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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
PJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Atkins to Vegan a bit painful?

For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates and ate a lot of
protein - protein bars, chicken, fish, occasionally red meat. I noted a
drastic improvement in my energy level, sense of well-being and
concentration. Even without the extra carbs I had no problem at all keeping
up with my off-season athletics... given my success I decided to read more
about nutrition and picked up a book called The China Study. I read through
it and was floored. A mountain of seemingly irrefutable evidence implicates
animal protein in the promotion of all of the terrible modern diseases known
to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
going vegan.

I bought whole grain pitas, smart dogs, beans, spinach, broccoli, carrots,
strawberries, tofu, nuts, sunflower seeds, pears, bananas, etc., and vowed
to not touch anything with casein in it, even the protein bars that I would
normally eat for breakfast. Within 24 hours my resolve would already start
to be tested - I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
during the day though falling asleep at night was suddenly difficult.
Headaches would get worse exercising, and I'd tire out too soon. I couldn't
concentrate. What the heck - was I getting the flu? 5 days later I got dizzy
and said that's enough, went out for lots of sushi and felt better the next
day. I found the more animal protein I consumed (especially milk), the
better I felt. Or was it the stopping of consumption of what I had been
eating that helped??

Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition from
Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly? I've looked on the web and found
little in the way of information for my particular situation other than ways
to Be Careful which I tried to follow. I post here in hopes someone can
point me to resources that my shed some light on my particular averse
reaction (meat dependence? soy allergy?) and what it means.

PJ6


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"PJ" > wrote in message
news:HA9ne.7527$Fb.6082@trndny07...
> For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates and ate a lot of
> protein - protein bars, chicken, fish, occasionally red meat. I noted a
> drastic improvement in my energy level, sense of well-being and
> concentration. Even without the extra carbs I had no problem at all

keeping
> up with my off-season athletics... given my success I decided to read more
> about nutrition and picked up a book called The China Study. I read

through
> it and was floored. A mountain of seemingly irrefutable evidence

implicates
> animal protein in the promotion of all of the terrible modern diseases

known
> to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
> going vegan.
>
> I bought whole grain pitas, smart dogs, beans, spinach, broccoli, carrots,
> strawberries, tofu, nuts, sunflower seeds, pears, bananas, etc., and vowed
> to not touch anything with casein in it, even the protein bars that I

would
> normally eat for breakfast. Within 24 hours my resolve would already start
> to be tested - I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
> repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
> during the day though falling asleep at night was suddenly difficult.
> Headaches would get worse exercising, and I'd tire out too soon. I

couldn't
> concentrate. What the heck - was I getting the flu? 5 days later I got

dizzy
> and said that's enough, went out for lots of sushi and felt better the

next
> day. I found the more animal protein I consumed (especially milk), the
> better I felt. Or was it the stopping of consumption of what I had been
> eating that helped??
>
> Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
> enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
> digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
> it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition

from
> Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly? I've looked on the web and found
> little in the way of information for my particular situation other than

ways
> to Be Careful which I tried to follow. I post here in hopes someone can
> point me to resources that my shed some light on my particular averse
> reaction (meat dependence? soy allergy?) and what it means.
>
> PJ6


Maybe you should check with
a doctor for food allergies, or
you might just be one of those
few people who find they fail
to thrive on a vegan diet. It's
a personal thing to decide
what diet is healthiest for you,
and non-allergenic. Soy is a
good guess for allergies. I've
read that a lot of people have
that allergy.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
sTeve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:

The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
drew conclusions about it based on their political views.

Note that they concluded that even though the median age of death was
relatively low, they ascribed that to other factors besides their diet
(where I come from that's called bad science). Also, the death rate is
relatively high. The people are dieing from DIFFERENT diseases than
those of us in the US. That's supposed to make it OK?

