. You talk the
> talk but you don't walk the walk.

See? Damned if...etc.etc.

> >> > I also associate
> >> > with vegans and vegetarians.
> >> > Big deal.
> >>
> >> It is if your words mean anything, but
> >> we both know that they don't, you're
> >> a poseur, a pothead and a fake.
> >
> > When was the last time you
> > drank an alcoholic beverage?
> > If you are going to pick on my
> > mild drug of choice, I'll need
> > to know your mild drug status.
>
> Unless you are getting some crappy
> homegrown, pot is not a mild drug
> it is a powerful mind-altering substance.

I smoke very good pot and
when I compare it to my once
every 2 years or so drinking,
I feel that the drinking
intoxicates me worse, and
I don't even drink much or
I get sick, so I'm talking 1
or 2 glasses of wine or
equivalent.

> >> >> >> > Some of my
> >> >> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
> >> >> >> > not.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If you really believed that meat is
> >> >> >> murder then you could not tolerate
> >> >> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
> >> >> >> with many murderers?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
> >> >> > that tolerate me.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you have any friends that kill
> >> >> people?
> >> >
> >> > Do soldiers count?
> >>
> >> Sure, are they murderers too? Do you
> >> call your soldier friends murderers?
> >
> > If they have killed people then
> > what do you think?
>
> I *know* that you would not say boo
> to them.

Why should they be any different
than my meat eating friends in
regards to how I interact with
them.

> > Is there an
> > exception?
>
> To what?

To killings/murders/slaughters.

> > Killing, murdering,
> > slaughtering, whatever, it all
> > boils down to the same thing.
>
> No it doesn't.

Semantics.

> > The taking of a life for whatever
> > reason, justified or not, avoidable
> > or not.
>
> Is all the same? What nonsense. You
> say later on that the killing that goes on
> to support your lifestyle doesn't make
> you feel guilty, that means that you must
> see differences between different forms
> of killing.

Of course, but that doesn't
mean I don't still call it killing.

> >> >> > You think I should pick on
> >> >> > my friends for having different
> >> >> > diets than me?
> >> >>
> >> >> For being MURDERERS!!!
> >> >
> >> > They are not doing the illegal
> >> > types of murder, so why are
> >> > you so freaked out?
> >>
> >> Murder is a legal term, and it is
> >> always illegal, by definition.
> >
> > I'm not using the legal def. which
> > restricts it's usage just to the
> > human animal under specific
> > conditions.
>
> There is no other meaning. You, and
> other pro-vegans use the word improperly
> for the purpose of insulting people and
> stirring up emotions. All killing is not
> murder, in fact very, very little of it is.

If you take it as an insult,
you should question yourself
about whether you maybe
agree just a little bit.

> >> > I find it
> >> > all disturbing that the population
> >> > as a whole is not death-free
> >> > but realistically, what can you
> >> > do?
> >>
> >> You find it disturbing that life isn't
> >> like a Disney movie. You need to
> >> get real.
> >>
> >> >> Does that word not mean anything
> >> >> to you?
> >>
> >> Apparently not.
> >
> > What word? It's been snipped
> > out.
>
> The word we've been talking about all
> along, "murder", used improperly in the
> context of the phrase "meat is murder".
> [..]
>
> >> So you choose to ingratiate yourself
> >> to murderers rather than speak out.
> >> That's a typical vegan hypocrite.
> >
> > But a moment ago you were
> > complaining that vegans
> > were looking down their
> > noses at you. Damned if you
> > do and damned if you don't.
>
> There's a difference between looking
> down your nose and speaking out.
> Vegans look down their noses so they
> can have this smarmy sense of super-
> iority, but when it comes right down to
> social situations, very have the guts to
> stand behind these extreme statements.

There's your double standard
again. You don't want vegans
to look down their noses at you
but you do want them to confront
your meat eating.

> >> >> > I used to be a meat eater and
> >> >> > killed animals.
> >> >>
> >> >> Really? I've never killed an animal.
> >> >
> >> > Who did you hire to kill your animals
> >> > on your farm?
> >>
> >> You don't know them. What animals have
> >> you killed?
> >
> > Mosquitoes.
>
> You said that you killed animals when
> you were a meat eater, what did you
> mean?

Oh yeah. Whenever I ate an
entire animal, or part of one,
I was in on the killing of it. I
had to for the finished product.
When veggie though, I don't
request any killings so if any
happen through cds, at least
it wasn't at my direct request
to get the body.