I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
thrive on a vegetarian based diet.

best,

Steve

>For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates and ate a lot of
>protein - protein bars, chicken, fish, occasionally red meat. I noted a
>drastic improvement in my energy level, sense of well-being and
>concentration. Even without the extra carbs I had no problem at all keeping
>up with my off-season athletics... given my success I decided to read more
>about nutrition and picked up a book called The China Study. I read through
>it and was floored. A mountain of seemingly irrefutable evidence implicates
>animal protein in the promotion of all of the terrible modern diseases known
>to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
>going vegan.
>
>I bought whole grain pitas, smart dogs, beans, spinach, broccoli, carrots,
>strawberries, tofu, nuts, sunflower seeds, pears, bananas, etc., and vowed
>to not touch anything with casein in it, even the protein bars that I would
>normally eat for breakfast. Within 24 hours my resolve would already start
>to be tested - I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
>repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
>during the day though falling asleep at night was suddenly difficult.
>Headaches would get worse exercising, and I'd tire out too soon. I couldn't
>concentrate. What the heck - was I getting the flu? 5 days later I got dizzy
>and said that's enough, went out for lots of sushi and felt better the next
>day. I found the more animal protein I consumed (especially milk), the
>better I felt. Or was it the stopping of consumption of what I had been
>eating that helped??
>
>Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
>enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
>digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
>it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition from
>Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly? I've looked on the web and found
>little in the way of information for my particular situation other than ways
>to Be Careful which I tried to follow. I post here in hopes someone can
>point me to resources that my shed some light on my particular averse
>reaction (meat dependence? soy allergy?) and what it means.
>
>PJ6
>


  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

PJ wrote:
> For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates and ate a lot of
> protein - protein bars, chicken, fish, occasionally red meat. I noted a
> drastic improvement in my energy level, sense of well-being and
> concentration.


People often notice those things on fad diets like Atkins or raw
foodism, eventhough they are polar opposites. People today fill up on
too many white flour products, calories from sweeteners, and bad oils.

These diets eliminate those things and that is my guess why people feel
better for a short time after starting them.


> to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
> going vegan.


<snip>
>
> Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
> enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
> digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
> it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition from
> Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly?


Yes. You went overnight from two very different diets. Atkins style
diets have almost no fiber and vegan diets have a tremendous amount of
fiber. There are other issues too. Your body needs time to adjust.

If you are still interested start by drinking more water ( 2 qts a day
at least ) and eating more vegetables. Then work new foods into your
diet as it feels comfortable.

Vegan Outreach has a stellar starter kit, for when you are ready.

Vegan Outreach will mail you a very nice printed copy for free. You can
also download a pdf version for free or read it on the web for free.

It has a better recipe section than most starter kits that I have seen.
Best of all it also has an up to date, complete, easy to understand,
and brief nutrition section by Jack Norris, a vegan Registered Dietician.

The two best things you can do to make your commitment to it last is to
learn good nutrition and to learn to cook a small set of recipes you
really like.

Here is the url:
http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack

Vegan Outreach also hosts a web site of health articles
for people on plant based diets:

http://www.veganhealth.org

Be careful of who you take nutrition advice from on the web.

There are a number of web mavens who sound as if they know what
they are talking about and they really don't.

Learn to ask people how they know what they know.

Animal Rights sites, even some of the more well known names are known
for giving out of date or incomplete information on vegetarian nutrition.

If you are interested in more information I have articles and
descriptions of books by well known, well respected, and well
credentialed authorities on my web site at:

http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

HTH



--

Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sTeve wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:
>
> The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
> observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
> drew conclusions about it based on their political views.


Yah! Who are you going to believe an anonymous guy on the internet
whose credentials you don't know or someone who has been research
scientist for about half a century and who finished one of the largest
nutrition studies in history, published in a book, with pages of citations?


>
> I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
> such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
> thrive on a vegetarian based diet.


I encourage the original poster to form his own opinion about this
tidbit. The idea that people need different foods for different blood
types never had any proof and is debunked all over the place. I
encourage the original poster to research the issue if he is interested.



--

Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
PJ6
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The author didn't seem particularly politically motivated to me. No mention
of animal rights. He (like I) started mostly meat-eating. Though I will
admit the book is a bit overbearingly repetitive as if readers need to have
their hands held to be convinced; a book half in length would have been more
than sufficient. Your rebuttal is probably valid for some of The China
Study's content, but I still find much of the data compelling enough to
either change my diet, or, if I abandon the book's conclusions, move to
Japan.

My blood type is AB. I don't know what that means in terms of nutrition
exactly... but I may be just developing a problem that my change in diet
exacerbated. When I went veggie, my bowel looked healthy and brown. I go
back to meat to feel better, and no matter what I eat it's now green and
looks like a loose collection of tiny dry scales. Bright green on the
tissue - I would guess that I'm suddenly passing large quantities of bile.
Maybe I should see a doctor and shelf my vegan aspirations for the moment.

PJ6

"sTeve" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:
>
> The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
> observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
> drew conclusions about it based on their political views.
>
> Note that they concluded that even though the median age of death was
> relatively low, they ascribed that to other factors besides their diet
> (where I come from that's called bad science). Also, the death rate is
> relatively high. The people are dieing from DIFFERENT diseases than
> those of us in the US. That's supposed to make it OK?
>
> I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
> such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
> thrive on a vegetarian based diet.
>
> best,
>
> Steve



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
PJ6
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> People often notice those things on fad diets like Atkins or raw
> foodism, eventhough they are polar opposites. People today fill up on
> too many white flour products, calories from sweeteners, and bad oils.
>
> These diets eliminate those things and that is my guess why people feel
> better for a short time after starting them.


That makes sense.

> Yes. You went overnight from two very different diets. Atkins style
> diets have almost no fiber and vegan diets have a tremendous amount of
> fiber. There are other issues too. Your body needs time to adjust.


OK.

> If you are still interested start by drinking more water ( 2 qts a day
> at least ) and eating more vegetables. Then work new foods into your
> diet as it feels comfortable. <...lots of good info snipped...>


I'll try again after I'm convinced my digestive system is back to normal,
and then much more slowly. Thanks for the info!

Man. I guess trying to change overnight *was* kind of dumb.

PJ6


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
equinox
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steve > wrote:

> > Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
> > enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
> > digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
> > it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition from
> > Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly?

>
> Yes. You went overnight from two very different diets. Atkins style
> diets have almost no fiber and vegan diets have a tremendous amount of
> fiber. There are other issues too. Your body needs time to adjust.


Yes, most likely the same would have happened if a vegan would change
his / her way of eating towards 100% Atkins overnight. The body is just
not used to the foods.
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default



equinox wrote:
> Steve > wrote:
>
>
>>>Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
>>>enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
>>>digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
>>>it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition from
>>>Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly?

>>
>>Yes. You went overnight from two very different diets. Atkins style
>>diets have almost no fiber and vegan diets have a tremendous amount of
>>fiber. There are other issues too. Your body needs time to adjust.

>
>
> Yes, most likely the same would have happened if a vegan would change
> his / her way of eating towards 100% Atkins overnight. The body is just
> not used to the foods.

I went vegan overnight. Never looked back and never had any problems.

One thing that you should consider is how you eat. That means eat fruit
first, let it digest. Eat high proteins separately. And don't forget
the need for exercise!
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

PJ6 wrote:
> Though I will
> admit the book is a bit overbearingly repetitive as if readers need to have
> their hands held to be convinced; a book half in length would have been more
> than sufficient.


Oh got I hate that kind of thing. I just finished reading a book on
training dogs and I felt it could have been 1/3 of its size without any
loss in message.

--

Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

PJ6 wrote:
>>If you are still interested start by drinking more water ( 2 qts a day
>>at least ) and eating more vegetables. Then work new foods into your
>>diet as it feels comfortable. <...lots of good info snipped...>

>
>
> I'll try again after I'm convinced my digestive system is back to normal,
> and then much more slowly. Thanks for the info!


In your original post it also sounded like you tried many different
types of foods at once. The issue of potential allergies brought up
somebody else is a possibility. If you convert over slowly that will
also give you the chance to try new foods one at a time and see how they
agree with you.
--

Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
sTeve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:19:08 GMT, "PJ6" > wrote:

Blood type science, regardless of what the other 'Steve' said, is
based on much more scientific grounding than the statistical science
which drives the conclusions of the China Project.