> > How come you
> > didn't do your own killing?
>
> I would rather leave it people with the
> facilities and expertise to do it properly.

So you sent them to a
commercial hellhole for their
last day(s).

> > You are eating murdered
> > animals. Murder for hire.
>
> So it's the act of eating them that bothers you,
> not the actual killing? Apparently so, since your
> hired hands kill animals also. It's odd that you
> think that the use of a carcass of an animal has
> moral importance.

That's the avoidable death.
The others aren't.

> >> >> I accept that animals die for me,
> >> >> you hide your head in the sand.
> >> >
> >> > I accept it, but I don't have to like
> >> > it. I can have my say, and who
> >> > knows what influences it will
> >> > have out there, us all discussing
> >> > this.
> >>
> >> You don't like it, so you single out
> >> other people to bear the burden of
> >> your guilt.
> >
> > I don't feel guilty, so there's
> > no burden.
>
> Let's get this straight...
>
> Animals die to support your comfy lifestyle,
> you don't like it, but it doesn't make you feel
> guilty. Yet, you wish to make me feel guilty
> because animals die to support my lifestyle.
> Why can't you see the hypocrisy?

I'm not trying to make you
personally feel guilty. I'm just
telling my beliefs on these
veggie newsgroups. If we
disagree and debate, well
what do you expect? If you
hang out in a veg group and
you're not veg, of course
you're going to feel out of
place.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

Found scrawled in the outhouse on Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:07:32 GMT, usual suspect
> wrote:

>Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>>>>Then how come it's the
>>>>>>anti-vegans here who do 98%
>>>>>>(approx) of the insulting?
>>>>>
>>>>>If you go and have a
>>>>>massive stroke, um, well,
>>>>>never mind go ahead.
>>>>>-- Skanky, 18 July 2005
>>
>> Every time
>
>Skanky, why do you openly wish harm upon your fellow humans while
>masquerading as a compassionate person who believes it's wrong to kill
>animals?

<snip for brevity>

And THAT, SN, is the foundation of your hypocrisy! You can't have it both ways. You object
to being referred to with the C word. Then stop acting like one! You claim to have the
*only* moral high ground and become offended when that bubble is consistently burst by
others.

I sincerely hope that YOU do not see yourself as representative of ALL vegans, because the
lack of compassion, the murderous glee you use to wish harm upon others is as horrifying
as a serial killer......which, come to think of it vegan-wise, you are.

Jeers 2 U,

Leslie
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
And I'm not sure about the former.".... Albert Einstein

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> > "Dutch" > wrote
>>
>> [..]
>>
>> >> >> The animals don't care how you
>> >> >> categorize them. If you kill them,
>> >> >> they're dead.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's right. They don't care
>> >> > about the ethics involved in
>> >> > their deaths, but as for the
>> >> > human role, intent must be
>> >> > considered in judging morals.
>> >>
>> >> There is no difference in the intent or ethics
>> >> involved in their deaths. Animals killed in
>> >> crop production (or cotton production for
>> >> that matter) are killed because of human
>> >> wants and needs, just like the animals killed
>> >> for their meat. The difference you perceive
>> >> is in your imagination. I realize that you can't
>> >> see that, but it's true.
>> >
>> > Then you are saying that
>> > ethics are just our imaginations
>> > too.
>>
>> The ethical difference in this case is what
>> is imaginary, i.e. non-existent.
>
> For you maybe. If you can't
> understand the ethics of killing,
> I can't help you.

Let's recap...

It's you who does not know the difference
between the words immoral and bad.

It's you who does not know the difference
between the words killing and murder.

You have the mind of a precocious 8 year old.

Which of us does not understand ethics?


>> > You seem to think that urban
>> > vegans are against rurals with
>> > your claim that they look down
>> > their noses at others.
>>
>> Vegans look down their noses at anyone
>> who does not abstain from eating meat.
>> It doesn't matter if that person has a tiny
>> impact, causing few animal deaths.
>
> In what manner have they
> looked down their noses at
> you?

http://www.meat.org/meatismurder.htm

> Did they even invite you
> over here to debate it?

Over "here"? Since when does the internet
require an invitation?

>> >> Murderers, you associate with murderers
>> >> and you don't say boo, because you want
>> >> them to like you.
>> >
>> > I don't say boo because it's
>> > not the right forum for such
>> > discussions.
>>
>> Your words are hollow. You talk the
>> talk but you don't walk the walk.
>
> See? Damned if...etc.etc.