Generally, blood type AB's can do quite well as vegetarians, but they
have to be specific about which foods are eaten. For example, corn
should be avoided, but barley is most welcome. Many meats (chicken,
pork, beef) should be avoided

Nobody on the internet is qualified to diagnosis what is happening via
your stools, but it is a clear indication that something is not good
in your digestive system, and the key to that is to understand how the
foods you are choosing affect the system. In most cases, it is not a
direct correlation of "eat this, feel that" - the reactions sometimes
take days, weeks, or months to manifest, after chronic long term
exposure to an offending food molecule.

best,

Steve

>The author didn't seem particularly politically motivated to me. No mention
>of animal rights. He (like I) started mostly meat-eating. Though I will
>admit the book is a bit overbearingly repetitive as if readers need to have
>their hands held to be convinced; a book half in length would have been more
>than sufficient. Your rebuttal is probably valid for some of The China
>Study's content, but I still find much of the data compelling enough to
>either change my diet, or, if I abandon the book's conclusions, move to
>Japan.
>
>My blood type is AB. I don't know what that means in terms of nutrition
>exactly... but I may be just developing a problem that my change in diet
>exacerbated. When I went veggie, my bowel looked healthy and brown. I go
>back to meat to feel better, and no matter what I eat it's now green and
>looks like a loose collection of tiny dry scales. Bright green on the
>tissue - I would guess that I'm suddenly passing large quantities of bile.
>Maybe I should see a doctor and shelf my vegan aspirations for the moment.
>
>PJ6
>
>"sTeve" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:
>>
>> The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
>> observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
>> drew conclusions about it based on their political views.
>>
>> Note that they concluded that even though the median age of death was
>> relatively low, they ascribed that to other factors besides their diet
>> (where I come from that's called bad science). Also, the death rate is
>> relatively high. The people are dieing from DIFFERENT diseases than
>> those of us in the US. That's supposed to make it OK?
>>
>> I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
>> such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
>> thrive on a vegetarian based diet.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Steve

>


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
sTeve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:39:54 -0400, Steve
> wrote:

>sTeve wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:
>>
>> The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
>> observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
>> drew conclusions about it based on their political views.

>
>Yah! Who are you going to believe an anonymous guy on the internet
>whose credentials you don't know or someone who has been research
>scientist for about half a century and who finished one of the largest
>nutrition studies in history, published in a book, with pages of citations?
>

Sorry, I'm not anonymous: you can reply to this e-mail msg and reach
me quite easily.

As far as credentials, I have no medical or nutritional training. I do
have an incurable, potentially fatal auto-immune disease (pemphigus)
that I learned how to treat via food choice based on my biology, not
politics or emotions, or what is 'supposed to be healthy for me'

(hint: search for pemphigus and shapiro on the web and you can figure
out exactly who I am...)

>
>> I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
>> such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
>> thrive on a vegetarian based diet.

>
>I encourage the original poster to form his own opinion about this
>tidbit. The idea that people need different foods for different blood
>types never had any proof and is debunked all over the place. I
>encourage the original poster to research the issue if he is interested.


Correct, this is information to be shared, not advice. However, there
is considerable 'proof' of blood type theory, and every theory is
'debunked' somewhere. That is what makes the concept of nutrition so
interesting, for every truth there appears to be an equal and opposite
truth. D'Adamo's work (published in a book) also has citations (as
does T. Colin Campbell's work.


best,

steve
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

PJ wrote:
> For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates


Why?

> concentration. Even without the extra carbs I had no problem at all keeping
> up with my off-season athletics... given my success I decided to read more
> about nutrition and picked up a book called The China Study. I read through
> it and was floored. A mountain of seemingly irrefutable


It's refutable.

> evidence implicates
> animal protein in the promotion of all of the terrible modern diseases known
> to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
> going vegan.


Did you investigate this "seemingly irrefutable evidence" to see if it
was actually true or filled with half-truths (which are full lies)?

<...>
> Obviously I did something wrong,


Yes, you leaped from one bandwagon to the other. Better not to get on
one at all.
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Scented Nectar wrote:
> "PJ" > wrote in message
> news:HA9ne.7527$Fb.6082@trndny07...
>
>>For the last few months I cut back on carbohydrates and ate a lot of
>>protein - protein bars, chicken, fish, occasionally red meat. I noted a
>>drastic improvement in my energy level, sense of well-being and
>>concentration. Even without the extra carbs I had no problem at all

>
> keeping
>
>>up with my off-season athletics... given my success I decided to read more
>>about nutrition and picked up a book called The China Study. I read

>
> through
>
>>it and was floored. A mountain of seemingly irrefutable evidence

>
> implicates
>
>>animal protein in the promotion of all of the terrible modern diseases

>
> known
>
>>to the West: cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I decided to have a crack at
>>going vegan.
>>
>>I bought whole grain pitas, smart dogs, beans, spinach, broccoli, carrots,
>>strawberries, tofu, nuts, sunflower seeds, pears, bananas, etc., and vowed
>>to not touch anything with casein in it, even the protein bars that I

>
> would
>
>>normally eat for breakfast. Within 24 hours my resolve would already start
>>to be tested - I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
>>repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
>>during the day though falling asleep at night was suddenly difficult.
>>Headaches would get worse exercising, and I'd tire out too soon. I

>
> couldn't
>
>>concentrate. What the heck - was I getting the flu? 5 days later I got

>
> dizzy
>
>>and said that's enough, went out for lots of sushi and felt better the

>
> next
>
>>day. I found the more animal protein I consumed (especially milk), the
>>better I felt. Or was it the stopping of consumption of what I had been
>>eating that helped??
>>
>>Obviously I did something wrong, though considering the care I took to eat
>>enough different plant proteins I'm not sure what. I even popped some
>>digestive enzymes (which worked) to make sure I could take the soy since
>>it's given me stomach aches in the past. Could it be that a transition

>
> from
>
>>Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly? I've looked on the web and found
>>little in the way of information for my particular situation other than

>
> ways
>
>>to Be Careful which I tried to follow. I post here in hopes someone can
>>point me to resources that my shed some light on my particular averse
>>reaction (meat dependence? soy allergy?) and what it means.
>>
>>PJ6

>
>
> Maybe you should check with
> a doctor for food allergies,


Or a specialist in eating disorders. Those are two extremes which defy
common sense.

> or
> you might just be one of those
> few


MANY

> people who find they fail
> to thrive on a vegan diet.


There is no "vegan" diet. Veganism is not about food, it's about animal
rights and a lifestyle which embraces that peculiar philosophy.

> It's a personal thing to decide
> what diet is healthiest for you,


Wrong. There are objective standards. The health aspect of any diet
should be measured objectively, not "personally," subjectively.

> and non-allergenic. Soy is a
> good guess for allergies. I've
> read that a lot of people have
> that allergy.


You've also repeated a lot of BS you've read (or "researched") which has
been shown false. So let's do this one.

Soy protein has been rated 11th among foods in terms of
allergenicity, although milk and eggs are also considered very
allergenic foods (Wraith & Young, 1979). In healthy,
non-allergic children, soy is generally less allergenic than
cow's milk. The incidence of cow's milk allergy ranges from 0.3
to 7.5% among infants. Allergy to soy is seen in 0.5% or less of
this population (Eastham, 1989). Soy allergy is uncommon among
adults.
http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl...d=5&faq_id=917

Half a percent or less is NOT a lot of people, Skanky, and that's if it
affects children. Soy allergy is *UNCOMMON* among adults. Can you
comprehend that, you twit?


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Donna
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sTeve wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:39:54 -0400, Steve
> > wrote:
>
>
>>sTeve wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:04:07 GMT, "PJ" > wrote:
>>>
>>>The China Study is inferential - that is, they examined the diets,
>>>observed which diseases the people got, their general health; and then
>>>drew conclusions about it based on their political views.

>>
>>Yah! Who are you going to believe an anonymous guy on the internet
>>whose credentials you don't know or someone who has been research
>>scientist for about half a century and who finished one of the largest
>>nutrition studies in history, published in a book, with pages of citations?
>>

>
> Sorry, I'm not anonymous: you can reply to this e-mail msg and reach
> me quite easily.
>
> As far as credentials, I have no medical or nutritional training. I do
> have an incurable, potentially fatal auto-immune disease (pemphigus)
> that I learned how to treat via food choice based on my biology, not
> politics or emotions, or what is 'supposed to be healthy for me'
>
> (hint: search for pemphigus and shapiro on the web and you can figure
> out exactly who I am...)
>
>
>>>I suspect, based on your story, that your blood type is O or B; and as
>>>such, your genetics are ill suited toward enabling you the ability to
>>>thrive on a vegetarian based diet.


At least two people have had a go at this...
http://www.vegsource.com/articles/blood_hype.htm
>>
>>I encourage the original poster to form his own opinion about this
>>tidbit. The idea that people need different foods for different blood
>>types never had any proof and is debunked all over the place. I
>>encourage the original poster to research the issue if he is interested.