That's because you're a hypocrite.

>> >> > I also associate
>> >> > with vegans and vegetarians.
>> >> > Big deal.
>> >>
>> >> It is if your words mean anything, but
>> >> we both know that they don't, you're
>> >> a poseur, a pothead and a fake.
>> >
>> > When was the last time you
>> > drank an alcoholic beverage?
>> > If you are going to pick on my
>> > mild drug of choice, I'll need
>> > to know your mild drug status.
>>
>> Unless you are getting some crappy
>> homegrown, pot is not a mild drug
>> it is a powerful mind-altering substance.
>
> I smoke very good pot and
> when I compare it to my once
> every 2 years or so drinking,
> I feel that the drinking
> intoxicates me worse, and
> I don't even drink much or
> I get sick, so I'm talking 1
> or 2 glasses of wine or
> equivalent.

I don't believe you. You get ripped and
can't think straight, and have been doing
so for years. You are a classic case of
arrested development.

>> >> >> >> > Some of my
>> >> >> >> > friends are veg*n and some are
>> >> >> >> > not.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If you really believed that meat is
>> >> >> >> murder then you could not tolerate
>> >> >> >> meat-eating friends. Do you associate
>> >> >> >> with many murderers?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I can tolerate those meat eaters
>> >> >> > that tolerate me.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you have any friends that kill
>> >> >> people?
>> >> >
>> >> > Do soldiers count?
>> >>
>> >> Sure, are they murderers too? Do you
>> >> call your soldier friends murderers?
>> >
>> > If they have killed people then
>> > what do you think?
>>
>> I *know* that you would not say boo
>> to them.
>
> Why should they be any different
> than my meat eating friends in
> regards to how I interact with
> them.

They shouldn't. If you think they are
murderers you should at least shun them.


>> > Is there an
>> > exception?
>>
>> To what?
>
> To killings/murders/slaughters.
>
>> > Killing, murdering,
>> > slaughtering, whatever, it all
>> > boils down to the same thing.
>>
>> No it doesn't.
>
> Semantics.

Correct use of words is not semantics.
Incorrect use of words leads to faulty
thinking.

>> > The taking of a life for whatever
>> > reason, justified or not, avoidable
>> > or not.
>>
>> Is all the same? What nonsense. You
>> say later on that the killing that goes on
>> to support your lifestyle doesn't make
>> you feel guilty, that means that you must
>> see differences between different forms
>> of killing.
>
> Of course, but that doesn't
> mean I don't still call it killing.

We're talking about the word "murder"
not "killing".

>> >> >> > You think I should pick on
>> >> >> > my friends for having different
>> >> >> > diets than me?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For being MURDERERS!!!
>> >> >
>> >> > They are not doing the illegal
>> >> > types of murder, so why are
>> >> > you so freaked out?
>> >>
>> >> Murder is a legal term, and it is
>> >> always illegal, by definition.
>> >
>> > I'm not using the legal def. which
>> > restricts it's usage just to the
>> > human animal under specific
>> > conditions.
>>
>> There is no other meaning. You, and
>> other pro-vegans use the word improperly
>> for the purpose of insulting people and
>> stirring up emotions. All killing is not
>> murder, in fact very, very little of it is.
>
> If you take it as an insult,
> you should question yourself
> about whether you maybe
> agree just a little bit.

I agree that it's an insult to call someone
a murderer if that's what you mean. You
can call me a killer and I can't disagree.

>> >> > I find it
>> >> > all disturbing that the population
>> >> > as a whole is not death-free
>> >> > but realistically, what can you
>> >> > do?
>> >>
>> >> You find it disturbing that life isn't
>> >> like a Disney movie. You need to
>> >> get real.
>> >>
>> >> >> Does that word not mean anything
>> >> >> to you?
>> >>
>> >> Apparently not.
>> >
>> > What word? It's been snipped
>> > out.
>>
>> The word we've been talking about all
>> along, "murder", used improperly in the
>> context of the phrase "meat is murder".
>> [..]
>>
>> >> So you choose to ingratiate yourself
>> >> to murderers rather than speak out.
>> >> That's a typical vegan hypocrite.
>> >
>> > But a moment ago you were
>> > complaining that vegans
>> > were looking down their
>> > noses at you. Damned if you
>> > do and damned if you don't.
>>
>> There's a difference between looking
>> down your nose and speaking out.
>> Vegans look down their noses so they
>> can have this smarmy sense of super-
>> iority, but when it comes right down to
>> social situations, very have the guts to
>> stand behind these extreme statements.
>
> There's your double standard
> again. You don't want vegans
> to look down their noses at you
> but you do want them to confront
> your meat eating.