>
>
> Correct, this is information to be shared, not advice. However, there
> is considerable 'proof' of blood type theory, and every theory is
> 'debunked' somewhere. That is what makes the concept of nutrition so
> interesting, for every truth there appears to be an equal and opposite
> truth. D'Adamo's work (published in a book) also has citations (as
> does T. Colin Campbell's work.
>

Could you please do some reading on Falsifiability next courtesy of the
late great Karl Popper?

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
sTeve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:53:14 +0930, Donna >
wrote:


>
>At least two people have had a go at this...
>http://www.vegsource.com/articles/blood_hype.htm
>>>

Actually, there are many more critisisms of the blood type theory than
the one on Vegsource. This one, by McMahon & Williams is the most
easy to correct..
>>

>Could you please do some reading on Falsifiability next courtesy of the
>late great Karl Popper?


Done.

best wishes,

Steve

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Laurie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"PJ" > wrote in message
news:HA9ne.7527$Fb.6082@trndny07...
> Within 24 hours my resolve would already start
> to be tested - I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
> repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
> during the day though falling asleep at night was suddenly difficult.
> Headaches would get worse exercising, and I'd tire out too soon. I
> couldn't
> concentrate. What the heck - was I getting the flu? 5 days later I got
> dizzy
> and said that's enough, went out for lots of sushi and felt better the
> next
> day. I found the more animal protein I consumed (especially milk), the
> better I felt. Or was it the stopping of consumption of what I had been
> eating that helped??
>Could it be that a transition from Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly?

Good guess; the high-protein diet is -extremely- toxic, and you got hit
with 'cleansing reactions' a bit more intense than you'd like. The
re-introduction of animal protein stopped the cleansings, the blood cleared
out, and you felt better. Moving too quickly with dietary reform while not
knowing how to handle the cleansing reactions is a common error, as most
diet books and diet gurus ignore this issue.
Here's how to control them on day-by-day basis and make the transition
successfully.
http://www.ecologos.org/cleansing.htm
I knew a muscle-jock that HAD to eat his cheeseburgers every two hours
or he would get a headache. Of course, he attributed that to "being hungry"
not his severe toxicity.

Laurie





  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Laurie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steve" > wrote in message
...

> People often notice those things on fad diets like Atkins or raw foodism,
> ...

Our species, like all species of Life on this planet EVOLVED on uncooked
food, and there is no evidence that we ever "adapted" to cooked food.

Laurie


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Spread deMocracy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

When I experienced something similar to what you described, I called my
experience "withdrawal" symptoms. I had read the book, "Sugar Blues" a few
years back and was so disgusted with the sugar trade and my own years of
naiveté that I immediately suspended all foods with sugars, fructose,
variations of sweeteners. That was on a Sunday. Friday of that week I was
in bed fighting the worst case of the "flu" that I ever had. On Saturday of
my first recovery weekend, I finished another book but on Chinese
philosophy in which it was stated that there is a strong relationship
between the yin, (sweet), foods and the need/craving for yang, (meats),
that I decided to try giving up meats. It was very easy to do so. But by
Friday of that second week I was suffering from the "flu" again. After
recovering, in the weeks that followed, I noticed my energy had tripled, my
weight was down so significantly, and, since I had already 'cured myself" by
going through "withdrawal", I vowed to remain a sugarless-vegan for the
rest of my life.

"PJ" > wrote in message
[SNIP] I felt feverish and hot all over (even though a thermometer
repeatedly read normal), my head ached and throbbed hotly. I felt tired
[SNIP] was I getting the flu?




  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:
<...>
>>Could it be that a transition from Atkins to Vegan should be done slowly?

>
> Good guess;


Shouldn't transitions between ANY diets be gradual, dummy?

> the high-protein diet is -extremely- toxic,


Ipse dixit. Any extreme diet can have "toxic" effects. That includes
your fruity diet.

> and you got hit
> with 'cleansing reactions' a bit more intense than you'd like.


Psychosomatic complaints.

> The re-introduction of animal protein stopped the cleansings, the blood cleared
> out, and you felt better.


Ipse dixit. He probably felt better just from having more fiber in his diet.

> Moving too quickly with dietary reform


Exactly.

> I knew a muscle-jock


How long did you date him?

> that HAD to eat his cheeseburgers every two hours
> or he would get a headache. Of course, he attributed that to "being hungry"
> not his severe toxicity.


You had no knowledge of his blood chemistry, so you've know idea if he
had any diet-related toxemia.
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Laurie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...

> Shouldn't transitions between ANY diets be gradual, dummy?

Not necessary, unless the previous is extremely toxic. E.g. the
'transition' from vegetarian to vegan is easy.
Name-calling only proves your juvenile stagnation.

>> the high-protein diet is -extremely- toxic,

> Any extreme diet can have "toxic" effects. That includes your fruity diet.

I recommend our biologically-correct diet, the one our species evolved
on. It should be obvious that our natural diet is the most healthful,
except perhaps to you.

>> and you got hit with 'cleansing reactions' a bit more intense than you'd
>> like.

> Psychosomatic complaints.

You clearly have NO personal experience with dietary reform, or you
would not make such an idiotic claim. How can pounds of excreted mucus be
"psychosomatic"?

>> The re-introduction of animal protein stopped the cleansings, the blood
>> cleared out, and you felt better.

> He probably felt better just from having more fiber in his diet.

There is NO dietary "fiber" in meats.
Are you really that ignorant of basic nutritional facts?
Of course you are; you demonstrate it constantly.

>> that HAD to eat his cheeseburgers every two hours or he would get a
>> headache. Of course, he attributed that to "being hungry" not his severe
>> toxicity.

> You had no knowledge of his blood chemistry, so you've know idea if he had
> any diet-related toxemia.

The stench of human necrophages' sweat, urine, and feces is mute, but
powerful, evidence of "diet-related toxemia"; those delightful odors are due
to toxic amine compounds, like indole, skatole, cadaverine, and putrescine
that exist in the colon, as bacterial waste products, because the animal
proteins are not digested and assimilated properly. Such compounds are
absorbed into the blood stream and disrupt many biological processes.

Laurie



  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Chris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, says...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Shouldn't transitions between ANY diets be gradual, dummy?

> Not necessary, unless the previous is extremely toxic. E.g. the
> 'transition' from vegetarian to vegan is easy.
> Name-calling only proves your juvenile stagnation.
>
> >> the high-protein diet is -extremely- toxic,

> > Any extreme diet can have "toxic" effects. That includes your fruity diet.

> I recommend our biologically-correct diet, the one our species evolved
> on. It should be obvious that our natural diet is the most healthful,
> except perhaps to you.
>
> >> and you got hit with 'cleansing reactions' a bit more intense than you'd
> >> like.

> > Psychosomatic complaints.

> You clearly have NO personal experience with dietary reform, or you
> would not make such an idiotic claim. How can pounds of excreted mucus be
> "psychosomatic"?
>
> >> The re-introduction of animal protein stopped the cleansings, the blood
> >> cleared out, and you felt better.

> > He probably felt better just from having more fiber in his diet.

> There is NO dietary "fiber" in meats.
> Are you really that ignorant of basic nutritional facts?
> Of course you are; you demonstrate it constantly.
>
> >> that HAD to eat his cheeseburgers every two hours or he would get a
> >> headache. Of course, he attributed that to "being hungry" not his severe
> >> toxicity.

> > You had no knowledge of his blood chemistry, so you've know idea if he had
> > any diet-related toxemia.

> The stench of human necrophages' sweat, urine, and feces is mute, but
> powerful, evidence of "diet-related toxemia"; those delightful odors are due
> to toxic amine compounds, like indole, skatole, cadaverine, and putrescine
> that exist in the colon, as bacterial waste products, because the animal
> proteins are not digested and assimilated properly. Such compounds are
> absorbed into the blood stream and disrupt many biological processes.
>
> Laurie
>
>
>
>

Eat a very rare steak with the blood running at each meal. It'll make a
man out of ya!!
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:
>>Shouldn't transitions between ANY diets be gradual, dummy?

>
> Not necessary, unless the previous is extremely toxic.


Most people don't eat toxins, you pseudoscience-peddling dolt.

>>>and you got hit with 'cleansing reactions' a bit more intense than you'd
>>>like.

>>
>>Psychosomatic complaints.

>
> You clearly have NO personal experience with dietary reform, or you
> would not make such an idiotic claim. How can pounds of excreted mucus be
> "psychosomatic"?


Stop peddling this bullshit about "pounds of excreted mucus" or pounds
of anything else, Larry. Next time just tell us all about John Wayne's
impacted colon.
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