That's right, stop sneaking around
pretending to be ordinary people,
have the courage of your statements
and call people out for being the
brutal murderers you say they are.

>> >> >> > I used to be a meat eater and
>> >> >> > killed animals.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Really? I've never killed an animal.
>> >> >
>> >> > Who did you hire to kill your animals
>> >> > on your farm?
>> >>
>> >> You don't know them. What animals have
>> >> you killed?
>> >
>> > Mosquitoes.
>>
>> You said that you killed animals when
>> you were a meat eater, what did you
>> mean?
>
> Oh yeah. Whenever I ate an
> entire animal, or part of one,
> I was in on the killing of it. I
> had to for the finished product.
> When veggie though, I don't
> request any killings so if any
> happen through cds, at least
> it wasn't at my direct request
> to get the body.

It is implicit in your request that
the farmer will do what is necessary
to get the food you need to a
market in your neighbourhood.
You are a killer.

>> > How come you
>> > didn't do your own killing?
>>
>> I would rather leave it people with the
>> facilities and expertise to do it properly.
>
> So you sent them to a
> commercial hellhole for their
> last day(s).

No, that's your anti-meat propagandistic
fantasy.

>> > You are eating murdered
>> > animals. Murder for hire.
>>
>> So it's the act of eating them that bothers you,
>> not the actual killing? Apparently so, since your
>> hired hands kill animals also. It's odd that you
>> think that the use of a carcass of an animal has
>> moral importance.
>
> That's the avoidable death.

Not if you want the meat.

> The others aren't.

If you want the product you accept
what went into obtaining it. To do
otherwise is unethical.

>> >> >> I accept that animals die for me,
>> >> >> you hide your head in the sand.
>> >> >
>> >> > I accept it, but I don't have to like
>> >> > it. I can have my say, and who
>> >> > knows what influences it will
>> >> > have out there, us all discussing
>> >> > this.
>> >>
>> >> You don't like it, so you single out
>> >> other people to bear the burden of
>> >> your guilt.
>> >
>> > I don't feel guilty, so there's
>> > no burden.
>>
>> Let's get this straight...
>>
>> Animals die to support your comfy lifestyle,
>> you don't like it, but it doesn't make you feel
>> guilty. Yet, you wish to make me feel guilty
>> because animals die to support my lifestyle.
>> Why can't you see the hypocrisy?
>
> I'm not trying to make you
> personally feel guilty.

Why else would you call me a murderer?

> I'm just
> telling my beliefs on these
> veggie newsgroups. If we
> disagree and debate, well
> what do you expect? If you
> hang out in a veg group and
> you're not veg, of course
> you're going to feel out of
> place.

I don't feel out of place.

Found scrawled in the outhouse on Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:44:40 -0700, "Dutch" >
wrote:

>"Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> "Dutch" > wrote
>
> [..]
>
>>> >> The animals don't care how you
>>> >> categorize them. If you kill them,
>>> >> they're dead.
<snip for brevity>

>> I don't feel guilty, so there's
>> no burden.
>
>Let's get this straight...
>
>Animals die to support your comfy lifestyle,
>you don't like it, but it doesn't make you feel
>guilty. Yet, you wish to make me feel guilty
>because animals die to support my lifestyle.
>Why can't you see the hypocrisy?
>
>[..]
>
<sigh> She chooses not to see, Dutch. But I thought you put up a great effort to educate
the sadly uneducable.

Cheers 2 U,

Leslie
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
And I'm not sure about the former.".... Albert Einstein

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
>
> Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if
> they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients.
> However, a vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if it contains too
> many calories and not enough important nutrients.
> http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4777
>
> Those important nutrients include B12, zinc, and iron.
http://www.ecologos.org/B-12.htm
http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm

Laurie

Laurie wrote:

> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if
>>they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients.
>>However, a vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if it contains too
>>many calories and not enough important nutrients.
>>http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4777
>>
>>Those important nutrients include B12, zinc, and iron.
>
> http://www.ecologos.org/B-12.htm
> http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm

Pseudo-scientific hogwash.